Learning from WoWFollow

Just...not even going to go there. Can we try to limit this thread to one can of worms every 2-3 days please?

You don't know what you're talking about. My half-blue hunter has been known to kill people wearing Arena epics and out-dps people in full raid epics.

Is this common? Nope, but it happens. And let's not pretend that an AH WAR will ever out-dps one with a full Salvage set.

My theory is that you just suck at PvP. Nothing wrong with that, mind you, but don't pretend that it was just gear holding you down.

Well, no, my main disagreement is that there's a big difference in the effects of skill and gear in either game. In both, you have similar situations. If you have two equally geared and skilled characters, they will perform similarly. If they have equal skill but one outgears the other, the better gear will prevail. If they have equal gear, the more skilled player will usually prevail. If a window-licker with spectacular gear goes up against a skilled player with average gear, the skilled player will win.

It's probably fair to say that the gear disparities in WoW can be larger, but that is offset by the fact that good gear is easier to come by. Someone wearing quest greens in WoW will likely by torn apart in BGs, but he'll be wearing blues and purples before too long.

We should be clear about what constitutes "skill" in an MMO. In this context, skill is really knowledge and tactics. It's a measure of how well a player knows their own abilities and limitations, as well as those of their opponents, whether PC or mob. To say that WoW doesn't have that, but FFXI does, is absurd.

As a Hunter in PvP, I know that as long as I can keep that Warrior more than 25 yards away, he can't touch me. How do I use my abilities to prevent him from closing in? That's skill. In Pve, if I'm fighting Kel'Thuzad, I know that during phase 2 I have to stay at least 10 yards away from anyone else, and be ready to move out of his red ring of death, while maintaining an optimal shot rotation for maximum damage output.

As an RDM in FFXI, in ballista, I know that I have to strip shadows before I can do damage, but my only native means of eliminating them all, diaga, will prevent me from sleeping them. What's my best option for getting the kill, play defensively and take shadows one by one, or strip them all at once and try to zerg? That's skill. In Pve, I know that I must stay on that wyrm's front toes, but when things go sour should I delay my buff rotation for emergency heals, or should I let a dps go down so I can keep the tank hasted?

Honestly, I don't see a big difference.

Edited for spelling

Edited, Jun 5th 2009 5:58am by MrSenethSomed

Sure go ahead.



I guess, go on.



I think so, go on Master Yoda.



No don't worry Master Yoda, please go on.



Go on Master Yoda.



Ah you bashing the outdoor bosses in FFXI? Don’t worry Master Yoda, there are a lots and lots of other high end activities in FFXI that you don’t need to camp for.



Master Yoda I have a news flash for you, its called a hardcore MMO with grind beeing part of the game.



You seem to take a real liking for Vrtra are you Master Yoda? ^^



I still don’t get your point, but keep going.



..... get to the point please ....



That is your way to see progression, but not according to FFXI, again there are different types of progression. All the drabble you lined up was saying basically do it WoW style progression, and yet again no thanks.



A WoW copy.



Again that is the reason, in if you don’t like how things are, you can play WoW, that suits your taste better.

Edited, Jun 5th 2009 9:29am by Maldavian

LMAO. FFXI was designed based on the concept of teamwork. That is the only reason. Respawn times have nothing to do with PS2 Limits nor do monster level. Even when ffxi first came out it had jobs that could solo to 75. Don't even how instances would even play a factor into the group equation for xping but whatever.



The subject of this post is learning from WoW, even their mistakes believe or not. Honestly I don't know what WoW your playing because the one I just quit last month after two years of play didn't have a good group play. It was join an instance group or don't group till end game. Sure they had group quest but that was more pain to complete than just skipping it and keep soloing.

Again, post is called learning from WoW. WoW started the green, blue, purple, etc gear drop from random mobs and other games picked it up. The also made those greens and blue in most cases better than what is crafted at that level. As someone who tried his had at crafting I found it easier to craft armor for myself than to craft armor and sell it on the AH. Reason being is because the stuff never sells on the AH. People have decent armor from drops already. Only at end game levels does crafted armors come into play.

I am keeping it real. FFXI a player looks at what the last 7 bids are and sells their item for 2k gil less. Another player looks at the AH and see the last seven bids are 8k and makes a bid for 7.5k, sold.

