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#1 Feb 08 2013 at 9:34 AM Rating: Excellent
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http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/blog/post/191

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This is Not a Test
February 08, 2013

Hello everyone! Fernehalwes back again.

I mean, seriously. I leave Pinurabi alone for one minute, and he’s off gallivanting about, pretending to be King of the Blog. This is simply unacceptable, so to teach the bad boy a lesson, I’ve locked him up in the utility closet where we store all our overstock tonberry plushies. That should give him something to think about.

Now then...
Back on Tuesday, Yoshi-P had everyone on the FINAL FANTASY XIV development team participate in a half-day play test of the soon-to-be-released Beta Version. Sure, it was the perfect chance to sift through the content and find bugs or whatnot, but it was also an opportunity to take a step back and experience the game as players, and that in itself was just plain fun.

In addition to watching a bunch of new quests...

...some of us partied up and tried our hands at the Full Active Time Events (FATE)...
Screenshot


...while some of us did runs through the new instanced dungeons...
Screenshot


...and then there were those of us who just spent four hours in the Adventurers’ Guild harassing that cute Lalafell in the short skirt and high boots.
Screenshot


Good times!

Fernehalwes



Edited, Feb 8th 2013 9:35am by Wint
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#2 Feb 08 2013 at 9:48 AM Rating: Good
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FATE's look like they are going to be awesome! Looks like thats some form of an adamantoise possibly.

edit: or maybe not.. didn't notice it was floating till staring at it longer.

Edited, Feb 8th 2013 10:51am by Pontipy
#3 Feb 08 2013 at 9:50 AM Rating: Excellent
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I was thinking giant Ahriman, that long thing looks like a spiky tail. We saw adamantoise in one of the alpha vids, I'll see if I can find a screenshot.
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#4 Feb 08 2013 at 10:06 AM Rating: Good
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Pontipy wrote:
FATE's look like they are going to be awesome! Looks like thats some form of an adamantoise possibly.

edit: or maybe not.. didn't notice it was floating till staring at it longer.

Edited, Feb 8th 2013 10:51am by Pontipy

I had never heard of the FATE system until a few weeks ago when it was mentioned along with random treasure chests being found while exploring. Is anyone able to shed some light on this for me or able to link me some details about it? Is it supposed to be similar to GW2 open world events that everyone can team up for?

And if that's the same as our Beta version, why do they get paladins and we don't!? >.> <.<
#5 Feb 08 2013 at 10:18 AM Rating: Excellent
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scorleone wrote:
Pontipy wrote:
FATE's look like they are going to be awesome! Looks like thats some form of an adamantoise possibly.

edit: or maybe not.. didn't notice it was floating till staring at it longer.

Edited, Feb 8th 2013 10:51am by Pontipy

I had never heard of the FATE system until a few weeks ago when it was mentioned along with random treasure chests being found while exploring. Is anyone able to shed some light on this for me or able to link me some details about it? Is it supposed to be similar to GW2 open world events that everyone can team up for?

And if that's the same as our Beta version, why do they get paladins and we don't!? >.> <.<


http://ffxiv.zam.com/forum.html?forum=152&mid=13600135763527747#5
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#6 Feb 08 2013 at 10:26 AM Rating: Excellent
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#7 Feb 08 2013 at 10:37 AM Rating: Good
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WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!! Those are amazing screenshots. If those aren't touched up and the game actually looks that pretty cranked, incoming $1000 of upgrades lol.
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#8 Feb 08 2013 at 1:58 PM Rating: Good
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Onionthiefx wrote:
WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!! Those are amazing screenshots. If those aren't touched up and the game actually looks that pretty cranked, incoming $1000 of upgrades lol.


While the game does look nice, you shouldn't judge graphical quality on a handful of thumbnails, haha.
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#9 Feb 08 2013 at 2:42 PM Rating: Decent
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I wish they'd stop torturing us with all this beta information. The more I see, the more I want to play!
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#10 Feb 08 2013 at 3:29 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm extremely dubious that the FATEs are going to be fun for lack of balance :/ Of course, that's presuming in the first place that they even manage to make combat skillful and engaging, but if they do, I'd rather they err on the side of difficulty than make them too easy. I dunno, as much as I want the game to succeed, I honestly will be amazed if it doesn't fizzle out within 6 months because there's either nothing to do (because everyone has already done it), or there's too much of a grind. Skill, balance, pacing control... I just don't see this picture coming together yet. Hopefully we'll see the "real" gameplay footage soon and fears will be allayed.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#11 Feb 08 2013 at 6:22 PM Rating: Good
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...because there's either nothing to do (because everyone has already done it), or there's too much of a grind...


