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#1 Jun 25 2013 at 1:41 PM Rating: Good
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Here you go, have a nice read. The article is with regards to the leveling progression and how Yoshi envisions the game being played out.

http://www.usgamer.net/articles/a-realm-reborn-the-mmo-for-mmo-idiots

It's certainly a long but interesting read.

Edited, Jun 25th 2013 5:03pm by Parathyroid

Edited, Jun 25th 2013 5:06pm by Parathyroid
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#2 Jun 25 2013 at 1:58 PM Rating: Good
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If your reaction is negative, you are blowing it out of proportion. There is still going to be plenty of leveling. Look at all the classes and jobs. I think what he was trying to convey is that an offline FF fan could progress through the 90% main story just as they do in offline titles. He is only stating things as of now up until the level cap.

Huge Point not said: He doesn't state if this is the way the main story or progression will be after the level cap raise or expansions.

Keep my bolded statement in mind before all the negative comments come. Also there will not be 100% unique class story because this game doesn't follow the alt formula. FFXI didn't have a 100% unique story per job through the whole leveling process either, so do not try and hold ARR to some devilish standard. ARR will probably end up having more classes/jobs than Xi in the end if it stays around.



Edited, Jun 25th 2013 4:02pm by sandpark
#3 Jun 25 2013 at 2:03 PM Rating: Good
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Also for those who are really hardcore I could see the time being taken to level the race which benefits each class/job the most. The game starts out easy and will ramp up as the endgame content is tackled.
#4 Jun 25 2013 at 2:08 PM Rating: Excellent
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Eh.

What defines the journey of leveling is completely objective.

It's why there's such a difference between western and eastern RPGs.

Western RPGs always have been about freedom of choice. Japanese RPGs, on the other hand, have always been very linear with a specific narrative in mind.

Then there's Korean games which really are just "click this many times to win while watching pretty graphics" hidden in the form of a "game."

XIV "starts" at 50, but that doesn't necessarily mean the player is endgame ready.

What they've done is created a game within a game. The first trip from 1-50 plays out like an extended tutorial mixed with a traditional Final Fantasy JRPG.

A Warrior of Light bands with friends to take on an evil Empire. All the while, the player is drip fed traditional MMO mechanics.

1-15: Learn how to play the game. Controls, simple battle and interacting with a vast world.
15-20: Learn grouping and basic dungeon play.
20-30: Learn intermediate dungeon play.
30-40: Learn jobs.
40-50: Introduction to endgame material.

All the while, a story unfolds in an old school JRPG kind of way that compels the player forward.

By the time they've reached 50, a player can feel satisfied they've experienced a true Final Fantasy numbered title.

And that's when the MMO "journey" begins.

Before a player ever steps foot in end game, there's housing, crafting, the materia system, numerous other classes that need to be leveled and an entire Free Company and PvP system of which we have 't even scratched the surface.

So, sure, a player can reach 50 with one class at a relatively comfortable pace. But after that, the quests are finished and there's still a lot of work to be done before a character is really end game ready.

Edited, Jun 25th 2013 4:34pm by Sephrick
#5 Jun 25 2013 at 2:24 PM Rating: Excellent
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There's plenty of journey in the leveling. The pacing however is that you feel progress in your journey rather than feel punished for not grinding harder

You log in, play for a few hours, and log out feeling as if you accomplished something. That's the kind of pacing they've been looking for in the game, and it works well.

The game also slows down a bit after your first 50. Now, you have the capability of playing in endgame situations while you also work to expand your availability and playstyle, the system slows down to to quest availability (and the fact that you've already progressed in the main story quest, which is a sizable heap of exp.) Meaning you feel the journey expand a bit more.

You're encouraged to take the time leveling your other classes, and to enjoy the trip during it. But it does it without holding endgame above your head, as your first class is easy to level.

In any other MMO, this would be a problem, but in a game where you can and are encouraged to level multiple classes - where otherwise you are essentially limited to just one unless you want to start your game over.
#6 Jun 25 2013 at 2:27 PM Rating: Good
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No idea why the OP's post got down voted so harshly.. Must have been people that didn't bother to read the article. Regardless of whether or not they did, what Parathyroid said was basically just a TL:DR of the article itself.

Do we have an incognito army of secret White Nights whetting their blades on the skulls of simple information and personal opinion?


Lol less than a minute and I got it too.. if you whet the blade too much it will crack.

Edited, Jun 25th 2013 4:30pm by DamienSScott
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#7 Jun 25 2013 at 2:31 PM Rating: Excellent
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DamienSScott wrote:
No idea why the OP's post got down voted so harshly.. Must have been people that didn't bother to read the article. Regardless of whether or not they did, what Parathyroid said was basically just a TL:DR of the article itself.

