Subscription FeesFollow

Being a gamer on a budget, I think the clear logic is that people will make a choice on what they enjoy most. I would gladly scrounge an extra $14 to add another MMO subscription to the one I already have. That said, I would probably only do that for a few months at most before making a decision on which I enjoy most and narrow it down to that.

There may be people out there that have the time or money for multiple subscriptions and they'll make their decision based on that, but I think that many people stick to one or two and will choose their best options; the ones they enjoy the most.

I disagree with this comment and now more than ever it's actually been trending the opposite way. Devs have discovered that people will pay for vanity items and that many of the same people are flat out against P2W. It's completely within the realm of possibility that developers can create content to unlock in a cash shop that does nothing more than enhance customization options and still generate enough cash flow to have frequent free content upgrades. As a matter of fact, I'd be willing to wager that this is probably a more lucrative business model; especially if you have a creative team working to make the paid content popular.

I can't agree more. MMO's that are free to play with a cash shop do tend to make more money just because people don't realize how much money they are spending. It's only $2. It's only $4. It all adds up in the end. I had this opinion a couple days ago in electromagnets last thread on the same subject and I got karma bombed. Hopefully you fare better than I did.

Unfortunately, there are just people in these forums who see my name, disregard the content of my posts and spam the red arrow as fast as humanly possible.


Seeing that the game cost SE tens of millions to develop just up to release(over 2 years ago), millions more to repair and re-release(then until ARR comes out) and millions more to develop future content and expansions that follow; I think just breaking even is a much more realistic goal. Consider the following...

If you pay for a product and it's bad you'll probably complain, possibly ask for a refund and almost certainly tell friends and family to avoid it. If you pay for a product and it's great you have no issues paying for it, you are likely to return for more of it and you'll probably tell friends and family.

If you are given something for free and it's bad then you'll probably just stop using it. You're less likely to complain because it cost you nothing and you might warn people about it but since it's free, what have they got to lose for trying it. If you are given something for free and it's great then you're more likely to rave about it to anyone who will listen. Not only that, but if it's an option many people will try to donate just based on the fact that they are getting something they value for nothing.

Take for example League of Legends. Now I know it's not for everyone and this isn't really a plug, but it does make the point quite nicely. I'm still new to the game and getting a feel for how it plays and which champions I like, but I've already made a purchase for RP, the currency they use in their cash shop. I didn't really have any specific plan on how to use the currency, but I made the purchase more as a donation in support of development. I really enjoy the game and I appreciate that it's a free service so even if I don't end up spending the RP, I feel like it was money well spent.

As to your point about F2P with cash shop 'putting the game under', you have to remember that XIV was buy to play for well over a year and the price was lower than it's now decade old predecessor. Poor development and support is what puts games under, not business models. Regardless of which business model they choose, SE needs to put out an offering that draws enough people to the game. F2P > B2P > P2P(in that order) have the best possibility of bringing new players to the game and keeping them there.


Edited, Oct 10th 2012 2:46am by FilthMcNasty

If any of you play Gw2 you will of probably recieved the emails asking people to spend money in the cash shop, it's hard to convince people to spend money when they don't have to.. So unless there are things in the cash shop they have to buy (pay to win) people just won't do it.

I am not a gamer on a budget. I can subscribe to as many sub-based MMOs as I want to (Not that I would do more than one based on time-constraints alone), so that means the decision on where I choose to spend my time and money is made on the quality of the content of the game, its lore, its world. The polish on the mechanics. How well they are thought out.

This was the main reason I cancelled my CE after open beta, and only played one month after I did decide to buy the game in Jan '11. I have absolutely no issue with SE insisting this be a subscription-based game. But if they don't have the content and polish to command the sub in this market, then of course, no one is going to pay, least of all me.