So you mean you'll be unhappy whether there is stuff to do or not? There is no pleasing you, sir.
#12 Feb 08 2013 at 6:35 PM Rating: Default
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Au contraire, there is a critical middle ground that all content and gameplay in a "good game" must aspire to. Content that is too easy or difficult is not good. Content that takes too little time or too much time to complete is not good. It's not something that you can bifurcate into a dichotomy.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#13 Feb 08 2013 at 7:29 PM Rating: Excellent
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Kachi wrote:
Au contraire, there is a critical middle ground that all content and gameplay in a "good game" must aspire to. Content that is too easy or difficult is not good. Content that takes too little time or too much time to complete is not good. It's not something that you can bifurcate into a dichotomy.


Honestly, I don't think there is a game out there that would make you completely happy Smiley: tongue
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#14 Feb 08 2013 at 7:52 PM Rating: Default
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Well, you'd be wrong. I've played a number of games that I thought were wonderful. Like anyone, I usually have some small criticisms.

Now if you're talking about MMO's specifically, then it's not just me. Most game critics tend to agree that MMO's do not generally embrace good design practices and tend to pale in comparison to single-player/standard multiplayer games.

Also, I am perfectly capable of recognizing when a game was designed well even if I don't personally enjoy it. For example, GW2 was formulaic and poorly paced, but it was a good game. It's just that it was only good for about 2-4 months, which is not a good quality for MMOs. Meanwhile, there are plenty of non-MMO examples that are successful for years and retain an active playerbase.

Edited, Feb 8th 2013 5:55pm by Kachi
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#15 Feb 08 2013 at 7:55 PM Rating: Excellent
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Kachi wrote:
Well, you'd be wrong. I've played a number of games that I thought were wonderful. Like anyone, I usually have some small criticisms.

Now if you're talking about MMO's specifically, then it's not just me. Most game critics tend to agree that MMO's do not generally embrace good design practices and tend to pale in comparison to single-player/standard multiplayer games.


Easy there bud, I was just teasing Smiley: smile
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#16 Feb 08 2013 at 7:58 PM Rating: Default
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I wasn't being defensive; just 'splaining. :P


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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#17 Feb 08 2013 at 8:00 PM Rating: Default
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You'll have to forgive me for being a bit terse lately. I'm not quite sure what's gotten into me. Perhaps it's the lack of substantive discussion (due to lack of information to chew on).
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#18 Feb 08 2013 at 8:53 PM Rating: Excellent
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Yeah aside from the dev blog it's been a bit light. I attribute that to the ramping up of beta.
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#19 Feb 08 2013 at 9:01 PM Rating: Good
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Kachi wrote:
I'm extremely dubious that the FATEs are going to be fun for lack of balance :/ Of course, that's presuming in the first place that they even manage to make combat skillful and engaging, but if they do, I'd rather they err on the side of difficulty than make them too easy. I dunno, as much as I want the game to succeed, I honestly will be amazed if it doesn't fizzle out within 6 months because there's either nothing to do (because everyone has already done it), or there's too much of a grind. Skill, balance, pacing control... I just don't see this picture coming together yet. Hopefully we'll see the "real" gameplay footage soon and fears will be allayed.



I don't know if I'd want FATEs to be difficult, but there's something to be said about the entire game being a bit on the difficult side.

I never got to endgame in FFXI, in part to the obvious trials for a "casual" player (with a case of MMO ADD). That difficulty hid parts of the game, and in turn made the world seem a bit bigger than it was, but also a bit more mysterious.

I played GW2 for about 2 months. It was pretty fun while it lasted, but once I got to the end, (and after exploring everywhere) I was like, "OK, what's next?" And there really wasn't much left.

So either you make the world HUGE and keep the pacing at a fast clip, OR you have a smaller world and fill it with tons of sidequests, OR you make the world even smaller and put blocks to progression.

In the end I'd rather the game lean over to the FFXI side of pacing and difficulty than the RIFT/GW2, if only to keep interest in the game/longevity.

---

As far as the combat is concerned and the actual mechanics, I guess it's just a waiting game, like you say.
#20 Feb 08 2013 at 9:34 PM Rating: Decent
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GW2 pacing was definitely too fast, and there were no specific incentives to do most of the content. e.g., any given dynamic event, no matter how cool, only offered generic rewards. And those events, as I suspect will be the same with FATEs, were horribly balanced because the number of players was really the only thing that determined your success. And that's my concern. If they follow the GW2 model, it will be boring within a few months. That works fine for GW2 because GW2 is not a subscription game. Copying that to FFXIV is a recipe for disaster.

Likewise, if they take this page from FFXI and rely on heavy timesinks and bottlenecks to pace the content, they're going to run into abysmal subscription numbers as players get bored/frustrated and leave.