WoW a players looks at the AH see the item he wants to sell with all the buyout prices listed. He then sells his item for 20g less, undercutting everyone else. Another player looks at all the buyout price, finds the cheapest one and buys it.

The difference is called visible and invisible undercutting. I prefer invisible because I've been undercut less using that system. I'm hoping FFXIV has a completely new system than what WoW or FFXI does.

Id like to also point out that when you are going over the negatives of FFXI PLEASE for the love of god check and make sure it wasn't fixed at some point.. I know many negatives that are still preasent in the game, like skilling up 2 hand weapons, ground kings ect...

Things like travel time and waiting for a boat for 15 minutes when nobody in their right mind actually uses the boats for actual traveling anymore.. Outpost warping in the original world and chocobo whistle made for travel times that even WoW cant compete with.

In every major city in the game was warp locations to travel instantly all over the place.

Also in recent times forced grouping at early levels in FFXI pretty much died in a fire when for many classes they made it possible to solo at ridicules speeds. a 2 man static could very easily go from 1-75 at probably around the same speed it took me to get druid from 1-80... actually probably faster because WoWs leveling TNLs even before level 20 average around 2 to 3 hours per level when in FFXI a solid duo could probably continue to do 1-2 levels per hour up into the 40s....

check your information before you complain that the game never changed in 5 years... Its annoying...

I've played WoW for a little while, was okay...

Regarding FFXIV,

-Make crafting system challenging, yet very possible.

-Do not add "free" jumping. I feel that should stick to WoW and other MMOs alike; the character designings of FFXI/XIV(from what is shown so far) give off a "mature" feel, albeit fantasy like. For WoW, the characters were "toonish" so it suited well. If jumping were implemented, it might take away that solid "mature" feel and bring a goofy feel. Climbing, auto-jumping to get to ledges etc, and swimming seem alright.

-I really feel they should keep hardcore elements like camping and stuff, while introducing new ideas/systems for casual play. I agree with those that mention "the feeling of accomplishment",for eg. having gear you know others would not be able to get 1,2,3. The game could get lame and boring if everyone were to obtain "rare" or great equip with hot stats very easily; not saying that all great gear should be hard to obtain.

I'll add to the delevel thing by saying in 3 years of playing, I might have deleveled a whole 5 times, and those were at lower levels, right after I had dinged. If you're dying enough to delevel regularly, I honestly think you should be deleveling. If you're level 25 but can't do anything other level 25s can do without dying, it seems like you might want to try level 24 (or wahtever lower level) again and learn some of the basics.

Also, I'd much rather lose XP than see my equipment break. I did camp/mine for much of my gear so I could have afforded to fix it, but oh man... if my O kote, Brown Belt, TM Hooks +2, Peacock Charm, shoot, even if my republic subligar that I was wearing at 55 broke, I'd flip something awful. Even if you lose 10k XP on a death (didn't wait for raise), that takes an hour, maybe two hours to get it back in a party. I spent many more hours than that getting the gil I'd need to repair some of my gear.

You're right about time sinks not representing skill. They do sort of represent "want it"-ness, though. In a video game with a battle system as simple as FFXIs, it wasn't *that* difficult to get the hang of it [I have seen people that were just awful and should have deleveled a few times =P). The only thing to separate players is by showing how much more they are willing to work to get a better character. I think of equipment as the silent PvP of FFXI; I think there should be competition.

Edited, Jun 5th 2009 12:10pm by TheShadowWalker

I'm actually hoping that FFF takes a page from Guild Wars and makes the exp areas instanced.

So a leveling sessin goes like this: Grab 2-4 friends, go to a specified training arena, and have auto generated monsters appropriate to your level and setup produced for you at regular intervals. They wanted team vs team combat, so perhaps have initial battles be singles, with later fights being your party against a monster party, with more teamwork and coordination being required than current parties.

I think square enix was disappointed that the playerbase of FFXI outgrew their elegantly designed skillchain and magic burst system, and they want to have the teamwork and interdependence integrated much more tightly into FFXIV.

I think that's an interesting idea. I think that it could add another level of diversity to the game if you had instances that were specifically designed around gaining xp with little/no concern for loot. I do think, however, that offering decent loot from instance bosses is a fun thing to do so if I had a choice between a bit of xp for killing trash and a handful of bosses for slightly extended fights and some reasonably decent shinies, I'd probably take that option over a straight grinding dungeon.

