Learning from WoWFollow

I agree with this post a lot.

Combat in WoW is smoother and faster paced. I like that. Instancing of content I think is a no brainer, and S-E figured out over time that it wasn't a coincidence that the most loved content was the instanced content such as BCNMs. One thing not mentioned in the first post is customer service. This isn't a feature of the game per se, but it's something that S-E really needs to learn, not just from Blizzard but from the industry as a whole. Even games that are disasterous such as Age of Conan have blown S-E away in terms of customer service.

Areas where WoW fails compared to FFXI:

Everything is too easy. Yea, FFXI can be very frustrating sometimes, but damn do you feel good when you accomplish a long term goal. Even something as simple as unlocking your sub job, getting your chocobo license, a new gobbie bag upgrade etc all make a big difference and all take at least some effort to obtain. In WoW, there is nothing you can accomplish that isn't going to be trivialized in a few months. There is nothing that is hard for you now that will be equally hard for some one else in six months. The only thing that lasts is the memory of doing something during the brief time that it was still challenging and not every one had done it.

Gear: Bind on Equip SUCKS. Random/cookie cutter gear SUCKS. FFXI has this 90% right. Make gear last, make gear matter, make gear have value and permanence.

If SE took a page from WoW's book, Nidhogg would be found in a raid dungeon. Most raid dungeons in WoW have a 7 day reset. It starts Tuesday morning. You can enter with your raid group and when you down a boss, you are saved to that instance. You can then enter that instance again and that boss will be dead and gone until the following Tuesday morning when the entire instance is reset. In other words...you can only kill a particular boss once/week.

In essence, the only difference between an instanced Nidhogg on a 7 day reset and a world spawn Nidhogg on a 21-24 spawn timer is that you're guaranteed to be able to fight Nidhogg once/week in an instance at a time that is agreeable to enough people in your LS to make it happen, whereas the world spawn version is only something you can fight if a) the spawn window is open at a time when you and enough people from your shell are present to have a reasonable chance at winning the fight and b) you win the claim.



Not really. Gear in FFXI was so relatively hard to come by the making most of it Rare/Ex would have meant a great many half naked toons running around. WoW is also not the only MMO to make common use of bind on pickup/bind on equip gear. It's a system that works if basic gear is easy enough to obtain that you don't have to keep everything that ever drops in circulation so that there's enough to go around. It's not a system that would work in FFXI, but it works in WoW (and other games) and would work in FFXIV if SE does a better job with itemization.



Why would I need to go out and kill an innocent elemental or rob some poor goblin for a Fire Crystal to smelt some ingots when there's a friggin' forge in the smithy? Why would I need a wind crystal to carve something when I could use a knife? Why would I need a water crystal to dissolve something while I'm standing next to a body of water?

I'm not saying there's something horribly wrong with the crystal system for crafting in FFXI, but you can't argue that it's not contrived.



That's just a horribly biased and unfounded view you've developed. In my case, I didn't leave FFXI for WoW. I left FFXI. Then I found WoW. After playing WoW for a while, I couldn't help but notice all the differences that left me saying, "Man, I can't believe I put up with that crap in FFXI for so long." I wasn't looking for "easy". I was looking for "fun". For me, the grind in FFXI (specifically, the repetition and restrictions) were not fun. I enjoyed being able to go out and grind XP whether I could find a suitable group or not. I liked being able to gather materials to skill up my professions while I was out gaining xp. I liked the steady sense of progression, and I liked the fact that I rarely felt like I had run out of new things to do.



People who are still playing a dated MMO are usually the last ones to notice/acknowledge what everyone else already knows: the game is dead, and has been dead for some time. The FFXI population is dwindling, not growing, and that's not an indication of current success. FFXI peaked years ago. People who still play FFXI will receive no condescension from me, but to say that FFXI is in any way a shining example of MMO success that should be duplicated with FFXIV would be an erroneous statement. FFXI took off in North America because the brand legacy drew in a lot of players and outside of EQ, there was little/nothing to compare it to. (And FFXI vs. EQ was no comparison at all). WoW revolutionized the MMO scene because it had something for everyone, not just a select group of people who insisted that hours upon hours upon hours of identical repetition and inactivity were suitable challenges to overcome in the name of getting the next shiny for the sense of "accomplishment" and status.



Not really. Triple the swing timer and cut TP gain by 1/3. TP gain remains the same but the pace of combat is accelerated. Again, no other MMO I know of since FFXI has duplicated the theory that 20 seconds is a "short" cooldown for an ability.



