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#152 Jan 09 2014 at 12:10 PM Rating: Decent
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Catwho wrote:
Thayos wrote:
Catwho... I live in Seattle. I imagine we have some good tech infrastructure here. Even though I am far from Montreal, would that maybe be why I have much less lag than some people who live closer?




I know a lot of cable ISPs end up getting routed through Toronto - seems only AT&T DSL/Uverse ignores it.

Edited, Jan 9th 2014 12:28pm by Catwho


I am not sure what you mean by that.. Through Toronto.. isn't SE servers in Toronto?
I have AT&T now.. They bought fiber a few block away. I had cable the only other choice but it was getting so congested in the afternoons it was sooooooo slow.

Edited, Jan 9th 2014 1:11pm by Nashred
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#153 Jan 09 2014 at 12:14 PM Rating: Good
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Nashred wrote:
Catwho wrote:
Thayos wrote:
Catwho... I live in Seattle. I imagine we have some good tech infrastructure here. Even though I am far from Montreal, would that maybe be why I have much less lag than some people who live closer?




I know a lot of cable ISPs end up getting routed through Toronto - seems only AT&T DSL/Uverse ignores it.

Edited, Jan 9th 2014 12:28pm by Catwho


I am not sure what you mean by that.. Through Toronto.. isn't SE servers in Toronto?
I have AT&T now.. They bought fiber a few block away. I had cable the only other choice but it was getting so congested in the afternoons it was sooooooo slow.

Edited, Jan 9th 2014 1:11pm by Nashred



Pretty sure the NA data centres are in Montreal.
#154 Jan 09 2014 at 12:19 PM Rating: Decent
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Canadensis wrote:
Nashred wrote:
Catwho wrote:
Thayos wrote:
Catwho... I live in Seattle. I imagine we have some good tech infrastructure here. Even though I am far from Montreal, would that maybe be why I have much less lag than some people who live closer?




I know a lot of cable ISPs end up getting routed through Toronto - seems only AT&T DSL/Uverse ignores it.

Edited, Jan 9th 2014 12:28pm by Catwho


I am not sure what you mean by that.. Through Toronto.. isn't SE servers in Toronto?
I have AT&T now.. They bought fiber a few block away. I had cable the only other choice but it was getting so congested in the afternoons it was sooooooo slow.

Edited, Jan 9th 2014 1:11pm by Nashred



Pretty sure the NA data centres are in Montreal.



Ack yea I know that lol.... I always get those two cites mixed up..

And I flew to Montreal that had a connection in Toronto...

Edited, Jan 9th 2014 1:21pm by Nashred
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#155 Jan 09 2014 at 12:49 PM Rating: Excellent
I'm also on Frontier FIOS fiber optic... pretty sure my speed is just 15mbps though.
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#156 Jan 09 2014 at 1:02 PM Rating: Good
Thayos wrote:
I'm also on Frontier FIOS fiber optic... pretty sure my speed is just 15mbps though.


I pay for "Up to 50 mb/s," but rarely reach that type of connection. I don't have lag issues except for when I am crafting, though.
#157 Jan 09 2014 at 1:15 PM Rating: Decent
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Thayos wrote:
I'm also on Frontier FIOS fiber optic... pretty sure my speed is just 15mbps though.


Fiber is nice... and 15 is plenty down.. Where most dsl or cable companies get you is on upload speed.. Most people just download so the average person that is fine having slower upload speeds but gamers require higher upload speeds.

Edited, Jan 9th 2014 2:18pm by Nashred
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#158 Jan 09 2014 at 5:25 PM Rating: Decent
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Thayos wrote:
Damn Fell, I am sorry to hear that. :(

I am no tech expert like Catwho... If lag is that consistent for a small group of players but not others, is there a chance that could be caused by SE servers, or is that a home ISP issue, or a combination of the two?

I generally have only about 10 mins a day when my home Internet gets slow and my game performance suffers, but I have been able to conclude that my home Internet is the problem there.

Felinus, we will beat Titan tonight or this weekend!


I had initially thought of that. Then I realized this is not affecting anything else I do. I play other games online including games like battlefield 4, I also stream HD video and never have any issues. People say maybe Verizon is throttling connection. If that was the case why would this only occurs with FF and only since 2.1 went live. I have done trace route and am not seeing any issues. Generally jumps are < 40-50ms. The last couple hops which appear to be datacenter can be slower but are not higher than 160ms. I don't know much about computers, but from what I have read this seems to be within the normal ranges. Of course the trace is only until Sargantas. No clue what is happening in the Duty servers, which is primarily where most of the problems are. Yes ill have some minor issue in the cities, but nothing like the Duty Finders.