Do we have an incognito army of secret White Nights whetting their blades on the skulls of simple information and personal opinion?


Lol less than a minute and I got it too.. if you whet the blade too much it will crack.

Edited, Jun 25th 2013 4:30pm by DamienSScott


Either way I'm going to start nuking posts regarding karma at this point, the horse is dead. I don't know why you felt the need to bring it up again.
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#8 Jun 25 2013 at 2:35 PM Rating: Decent
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It was probably the wording used that chapped a few asses. I don't really care about the karma system personally. We are here to discuss things and share opinions.

News flash!!....!!!.
If you share your view or opinion. Not everyone is going to agree with you or like you. I'd rather see someone voted negative and express their thoughts genuinely. Than pussyfoot around and be in-genuine so people like them.

I posted a topic about a Oculus rift *** game here. It slipped my mind that we had a general forum. I was dumbfounded about my rate down. Then I became aware and I deserved that down vote.
#9 Jun 25 2013 at 2:39 PM Rating: Excellent
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Thank you for posting that. I enjoyed reading it. The more I see and read from Yosi P, the more I'm impressed by him.
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#10 Jun 25 2013 at 2:47 PM Rating: Decent
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sandpark wrote:
If your reaction is negative, you are blowing it out of proportion. There is still going to be plenty of leveling. Look at all the classes and jobs. I think what he was trying to convey is that an offline FF fan could progress through the 90% main story just as they do in offline titles. He is only stating things as of now up until the level cap.

Huge Point not said: He doesn't state if this is the way the main story or progression will be after the level cap raise or expansions.

Keep my bolded statement in mind before all the negative comments come. Also there will not be 100% unique class story because this game doesn't follow the alt formula. FFXI didn't have a 100% unique story per job through the whole leveling process either, so do not try and hold ARR to some devilish standard. ARR will probably end up having more classes/jobs than Xi in the end if it stays around.



Edited, Jun 25th 2013 4:02pm by sandpark


Woah!! First of all I can see absolutely no reason why I was rated down, I simply posted an article by Yoshi with what I thought was a title that could grab some attention? Second of all, my reaction was in NO WAY negative... I've never played a game where leveling is meant to be done quickly, so the "real game starts at level cap" can begin... Not my words Yoshi's. Thus I at this point don't have an opinion on that element of the game. I just know I am enamored with what I've played so far.

I'm in love with this game even though it's out of my comfort zone... Don't know where you got a negative reaction out of my post?

Quoting Yoshi “we believe the game up to level 50 is basically your tutorial. The real game begins from level 50. We have the real challenges begin there. ”

This game is NOT about the leveling process, it's about the end game content and the relationships you build there... He even says modern generation gamers won't stand for a game that has a long leveling process. Furthermore, in the article posted in Wint's post the other day, Yoshi states that "he often wishes he has a button which could take him right to the level cap so the real adventure could begin."

I'm sorry if your asses were chapped, get some baby powder.

Edit: I don't understand why people see "level progression" and determine that this is either a good thing or a bad thing... Gaining access to new gear in endgame is absolutely no different than level progression.

It is functionally the same thing. The more you play the better your character of a certain job class becomes... This is in essence the same thing as "the more you play, the more the number next to your stat that says Lv. reads."


Edited, Jun 25th 2013 4:57pm by Parathyroid
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#11 Jun 25 2013 at 2:52 PM Rating: Excellent
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I personally like their decision to make leveling quicker and end-game the meat of the game. FFXI was my first MMO and as much as I loved the leveling process, it took me nearly two years to get my first job to 75. I started out as a Paladin, but switched to Monk around 55 (which was a poor decision in retrospect). As a result I didn't get to experience much of the end-game content in my first stint of playing for four years. Picking your favorite job usually meant playing as something that people didn't want in end-game (Monk gets to chi-blast once every 3 minutes on god beasts b/c you don't want to feed them TP... yay! >.>). This forced you to have to go through the process all over again with another job, one that you may not enjoy as much. The system in FFXIV allows you to quickly get your first class/job to 50, while still offering a decent amount of grinding for subsequent classes. This is a perfect balance in my opinion. Most of us that played FFXI 10 years ago don't have the time to sit there and play for 8-10 hours to gain one level.