I'd like to see the emotes being a little like wows - big differences in the actions depending on race and if you're male or female , and a variety of dances .

I haven't really played wow enough to comment on actual gameplay (I took up the free trial a couple of days ago, but I do like the emotes)

I also like the way the maps unlock in wow - you discover a new area, gain some exp, and then its marked on your map ^^

- I meant a system that forces creativity, thus requiring common sense skills and
in game stat skills. One that would make you think before crafting even with all
necessary items at hand; for eg., say in this case it's blacksmithing, the
outcome or design or maybe even color of a piece of equipment is affected
(by the way you craft) a little but not to the extent where it looks completely
different from the original look. Might be asking for too much or too tedious,
thinking about it now, but something like this. lol :/


Edited, Jun 5th 2009 1:16pm by GrandScale

I'm sorry, but I honestly hope no games take anything from Guild Wars. I was so entirely uninterested in that game, and I did, I honestly did give it a chance. There wasn't a single aspect I liked, including the combat system. I think if Guild Wars wasn't free to play, no one would play it.



Outgrew? When did the playerbase ever outgrow it? Sure, it might not be as common to see people doing skillchains as much as, say, power leveling is, but there were plenty of people still who didn't want to take the easy route to leveling and liked fights being quick and easy because of the skill of the party. Skillchains are essential for melees maxing the damage they can put out, and magic bursts added so much more damage. It's a great system, and people still use it. Magic bursts might not be as common with the lolBLM mentalities, but hell, as a BLU I was all for MBs.

The grind is an absolute joke these days.. I just got through saying that its annoying reading comments from people talking about the game if they have not played the game in the last year or two...

I am not kidding man, especially at lower levels solo, gone from level 11 to 19 in like 2 hours.. Level sync groups doing 15k per hour in qufim... Skilling up after you hit the high levels will take longer than it did to get there...

When was the last time you played? ( not sarcastic or trying to be rude. Actually want to know )

Solo in FFXI is viable now. The only rough stretch is between levels 50-60 once you hit 60 you can campaign for xp which is pretty much quest for xp system.

The way it is currently balanced in FFXI is that leveling solo is extremely viable but leveling in a group post level 30 starts to get faster and a really good group could net you 5+ levels in a single day without breaking a sweat. The problem with solo leveling in FFXI at this point has nothing to do with viability or even speed no the biggest fault clearly falls on its repetitiveness. Killing stuff and doing nothing else will get boring no matter what. Fields of valor was meant to combat this but that in and of itself is repetitive too.. They needed more verity of tasks than just killing stuff to pull it off.

Questing for xp forces players to use more than one part of their brain varying up the experience a bit while playing with a group of 6 other players tends to do the same thing in different ways.

Lets take the baseline length of time it takes to level on average in wow between levels 20-40. Every level in wow takes a couple hours easily and by the time you reach the high 30s it often takes 3 hours per level. More if you get stuck because you cant figure out a confusing quest. 11 DAYS of actual time spent playing the game to reach level 80 is considered blazing fast in WoW.

In order for it take take longer than 3 hours for me to level in FFXI I would have to not use my xp band and be in the upper 40s 50s. 3k per hour is pretty average solo speed and if you consider the empress band and check my statement with how much xp it takes to level it should check out. Approximately the same speed that you level in WoW at its absolute slowest.

My point being is that its not slow leveling solo in FFXI its BORING there is a huge difference. Something that could easily be fixed with the right mindset.

Edited, Jun 5th 2009 3:03pm by thorazinekizzez

but it's cosmetics like that that keep the player playing their character. It's rewarding to get a new title or tabard that shows off your accomplishment, as much as it is to get a weapon that increases your DPS and whatnot.

First: Thunderfury Blessed Blade of the Windseeker, Sulfuras Hand of Ragnaros, Atiesh Greatstaff of the Guardian, and the current legendary, Val'anyr Hammer of the Ancient Kings would like to have a word with you.

Second: Timesinks exist regardless of how hardcore or casual a game is. The severity of the timesinks and the degrees in which you get penalized may vary, but both are still timesinks. If not, I would already have an Argent Hippogriph and maxed reputation with the Silver Covenant. What really sets them apart is that until recently hardcore games built themselves around timesinks that would bore a normal person to tears.