Seasoned fighters also aren't going to get their asses kicked by monsters so weak and pathetic that said seasoned fighter has nothing to learn from fighting them. Seasoned fighters aren't going to count to 7 between scythe swings "just because" while their buddy with the shield is taking a beating from the 15 foot tall stone monstrosity.

If you like the combat system in FFXI, that's cool but again, not everyone finds, "Hurry up and wait" to be an entertaining game mechanic.



Pressing buttons in games like WoW or LOTRO add to gameplay. You're not pressing buttons for auto-attacks. You're pressing buttons to make use of your myriad abilities in a particular sequence for a particular result (ie. working a threat rotation as a tank so that you're building as much threat as possible while synchronizing your cooldowns so that everything flows smoothly).

I hope it's nothing like WoW, I hated WoW and it's combat system, spamming quicklots isn't my idea of interesting combat, I prefer the slower paced strategic combat system of FFXI, and I hope FFXIV has similar play style.

The main reason I played FFXI is because of it's uniqueness in gameplay style, maybe it's just me.

Combat System: It needs to be a blend of both WoW and FFXI. FFXI had a lot of really great idea's thrown into a slow paced combat system that made it cool, but slow enough to not feel "exciting" at most times. Skill Chains are one of the most unique and original combat ideas that came from FFXI, and done at a faster pace would make them much better. This leads into the next suggestion...

Instanced Dungeons: Obviously, the "dungeon crawling" concept is hardly new to MMO's, and hardly WoW's claim to fame. But the idea of seperating the game World from the Dungeons for unique ID instancing is just the smarter way to go...I think most agree with this. Coupled with a faster combat pace, multi-mob pulling, so on and so forth...there's a lot of "good" that could come from FFXIV with a mix of things.

Interface: This is a big pet peeve. I don't want the vast ocean of "AddOns" WoW has. And this is coming from a WoW AddOn author. But SE really needs to get rid of the menu-based system that FFXI had and move to a more streamlined and modern interface. The macroing system was nice, but it required a lot of time to setup & modify, as well as knowledge of what was capable with the system.

World Consistency: Again, not necessarily WoW's own from an originality point of view, but this is important for A) Travel and B) Open World Feeling. Zoning from zone to zone makes it feel less like a world and more like a constricted game. Adding open world consistency will make things much better, much more fluid feeling, and create an "Open" world to explore.

^ I agree 100% with this - I'll stick with FFXI if the combat system in FFXIV is like WoW's.

It will be very interesting to see what they learned from XI an apply to XIV.

my post was a joke ; ; you are an idea stealer
but ty for recognizing my awesomeness <33

Edited, Jun 3rd 2009 9:46am by darkrainkujata

I'm going to type out my thoughts here, don't know how well or how condescending they're going to come out...

My biggest problem with WOW is the player base and it's for 2x reasons...

1) PvP junkies. Yeah it's funny to tea bag somebody once or twice a week, but the fact that you killed me yesterday and I was still x levels below you, and you tea bagged me again just shows that you're a complete idiot. The fact that FFXI is pretty much nothing but working together for one common goal shows comrodere even with ass hole players, or with the silliest newb. The best friends I've met in FFXI have been the level 30 pick up in Promyvion that just flat out out shine as whatever job they bring, and to me PVP just takes away a lot of that 'work together' hippy commune feel I have.

2) The player base. Thrs ppl in ffxi who tlk lik on a cellphone, and I can say without doubt I've never been let down by not inviting someone who cannot type out a simple sentence, especially on first impressions. On the PS3 community I can safely say most people talk like this, and WOW is by far one of the worst games at this. FFXI has it's shortened words like BLM, BCNM, ROZ. Every time I play WOW I have to remember every shortening for every common phrase in existence.

LTR MCR 40 LFGASklaska
s

@#%^ off.




Other than that I hope this time around they keep 2 lists: What jobs we need to fix, and what jobs we need to add content on. If they kept these 2 lists separate balances would be quicker and more effective for balance.

One thing I learned is party xping is a necessary evil. Yea it sucks waiting hours on hours for a party but it's also the binds that make the FFXI community so great.

I can already see it in this thread... People that won't let go of bad ideas from Final Fantasy XI. If SE listens to you... this game will not be relevant, just like Final Fantasy XI was, within 2 years time.