RAHRAH BLAH FIlthMcNasty you just do not understand how the humans operate. Vanity cash shops... you are looking at the 1-5 out of every 1000 players actually spending decent chunks of change int he CS... NOT ENOUGH! Let us look at a real world example

"Excuse me sir, would you like a fresh baked cookie? You can have it for free. Or you can pay 5 bucks so I can make a little profit."

Can I get a show of hands of how many would take the cookie for free? (Everyone raises hand but FilthMcNasty). Are you finally understanding Filth? (FFXIV is the cookie just to clarify...)

PEOPLE WILL NOT PAY FOR WHAT THEY CAN HAVE FOR FREE! There is no point in buying a dumb new hat when it offers no boosts to stats or anything. If it does then the cash shop would be pay to win and you would no longer have any arguments Filth. Like I said, Aion is the ONLY game to do the everything free and vanity cash shop... So I don't know where you get the idea that All games will benefit from this model...

Yes, people will use a stupid vanity cash shop... But not many. It is a fact you must accept. Vanity items are pointless and most people would ONLY partake when they felt like splurging a bit which would be RARELY! You probably think lots of people buy lots of things from cash shops because you see tons of people with a cash shop item in games you play. Most likely that is the only cash shop item they have or they have just a tiny handful because they decided to go "eh, what the heck" and splurge on it. Everyone buying 1 or 2 things will still have the game crash and burn fast.

Vanity cash shop = horrendous idea for FFXIV plain and simple.

Edited, Oct 10th 2012 4:59pm by Banwawgwa

WoW did a subscription model successfully and has continued to do so for near a decade with still the largest population of players of any MMO using any model be it free to play, pay to play, cash shop , etc. All this "subcription models are barriers to entry" is a bogus claim. It is only a barrier to entry of a bad game.

Why do people not want to pay for Guild wars? or SWTOR? or LOTRO? Because they offer nothing unique. They are all sandbox WoW clones with a different franchise attached to it.

"How would you like to quest (run to the green dot on the map and press enter) today Jim? In the Star wars world? The froto world? the matrix!?". No matter which one you play you are playing the same exact thing with a different skin and text dialogue. Absolutely nothing sets them apart.

...THAT is why people are sick of paying for MMOs. I might love cookies. But after I pay for them for several months you eventually they are all the same.

Here's to hoping FFXIV 2.0 is a piece of cake :)

Edited, Oct 10th 2012 5:38pm by electromagnet83

SE problem will arise from the different prices, legacy players will pay half the price, while the majority of the player base(If ARR is successful) will have to pay full price for a product that in the end will be carried on their shoulders, and given how much people like to complain about nothing, considering different payment plans is not nothing well you see where i am going with this.

Also people will pay as long as the game is fun and offers content.

I'm not an accountant for SE, no. Isn't really necessary though. There had been people who were parsing data to find out how many people were playing XIV at various points over the past few years. Even with an enormously generous estimate, if you multiplied the total active characters(which is likely higher than total subscribers due to mules, alternate characters, ect.) and multiplied this number by the subscription fee, the total doesn't even come close to the earnings of other games; even when you are considering this figure without operational costs like development, server upkeep, ect.

That's beside the point though. All I am trying to say here is that F2P doesn't doom games to failure. Ban doesn't like the idea of it and he or she obviously doesn't care for vanity items. That doesn't remove the possibility for the game not only to survive, but to thrive. Jus' sayin'

FYI companies like SE release reports on their earnings and they're made public. You can google 'Square Enix Holdings' and find most of, if not all of the information needed.

Disclaimer: Do so at your own risk as it may cause you to spiral into a deep depression

Good post and I think you're right. The F2P won't necessarily doom the game. I personally don't care for vanity items however and as someone pointed out earlier, paying for items that improve stats would be unfair, especially in a PVP arena. I think Square's entire approach to the MMO genre is much different than other companies however. It's not all about getting in and raping the system through 50 levels and getting the cool gear (even though that happens). They try to make an engaging and persistent online STORY that continues to unfold. Doing so requires an insane amount of labor costs. I don't feel a F2P model would really work at first because whereas other MMOs deliver new "quests" and Level caps, Square's aim is to deliver new content, rich with artistically developed CGI cutscenes like the offline counterparts.