FFXI's leveling had a huge barrier to entry, one that put off several of my friends from playing it for an extended period of time. Those that had played other MMOs, such as WoW, despised the tedious process of leveling after a while. Even my best friend and his brother didn't get much beyond 50-60 and they played almost as much as I did for a couple years. Being able to level your first job quickly is almost necessary to keep expanding your new playerbase. It is a great way to get friends and significant others into the genre without it being overwhelming.
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#12 Jun 25 2013 at 2:58 PM Rating: Excellent
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I'll explain my down arrow for you.

Quote:
If you like the journey of leveling...

... then find a different game.


That's enough for me to downvote you. Context of your post thereafter is irrelevant. You started off your entire post tone with a dismissive remark. Not just dismissive of an opinion, but telling them outright not to play this game. You dismissed people, you discouraged possible members who, even if they do play the game for journeying in levels, could have found multiple other reasons to play the game.

Instead you politely told them to GTFO before even getting into the meat of your post.

Red arrow for you sir.
#13 Jun 25 2013 at 3:03 PM Rating: Excellent
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Parathyroid wrote:
sandpark wrote:
If your reaction is negative, you are blowing it out of proportion. There is still going to be plenty of leveling. Look at all the classes and jobs. I think what he was trying to convey is that an offline FF fan could progress through the 90% main story just as they do in offline titles. He is only stating things as of now up until the level cap.

Huge Point not said: He doesn't state if this is the way the main story or progression will be after the level cap raise or expansions.

Keep my bolded statement in mind before all the negative comments come. Also there will not be 100% unique class story because this game doesn't follow the alt formula. FFXI didn't have a 100% unique story per job through the whole leveling process either, so do not try and hold ARR to some devilish standard. ARR will probably end up having more classes/jobs than Xi in the end if it stays around.



Edited, Jun 25th 2013 4:02pm by sandpark


Woah first of all what the **** is wrong with you people rating me down because I posted an article by Yoshi? Second of all, my reaction was in NO WAY negative... I've never played a game where leveling is meant to be done quickly so the "real game starts at level cap" can begin... Not my words Yoshi's.

I'm in love with this game even though it's out of my comfort zone... Don't know where you got a negative reaction out of my post?

Quoting Yoshi “we believe the game up to level 50 is basically your tutorial. The real game begins from level 50. We have the real challenges begin there. ”

This game is NOT about the leveling process, I'm sorry if you didn't read the article.

I didn't say your reaction was negative. I don't know why you quoted me? I asked if your reaction was negative.

You never played Guild Wars 2? Sure it didn't have traditional endgame but leveling is fast there.

I read the article and I believe some of his comments were taken out of context.

NY: Looking at the current generation of gamers, a lot of them don't want to play something for a long time. The main reason being that there's so much to play. There are so many choices. Not only do you have console games, you have handheld games, and so many other things to do. Creating a game in this generation that takes a long time to level up in is pretty much nonsense. It's not what this generation of players wants.

For ARR, the level cap is going to be level 50 to start the game. We don't want players to have to spend a lot of time getting to level 50. The reason behind this is that we believe the game up to level 50 is basically your tutorial. The real game begins from level 50. We have the real challenges begin there. We have a lot of end content that we've already prepared to be ready at the launch of the game.

"One of the reasons that The Old Republic tripped up was because BioWare didn't have endgame content prepared in time. We hope to have a lot of end content ready."
One of the reasons that Star Wars maybe tripped up a bit was because [BioWare] didn't have that end content prepared in time. They had to make updates, but players got to the end too quickly and they didn't have that ready. We hope to have a lot of end content ready. We also have the schedule set for even more end content. We can keep updating things. Because we have that long schedule, we know what's coming and we know what we have to have ready. We believe that, yes, even though it's going to be easier to get to that level cap than it was in FFXI, from there we'll have a lot of content ready and we'll be adding a lot more in the near future as well.

USG: When you hit the level cap, you say that the real game begins. Besides just seeing the content, though, what motivation is there for the player to keep going when they can no longer level up? What is it that will motivate players to go beyond level 50? For traditional RPG players, a lot of the motivation for playing an RPG is that constant sense of progression and always getting stronger, always learning new skills.

NY: That's a difficult question. We understand that for a lot of console gamers out there, leveling is a very important thing. But we want them to know that, again, it's not always just about your character level, but being able to experience new things. When you get to level 50, the things you'll be able to do... The story will continue, but to be able to continue the story, you'll need to become more powerful in different ways.

For example, getting better gear. Even though you're level 50, you'll get better gear that will help you handle these challenges. To get that gear, you'll have to go through new quests and new dungeons, and that will in turn help you attack these new challenges.