The game has to be fun for a lot more people then just hardcore fans of Final Fantasy XI. While I did love Final Fantasy XI in a lot of ways, after playing WoW I realized how difficult everything was in the game. It became harder and harder to justify playing FFXI after I realized that games didn't have to feel like a job anymore. (and I think the FFXI developers were trying to actually make things easier than Everquest was)

I hope this games makes it so we want to adventure together and explore together. I hope we get bonuses for fighting with others. I want a lot of emphasis on big time bonuses for partying with other adventurers. However, I don't want it the only way we can level up. When you purchase a game you should be able to play it when you turn it on,and you should be able to play it your own way. If you want to solo, lets make it easy to solo as well. You will go slower when soloing but not at such a disadvantage that the game loses all of it's fun. (50xp a kill and it takes 3 minutes to kill each mob is HORRIBLE) Also let's tweak party dynamics so that certain jobs don't get completely hosed.

I want the advantage to party with a group of people to be that you pick up more XP, you kill mobs even faster, and YOU PICK UP MORE ITEMS! You should always get bonuses for killing IT mobs, and the new thing I want changed is that IT mobs drop a lot more items when defeated. I really like the idea that people that need more items for their crafting get a huge bonus for partying with others as opposed to hunting solo much lower leveled mobs.

I want to know what Easy Prey and Incredibly Tough actually are. If you are EP to me I should be able to solo you. I can't stand that after you hit level 10 that gauge is completely wrong. I'd like to be able to solo and make maybe 200-500xp less per hour than a group getting XP. I'd like to see a lot less items drop as a result of me being alone, as well as being vulnerable.

I also likes WoW scalability with their experience system in that the higher level you achieve the more xp you get. Also they change their system so that the elite players must always get the most xp when more levels are added, but the players left behind can now easily get within the top 10 levels of the top because it takes less experience to achieve that. If you take a break from the game and come back, you do not feel overwhelmed. You still have to work getting the last 10 levels... but if you were level 60 and now there is level 80, it's so much easier to make it to level 70.



Edited, Jun 3rd 2009 5:13pm by brethartfan

Or they could, you know, just cut down the amount needed to get that level.

200/kill to get 40k EXP is the same as 15,000/kill and working on 3,000,000 for your level - it takes 200 kills either way. (If anything, the latter one feels a bit more soul-crushing - "what do you mean, I need three million experience to get my next level?")

WoW goes for the latter method; FFXI went for the former method.

I'll preface this by saying I'm playing WoW now, have been for...3 years? Give or take and I played FFXI for about that long, maybe a tad longer, before WoW. I haven't read all of this thread, no time! But about the first half.

I think the biggest thing SE can learn from the post WoW world is solo content and the difficulty of content. Almost -everything- in FFXI forces you to group up. Leveling, questing, the story, bosses, you name it. Pretty much the only thing you can do solo is craft and farm. Grouping is awesome, it's fun, it's productive, but it's forced on you too much in FFXI. A lone person needs to be able to accomplish more by themselves, including leveling. Grouping to level should still be an option, but not a requirement.

As for the difficulty of content, I really appreciated how in FFXI you really felt like you accomplished something when you downed a boss, or got a piece of endgame gear, but it was also terribly annoying going for months without ever getting an upgrade--nothing to show for your time. I'm all for keeping these objectives, but how about adding smaller accomplishments along the way? WoW has a tier system of objectives. You start out with easy objectives, simple rewards (quests, leveling), then moderate objectives with decent rewards (dungeons, battlegrounds, group quests), and then really hard objectives with really great rewards (raids, battlegrounds, arena, group quests). It could takes months to get to the last step, but those months are still filled with smaller achievements. You upgrade gear, learn the story, collect vanity items, improve your craft skills, and make money all while moving up the ladder.

In FFXI there is only one step. Really hard. This can stay, it's a great step, but it needs to be accompanied by its younger brothers.

That's all folks. /flee

As I think more about this, I can come up with 2 other things I'd like to see in FFXI that I appreciate in WoW (though these ones are not, necissarly, WoW specific)

1) Let us Jump! I'm sick of not being able to get over a pile of rubble because it comes up to my shins!

2) No more hidden stats! Why oh why can I see my attack power, but not my ranged attack power or magic attack power? Why is it such a sin to know what my accuracy rating really is and what % that equals? Why all the mystery over arbitrary stats?

They're little things, but they'd make me happy.

I'd probably say give us a real first person mode like Elder Scrolls: Oblivion. The battle system can stay the same but I wanna see more than just the mob infront of me like a movie. Seeing your weapon drawn and swinging, shield moving up to block when you block, etc.

My Top 10... some of these are what we need from WoW, some are things they just don't need from FFXI.