So that's where I'm skeptical that this is going to work out, because they actually need to do something completely different that to my knowledge, has not been done in any other game. And I don't get a strong sense that they understand game design so much as they're trying their damnedest. At the very least, most MMOs fail, so getting one's hopes up about a game that already failed once (didn't even come close to succeeding) is a bit ill-advised.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#21 Feb 08 2013 at 9:52 PM Rating: Excellent
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Kachi wrote:
GW2 pacing was definitely too fast, and there were no specific incentives to do most of the content. e.g., any given dynamic event, no matter how cool, only offered generic rewards. And those events, as I suspect will be the same with FATEs, were horribly balanced because the number of players was really the only thing that determined your success. And that's my concern. If they follow the GW2 model, it will be boring within a few months. That works fine for GW2 because GW2 is not a subscription game. Copying that to FFXIV is a recipe for disaster.


Or, rather than a disaster... FATE could be the perfect thing for FFXIV because it's a subscription based game.

You can't easily dismiss the fact there's a development team who has a financial incentive to keep the game's content vibrant. If FATE burns out too quick, they can add new things to it to keep it interesting. Or if it proves to be completely unpopular, they can go in a different direction. That's the wonderful thing about subscription-based MMOs. They evolve.
#22 Feb 08 2013 at 10:11 PM Rating: Decent
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Could be, but the thing about evolution, is that it requires survival... of the fittest.

SE has a horrible track record of implementing content. They're slow as an adamantoise with updates. After launch, they'll have their hands full with other critical tasks. And if they don't strike a great impression within the first few months, they might not have a chance to see through with any content updates at all.

Edited, Feb 8th 2013 8:57pm by Kachi
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#23 Feb 08 2013 at 10:32 PM Rating: Excellent
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I wonder will FATE be something you sign up before it spawns to fight it or will it be a like FF14 NM before they marked them on the map.You're in Coerthas riding your Chocobo on a well traveled road then THWACK a huge serpent tail smack one shot you and kills several other passersby while you ponder about what killed you....good times,good times.Smiley: lol
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#24 Feb 09 2013 at 4:36 AM Rating: Excellent
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Kachi wrote:
Could be, but the thing about evolution, is that it requires survival... of the fittest.

SE has a horrible track record of implementing content. They're slow as an adamantoise with updates. After launch, they'll have their hands full with other critical tasks. And if they don't strike a great impression within the first few months, they might not have a chance to see through with any content updates at all.


I thought they had a pretty good pace with updates in FFXI. They usually had 5 or 6 major in ones a year when it first started, plus the expansions. I suppose WoW might have been better, but they had 24 times the revenue stream. So that hardly indicates SE has a horrible track record, at least on this subject.
#25 Feb 09 2013 at 5:39 AM Rating: Excellent
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FATE definitely needs a good balance when it comes to difficulty, mechanics and frequency to be a good addition that actually excites players for more than one or two events.

When it comes to difficulty I believe it should be something that players win more often than not (especially so at earlier levels), but it should be based on how well the group that is present can manage to work together and their skill rather than how many players that are participating. The challenge of these events should also scale with levels.

Mechanics is very important imo and this is something that I think should scale with levels to increase the difficulty, but also the staying power of events like these. So say we are talking about NM FATEs at level 10, a regular zerg fest might be enough simply because people don't have a lot of abilities and are still learning the basics of the game. A level 20 NM FATE however might add a mechanic where everyone needs to dodge a certain big move. A level 30 NM FATE then might have two different mechanics where people need to start working together to actually succeed in the fight; maybe first you need to weaken the mob, when it is weak enough the tank tries to draw the mob into a cage that two different groups need to open using some type of device where timing is needed at the same time as you need to defent the "cage opener group" from smaller mobs trying to intervene. So that with levels the complexity of the FATEs increase (My example might have been a bad one, but I think you get the picture) which at least in my opinion helps events from getting boring.

I think it was Kachi who mentioned this in some other thread and I think it is an important point. FATEs should not happen all the time, especially not "cooler" ones like Behemoth. The reason being that something that happens frequently doesn't feel as special and exciting anymore, there should not always be a FATE going on in every zone. The FATE system should work as a compliment and a random break from the usual "lull" so to speak (imo of course), it should not become a part of the "lull", if that makes any sense. Also, personally I would not be against these types of events giving rather decent rewards and although I agree the main obstacle for getting rewards should be skill not time, I do think there needs to be some restraints to how often you can get a chance to get these rewards.