In short, I think their goal is too ambitious to work with a free 2 play model. Unless they want to let people gamble with real money at the Golden Saucer ;)

No no no no no Filth... I pointed out that they are different games for a reason. You overlook my arguments completely then give some bogus one. Let me explain. You cannot use LoL and XIV for your example because they are two different games catering to two different audiences. Just because LoL is free does not mean I'll ever play it. It looks horrible. I will gladly pay for XIV than play LoL. Do you understand!?! They target two different audiences so what model each are using is irrelevant... its if they can attract THEIR OWN SEPARATE AUDIENCES!

Goodness... You should pay attention to what you are reading.

Well I tried telling you that f2p with cash shop doesn't necessarily mean doom... But perhaps vanity cash shop does. I like LotRO cash shop. Need it to buy certain quest packs, skirmishes, monster classes, convenience items (all swift travels, cosmetics, fancy mounts, speed up traits, etc...) They are by no means items that make any character "better" than any other... they just speed up leveling process. These items are actually WORTH a buy because they give a benefit but are not needed. But since they offer something useful they will be bought and they ARE! A crap vanity only thing... with low population of XIV... It is a huge gamble that is not worth the risk. You can only HOPE that people will buy it lol... but in reality they probably WON'T! but again you keep disregarding all my arguments, so what can I do? I tried.

And when comparing a f2p cash shop game with XIV sub model... You also need to look at the quality of the game. The world, the graphics, the content available. All straight f2p games will cower in comparison to XIV or any p2p... All previously p2p games now with cash shop can actually stand ground against it. But like I said, the ONLY game to do pure vanity is Aion... so idk why you think the fact that that is successful is the end all be all of proof. All other p2p now f2p have the LotRO model and they have all boosted their numbers from it too. LotRO model would be best for XIV, not vanity shop. END OF STORY! You will probably disregard everything I say in this though.

I agree wholeheartedly with a lot of what electromagnet83 has said. I've supported FFXI up to 2010 and FFXIV since early beta and dived into GW2 a couple of days after it launched. While GW2 is a great game I enjoyed playing that has a lot of high points its novelty however ran out for me in about two weeks after I started playing and I actually found myself going back to play FFXIV more. Perhaps its because I am contributing to it per month that increases my attachment to it. Whereas with GW2 my logic upon paying the cost of entry is to stay within that free-to-play scenario. Some interesting discussion is going back and forwards with some valid points on both sides, but I think when everything is said and done what really drives people to play a game is if they are getting something out of it. Everyone has their own threshold to what they are willing to pay to satisfy their entertainment need.

I don't think I will ever understand the mindset of some current mmo players. How can one expect a game company to spend millions of dollars and countless hours creating a top notch mmo then give out the software for free and allow players to play without ever being required to give the company a dime? Video game development is not cheap and neither is maintaining servers. Do people honestly expect companies to create great games, keep servers up, and continue to create content all for them to play 100% free?

Sandpark, you can't use WoW as an example. It launched after XI and (quite obviously) has a much larger player base which is locked into the experience. You have to look at more recent MMO's, Vaanguard, WAR, LOTRO, SWO, DCUO, etc... IMO these games only have one fault, they didn't lock in the player base fast enough. There's nothing wrong with the subscription model, you just have to keep people engaged long wnough that they form bonds that make it hard for them to sever ties with the game.

F2P games are usually what I use for my second MMO, something I jump into when my friends aren't on in my paid one. There's nothing wrong with them, I just generally feel that the box copy games with subs tend to give me a bit more of the experience I want. I don't have a financial obligation to spend time in those worlds either, so I tend not to get as involved in the social aspects of those games.

Okay. Hopefully this can be worth the read.