1. REAL AUGMENTS!!!
When I make an armor kit in WoW and apply it, I know what stat my favorite piece of gear is getting (and it isn't negative!)

2. The ability to jump and swim
I don't know of any real people who can fight dragons, swing massive weapons, and cast powerful spells that can't jump over a downed tree limb. Think of everything they could add if you could just swim.

3. The ability to solo, but still party in a group
Somebody mentioned this, and it's a great idea. Let me solo XP anywhere, anytime, but make it as 80% efficient as grouping.

4. Instanced Dungeons
This is actually #1 on my list, but it's so obvious I'm not going to elaborate.

5. More abilities
I love my DRG. I hate that I'm going from 60-75 with no new abilities. With most jobs (esp. in later levels) there are huge gaps where I'm getting nothing while the WHM is getting a new tier of Cure, or my BLM buddy is learning Ancient Magic.

6. No Subjobs
I hate NIN, but I have to level it for my THF, so I can use Sneak Attack on my DRG. Come on... I want to play DRG.

7. Easier Weapon skill/crafting points
Say I'm a level 60 DRK and my Scythe is capped, but I'm a noob and never leveled GS. Now I have to spend a year and a half swinging at things and getting 0.2 skillups now and then. In WoW, I can swing, miss, and get one full point. After a few mobs, my skill is good enough to where I can use it in real combat.

8. No more/less frequent World pops; instance them
Taking on Vrtra looks sweet, but those other 4 camps think so too. Oh well... maybe in three more days...

9. More variation in mobs.
Why does a Lesser Colibri, Colibri, and Greater Colibri all look the same? There is little variation in mob skins in FFXI. In WoW, at least they have different color patterns...

10. Mithra dancing in their underwear on top of mailboxes.
j/k



Edited, Jun 4th 2009 8:21pm by Tytrian - type-o's. (spelling errors, not blood types).

Edited, Jun 4th 2009 8:26pm by Tytrian

It comes down to a choice between making the content relatively accessible to all players and implementing a system where access to the content is so severely restricted that it leads to widespread resentment and even cheating (see also: claim botting).

Instanced content means that xp groups can go and have access to the same quantity of mobs as any other group without having to compete for claims on trash mobs and twiddle thumbs waiting for respawns. Instanced content means that your chance to get loot from named mobs is based on the ability of your group to fight and kill the mob, not on who has the ability with the shortest cast time coupled with the fastest "trigger" finger.

Instanced content means that you can have a much, much wider variety of monsters in a game that require a group to kill without making the "outside" world so hazardous that solo play becomes frustratingly tedious if not impossible. Instanced content means that you can create an area with a certain atmosphere and flow dynamic with a sense of continuity to it for players to experience to its full potential. There's no risk of other groups coming in and killing a mob here and a group of mobs there and leaving the place feeling empty when the developers really wanted to give you a sense that you were in some foreboding monster stronghold.

We can't really bring the concept of realism into the picture because there's nothing realistic about killing a giant named dragon only to have him magically reappear 3 game weeks later unscathed and ready for another round with the foolhardy adventurers who want his loot.

The primary fundamental benefit of instanced content is that it gives all players of a suitable level (or not, as the case may be with FFXIV) an opportunity to experience the content whether there are 50 groups that want a crack at it on a given night or just 1.

Interesting way of putting it. From my short experience in WoW, the lower level instances came down to: "Oh, you need this item? Alright let's run it." ...don't get it.."Let's run it again." And you just keep doing that until you get what you want and there is no real difficulty. If they had a level cap, I could see it working more, but that trudges into the BCNM territory and that's why I like BCNMs. You can't just keep doing them, you have to build up the tokens or whatever they're called.

WoW-esque instances wouldn't be so bad if it was for primarily XPing. I don't know.. I just don't think XPing, farming, and NM hunting should all go in the same, pretty easy, dungeon raid.


Oh no! I think leveling down adds a huge amount of fun to FFXI and it would do the same with FFXIV. Now, they said it wouldn't be XP based, so they probably won't have it (unfortunately), but I always liked it. Playing in FFXI, I rarely saw people die. Or.. when people did die, they got pissed and the party shaped up. WoW on the other hand.. (just my experience), people die left and right and don't really give a damn. Instances with some parties was akin to bashing ones head against a door until it broke, instead of using the doorknob. They'd go in, suck, die, retry but not change anything. Not always of course, but I hated the idea with a passion. Not having any sort of leveling down means that if you play the game for X amount of time, no matter how much you suck, you will reach max level as long as you kill things on a regular basis.