Personally I would also like some type of randomness in the FATEs themselves, something that will always keep you on your toes even if it isn't the first time you fight this particular FATE. Not exaclty sure what this could be but possibly different behaviours of the same FATE, depending on how many are present, night/day, how you try to tacle the problem. It doesn't have to be different in terms of difficulty, just in what you need to do to win so that there are fewer fights that are exact copies of the previous one. Maybe this is something that fits better into fights that are more meant for a cohesive group of players like an LS etc however I still think it could fit well into a scenario like this.
#26 Feb 09 2013 at 8:59 AM Rating: Good
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Xoie wrote:
Kachi wrote:
Could be, but the thing about evolution, is that it requires survival... of the fittest.

SE has a horrible track record of implementing content. They're slow as an adamantoise with updates. After launch, they'll have their hands full with other critical tasks. And if they don't strike a great impression within the first few months, they might not have a chance to see through with any content updates at all.


I thought they had a pretty good pace with updates in FFXI. They usually had 5 or 6 major in ones a year when it first started, plus the expansions. I suppose WoW might have been better, but they had 24 times the revenue stream. So that hardly indicates SE has a horrible track record, at least on this subject.


My memory might be failing me, but content updates were okay only if you disregarded the artificially long progression pacing in general. Had leveling been sped up to a reasonable pace (which it will have to be in FFXIV if it is to survive), then the content would have been insufficient.

However, regarding things like balance issues, they were atrociously slow to respond (consider gems like Pandemonium Warden, Absolute Virtue). Class balance is one thing, but encounter balancing is just so critical to the life of a game in this day that they really will not have a couple of months to drag their feet. It's fix it or nix it for players these days.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#27 Feb 09 2013 at 9:01 AM Rating: Good
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I love Fernehalwes style! Great screenshots and glad to hear they are pushing the beta testing into the office. Sounds like it's 'about that time'!
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#28 Feb 09 2013 at 9:44 AM Rating: Default
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FATE is something I've always wanted from this game and what I hoped the 30 something guildleve cards were initially. They comment on variety and the name FATE makes me think of a timeline where events take place. Also GW2 didn't do this first, XI did. GW2 just took it and made events cascade or chain.

FATE existed in XI if you take every public event it had and place a banner which every public event fell under. Expect the same difficulty threshold you experienced in XI public events since this team contains people who worked in XI. Whether that's good or bad depends on your perception. It won't be super difficult though, that is resigned to the real endgame content. Expect more and you're pretty much relegating yourself to potential dissatisfaction.

I look at the potential this system holds if it gets constant development. Think of every FF game known to draw active events from, make it multiplayer, make it recurring repeatable content. Place the timeline where events recur at a frequency besieged occured daily. And you have a recipe for fun. The perception with low recurring rates will be"They don't happen often enough". But stick to that rate continually adding more events overtime and the perception will change to"This is a fun break from the grind, they are paced well".

I hope the rewards are perishable and that xp, gil, or currency aren't the only rewards. By perishable I mean that the loot dropped requires consistent participation in FATE or the bonus is depleted.
#29 Feb 09 2013 at 9:53 AM Rating: Good
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KaneKitty wrote:
Onionthiefx wrote:
WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!! Those are amazing screenshots. If those aren't touched up and the game actually looks that pretty cranked, incoming $1000 of upgrades lol.


While the game does look nice, you shouldn't judge graphical quality on a handful of thumbnails, haha.


I would agree but I hope you can get into the beta to see for yourself. I don't know if you would need $1000 (I'm sure you were just excited with that number) worth of upgrades but I think it would help make your life better if you decide to live in that world.

#30 Feb 09 2013 at 3:19 PM Rating: Excellent
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scorleone wrote:
Pontipy wrote:
FATE's look like they are going to be awesome! Looks like thats some form of an adamantoise possibly.

edit: or maybe not.. didn't notice it was floating till staring at it longer.

Edited, Feb 8th 2013 10:51am by Pontipy

I had never heard of the FATE system until a few weeks ago when it was mentioned along with random treasure chests being found while exploring. Is anyone able to shed some light on this for me or able to link me some details about it? Is it supposed to be similar to GW2 open world events that everyone can team up for?

And if that's the same as our Beta version, why do they get paladins and we don't!? >.> <.<


http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/60225-Simply-question-about-Beta-phase-1?p=957161#post957161

Bayohne wrote:
Greetings everyone,

I've updated the original post in this thread to clarify my original statement. While normally you would only be able to play as the classes available in Gridania, please note that as a special exception during Beta Test phase 1 & 2, players will be able to complete specific objectives to unlock the gladiator class. Tanks will be very much needed for content like instanced raids (the level 25 dungeon in particular) and as such the dev. team has made them available for usage!