The screen will literally freeze in place for 3-5 seconds at times, then fast forward to catch up. Other times I will be well outside the danger zone and still drop dead, with my corpse well outside the danger zone.

You ran with me and saw I don't die a lot from stupid crap on titan. Generally I was one of the last standing. During our run I had this occur 1 time and I got shot off the edge. I didn't say anything because it wasn't a huge issue. It was a pretty smooth night for me and one death was not a biggie. Though if you are on when I am more often, you would see me complaining about this very thing a lot.
#159 Jan 09 2014 at 5:31 PM Rating: Good
160 ms for a single ping is actually pretty bad. Cumulative it's not bad, but for one hop it's not good at all.

For example, your ping to any given Google data center is usually 10 ms or less.

Edited, Jan 9th 2014 6:31pm by Catwho
#160 Jan 09 2014 at 6:52 PM Rating: Good
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Catwho wrote:
For example, your ping to any given Google data center is usually 10 ms or less.


Google DNS ftw!
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Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#161 Jan 09 2014 at 7:37 PM Rating: Decent
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I guess you right. I just ran traceroute to a google mail server and beginning ping were <1ms. Even the last couple were in the 2-3ms range. Why would that be such a huge difference? As I said I do not know much about computers.
#162 Jan 09 2014 at 9:37 PM Rating: Excellent
Couple things.

Google has more than one data center. They have about a dozen in the US alone. So when you ping Google, you ping the closest one. They did it that way so that no one would ever have a slow search speed.

Google also has the $$$ to ensure they've got a good ISP connection to the backbones. They pay for the best.

What Google spends on network equipment, they can skimp out on server power. Their servers are actually white boxes made with off the shelf hardware. SE had to spend a lot of their infrastructure budget on high end servers, which is less money they can spend on top of the line networking equipment. That's what bit them on the *** when the game launched. Just because your servers cost more doesn't mean you can skimp on your routers and switches.
#163 Jan 09 2014 at 9:53 PM Rating: Good
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Catwho wrote:
Google has more than one data center. They have about a dozen in the US alone. So when you ping Google, you ping the closest one. They did it that way so that no one would ever have a slow search speed.


Google... making people smarter in 0.18 secondsâ„¢ Smiley: lol
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Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#164 Jan 09 2014 at 11:47 PM Rating: Good
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Catwho wrote:
In the case of SoCal, it's probably the way that the local ISPs are routed through a particularly busy backbone.

I have very little lag where I am because I'm one hop away from Atlanta, which has a backbone that runs directly to Montreal, and the SE data center is one hop away from that. The issue is that the more big cities there are before you and your final destination, the more backbones you'll pass through. Someone out in SoCal has to hop up the coast a few times, then go through Phoenix or Salt Lake, then Minneapolis or Chicago, then New York, and only then do they get near Montreal. Depending on the ISP there might be more or fewer hops, but it boils down to lots of milliseconds adding up to half second delays each way.

This is also why satellite connections are the worst for video games, because their ping times are pretty horrible. But their packet bandwidth is huge so they're great for one way streaming. Cable internet sits in the middle for Quality of Service and bandwidth, and DSL tends to have the best QoS handling at the cost of smaller pipes, because phone lines themselves have to have good QoS or else you'll have scratchy sound.


I see. I didn't know we were so close to the servers, Internet traffic-wise. From Florida my connection has almost always been stable. The only place I ever experience this animation lag that people speak of is on turn 1 ADS laser on Monday nights when the coil servers are most likely congested. I would say about 60% of my FC plays from California (and maybe 40% from SoCal) and have heard really bad stories about lag.

But now it makes a little more sense why this would be the case. Any idea why they didn't just stick the data centers in the U.S. or why they don't have two data centers in the U.S. besides cost? I mean, I feel like it's the opposite of what Blizzard did in the old Starcraft 1/Diablo 1 and 2 days. They had US East and US West servers for almost all their early games but only one Europe option and one Asia option.

Of course, Blizzard eventually changed so that their games work well in most parts of the world but their initial basis was in the U.S. and focused mainly on NA players it would seem. I am not giving SE an excuse since they have a past MMO where they have people from all over the world...I just don't think 11 saw these problems because the combat wasn't as fast paced.