If SE takes one thing from WoW, let it be transparency. WoW players know exactly how stats work in WoW because the devs told them. They know what to expect from updates for the same reason.

On the same note, more and better communication, please. The recent debuff resistance debacle in FFXI is a perfect example of how not to run an MMO. It was an honest mistake on SE's part, but nobody knew if it was a mistake or intentional because SE waited a week before even acknowledging that anything had changed. Blizzard would have had a statement out within an hour.

As for the auction: Overall, WoW has the better auction system IMO. If nothing else, I can chose who I want to buy from. Everyone who played FFXI and used the AH was sending money to gilsellers by buying shihei, and they could have avoided that if they so chose by avoiding the obvious gilseller names. Also, it was an actual auction, even if people normally do just hit buyout. However, WoW is missing something I consider vitally important to an MMO: bazaars! Being able to set up your own little shop was a great part of FFXI, and I hope it's in FFXIV as well.

Eh, I wanted to type up a huge rant about how bad WoWs community is and how most of the aspects of the game attract those kinds of players but I'll skip it and write about the parts of WoW I actually liked.

1) Character customization: Whats better than a SAM? A SAM with multiple unique and viable play styles! WoWs skill tree is a great example of how this can be achieved.

2) Instanced dungeons: Fun group oriented zones that give out useful equipment as rewards and help to break up the tedium of grinding.

3) Fast(er) traveling: I still cringe thinking about the 20 minute waits for an airship or boat and all the swearing I did if I saw it departing when I reached the dock. I've got mixed emotions about the rides though. A scenic airship cruise or fishing off the side of the boat was actually fun.... sometimes.

4) Questing: quests in WoW were the slightly more fun, slightly less monotonous alternative to grinding. They also game good rewards.

I would like to see FFIV learn from WOW in how it allowed for gamers to progress at their own pace.

I think everyone hated the 24 hour camps (or more) from FFXI, and the raid lockout timer in wow seemed much more fair, you still just get one shot a week at the item you want, you just get to do it on your own schedule.

The interface from wow with hot buttons etc I hope are not incorporated into FFIV, I like the menu system (as clunky as some mouse clickers find it) and I found it to be quite intuitive with a controller in hand. I still think I can get my macros off with a Ps2 controller faster than I can hit hotkeys with a keyboard in wow. But that is just preference.

I also like the idea of experience from quests, I mean, you just did something, which sometimes involves no combat... does that mean you didn't learn anything from it as a character? I like the gold system in wow as well (although I would far prefer it to be called gil lol), simply because it was much easier to obtain than gil in FFXI if you were working towards it.

Daily quests are also a favorite of mine. Find a task that you really enjoy doing (even if most your server finds it horrid) and you can do it every day just to keep on getting some pocket money.

It's kinda funny, because after all these years and all the MMOs developed and released since FFXI, there's still that stubborn group of players who thinks it's better to reward players for wasting time than it is to reward them for skill. Skill is what gets your group their first kill of a certain boss. Dedication and commitment to the team is what gets them their 20th kill. Not knowing any better and thinking they're demonstrating something noteworthy (or worthy of a fantastic reward) is what gets them their 200th kill (with only 50 to go!), despite the fact that they were bored sh*tless with the content at about kill #15.



You have no idea what you're talking about, so I'll offer you an example. The #1 raiding guild for my faction on the WoW realm I was on before I stopped playing in early March spent two weeks, 4-5 nights/week for 4-6 hours/night trying to down a single raid boss in the hardest of the three hard-mode configurations for that boss before they finally cleared it one night after 14 attempts over the course of 6 hours. That guild is in the top 10% of raiding guilds worldwide. Few tries for a tricky boss? Pffffffffffffffffft.

Also, as to your second point in that paragraph, I'll let you in on a little secret.

Something that WoW and FFXI share in common is that different pieces of gear augment the stats and attributes of the character wearing that gear. Are you with me so far?

kk good...it gets better...

In both WoW and FFXI, if you increase your stats and attributes, it usually has a positive impact on your performance in combat, right? I mean like...if you're dps you can do more damage because you land more hits or you hit harder or your spells are resisted less and hit for more damage, right? Or if you're a tank you end up with more HP which means you can take more damage and maybe you get more defense so that each hit you take does less damage to you so you...you know...live longer. Stuff like that, ya know?

I haven't lost you yet, have I? No? kk good...we're getting to the good stuff...