Eagle-eyed posters already spotted some gladiators in our most recent blog post, too.
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#31 Feb 09 2013 at 3:27 PM Rating: Decent
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Nice!
#32 Feb 10 2013 at 10:41 AM Rating: Decent
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ReshepKasadu wrote:
Kachi-
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...because there's either nothing to do (because everyone has already done it), or there's too much of a grind...


So you mean you'll be unhappy whether there is stuff to do or not? There is no pleasing you, sir.


Have to love someone making his 3rd post making broad, all-encompassing criticisms of someone who has made 9,000+ posts.
#33 Feb 10 2013 at 2:04 PM Rating: Decent
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Wint wrote:


http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/60225-Simply-question-about-Beta-phase-1?p=957161#post957161

Bayohne wrote:
Greetings everyone,

I've updated the original post in this thread to clarify my original statement. While normally you would only be able to play as the classes available in Gridania, please note that as a special exception during Beta Test phase 1 & 2, players will be able to complete specific objectives to unlock the gladiator class. Tanks will be very much needed for content like instanced raids (the level 25 dungeon in particular) and as such the dev. team has made them available for usage!

Eagle-eyed posters already spotted some gladiators in our most recent blog post, too.
This changes everything! Finally we'll get to see exactly how this new combat system works in some REAL battles. There's so much we're going to learn now during Phase 1, the excitement level has just doubled for me (if that's even possible!)!

EDIT: I'm also extremely happy they chose Paladin/Gladiator as the tank to add instead of Warrior. Hopefully this means they consider it to be the best tank for ARR's future content. ( ' . ' )b

Edited, Feb 10th 2013 3:15pm by scorleone
#34 Feb 10 2013 at 2:52 PM Rating: Decent
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scorleone wrote:

EDIT: I'm also extremely happy they chose Paladin/Gladiator as the tank to add instead of Warrior. Hopefully this means they consider it to be the best tank for ARR's future content. ( ' . ' )b
Edited, Feb 10th 2013 3:15pm by scorleone


I saw this discussion in the official forums as well and for the life of me I just cannot in any way understand why people think it would be a good idea to have one class that is superior to other classes of the same role instead of just different, but equal in terms of viability.

In that thread so many people even went so far as to say they thought there should only be one tank (was another thread saying the same thing about healers) and again... I am just stumped. WHY would you not want there to be several equally viable options for each role?

Argh it is just SO frustrating to see this mentality!
#35 Feb 10 2013 at 3:12 PM Rating: Decent
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Belcrono wrote:
scorleone wrote:

EDIT: I'm also extremely happy they chose Paladin/Gladiator as the tank to add instead of Warrior. Hopefully this means they consider it to be the best tank for ARR's future content. ( ' . ' )b
Edited, Feb 10th 2013 3:15pm by scorleone


I saw this discussion in the official forums as well and for the life of me I just cannot in any way understand why people think it would be a good idea to have one class that is superior to other classes of the same role instead of just different, but equal in terms of viability.

In that thread so many people even went so far as to say they thought there should only be one tank (was another thread saying the same thing about healers) and again... I am just stumped. WHY would you not want there to be several equally viable options for each role?

Argh it is just SO frustrating to see this mentality!
I haven't read that thread you speak of, though I'm sure I've read plenty of similar ones that have been done over the last couple years. Warrior can stay awesome like it was, I'm just hoping my old favorite class (gladiator/paladin) is made even better for ARR! As a matter of fact, I agree with you 110% on wanting several jobs to be viable for each role - would make my day to hear that they were going to bring back Pugilist evasion tanks like we were able to use in early 1.0!
#36 Feb 10 2013 at 3:48 PM Rating: Good
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I didn't really mean that you think there should only be one tank class. That was just me venting pent up frustration from not being able to post in the threads I mentioned, since the subject was somewhat raised here. However it sounds like you want paladin/gladiator to be the best choice (correct me if I am wrong, but to me that is what it sounded like from what I quoted) and I think that is almost as bad, and like I mentioned I don't understand the reason for it.

Edited, Feb 10th 2013 4:49pm by Belcrono

Edited, Feb 10th 2013 4:50pm by Belcrono
#37 Feb 10 2013 at 5:06 PM Rating: Decent
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Belcrono wrote:
However it sounds like you want paladin/gladiator to be the best choice (correct me if I am wrong, but to me that is what it sounded like from what I quoted) and I think that is almost as bad, and like I mentioned I don't understand the reason for it.

Edited, Feb 10th 2013 4:49pm by Belcrono

Edited, Feb 10th 2013 4:50pm by Belcrono
What you're missing though, is that I also agree all tanks should be created equal. The harsh truth is (in most cases), even if devs intend for them to be equal more often than not one will be considered the best. I don't know how they figure it out (the gaming community), but they always do (through parsing or whatever else you computer geniuses use).

