Red MagesFollow

I for one will pick up whatever class closest resembles the the RDM from FFXI. I don't play FFXI currently but when I did it fit my play style perfectly. I was able to dabble in all those aspects of gameplay when it the time was right, thought yeah seemed to be a little more caster heavy but I think that is something that is going to be hard to get away from as the range of spells available was what made the RDM able to fill all the different roles.
I think what happened as what happens the longer an MMO goes on is that people figured out what each class did best and emphasized it to and extreme. What probably saved the RDM from being thrown to the side infavor of the traditional jobs was it enfeebling and enhancing spells, which I would love to see back as well.

Maybe this time around along with the spells there can be a little more emphasis on a variety of skills that allow them to perform all those rolls.

rdm is by far and wide the most amazingly well designed class I have ever had the pleasure of playing. Most complain because when they played the game they limited their rdm to only healing 6 man groups. Oh I feel sorry for your wasted potential.

Short of popping 1k evisceration on a regular basis I was able to solo like a blm, solo like a bst, solo better than a nin, and sub blu to take zero damage from 20 or so campaign mobs. And it was all based on my personal skill first and foremost then my gear came in at a close second. If things went poorly I had options, if things went well I had options.. If I decided that I didnt feel like dieing to Zeral jas pichuka even though I was alone I had that option. If I felt like soloing HNMs it was me vs them..

Ahhh yeah
hehehe

rdm was but a fluke much similar to the old days of bst solo. Never reproducible entirely. Butterfly wings. However definitely an example of how people will always find SOMETHING to complain about hahaha

"But I cant deal damage like a warrior QQ!!!!"

There is little doubt in my mind this will be my first choice in the new game.

Edited, Jun 11th 2009 12:21am by thorazinekizzez

I'll be the first to admit. I got owned. I had no idea people were doing that with them. I played back at NA launch and not much after that and I had always heard and seen them take a more backseat caster role.

Considering how melee centric FFXI is, I have always been pretty happy with the RDM as a mage, and not a generic "do everything" character.

When I think of a "melee mage," DNC or BLU were both very well designed. I would like to see (in some form) a job like RDM. Some one who can heal, buff, debuff, and even occasionally nuke, is already a pretty complete character. I don't want to see melee ability complicate the picture even more.

That doesn't mean that there's no room for melee/caster hybrids such as DNC or BLU. I just don't want to see RDM become that.

While it's not the class I'm going to choose, I absolutely agree that RDM have been one of the defining classes of the FFXI series. Even though they weren't a Min/Max class in FF1, I nearly always took a RDM in my party. Theme wise, it has always been one of my favorite characters.

Edited, Jun 11th 2009 1:56am by digitalcraft

Nope, that's a 2005 argument debunked a long time ago when we realized how stupid it was fighting IT++ mobs.


^That's the real problem. I'd say it'd be easy to fix too.

I'd think a better distribution of roles amongst the classes would help in a big way. Giving the group a benefit from having a melee RDM (a buff of some sort or a resource boost) would also be a large help. Then you'd just have to balance their damage to be somewhere acceptable.

Actually SE just didn't know how optimizing people would be. They didn't expect people to keep refresh and haste on at all time, just occasionally when they felt like the MP was good and they had been swinging their swords a while.

SE expected people to play for fun, not to be efficient. But they also designed the game to be as slow as possible for people playing it the best way. The end result was that everyone went for the best way, and "fun" was left to rot.




Basically SE needs to focus more on fun and less on buffing. If haste only improved exp per hour by 400 exp, then nobody would insist on haste cycle. Buffs sadly need to be very minor. At the same time inviting a buffer can't harm your exp, or buffers would never be welcome.

In other words party size should NEVER effect growth/hour in XIV. Killing speed should also not count OR be very hard to speed up. That is the only way to not make XIV "Best job fantasy XIV".

Well..
These are the same people who believed at some point that we would sometimes happen upon Argus while adventuring!

"HAY GUYS! we just happened to be the right level and explored this totally awesome cave one day and bam a really strong monster named argus attak us LOL! HE DROP MAGIC ITEM LOLOLOLOLOLOL"

"Woah I need to seriously buy this game guys! Did you just hear that totally amazing story about argus and the 4 wandering adventurers who were suddenly locked in dire combat! They totally didn't expect it to happen LOLOLOL"

"OMG DID LOGIC SURVIVE!!?"

"No he was the first to be slayed by a firaga 2... BUT THE REST OF THEM LIVED!!"

So yes .. I can buy into the idea that what ever semblance of balance that did occur in FFXI were merely by chance. BST was NOT a solo class after all..