So let's say you're a newer player fresh to the level cap in an LS full of players just like you and you want to get into the end-game scene so you decide to start with something fairly easy like Roc or Simurgh or something, right? So you tap your resources and you get a spawn timer and you and your LS head out to camp the spawn and huzzah! You arrive to find that yours is the only group camping. (teehee...lucky break!)

<queue intermission music...really long intermission music>

Ooo! Ooo! It popped and you're still the only ones there! Weee!! So you fight...and you fight...and you fight. It was tough, but you've got a good crew and you score the win! Yaaaaaay! Weeeeeeee! Huzzaaaahh!! 3 hour wait for a 30 minute fight but wooooooeeeeeee that was fun! Everyone is all excited, taru /panic dances all over the place. Victory is yours!

Then someone pipes up with enthusiastic glee and says they can't wait to fight Vrtra someday! YES!! Brilliant idea! Except woah..hold on...we just barely eeked by on an entry-level end-game mini-boss kinda thing. We're all at the level cap, so what can we do to get ready for Vrtra?

"We can merit for hours upon hours and days upon days!"

Fantastic idea, taru buddy! What else can we do?

"We can get better gear!"

Brilliant, madam Mithra! Abso-friggin'-lutely brilliant! Where should we start? Sky? YA! Let's start working on farming triggers in Sky! We're on our way! Yahoooooooooooooo! Watch out Vrtra! Here we come!

(I know it's been a few paragraphs since I checked, but are ya still with me? I'd hate to think I confused you somewhere in there. If I have, maybe go back and read it again...I think it's pretty clear up to this point. I'll wait.)

kk...got it now? good...we're getting to the best part...but shhh...remember...it's a secret...

So like...even though there's some status to be had from higher end gear, it also serves a practical purpose, right? The same sort of formula that has existed in RPGs since pre-D&D...you fight the monsters and develop your characters so that you can fight harder monsters and continue developing your characters so that you can fight harder monsters and...you get the idea, right? After years of adventuring you're not still just peasant Bob with a well worn (but sharp!) stick trying to take on a dragon. You've grown, you've developed, you've enhanced your skills and abilities. You've progressed.

Know what I mean?

EXCELLENT!! MAYBE NOW YOU'LL UNDERSTAND AND YOU AND YOUR FUNDAMENTALIST COMPADRES CAN STOP ARGUING THE FUNDAMENTALLY RETARDED IDEA THAT THE ONLY REASON TO GET THE GEAR IS TO BE ABLE TO SAY YOU GOT THE GEAR!!

If you play to experience the content...you know, if you PLAY TO PLAY, the idea of replacing gear when the next tier of content comes along is nothing to snivel about whatsoever. You upgrade the gear in the process of running the content as part of your overall character development so that you can take on greater challenges that would demolish less accomplished players.



Oh, it's a huge difference. For starters, you don't delevel if your gear breaks. Repair costs can add up but a full break (10 deaths from 100% assuming minimal durability loss from other sources) on epic level 80 plate gear (the most expensive to repair) cost me about as much as I could recover in 10-15 minutes worth of daily quests or farming. Ya, I know. Takes longer to break the gear than it does to earn the gold to pay for the repairs. What kind of messed up design philosophy is that?



If you're the kind of guy who needs to buy gold to cover your repair bills in a game like WoW because you can't earn the gold yourself you belong in a home, not in front of a computer. Suck less and you won't bankrupt yourself on repairs is the general motto.



I wasn't referring to dying in an xp party (although anyone who has played FFXI for any length of time likely has at least one story about how they joined an xp party for an hour and walked away with less xp than when they started.) I was referring to wiping on challenging content. You know...like bosses and stuff. REAL challenging stuff...not just the enormous challenge of waiting around. Of course, I'm talking from the perspective of both a former FFXI and WoW player, but with my most recent experience having been in WoW where if you gather in a large group for four hours of end-game content, you usually spend the majority of that that 4 hours you know...fighting stuff...where deaths vs. challenging mobs are not uncommon. I appreciate that in FFXI, 3 of those 4 hours can easily be spent doing absolutely nothing waiting for something to happen so ya, obviously if you find a way to die while doing nothing there's something wrong. I understand.

same here. i hate that "klick mob to death" combat style that is used in wow and most other mmos. it feels so... gimp. just gimp.

if combat in FFXIV is going to work like that as well then i'm definitively not going to play it.

Edited, Jun 5th 2009 5:04am by yrr

Skilled WoW players heavily frown upon clickers. Just sayin'.