So, all I'm saying is when/if this inequality is discovered, I hope my Pally comes out on top! If SE somehow figures out a way to make them all equally awesome I will be just as thrilled (or more maybe) as if my Pally ends up OP. I would bet all my gil though that within a few months after launch the community will have already labeled the consensus "Best DPS Class" and "Best Tank" in the game - and this always results in class discrimination when using LFG shouts and pick up groups (hence my wishes to be considered the job of choice ^^).


EDIT: added just a little more details at the end there.
Edited, Feb 10th 2013 6:08pm by scorleone

Edited, Feb 10th 2013 6:12pm by scorleone
#38 Feb 10 2013 at 5:10 PM Rating: Good
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The issue is the false concept that Warrior was the superior tank. It never was. Poorly geared Paladins were responsible for the trend of thinking on that. But it was clear to any high end group that Paladin actually had the best tanking potential.

Thats not to say that Warrior couldn't tank, mind you, but sword and board were the go-to for all the top LSes, to the point where they were laughing at the forums for claiming otherwise while they posted videos of their runs with Paladin tanks.

Warriors could tank, they just needed more assistance to do so successfully.
#39 Feb 10 2013 at 5:12 PM Rating: Decent
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That's usually to some degree due to the tendency for designers to create a system where encounters rely on one tank. If the intention is for only one or two players to fill a role, then which one is best becomes rather important.
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#40 Feb 10 2013 at 5:16 PM Rating: Decent
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Hyrist wrote:
The issue is the false concept that Warrior was the superior tank. It never was. Poorly geared Paladins were responsible for the trend of thinking on that. But it was clear to any high end group that Paladin actually had the best tanking potential.

Thats not to say that Warrior couldn't tank, mind you, but sword and board were the go-to for all the top LSes, to the point where they were laughing at the forums for claiming otherwise while they posted videos of their runs with Paladin tanks.

Warriors could tank, they just needed more assistance to do so successfully.
I always thought the main reason Warriors were considered to have an unfair advantage was because of their superior DPS to Paladin. That and being able to take larger hits than a Paladin with its higher HP - namely in Coincounter.
#41 Feb 10 2013 at 7:45 PM Rating: Decent
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scorleone wrote:
Hyrist wrote:
The issue is the false concept that Warrior was the superior tank. It never was. Poorly geared Paladins were responsible for the trend of thinking on that. But it was clear to any high end group that Paladin actually had the best tanking potential.

Thats not to say that Warrior couldn't tank, mind you, but sword and board were the go-to for all the top LSes, to the point where they were laughing at the forums for claiming otherwise while they posted videos of their runs with Paladin tanks.

Warriors could tank, they just needed more assistance to do so successfully.
I always thought the main reason Warriors were considered to have an unfair advantage was because of their superior DPS to Paladin. That and being able to take larger hits than a Paladin with its higher HP - namely in Coincounter.


^^ I always loved PLD as did Angeal ;) Mr. Corleone hehehe, Narisa /cough/ shall join you soon.

It also depended on the person as well; I never questioned certain players. Such as yourself, Angeal and a select small group. Whatever you guys played on was fine with me :P

I still miss taking on Ifrit on paladin :(

Edited, Feb 10th 2013 5:46pm by Elionara
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#42 Feb 10 2013 at 9:43 PM Rating: Good
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scorleone wrote:
I always thought the main reason Warriors were considered to have an unfair advantage was because of their superior DPS to Paladin. That and being able to take larger hits than a Paladin with its higher HP - namely in Coincounter.


Both of which were symptoms of a poorly geared Paladin.

Paladin did the higher DPS on single targets when geared properly. Additionally, their higher hate threshold point allows them to hold hate with higher DPS on the team as a whole. This was even before the nerfs to Warrior's damage and hate tools.

Warrior had advantage in AoE dps and yes, a higher HP pool. But this comes as a larger MP burden to the White Mages as Warrior had next to no sustain. Then there was the hate-loss issue.

The issue was brought to light when the trend among endgame pushed the primary stats instead of the 'ignore your stats, build defense' fad that was giving Paladins the bad name.

I do hope they differ the concept of tanking between the two. Having Paladin being the optimal "I'm tanking the big guy." tank, while Warrior becomes the type to tank adds and serve as dps/secondary tank.

Right now, we have 8 jobs and 8 slots. There's no real reason why we would not have a purpose for each class in a fight.
#43 Feb 11 2013 at 3:41 AM Rating: Good
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scorleone wrote:
Belcrono wrote:
However it sounds like you want paladin/gladiator to be the best choice (correct me if I am wrong, but to me that is what it sounded like from what I quoted) and I think that is almost as bad, and like I mentioned I don't understand the reason for it.