Gnu wrote:
This moves the discussion forward certainly. The unintended result will be for you take take damage when you are running INTO danger on purpose. Take for example running INTO plumes to avoid Ifrit charges. You know the damage will be dealt before your run on top of plumes, so you are timing it precisely to coincide with the explosion.

There is a lot of ground AoE, Titan bombs, and other mechanics where you are trading one danger for the next, and delaying damage will just make these frustrating from the other side.

(On a side note: I do not at all support changing PvE mechanics to help improve PvP. Just a personal opinion.)

My suggestion: We need the calculation for damage vs. position to happen client side. The server tells the client the timing of the explosion. The client decides if you got hit and reports to the server. The server registers what happened. Is that not a feasible solution?


This is very true, too, and something I take advantage of quite often yet I don't ever see complaining with this. You can easily run into a landslide that has already 'gone off' without taking any damage or being knocked back. Same with big pillars of fire like Ifrit's plumes. You can run THROUGH the plumes as they go off as long as you were on the edge when they initially went off. Not very realistic to run through pillars of fire and not take any damage but this is just another side to the lag story.

It's a bit harder the other way with punishing abilities like landslide hence the backlash from the community I suppose.

Edited, Jan 10th 2014 12:52am by HitomeOfBismarck
#165 Jan 10 2014 at 8:22 AM Rating: Excellent
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Gnu wrote:

My suggestion: We need the calculation for damage vs. position to happen client side. The server tells the client the timing of the explosion. The client decides if you got hit and reports to the server. The server registers what happened. Is that not a feasible solution?


Anything you store client side has the potential to be hacked. Under that scenario, we would almost instantly see people who never get hit.
#166 Jan 10 2014 at 8:23 AM Rating: Excellent
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
Catwho wrote:
Google has more than one data center. They have about a dozen in the US alone. So when you ping Google, you ping the closest one. They did it that way so that no one would ever have a slow search speed.


Google... making people smarter in 0.18 secondsâ„¢ Smiley: lol


Google + Wikipedia > High School Library
#167 Jan 10 2014 at 8:38 AM Rating: Decent
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Well I beat titan.. We had a FC event later in the night
First I went in through df early to test the lag before the event and I could not get out of plumes. I had to leave for for a while so I got home just in time for the event. Well we went in and the lag was much better but when I got to phase 4 after the heart it would kick in a little more. Lots more going on here after the heart. Well I moved to the exact same spot during plumes as someone else in the fc and literally had enough time to wave to him (I didnt for obvious reasons) Well I got burned up and he didnt. The other spot I saw lag was during the jump when the whm though aoe cures. Thing would actually freeze for a second. This makes me think it could be peoples computers partly causing some of the lag.

That being said I really think the main problem is crappy programing.. Collision detection is happening on the server verses the client.. What you see should be what is happening in the game not what the serve sees. The client should be telling the server what it sees. I have played some cheap games that work the same way and they were laggy too..

Anyway I beat titan and was basically carried through the final phase.. I am relieved to have it over but not happy I died it took away allot of the satisfaction of actually beating it. I am really competitive and will eventually be back in to try to beat it, but I want too figure out this lag thing first.

Edited, Jan 10th 2014 9:54am by Nashred
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#168 Jan 10 2014 at 8:40 AM Rating: Good
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Nashred wrote:
Well I beat titan.. We had a FC event later in the night
First I went in through df early to test the lag before the event and I could not get out of plumes. I had to leave for for a while so I got home just in time for the event. Well we went in and the lag was much better but when I got to phase 4 after the heart it would kick in a little more. Lots more going on here after the heart. Well I moved to the exact same spot during plumes as someone else in the fc and literally had enough time to wave to him (I didnt for obvious reasons) Well I got burned up and he didnt. The other spot I saw lag was during the jump when the whm though aoe cures. Thing would actually freeze for a second. This makes me think it could be peoples computers partly causing some of the lag.

That being said I really think the main problem is crappy programing.. Collision detection is happening on the server verses the client.. What you see should be what is happening in the game not what the serve sees. The client should be telling the server what it sees. I have played some cheap games that work the same way and they were laggy too..

Anyway I beat titan and was basically carried through the final phase.. I am relieved to have it over but not happy I died it took away allot of the satisfaction of actually beating it. I am really competitive and will eventually be back in to try to beat it. but I want too figure out this lag thing first.


I'm so glad we all got through it Nash!

#169 Jan 10 2014 at 8:54 AM Rating: Excellent
Valkayree wrote:
Gnu wrote:

My suggestion: We need the calculation for damage vs. position to happen client side. The server tells the client the timing of the explosion. The client decides if you got hit and reports to the server. The server registers what happened. Is that not a feasible solution?