Edited, Jun 12th 2009 12:31am by thorazinekizzez

I somewhat disagree with both of you.

I don't think the RDM specifically should be a class that is too caught up in refresh cycles, buffing, and debuffing to do anything else. I think that many players had a different concept of how RDM would function in a party than how it turned out in FFXI, and that SE should probably try to make any RDM type weapon/class (whatever they're doing) fit more with player expectations. I think most players want to melee as a RDM, and I think SE should make that viable.

However, I don't disagree with the idea that there is an either-or choice on buffing aan fun. I don't agree that buffs should be very minor. I do think it would be perfectly acceptable for buffing to keep a single player busy all throughout combat, as long as that is what the class is designed to do and that is what players expect of it.

I really liked playing BRD in FFXI. I really like buffing people up and debuffing enemies down, while doing some minor support healing/pulling/CC on the side. If there was an archetype in FFXIV whose only job was buffing and debuffing, never hitting the mob and never directly healing anyone, I would play that archetype and I would enjoy it greatly. However, I don't think players that want to play RDM should be forced to do that when it seems so many of them have a different concept of RDM.
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I have two different, but not completely separate, thoughts on how RDM might be implemented in FFXIV.

1. RDM should take a page out of the book of WoW druids. Red mages are known for melee, white magic, and black magic. I think RDM should be able to be on par withe the best melee in the game. I think they should be on par with the best caster in the game. I don't think they should be able to do both simultaneously, otherwise they would be overpowered. In FFXI RDM could swap out it's role instantly with a gear change. In the very same fight you could wear the best melee gear you could or the best caster gear you could. This kind of swapping is prevented by talent trees in WoW (though recently dual specs have been implemented). Druids in WoW that want to do melee DPS choose to do melee DPS. They can cast, but they aren't nearly as good at it as other casters. They can become quite good at it if they choose to spec as a boomkin or restoration druid. This choice prevents them from being all things all the time.

2. The phrase "jack of all trades, master of none," is thrown around a lot in RDM discussion. I think many players have the expectation that RDM will always incorporate flexibility as part of its role. I think what people would hate to see in reference to my previous suggestion, is that a melee RDM spend all of his time meleeing while a caster RDM spends all his time casting. I think people expect and want a crossover for RDM, both melee and casting. So give them the best of both worlds. Let them do both activities while still choosing one type to specialize in.

The way I see this being implemented is that perhaps a melee DPS RDM doesn't just melee. He uses spells to augment his melee. Something like the en line of spells that adds elemental damage to his attacks. Maybe he also casts spells that help make his attacks more accurate or the mob weaker to his chosen element. The point is that he is a good melee RDM BECAUSE he uses spells. This way he is not overpowered, because he is not so good at spell like Thunder 3 or Curaga 4, he's not a straight caster. He specializes in spells that make him good at melee, so he is still both a meleer and a spellcaster.

The other side of the coin is a caster RDM who is good at spell casting BECAUSE he melees. Maybe when he hits a mob he draws their essence into his blade and uses it to power up his thundaga 3 spell. Maybe he uses his blade to channel spells as he stabs an enemy so that he gets increased damage from being point blank and in direct contact rather than from distance. He's still primarily a caster. He uses Blizara 2 and Cure 5, and he's not good at melee dps. But he's a good caster BECAUSE he melees.

Edited, Jun 13th 2009 4:15am by Allegory

Not necessarily. Buffers/debuffers can have their abilities scaled to equal the contribution of a party member they replace.

Let us pretend the typical party of 6 players is 1 healer, 1 tank, and 4 dps. Let's also rate each of these roles as equally important for the sake of simplicity. The 6 members together grant a total of 6 utility (1 per person). If a buffer/debuffer joins the group, say replacing a dps, they instantly fall down to 5 utility, because there is 1 tank, 1 healer, and only 3 dps, with the bard not directly contributing to anything. All the bards spells should make each party member 20% (1/5) stronger than they would normally be. So not you have 1.2 tank, 1.2 healer, and 3.6 DPS. That equals a total utility of 6.

This way a buffer/debuffer isn't overpowered. He makes a 5 person party as strong, and ONLY as strong, as a 6 person party.

Bard spells, at least when I was playing in FFXI, were too strong. Accuracy was so very important because you need it to gain tp and IT++ were hard to hit. They could even give rangers ACC buffs, which was a class largely considered to be the top DPS at the time. This made bard into something more than nice to have, but a necessity for top exp gain.