Edited, Feb 10th 2013 4:49pm by Belcrono

Edited, Feb 10th 2013 4:50pm by Belcrono
What you're missing though, is that I also agree all tanks should be created equal. The harsh truth is (in most cases), even if devs intend for them to be equal more often than not one will be considered the best. I don't know how they figure it out (the gaming community), but they always do (through parsing or whatever else you computer geniuses use).

So, all I'm saying is when/if this inequality is discovered, I hope my Pally comes out on top! If SE somehow figures out a way to make them all equally awesome I will be just as thrilled (or more maybe) as if my Pally ends up OP. I would bet all my gil though that within a few months after launch the community will have already labeled the consensus "Best DPS Class" and "Best Tank" in the game - and this always results in class discrimination when using LFG shouts and pick up groups (hence my wishes to be considered the job of choice ^^).


EDIT: added just a little more details at the end there.
Edited, Feb 10th 2013 6:08pm by scorleone

Edited, Feb 10th 2013 6:12pm by scorleone


Well I can understand wanting to be the class that is the prefferred one because of its power compared to ending up on the other side of the fence, everyone wants to feel wanted after all. I think what confused me was just your way of saying it because in the initial part I quoted you say you hope this means they (which I interpereted as the developers) consider it the best tank for the future of ARR. What you say about some classes being different in power does exist for sure, but it should always only be a matter of problem with balancing NEVER a design decision.

Like you said, more often than not there will be a disconnect between reality and the developers' vision, and that is ok, but the vision needs to be a sound one to begin with and should always be the ultimate goal that they strive for. With the way you frased it I thought you think it should be designed so paladins were inherently the best tank, but I guess I misunderstood. English isn't my native language, I apologize for the misunderstading.
#44 Feb 11 2013 at 11:01 AM Rating: Excellent
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Elionara wrote:


^^ I always loved PLD as did Angeal ;) Mr. Corleone hehehe, Narisa /cough/ shall join you soon.

It also depended on the person as well; I never questioned certain players. Such as yourself, Angeal and a select small group. Whatever you guys played on was fine with me :P

I still miss taking on Ifrit on paladin :(

Edited, Feb 10th 2013 5:46pm by Elionara
Hey Narisa! Its been so long since I was active here on Zam that I didn't recognize your name :P. How dare you put me in the same company as Angeal, I am so not worthy of such a status! You are absolutely right, it did depend on the person (entirely). Give a job to any player with a good amount of skill and it can be viewed as OP. Give a job to any player with no skill and it will look like its weak.

I can't wait to see you all again in ARR - I miss every single one of you guys!

Can I get a "mew mew" for old times sake? =)

Hyrist wrote:
Warrior had advantage in AoE dps and yes, a higher HP pool. But this comes as a larger MP burden to the White Mages as Warrior had next to no sustain. Then there was the hate-loss issue.
I agree with some of your post (I wont requote it all so I can keep mine as small as I can). I will say though that I never noticed a problem with hate while using either job and I never had a White Mage complain about running out of MP because I was using a Warrior. I completely agree they were both equal for the most part in dps on single mob battles - the AOE difference was major though (since Paladin had ZERO AOEs =( ).

I don't doubt that you ran into a lot of poorly geared Paladins that helped give them a bad name on your server, in my case I think the majority of the bad Paladins I saw just didn't understand how to play the class. Unfortunately, a lot of players decided to become a tank for the status of being "the guy" but they never spent the time to master the class *facepalm*. I always thought Paladin got its bad name after CC/AV were released. To me, it felt like "the general public" saw everyone using Warriors for speed runs and just assumed Paladins weren't as good - which eventually also turned into, "We don't want a Paladin for any endgame content" *facepalm again*. This happens all the time though with every role in the game. People used to say you couldn't beat the Darkhold unless you brought all archer DPS, they said Ifrit couldn't be won without all Lancer DPS (and some time later that also morphed into "no melee, only ranged.") and the worst of them all - Moogle parties that seemed to change every month. That's not to say I was never guilty of following the crowd though, you could find me sitting in the front seat on most of the bandwagons that rolled through 1.0.

The truth is, every piece of content in 1.0 could be beaten with any setup if the group you were playing with knew how to play the game well. I never meant for my comment about the Paladin to spark such an in depth discussion about this, lol. In the most basic form, I only wanted to express my love for the class and my hopes that it becomes epic in ARR - nothing more.