Anything you store client side has the potential to be hacked. Under that scenario, we would almost instantly see people who never get hit.


Ah yes, that sounds quite right Valkyree. Thanks for answering my hypothetical solution.

So it's up to technology to improve this? Or is FFXIV unusual in it's programming? Just from memory, it would seem that other MMO's have the ability to more precise about character location.
#170 Jan 10 2014 at 9:04 AM Rating: Decent
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LebargeX wrote:
Nashred wrote:
Well I beat titan.. We had a FC event later in the night
First I went in through df early to test the lag before the event and I could not get out of plumes. I had to leave for for a while so I got home just in time for the event. Well we went in and the lag was much better but when I got to phase 4 after the heart it would kick in a little more. Lots more going on here after the heart. Well I moved to the exact same spot during plumes as someone else in the fc and literally had enough time to wave to him (I didnt for obvious reasons) Well I got burned up and he didnt. The other spot I saw lag was during the jump when the whm though aoe cures. Thing would actually freeze for a second. This makes me think it could be peoples computers partly causing some of the lag.

That being said I really think the main problem is crappy programing.. Collision detection is happening on the server verses the client.. What you see should be what is happening in the game not what the serve sees. The client should be telling the server what it sees. I have played some cheap games that work the same way and they were laggy too..

Anyway I beat titan and was basically carried through the final phase.. I am relieved to have it over but not happy I died it took away allot of the satisfaction of actually beating it. I am really competitive and will eventually be back in to try to beat it. but I want too figure out this lag thing first.


I'm so glad we all got through it Nash!



Is this Urzol?
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#171 Jan 10 2014 at 11:09 AM Rating: Good
XIV is not unusual in its programming - for an MMO.

All collision detection in an MMO is going to occur server side. If it happens client side, it can be hacked and exploited.

What we need is better Internet connections across the country. It'd be nice if they were available in some areas, even at a high price, but I can't even get friggin AT&T Uverse at my house, let alone a T1 or fiber connection. Smiley: frown The infrastructure just isn't there, and it's not economically viable to build it out to our tiny neighborhood.

... did you know it took government orders to get phone service set up in rural areas? There's been talk of applying that law to broadband Internet access.
#172 Jan 10 2014 at 11:19 AM Rating: Good
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Nashred wrote:
Well I beat titan.. We had a FC event later in the night
First I went in through df early to test the lag before the event and I could not get out of plumes. I had to leave for for a while so I got home just in time for the event. Well we went in and the lag was much better but when I got to phase 4 after the heart it would kick in a little more. Lots more going on here after the heart. Well I moved to the exact same spot during plumes as someone else in the fc and literally had enough time to wave to him (I didnt for obvious reasons) Well I got burned up and he didnt. The other spot I saw lag was during the jump when the whm though aoe cures. Thing would actually freeze for a second. This makes me think it could be peoples computers partly causing some of the lag.
]



I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that its not a good idea to try to follow someone in this fight, not sure if that's true or not, but I wouldn't advise using others to dictate your positioning, I got burned in a titan run cause I followed someone during bombs and he went the wrong way and we both died.

I'm glad you guys were able to get this done, I know more then a few people were getting frustrated by this. I think you said this above but do you play on the PS3 Nashred? Just curious.
#173 Jan 10 2014 at 11:22 AM Rating: Excellent
Quote:
What we need is better Internet connections across the country. It'd be nice if they were available in some areas, even at a high price, but I can't even get friggin AT&T Uverse at my house, let alone a T1 or fiber connection. Smiley: frown The infrastructure just isn't there, and it's not economically viable to build it out to our tiny neighborhood.


Move to Seattle! Problem solved. Smiley: smile
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#174 Jan 10 2014 at 11:22 AM Rating: Good
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Nashred wrote:
LebargeX wrote:
Nashred wrote:
Well I beat titan.. We had a FC event later in the night
First I went in through df early to test the lag before the event and I could not get out of plumes. I had to leave for for a while so I got home just in time for the event. Well we went in and the lag was much better but when I got to phase 4 after the heart it would kick in a little more. Lots more going on here after the heart. Well I moved to the exact same spot during plumes as someone else in the fc and literally had enough time to wave to him (I didnt for obvious reasons) Well I got burned up and he didnt. The other spot I saw lag was during the jump when the whm though aoe cures. Thing would actually freeze for a second. This makes me think it could be peoples computers partly causing some of the lag.