Flawed logic is flawed. Even after you figure out a boss it can take a while to get them down pat and one-shotting it after you get it on farm status. Also, movie strategies will only go so far. Watching the Auriaya fight on youtube doesn't help when there's no Death Knight off-tank to pull the boss in your raid. And every raid does things their own way. Lastly, you gear to see content. It's the same as it was before, really.

RMT are in no way supported, and it's dumb to even consider them a factor. The truth is, these guys are desperate enough that they make characters with random letters for names for the sole purpose of running into town and trying advertising their services, at which point all players on general and trade chat will report them for spamming. The system in place also makes reliance on RMT pointless, since gold at max level is rather easy to obtain, and unlike FFXI you don't need the best of the best gear be viable in a party, since the point is killing the boss at the end of the instance, not getting max exp/hour. Most of the stuff that costs more than the 5000 gold needed for epic flying training is merely vanity stuff. So no, people are not buying success with money.

Repait costs at low levels are pretty lenient, when you think about it. It also does not directly affect character progression, since people are not losing levels left and right. Progression into the latest batch of content would be a complete headache for guilds if exp loss was in place. I know square noticed this becuase the closest possible thing (the CoP missions) got changed so that you didn't lose exp in them. You can't really compare repair costs to exp loss. Even as a lv80 character with full epic gear, the repair costs aren't that bad considering how much gold I can make from doing two or three daily quests.

PS: If I'm feeding a troll, my apologies.

No, you can use your weapon in events that you participate in; the weapon will make a difference when you fight, but not your title nor what mount you have.
I rather get items that will improve my character then getting useless achievements and mounts that are cosmetic.

I’m not saying that you should remove the title system or getting mount, just that those things have very small value of achievement compare to items that you actually can use to advance in the game.

I would like to see FFXIV incorporate movement into fighting. Standing in one place for a long time can get kind of dull, and having to manage movement helped to make WoW major boss fights and PvP pretty intense for me.

I don't think they should copy WoWs talent tree system, but they should add in some more customization options so that everyone belonging to a class isn't the exact same.

Really ? Thunderfury, at the beginning a good sword that got nurfed to hell, and became useless after a while, Sulfuras, again a good mace that of course only lasted until expansion hit the stores. Atiesh, very few guilds actually made that staff and got screwed over pretty bad when TBC hit the stores, so in the end not point in getting it whatsoever.



Then don’t play those hardcore MMO, simple as that. Why do you think there are a variety of different MMO:s out there? So that people can choose what they want to play. If a hardcore MMO doesn’t suit your taste then don’t play it.



Yes in WoW that is how things work, you gear up to SEE the next content, with the exception of expansions where they will raise the level bar meaning that that last instance is skippable and not really needed to progress in the game, instances like Nax before TBC, and Sunwell before Leech King.



Again the death penalty system that WoW is using is lenient, and the one FFXI is using is harsh, the difference between a casual and hardcore MMO.



Not at all, you had a lot of interesting input.

Edited, Jun 5th 2009 4:45pm by Maldavian

Tytrian wrote:

I think it's a great idea to allow a player to advance solo no matter their "level" (for lack of a better term) and on any job. However, I think WoW has shown if you don't really buff the rewards for grouping for XP, no one ever will. And learning party dynamics as your job progresses makes for a better, more confident end game player. It also gets characters more integrated to the community at large.

If I were King, I'd set the solo advancement rate rate at more like 33-40% as efficient as grouping. That way, if I only have 30 minutes to play, or assembling a group together on a given evening isn't working, I can still go out and make progress on my own. But there would be a high incentive for me to take the time to get a group together when I have longer to play, and bigger XP, errr advancement (this no xp thing in XIV is gonna take me some time to assimilate) goals I want to accomplish.

Edited, Jun 5th 2009 6:36pm by ascorbic

You claimed that there was nothing people could put effort into for a prolongued amount of time. I mentioned the ones currently in game, that require coordination from an entire guild to put together. Thunderfury was the "easier" of the legendaries to get (and primarily a tank weapon because of the proc). Sulfuras was nothing to scoff at, and required a 1% drop item from Ragnaros himself. Atiesh required collecting all the splinters + the head and base from Kel'thuzad and C'thun. I'll agree that guilds got screwed over Atiesh, but that was more because they released naxxrammas too late in vanilla (which is why they chose to retune naxx for lv80 with Lich King).