Belcrono wrote:
With the way you frased it I thought you think it should be designed so paladins were inherently the best tank, but I guess I misunderstood. English isn't my native language, I apologize for the misunderstading.
No, you're right I should have worded that differently - its my English that's lacking, not yours :P. Sometimes I forget just how careful you have to be when posting in forums because of all the heated debates going on everywhere about the game. I did say "I hope they consider it to be the best". I meant to say "they", but I didn't mean to imply that I am a supporter of unbalanced classes. I was just trying to express my love for the Paladin class, nothing deeper than that lol.

To all: Sorry for the wall of text!

TLDR = Scorleone loves Paladin and hopes its epic in ARR, but also is a supporter of having balanced classes and multiple jobs able to perform each role in the game. He didn't mean to start another debate over the 2 jobs (next time I will just yell, "Yay I love Paladin") and he also misses playing with Narisa (Elionara)!

Edit for grammar and tldr...

Edited, Feb 11th 2013 12:47pm by scorleone
#45 Feb 11 2013 at 11:46 AM Rating: Decent
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mew mew~! lol;

I miss all you as well; just pre-ordered 2 copies of the ps3, well... I ordered them 3 years ago lol

I'm still a little miffed wife can't play beta because its 1 beta per seid, not per legacy ffxiv account, but meh When I get back in; count on some destruction of things. PLD was always my favorite and BRD as well.

I still have to update APP to support the plethora of chat changes and such; that's going to be NOT FUN. I'll count on you to test things hehehe

Back on topic however, I notice from the screens the graphics are different than alpha a bit; more refined but that could be just the sizing, can't wait to see how this goes.
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#46 Feb 11 2013 at 11:52 AM Rating: Excellent
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Elionara wrote:
I'm still a little miffed wife can't play beta because its 1 beta per seid, not per legacy ffxiv account



You should make this your sig Smiley: tongue
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#47 Feb 11 2013 at 4:48 PM Rating: Good
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Belcrono wrote:
...
By the way, I usually don't do much rating on here (up or down), but +1s for being able to have a real discussion about something and come to an understanding of what someone was trying to say without getting defensive or upset. (whether you agree with anything I said or not) :D

Elionara wrote:
mew mew~! lol;

I miss all you as well; just pre-ordered 2 copies of the ps3, well... I ordered them 3 years ago lol

I'm still a little miffed wife can't play beta because its 1 beta per seid, not per legacy ffxiv account, but meh When I get back in; count on some destruction of things. PLD was always my favorite and BRD as well.

I still have to update APP to support the plethora of chat changes and such; that's going to be NOT FUN. I'll count on you to test things hehehe

Back on topic however, I notice from the screens the graphics are different than alpha a bit; more refined but that could be just the sizing, can't wait to see how this goes.
I didn't know your wife played 14??? Was she in Divinity? Too bad on the Beta, I guess you'll just have to take turns!
#48 Feb 11 2013 at 6:15 PM Rating: Decent
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scorleone wrote:
Belcrono wrote:
...
By the way, I usually don't do much rating on here (up or down), but +1s for being able to have a real discussion about something and come to an understanding of what someone was trying to say without getting defensive or upset. (whether you agree with anything I said or not) :D

Elionara wrote:
mew mew~! lol;

I miss all you as well; just pre-ordered 2 copies of the ps3, well... I ordered them 3 years ago lol

I'm still a little miffed wife can't play beta because its 1 beta per seid, not per legacy ffxiv account, but meh When I get back in; count on some destruction of things. PLD was always my favorite and BRD as well.

I still have to update APP to support the plethora of chat changes and such; that's going to be NOT FUN. I'll count on you to test things hehehe

Back on topic however, I notice from the screens the graphics are different than alpha a bit; more refined but that could be just the sizing, can't wait to see how this goes.
I didn't know your wife played 14??? Was she in Divinity? Too bad on the Beta, I guess you'll just have to take turns!


She played for about 3000 experience points and dam near killed the monitor/controller. This was back at the actual launch, I since made sure to get 99% of the r/e items on special occasions and PL her up on some jobs but I'm hoping she likes 2.0 ^^

When we got xiv you couldn't order extra tokens so a rep said the only thing we could do to ensure the accounts were "protected" was put both ffxiv accounts under one SEID. If I would have known down the road we would be limited on things like forums, contests and what not; I wouldn't have done that :(

Hopefully when I visit El Segundo later this year maybe some baked goods would help, or perhaps i could weld and mold a special ring to put on yoshi's other hand whereby it would be customized to commemorate his avatars/pics in game lol
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Like Final Fantasy XI, the game specs will be extremely high for the time, but in about 5 years, an average machine can run it on max settings with little to no issues. Tanaka also expressed interest in making a benchmark program available.

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