I am glad to hear that we agree a lot on what changes should be made to RDM. I personally don't intend to play RDM, but I was not a stranger to the angst they felt at having their role so drastically changed by SE from what they expected. I want RDM to be a class that people who want to play it want it to be.

I like were that idea is going.

Maybe something were as you say the spells and attacks arn't as powerful as the pure jobs but a RDM can do them at the same time.
Like being on the front lines swinging away on the mob, doing less melee dmg then the melee dps but at the same time able to cast spells that don't stop his melee attacks. So the RDM wouldn't do the same melee dps as a melee dps or the same spell dps as a pure caster but being able to do both at the same time would equate to the total dps of one of the others.

That was what I was implying.

What RDM is in FFXI is what should have been a GRM (Green Mage). Don't have to eliminate the playstyle of the FFXI RDM, but that playstyle really doesn't represent what a RDM is. Add more variety by having both playstyles in FFXIV.

Doublecast and/or "Meleecast" (for a lack of a better term ATM) being an utterly basic and job-defining RDM skill that you would be expected to use constantly, would go a very long way towards allowing RDM to be competitive as a damage dealer and a backup-healer (while damage dealing), in the playstyle that has been traditionally associated with Red Mages.

Probably would have to be something along the lines of a job trait/ability that you gain at very low levels, but unlike normal job traits, you wouldn't be able to use it as a subjob (Did they ever verify if subjobs would be in FFXIV or not?)

I like that term "Meleecast", but agree that it might be better to have the buff/debuff spells be the focus of another class.

Another thing I like about the FFXI RDM was the fast cast traits. I think that relates a bit to what were talking about being able cast lesser spells more often.

The issue is that you idea has fundamental problems with being balanced. Shifting the numbers around won't solve the problems I'm bringing up.

It's true we don't know any details, but it's not hard to make guesses based on previous final fantasy games and existing MMOs.

In general, there are separate magic and melee damage stats. Most final fantasy and MMORPGs I know of have some variation of the intelligence and strength stats. While a warrior can afford to go 50 str and 0 int, and a black mage can go 50 int and 0 str, rdm must split it up somehow to around 25 str and 25 int. The itemization for implementing the class as you suggested has certain severe problems.

There actually is a way to help fix/alleviate this.The class could utilizes talents/abilities/innates to derive some spell power from str or some attack power from int. WoW offers a very similar feature in many of their classes talent trees to help adjust itemization for the class. However, I doubt SE is really the type to implement such a system, and outside of WoW the concept isn't used much.

Yes, but in your system items can NOT be balanced for RDM, not without some fancy adjustment like getting spell power from strength or melee power from int.

No it couldn't. I didn't miss the meleecasting part. Half my post was about your meleecast system, I guess YOU missed that. You're not seeing the problem. Let me try to show it to you mathematically. I'm using 3 assumptions here, but I think you will agree that both assumptions are extremely reasonable and necessary.

1. Assumption: magic damage classes have to have similar output to melee damage classes. If either magic DPS or melee DPS was inherently better than the other we'd have major balance issues beyond RDM to deal with.

2. Assumption: RDM cannot be better at magic damage than a full caster or better at melee damage than a full meleer. A black magic double casting RDM cannot be strong than a BLM.

3. Assumption: RDM's total contribution to the party has to be similar to that of any other party member. So for example, whether he does it through black magic, melee, or half and half, his damage output has to be equal to that of any of dpser.

Let's say the the black magic spell "Ice 1" does 20 damage with a 2 second cast time, this is what black mages will be casting constantly. Let's say a sword swing does 10 damage every 1 second by a melee dps like dark knight. Both have a similar DPS of 10 damage per second. Now a double casting RDM will double cast his ice spell for 20 damage also with a 2 second cast time. This makes a black double casting RDM on par with a blm. Since the double casting rdm spend all his time casting, he doesn't do any melee damage, so his total dps is 10, which is similar to other classes.

A RDM who "meleecasts" his ice spell will do half the damage of a double casting RDM. So his ice spell does 10 damage with a 2 second cast time. After that he takes a melee swing, and alternates between casting and melee. His melee swing does half the damage of a normal meleer because is a is also casting spells. So 5 damage every 1 second.

His average DPS is (10/2 + 5/1)/2, which is 5 DPS, compared to the double casting RDM doing 10 dps. You can't simply change the numbers here to fix this. IF you increase the magic damage of a meleecasting RDM then you also NECESSARILY increase the magic damage of a double casting RDM, which makes him overpowered.

The problem with a meleecasting RDM is that he can't melee and cast at the same time. When you half his magic damage to let him melee then he spends the same amount of time to cast a spell as a double casting RDM but for only half damage.