While I can understand the fundamental aspects of a subscription model [- the philosophy of getting what you pay for, along with content updates and the appropriate 'AAA Quality Level' aspect about paying per month for a video game -] the times are changing. I used to be a hardcore flag bearer of keeping the monthly sub in MMO's. Not anymore.

Back in the day, there wasn't really that much of a choice between what kind of MMO's you would of liked to play. There were games like UO, Ragnarok, EQ I, FFXI, SWG, and that was about it. Each game only had about 200-500k people subbed at a time. MMO's were a lot more hardcore and focused on a much more narrow demographic then they are now.

The thing was, back then, it was considered a massive undertaking to join and play a MMO. It was less like a gaming habit, or a genre preference, and more like an entire hobby all together different from normal video gaming. I knew a guy all throughout grade school that played FFXI every single night, grew up around very close online friends revolving around that game, and genuinely met his girlfriend there, whom he is now married and happily living with her under one home. I knew another friend who spent his entire grade school years playing SWG, and formed a very close bond with his server, and his friends, and accumulated hours upon hours upon impossible hours of 'stuff'.

When you joined a MMO in the last generation, it was like making one hell of a commitment. Sure, you were expected to pay per month, but back then, that was a big deal. It was a BIG deal to pay for playing a game, and since there was pretty much one, or, at the highest, two, kinds of games that would target the audience you specifically belong in, that little choice basiclly nudged you into a certain game, and you played that game for many, many years, therefore experiencing true fulfillment, proudly investing your money into a world you believe in, being far worth it considering your experiences playing the game.

Ten years later, things are different. The incredible surge of MMO's on the market, and the incredible amounts of failure, and overall controversial moves made by developers, publishers, investors, and even consumers, have changed the landscape. We now have a huge plethora of choices to make regarding what MMO we would like to invest our time in. This, along with the insane amount of failures experienced in launches, cliches formed in the western/eastern markets (Hotbars vs. Grinding) , and the perhaps too successful World of Warcraft, have basically imploded the MMO machine into a clingy mess of too much, and never good enough.

Nowadays, every gamer is beginning to get their hands on MMO's. MMO's are becoming less of a lifestyle, and more of a genre choice, just like FPS's, just like single player RPG's. In which there are many to choose from, and a large, diverse community with different interests and tastes. The problem now lies in the idea of

1.) Trying different games... and

2.) Sticking to games that interest you.


Most of the time when I play MMO's, I want to play more then one. FFXIV for the environment, story, and community. DAoC or Darkfall for PVP. GW2 for the dynamic events and WvWvW, etc. And usually, it is also much, much harder to find a great community that I belong in. It is unlike the yesteryears because unlike the yesteryears where we adapted to the games we played because we realisticlly had little choice in the matter, nowadays, what a MMO usually lacks, or doesn't have, or doesn't have in a way that suits your interests, usually another MMO has what the other one lacks.

And the reason why I left all of those games except for GW2 is because GW2 is the only game on that list where I don't have to pay a sub fee for. Every other game, I would play, then stop playing, then feel guilty about not playing because I was paying for it and therefore creating more stress/pressure for myself that I really didn't need more of.

So now, let's talk about me. I'm the type of guy that is looking for the MMO that has all of my tastes all wrapped up in one sweet looking package. If I could take GW2's sidequest and WvWvW, Darkfall's hardcore looting system, give it the visuals, tastes, and appeal of FFXIV, and TOR's main quest storytelling, and blend that all into one game, THAT, to me, would be a MMO to pay $15 for in 2012. A time period in which we are flooded with choices and quite literally spoiled to death with them.

Since no MMO's have done like what SWG have done for me in the past (and what most MMO's did for people ten years ago) , which is, allow complete fulfillment in being part of the world and knowing people within the world and feeling like the experiences playing there would amount to $1500 a month, not just $15, I simply cannot, and do not, want to pay $15 a month for a MMO I will play for a month, then not touch for a month, then go back for another week, and not touch it for a week.