Again, we understand that some people will get to level 50 and think, "Okay, I'm done." You can't retain all of those guys. But what you can do to retain some of them is to show them that, yeah, you can get to level 50, but there are still new challenges that await you and new things that you can do.

One way to think about it is like this. You go through the game. You get to level 50. You have the final main scenario battle with the enemy from the Empire and then you kill him. But once you kill him, the primal Bahamut is released, and he's flying over the world, raining his fire down. You're level 50, but do you stop there? If players want to stop there, they can stop there, but they have the option to get stronger through your gear and experience more new quests. Level 50 is where the game really starts.


1.He doesn't want leveling up to take a long time. He doesn't explicitly say it's pointless.
2,He says there is story up until level 50 which is mostly soloable. But he says the story can continue. It will become much more harder to advance.
3.When he refers to the game really starts at 50. I think he means that's where the game being more similar to an offline FF starts to become more mmoish and difficult to progress.

Swtor did the same thing. The leveling process was more akin to Kotor. In ARR it more akin to an offline FF 1-50. Only in this game he is promising there will be tons of endgame content.

I like you, I'm sorry if it seemed like I was accusing you of something.
#14 Jun 25 2013 at 3:05 PM Rating: Excellent
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Ohh that whole thing wasn't at you... the only part at you was when you asked if my response was negative, sorry I should have mentioned that.

I just wanted you to know I didn't think this was a bad thing... The part where I talk about level progression = end game progression was the response to you.
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#15 Jun 25 2013 at 3:06 PM Rating: Excellent
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DamienSScott wrote:
I personally like their decision to make leveling quicker and end-game the meat of the game. FFXI was my first MMO and as much as I loved the leveling process, it took me nearly two years to get my first job to 75. I started out as a Paladin, but switched to Monk around 55 (which was a poor decision in retrospect). As a result I didn't get to experience much of the end-game content in my first stint of playing for four years. Picking your favorite job usually meant playing as something that people didn't want in end-game (Monk gets to chi-blast once every 3 minutes on god beasts b/c you don't want to feed them TP... yay! >.>). This forced you to have to go through the process all over again with another job, one that you may not enjoy as much. The system in FFXIV allows you to quickly get your first class/job to 50, while still offering a decent amount of grinding for subsequent classes. This is a perfect balance in my opinion. Most of us that played FFXI 10 years ago don't have the time to sit there and play for 8-10 hours to gain one level.

FFXI's leveling had a huge barrier to entry, one that put off several of my friends from playing it for an extended period of time. Those that had played other MMOs, such as WoW, despised the tedious process of leveling after a while. Even my best friend and his brother didn't get much beyond 50-60 and they played almost as much as I did for a couple years. Being able to level your first job quickly is almost necessary to keep expanding your new playerbase. It is a great way to get friends and significant others into the genre without it being overwhelming.



Well said. I will also add that if this game had a grind every level thing going on, I wouldn't play it. It also took me over a year to fight Maat. And if your the guy, me, who thought a healing monk (MNK/WHM) was a cool idea you had to start all over again when you realized people hated you unless you were /WAR. Then you realize that end game hates monk, except for year 6 when you got formless strikes and then in abyssea. I think I was asked to go Monk on Alexander fight (ToAU), first time I fetl needed. lets not even talk about what happened to the TNL at 60, good god, man.

Off point, I agree that ARR is a good pace. Keeping up with the endgame and additional content is a different story. We will see.
#16 Jun 25 2013 at 3:12 PM Rating: Good
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Parathyroid wrote:
Ohh that whole thing wasn't at you... the only part at you was when you asked if my response was negative, sorry I should have mentioned that.

I just wanted you to know I didn't think this was a bad thing... The part where I talk about level progression = end game progression was the response to you.

I wasn't sure by your wording which Is why I asked. Wording and context is everything. And things get taken out of context very easily.

/shake hands
#17 Jun 25 2013 at 3:19 PM Rating: Good
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WFOAssassin wrote:
Well said. I will also add that if this game had a grind every level thing going on, I wouldn't play it. It also took me over a year to fight Maat. And if your the guy, me, who thought a healing monk (MNK/WHM) was a cool idea you had to start all over again when you realized people hated you unless you were /WAR. Then you realize that end game hates monk, except for year 6 when you got formless strikes and then in abyssea. I think I was asked to go Monk on Alexander fight (ToAU), first time I fetl needed. lets not even talk about what happened to the TNL at 60, good god, man.

Off point, I agree that ARR is a good pace. Keeping up with the endgame and additional content is a different story. We will see.