That being said I really think the main problem is crappy programing.. Collision detection is happening on the server verses the client.. What you see should be what is happening in the game not what the serve sees. The client should be telling the server what it sees. I have played some cheap games that work the same way and they were laggy too..

Anyway I beat titan and was basically carried through the final phase.. I am relieved to have it over but not happy I died it took away allot of the satisfaction of actually beating it. I am really competitive and will eventually be back in to try to beat it. but I want too figure out this lag thing first.


I'm so glad we all got through it Nash!



Is this Urzol?


Yup!!

Been meaning to change my signature line and just never have lol. I guess I could do that nowish...

Edit: testing sig

Edited, Jan 10th 2014 9:25am by LebargeX
#175 Jan 10 2014 at 12:30 PM Rating: Decent
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LebargeX wrote:
Nashred wrote:
LebargeX wrote:
Nashred wrote:
Well I beat titan.. We had a FC event later in the night
First I went in through df early to test the lag before the event and I could not get out of plumes. I had to leave for for a while so I got home just in time for the event. Well we went in and the lag was much better but when I got to phase 4 after the heart it would kick in a little more. Lots more going on here after the heart. Well I moved to the exact same spot during plumes as someone else in the fc and literally had enough time to wave to him (I didnt for obvious reasons) Well I got burned up and he didnt. The other spot I saw lag was during the jump when the whm though aoe cures. Thing would actually freeze for a second. This makes me think it could be peoples computers partly causing some of the lag.

That being said I really think the main problem is crappy programing.. Collision detection is happening on the server verses the client.. What you see should be what is happening in the game not what the serve sees. The client should be telling the server what it sees. I have played some cheap games that work the same way and they were laggy too..

Anyway I beat titan and was basically carried through the final phase.. I am relieved to have it over but not happy I died it took away allot of the satisfaction of actually beating it. I am really competitive and will eventually be back in to try to beat it. but I want too figure out this lag thing first.


I'm so glad we all got through it Nash!



Is this Urzol?


Yup!!

Been meaning to change my signature line and just never have lol. I guess I could do that nowish...

Edit: testing sig

Edited, Jan 10th 2014 9:25am by LebargeX


You should be proud you were standing at the end. We thought you had a few close calls and were not going to be able to heal yourself fast enough but you did..

Good job...




Jeskradha wrote:
Nashred wrote:
Well I beat titan.. We had a FC event later in the night
First I went in through df early to test the lag before the event and I could not get out of plumes. I had to leave for for a while so I got home just in time for the event. Well we went in and the lag was much better but when I got to phase 4 after the heart it would kick in a little more. Lots more going on here after the heart. Well I moved to the exact same spot during plumes as someone else in the fc and literally had enough time to wave to him (I didnt for obvious reasons) Well I got burned up and he didnt. The other spot I saw lag was during the jump when the whm though aoe cures. Thing would actually freeze for a second. This makes me think it could be peoples computers partly causing some of the lag.
]



I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that its not a good idea to try to follow someone in this fight, not sure if that's true or not, but I wouldn't advise using others to dictate your positioning, I got burned in a titan run cause I followed someone during bombs and he went the wrong way and we both died.

I'm glad you guys were able to get this done, I know more then a few people were getting frustrated by this. I think you said this above but do you play on the PS3 Nashred? Just curious.



I wasn't following We just ended up in the same space in between.. Following would not work, by the time you see them move they are probably where they need to be... Yea I did follow some in the bombs once too last night, I did not see where they started so I followed and I got blown up ...

I play on a laptop.... Tesee plays ps3, we have a ps4 already for her too move on too when FFXIV comes out on it.. If it turns out really good on the ps4 I may move to it.. They said it would support mouse and KB on the ps4..I also like the vita crafting when I am away...






Edited, Jan 10th 2014 1:39pm by Nashred
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#176 Jan 10 2014 at 12:34 PM Rating: Good
Thayos wrote:
Quote:
What we need is better Internet connections across the country. It'd be nice if they were available in some areas, even at a high price, but I can't even get friggin AT&T Uverse at my house, let alone a T1 or fiber connection. Smiley: frown The infrastructure just isn't there, and it's not economically viable to build it out to our tiny neighborhood.


Move to Seattle! Problem solved. Smiley: smile


Actually, my company's corporate headquarters are there. If my husband doesn't get tenure on Jan 27th of this year (or next year, or the next), plan B is to move to Seattle as soon as I can get transferred there. Smiley: lol

But since he's likely getting tenure we are never leaving Georgia.
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