My guild is currently working on Val'anyr, and I know it'll be a while before we get ours to our druid main healer. Long term project for us.

Timesinks are still involved. It's just a matter choosing what type of timesink you want in your game: the type that you can shrug your shoulders at, or the type that bores you to tears.

The formula for MMO design has changed. You can't just put in timesinks for the sake of having timesinks anymore. You have to blend them in well enough that it doesn't frustrate the player, thus making you as a designer rely less on your playerbase's unquestionable faith to keep them playing.

All that being said, XIV's claim of being casual friendly makes me question what the guys at square actually consider to be "casual".

Very good question, I guess we need to wait and see. Casual can mean anything really and we can do at this point is to speculate.

Yeah, that was what i tried to imply. If i could have it as an ideal (and this is my opinion only) all classes could solo / quest to level cap. Doing missions or story line would require a group. Doing any NM's or BCNM's should require a group.

Doing something like earn a transportation method should never require a group. Not particularly the case in ffxi, but something i felt should be mentioned.



Yeah, to expand on my post (since i was running out of time on lunch break):
The world should be seamless - the boss / dungeon content should be instanced. To put this in an example in ffxi - Davoi, Castle Ort, etc should be instanced.



People will camp them regardless. it's just whether or not they sit around for 1-4 hours doing so, or if they actually have control over it. In that sense, it is a choice of whether you make the fight challenging or if you simply make it take a long time to get (by making respawns longer or drop rates smaller). I think the vast majority of players would rather be engaged in a skillful battle with an NM for an item rather then sitting around for hours on end hoping for claims / drops.



You misunderstood. In wow, gear eclipses the character. In Age of Conan, gear is near meaningless in most cases. FFxi falls somewhere inbetween, and this is something i like about the game. However what i do not like is the general progression of the gear. As i said - a lvl 20 item should be replaced in a timely fashion. It should not last you til near endgame.

At endgame, well I think that there should simply be different variations on gear. But mmo's tend to present the carrot on a stick formula (like wow) but i would prefer other means.

But like i said - gear should progress, but not eclipse the character.



Yeah, first step i think would be for SE to actually make an offical forum (or use this one) and have a community representative to talk to us regularly and listen to the constructive posts.



Not really. What i meant was if you are a dd you are just as viable in almost all situations as another dd. For example - a dk's dps and utility are equal to a drg's dps and utility. A pld is just as good at tanking as a ninja.

Currently, there is job imbalance. Certain jobs just do not perform equally compared to their counter parts in a large number of situations. This is a problem, a problem that should be addressed.

Basically, if you follow the same setup as ffxi - dd, tank, healer, support - then every dd will do the same amount of damage and offer equivalent utlity in almost every fight. The difference between the dd's is both their mechanics and playstyle. Not their effectiveness. Likewise for all other archtypes.

There should be no "best at dd / healing / tanking / support" class. Peoples insentive to play a class should not be "if you want to deal the most damage, you play a <x>" or "if you want to tank effectively or on this encounter, you play <a - tank class> not <b - tank class>" it should be "well, i like the mechanics and playstyle of <y>"

Edited, Jun 5th 2009 7:06pm by KacesofCaitsith

/sigh

I am still seeing a lot of posts with people complaining about stuff that either wasn't a problem with the game or was fixed years ago..

Why instance the beastmens home turf when it plays such an integral roll in campaign battle? Campaign is by definition a world wide PVE wintergrasp and I prefer it this way. Also too the fewer locations like this I can choose to take an xp party greatly effects my options further exasperating one of the games major flaws where we all simply went to kill birds for merits rather than go anywhere else.

As a beastmaster one of the most fun aspects about the game was exploring in search of viable solo camps back in the day...

Sure put instance portals IN these locations but for god sakes don't consolidate the entire world into a giant series of portals to go anywhere interesting.

Applying one blanket solution for everything is folly.

And this stance that running instances was gear dependant EVEN MORE so than running merits is simply not true. Not only do people run very harsh gear checks they also have to KNOW THE INSTANCE BY heart just to get their foot in the door. WoWs elitism is just as prevalent, probably even worse than I remembered it being with merits in FFXI.

I don't even remember people running gear checks to do mission instances in FFXI... And at least if you played a class that was not desired for meriting you had campaign, soloing, besieged ect... There were other things to do to get the same result!

Edited, Jun 5th 2009 6:42pm by thorazinekizzez