Yeah.. Every job I seemed to pick was disliked in end-game. Paladin was losing favor over NIN/WAR and WAR/NIN and MNK was useless when I played. Puppetmaster is still considered the worst job in the game, especially for end-game, even though it puts out nearly double the damage of most other jobs.

Oh man, and that TNL.. it was actually double or triple that for a while after the game came out. They lowered it right about the time I got to those levels. I think I recall people needing 120k+ exp to get a level.
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#18 Jun 25 2013 at 3:21 PM Rating: Good
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Liking the edit to the topic and first structure. Kudos to you for listening to feedback.

Sadly I cannot invert a downvote.
#19 Jun 25 2013 at 3:23 PM Rating: Decent
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sandpark wrote:
Parathyroid wrote:
Ohh that whole thing wasn't at you... the only part at you was when you asked if my response was negative, sorry I should have mentioned that.

I just wanted you to know I didn't think this was a bad thing... The part where I talk about level progression = end game progression was the response to you.

I wasn't sure by your wording which Is why I asked. Wording and context is everything. And things get taken out of context very easily.

/shake hands


/man hug (assuming you're a man Smiley: lol)


Hyrist wrote:
Liking the edit to the topic and first structure. Kudos to you for listening to feedback.

Sadly I cannot invert a downvote.


Ahh I didn't mean in any way for the original version of the post to be offensive.

Edited, Jun 25th 2013 5:25pm by Parathyroid
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#20 Jun 25 2013 at 3:29 PM Rating: Decent
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Parathyroid wrote:
sandpark wrote:
Parathyroid wrote:
Ohh that whole thing wasn't at you... the only part at you was when you asked if my response was negative, sorry I should have mentioned that.

I just wanted you to know I didn't think this was a bad thing... The part where I talk about level progression = end game progression was the response to you.

I wasn't sure by your wording which Is why I asked. Wording and context is everything. And things get taken out of context very easily.

/shake hands


/man hug (assuming you're a man Smiley: lol)


Hyrist wrote:
Liking the edit to the topic and first structure. Kudos to you for listening to feedback.

Sadly I cannot invert a downvote.


Ahh I didn't mean in any way for the original version of the post to be offensive.

Edited, Jun 25th 2013 5:25pm by Parathyroid

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#21 Jun 25 2013 at 4:13 PM Rating: Excellent
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Iv never really cared about end game, its always the adventure there that counts, but i think they did a great job on stuff to do at all levels and some good crafted gaer and droped for all the levels it looks like, so im happy!
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#22 Jun 25 2013 at 5:20 PM Rating: Good
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IMFW wrote:
Iv never really cared about end game, its always the adventure there that counts, but i think they did a great job on stuff to do at all levels and some good crafted gaer and droped for all the levels it looks like, so im happy!


I second that! I loved XI when I was in high school, and played it religiously (after hw was done). Now I dont have the grind time, and now just hop on do some leves, craft some! Fun time!
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#23 Jun 25 2013 at 5:26 PM Rating: Decent
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Anemone Knight = Paladin? Interesting article. I wonder if endgame will really be all that expansive and multi tiered in gear. I think the thing FF11 did the best was keeping you working towards new unofficial tiers.
#24 Jun 25 2013 at 5:53 PM Rating: Decent
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amit wrote:
IMFW wrote:
Iv never really cared about end game, its always the adventure there that counts, but i think they did a great job on stuff to do at all levels and some good crafted gaer and droped for all the levels it looks like, so im happy!


I second that! I loved XI when I was in high school, and played it religiously (after hw was done). Now I dont have the grind time, and now just hop on do some leves, craft some! Fun time!


For me XI got boring once I got to end game... I loved the journey to getting there. Though I sense XIV will have a completely different style of endgame.

gweenteam wrote:
Anemone Knight = Paladin? Interesting article. I wonder if endgame will really be all that expansive and multi tiered in gear. I think the thing FF11 did the best was keeping you working towards new unofficial tiers.


Haha yeah they did that VERY well... heck, half of the stuff you REALLLLY wanted was obtainable by level 35, just incredibly hard to get (peacock charm, leaping boots both come to mind.)

That's the one thing I KNOW XIV will never do well, and I will truly always miss that... as I do believe no game will ever have material like that again. Our society revolves around fairness and equality, and people can no longer accept not having something that someone else can get.

None the less, XIV is clearly going to do about 1,000 things XI didn't... so in the end I think I'm going to love XIV just as much as XI.

How many of you on here are having that "first MMO" feeling we've all been told we can never get back again? I sure as heck know I am... and that's a good... no... a GREAT thing Smiley: nod

Edited, Jun 25th 2013 7:59pm by Parathyroid
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