I switch back and forth between MMO's now, and sometimes even play two/three at once, because I like the pvp from 'x', and the pve from 'y', and the art style from 'z', and the world from etc. ...

I am not going to pay.. $15, $30, $45.. ish.. not to mention the $60 retail price for buying the game in the first place (which by the way, GW2's f2p system isn't truely f2p, as base game costs $60 and it isn't 'free to download').


The time of picking one system and completely committing yourself to it is over. Perhaps the last remannt of that fanbase can be found in UO, the first EQ, and, perhaps... FFXI. We are now living in an era where people can no longer accept paying a monthly fee for a game, and it's starting to show, in the failure of AoC, TOR, Aion, TERA, Rift, etc to keep healthy numbers. Especially TORtanic, which was a real wake-up call for all devs. One the main reasons of their failure was the sub fee. People are even starting to shy away from the big, hairy, mean, scary, $60 game, going for the $10, $20, $30 Steam sales, and the Indy Games instead. Games like Mount and Blade, a $30 game, gave me much more fulfilling experiences then the $60 Battlefield 3.


Having a sub fee will hurt more then help FFXIV. It is no longer 2003, nor is it 2007. Plain and simple, FFXIV having a sub fee scares me. I am afraid they will scare off a bunch of potential customers because it will be a sign of the times that Japan is living up to their stereotype of not evolving.

And that's a huge concern coming from somebody who cares. Now being a full time college student, I will have to seriously consider whether or not this game will truly be worth my $15.

And I wish I didn't have to make that choice.

I was expecting an intellectual response. Instead I get a Street Fighter reference which is lol-worthy (I'm more of a DOA/Tekken guy?) and a change of the subject. Along with the assumption that I am attacking game developers. You really smell like a FF fanboy now.

Moving on from that, we all know EA is evil but 'evilness' is not the issue. It's adapting to the changing factor of consumer demand. I'm not attacking Squeenix for using a sub model. I'm, however, saying their rate of failure is much more significant if they do so.

Don't convince yourself into thinking everyone who plays MMO's have the same opinion as you about PVP (I can say right now, you are the extreme minority) or sub fees. Hell if Squeenix wants to charge a fee just to watch their subs bleed only to eventually go into a F2P model in the future like so many others have been then let them. Or slowly burn and die if they can't swallow their pride and evolve. Because that's what is going to happen if they have a sub model. All of the hype in the world is a 50/50 gamble at best. Because it's a pain to just get people to be interested enough to try FFXIV: ARR after the absolute disaster that was FFXIV, how much of a pain do you imagine to get new people playing if they have to sign their credit cards up to the deal?






Edited, Oct 14th 2012 3:17pm by BainStriker

^^ If by unique you mean backward and totally outdated we agree.

Because Banwawgwa, when people like Ostia hear the word "MMO" they can't accept the normal ebb and flow of every other game on the planet. They expect quests that start and finish by you following a green dot on your map. They expect the control scheme to be that kind where you can rotate your character in place without him moving his feet. They expect that the world will be a sandbox carbon copy of every other MMO with a different franchise skin draped over it. Basically, they expect to be able to sit down at any MMO, and be a master at it because, low and behold, it is exactly like every other one that has ever come out ever.

Sorry, not sure why people like him hear "MMO" and can't fathom an offline Final Fantasy (or mass effect, prince of persia, ocarina of time, god of war, silent hill, resident evil, alan wake, fallout 3, batman arkham city, etc) style control scheme and battle system with maybe a few quests that actually require you to figure out rather than simply following a green dot on a map.

It has to be exactly what he's used to - a WoW clone in sandbox world covered in a facade painted with the franchise of his choice, boasting a shallow story and quest system (which sums up all current MMOs - or he won't be happy. For Ostia it's not about good story, solid mechanics (where it actually seems like you're making contact with the mob during melee), or loyal players. It is about jumping into something he knows exactly how to play, spending 6 months raiding for the cool gear, saying "ha I'm better than you," and then moving on to the next cookie cutter MMO.