Edited, Jun 14th 2009 5:11pm by Allegory

As I've said before, I feel the class needs hard lines drawn in order for it to perform multiple roles. RDM and the WoW Paladin have taught me that a class that can do everything at once is always going to be inferior in the content that matters, and that it's next to impossible to make a true hybrid work in an MMO. That's why Pallies these days are restricted through gear and talent trees, but I can't think of anything that would segregate RDM roles outside of a stance mechanic, especially since we don't know how gear and stats would work out in XIV.

Other restrictions that could be used would be increased cast time or increased MP cost on beneficial spells (cures and such) if the RDM is in "melee/damage mode", with maybe a proc that makes such spells instant cast or reduced MP cost so that they can support a healer but not be able to fully shift into healer mode.

I mean, if square can make a hybrid work this time around, more power to them, but seeing recent history, my money is not on it.

Sub paladin and use Vorpal blade!

+ make a few macros with melee gear.

I see where the confusion arose. You said "Another possibility might be a Red Mage ability that allows them to cast spells without negatively impacting melee attacks, but locks them out of using Double Cast." And later you said "I think you also missed the part where I talked about "Meleecast" as another option. I was suggesting that RDMs could be given basically two modes they could switch between. One that would allow them to doublecast, and one that would allow them to cast single spells while meleeing without a penalty."

I assumed this to meant meant "melee without penalty" to be the same as the double cast trait. When a RDM is double cast mode he trades stronger magic for much weaker melee, single cast mode would remove this penalty. This was my mistake.

Edited, Jun 14th 2009 6:32pm by Allegory

I should have asked more question before making assumptions.

MNK, DRG, RNG, and DRK don't have this problem. They are equal in DPS, but none of them fulfills another role equally well. If a Monk could DPS as well as other DPS classes and tank as well as a paladin then why would anyone take DRG over MNK? MNK would do just as much damage, but if it happened to pull hate then there'd be no problem.

WoW avoids the issue in two ways. First a hybrid like druid or paladin can't be all things at all times. A druid can do great melee DPS, and I think they are actually topping melee DPS in the current raid scene, but they're can shift out can instantly start doing top spell damage. They specced for melee dps, and so while they can do healing or magic damage it's not going to be nearly as good as a class built for it or a druid specced in it. Paladin are the same way. A protection paladin CAN heal, but a holy paladin is much better at it.

Secondly, WoW uses buffs, debuffs or other systems to give hybrids utility. Shadow priests don't simply DPS, they're mana batteries for the group as well.

But so far no one has said that. If you want to include utility beyond simple damage dealing and healing then great, but you have to say so explicitly.

That is not the point. The point is that the RDM can do either equally well at any time.

If you need need a magic dpser for your party you would have a choice between BLM or RDM. In the given example both are equally effective at this role and are really clones of each other. As long as you need only magic dps then they are both equal. However, if you get an extra addor perhaps your main healer lags out then the RDM could switch to healing on the fly while the BLM cannot. This give the RDM far greater usefulness to the party than a BLM. There needs to be some friction to keep RDM from being the best at everything all the time.

No a RDM can't do both at the same time, but he could do either as well as anyone which is a problem.

But you can't respec in the middle of a fight. If your resto druid goes down in a fight a ret paladin can't instantly swap over to holy and take over healing mid fight.

From what SE has done with XI over the past few years, I think they're getting better at designing hybrid classes. COR, BLU, and DNC are all great examples of how hybrid classes can be made effective.

COR's buffing abilities are instant cast, with a long recast timer, to ensure they aren't locked into support full time. Then, they are given access to good DD weapons and equipment which make it worthwhile to perform a non-support role.

Most of BLU's spells are very short casting, with very short range, meaning they have to be up in the frontline. Also, many of their spells get bonuses based on the tp they have, so their melee actually enhances their spellcasting.

DNC also has instant support abilities, combined with the fact that their abilities are fueled by their meleeing.


What about RDM? Their spells all take significant amounts of time to cast, and they have to cast support spells multiple times. Also, melee does nothing for casting abilities. RDM in FFXI was designed for either/or, while the above 3 hybrids were designed to do both at the same time. This, I think is the biggest issue people have with XI's incarnation of RDM.

If SE wants a RDM to truly make use of its entire skill set, then it needs to design it that way. It needs spells to enhance it's melee, or melee to enhance its spells, or something to encourage both aspects to be used, rather than restrictions to one, when the other is in use.



Personally, I hope SE scraps RDM and restructures it completely in XIV.