Does that answer your question Banwawgwa?

Edited, Oct 15th 2012 1:24am by electromagnet83

No Ostia. FFXIV bombed because the landscapes were copy paste and empty, leve quest and leveling were empty, quests were a stumble through the dark (yeah we should figure them out... but to some degree we need to be thrown a bone lol), and overall the game was empty and worthless... That is what I saw anyway. I had no grudge against combat system or the UI. In fact they can do everything they are doing in XIV including update skill animations and keep combat and UI the same and I would still play it cuz i saw no problems in it. I don't think electromagnet was making XIV to be pinnacle of mmos... (even though 2.0 may be on track for that...) but he was saying it is ridiculous to label the gameplay of the game as outdated and backward. The FF mmos are generally harder than other mmo's out there, and XIV is unique in how the job and class system work (combining skills), in its combat system (no other mmo has combat like it... take it or leave it i suppose), and the more heavy story based quests (other than leve quests).

I think you are just summing up EVERYTHING in the game into one and since you have labeled it crap you are labeling everything about it crap. But that is not the case and you need to look at elements separately. Everyone has their preferences so maybe you do not like how FFXIV plays... so be it, but you cannot deny it is quite a step from something like WoW, and please, no need for comments like "yeah, a step in the wrong direction" or anything uselessly attacking XIV further.

Like i tried saying lol... To each their own. Other people couldn't handle the UI and what not and rage quit the game. I found no problem with it. And just because their were 1000s more quests in vanilla WoW does not mean their was a tremendous story. Most of those quests were "kill 10 naga and 15 murlocks to get some exp." so no... tons of quests is not story driven. And their has not only been one FF mmo... as we can clearly see... there are TWO! And the first one is really story oriented, however with abyssea it is my understanding that most of that is skipped now :(. But in 2.0 it sounds like they will return to story quests.

Honestly... wtf is the point of this argument? everything wrong with the game will be fixed in 2.0 so idk what there is to complain about.

Haha yeah... from just the videos I have seen of gameplay, I don't see how it can't :P. Skill animations look great, world is beautiful, housing system sounds spot on, chocobo raising/riding/fighting :P, and leveling will take longer which is a good thing, quests will be easier to navigate and are taking a more story approach, etc, etc...

It shall indeed be epic!

As much as I love FF and Square, Ostia is right in that last line (only). FFXIV sucked in the end. FFXI did it right. The only thing that made FFXI suck was it's notoriously arduous party-based grind. I know the point of MMOs is to play with other people but it was such that if you didn't, you couldn't progress. And my God who can forget waiting an hour or 2 when you were ready to go to sleep, waiting for someone to come join your party in Valkurm Dunes only for the first battle to result in widespread death and everyone quitting.

Ostia, at least give FFXIV 2.0 a realm reborn a try. It needs all the support it can get!

I am giving it my support, i have an active subscription of the game, and i play once in a while, when i am bored or i wanna check updates, i am not bashing 2.0 for nobody has played it, i am simply stating that FFXIV is not an unique or innovative game, wich is a fact. That is all.

As for wow and XIV story wise, wow does has a lot of story, probably more story/lore than both XI and XIV combined, that is a fact. The difference is in the presentation, Wow does not make you watch 50 scenes in order to progress, they whoever have started to add a few scenes in major plot points to present their story in a better way, but the story was already there in the form of text, now if you do not like to read, and just press X and miss it, that is your own fault, you cannot then turn and say "Oh X game had no story line, because it dint had scenes" Look at Xenosaga for example, It was a tittle that had to live up to the expectations set by Xenogears, and the franchise failed, because of heavy scene's that at times took half hours, move 3 steps another 15 mins of scenes, where Xenogears, had what ? 3-6 scenes in the entire game, and is considered one if not the best RPG ever made.

Also i might be a bit bias towards XIV story and concept because to me, they are relying to much into the main series, unlike XI where it was a stand alone game, with it's own lore and story.