Eorzea feels...Follow

I'm still amused at how much **** I got from people in XI for carefully attending all the raids, doing my part as an officer to dutifully record the points (I got no extra points for this, mind you, I just ran the DKP), and because I was paying so much attention to who was in what ranking, and also helped developed the schedule, knew exactly how much to "bid" on items to both maintain my DKP lead and also get all the stuff I wanted.

The biggest whining was over the Kirin's Osode I won for my bard, which was level 71 at the time. "BUT BUT BUT" they said. So much drama. 1. I had the points; I had more points than anyone. 2. We didn't have a rule about being able to equip gear and my bard was going to be 75 in a week anyway and then it COULD equip it 3. I WAS LEVELING THE JOB FOR THE FRIGGIN LINKSHELL BECAUSE WE HAD NO BARDS.

I agreed, need/greed/pass is better. That, and the ability to farm endlessly until you get what you want. That's nice.

Funny thing is that I AFK'ed in Zanr'ak the other night because I wasn't done killing mobs for my book, but I wanted to take a break and watch some TV with my wife. When I came back to the game an hour later, I was lying on the ground dead. So there is danger in AFKing in the wrong spot even in XIV. Also, I remember AFKing in dungeons in XI more than once. And like with XIV, you just have to pick the spot where you AFK carefully.

Comparing things to XI (or other games, for that matter) isn't a problem if it's done right. Want to compare the WHM of XI to that of XIV? Cool, go for it. Want to compare XI's IT++ EXP grind to running XIV's dungeons? Er... There needs to be some kind of sensible correlation as otherwise it risks turning into incomprehensible hate-mongering. That is what people are "white knighting" against, especially as a fan board.

And even as fans, people are capable of agreeing that XIV may indeed have its faults and have their own ideas on how to fix. On the same token, not yearning for harsh punishments or overly grindy mechanics does not make them bad/stupid/whiny players, either. There's a reason I often say MMOs of today have learned from the mistakes of those who came before them. Some of those who came before aren't even here now because of their mistakes. Some are no longer mainstream because content updates have slowed or the game itself simply can't be modernized to gain appeal with those who do value better graphics and environments. "If you like XYZ game, then go play it..." isn't an inherently wrong counter, but I can understand the negative implications behind it.

Trying to turn a game into something it isn't just never really goes over well. For example, I look to Diablo 3 and how there's a sort of cult following for wanting PvP. For some, this means the return of D2's hostile button, which functionally allowed high level people to enter a low level game and massacre everyone. On a more fundamental level, it wasn't a mutual agreement for players to fight. If one wanted to grief, they could. People opposed to this are naturally against the feature returning to D3, further citing that what PvP is present in the game (Brawling, a small zone people enter where you can attack other players) is not popular and the people who do want PvP never participating in it are essentially shooting themselves in the foot by not showing Blizzard the demand. All this, of course, before even entering the balance quagmire of the classes. Some PvP enthusiasts want to take things even further, however, proposing 4v4 arenas or other kinds of team match components despite the fact the game's engine can not handle more than 4 players in the same game. Try to remind players of that and it's either ignored or you get the stubborn, "Well then, fix it!" line with no regard to the feasibility in costs and needed manpower. Simply put, D3 was not a game built from the ground up with PvP in mind. Telling someone they'd be better served playing StarCraft, League of Legends, or other PvP-minded game isn't so much a put down as it is actually a reasonable suggestion. No, it may not be D3 aesthetically or mechanically, but if competition is their primary goal, well...

Back to XIV, though. One could say I'm on the record for feeling the game could benefit from some more randomization, but done intelligently. I don't like some mobs being on predictable scripts. This shifts things away from skill to more a matter of memorization and certainly making things easier to bot or utilize parser programs to gain an advantage other players might not have. I don't want the XI's Nidhogg situation where it could Hurricane Wing back-to-back-to-back just as an FU to the alliance fighting it, whereas the next group just gets him being breath-heavy. Slap a reasonable cooldown on Wing. When it's available, he may use it, he may not. Some moves could even be put on a brief cooldown if another is triggered to prevent some possible cheapness. Have a broad array of abilities and basic attacks to fill in the gaps and, sure, you get a more difficult mob. But I also still stand behind XI's mobs often being difficult for the wrong reasons: TP feed, Regain, stun-reliance, alliance-wiping AoEs, Defense being a historically useless stat, and probably a few more minor points someone could throw in, maybe even mob-depending.

I suppose the original topic has long since passed, but I thought I'd offer my two cents regardless.

I've played both FFXI and FFXIV. While they are both Final Fantasy MMOs, I don't think you can compare them in an apples-to-apples sort of way. One is an EQ-style MMO, while the other is a WoW-style MMO. They both cater to very different audiences.

FFXI's areas are great for the style of play it offers. It's a game that attempts to recreate an immersive world, complete with in-depth day/weather/moon phase mechanics that influence multiple aspects like crafting and spell resistance. You could literally calculate the best RL time to log in to accomplish a specific task that only occurs for a few hours in a week. As such, it's a game best served deliberately, and the expansive areas reflect the journeying commensurate with being immersed in such an orderly environment where every moment has subtle meaning.

FFXIV is meant to be a game you can pick-up and play any time and without the need to wait to get started. There's no need to calculate and jot out an entry in your RL calendar for the optimal time to play; anytime is optimal. The zones might not be as expansive as in FFXI, but large zones would not fit with the game's theme or audience. Zones do have tremendous character and they serve its tight story-telling quests well: Just about every corner has a story behind it, both in its history and in current events. Travel is fast because this game is meant for those who don't have time to journey for 20 minutes before actually starting the thing they meant to do.

I'm not sure exactly who "you" is here, but I'd suggest that we're already using a derivative of FFXI's class system. That's a fairly major crossover already.

My personal objection here is that most of what you've asked for are punitive systems designed to make the game arbitrarily harder to play. This was a strategy used in the early days of MMOs to prolong progression. It doesn't really fit now.

What would you like to see from FFXI that doesn't fall into this category?

That probably depends on what you consider to be "arbitrary" to begin with. While some players may enjoy removing obstacles that makes a game difficult, removing too many of those obstacles leaves none left to overcome and an unrewarding experience overall. I'm not a fan of every obstacle FFXI had, but I think modern MMOs have gone a bit far in streamlining the experience.

To be frank it wasn't the best MMO on the market and still at it's height it wouldn't win an all time great award. This is me it's coming from, I loved XI and it won my heart over when comparing to the actual great MMO at the time WoW (which I hated by the way). Greats are usually considered those that sell and make huge profits, also accessible to most people. XI was a great game at it's peak but not the greatest, it may be voted in the top 10 but would be lucky to hit top 3. The money WoW made when compared to XI is enough alone to prove that.

I also don't agree that constructive criticism is the same as some one whining. Ever done reports of pros and cons that have to go to management? I have and you have to word it in such a way that doesn't look like it's some one complaining for the sake of it. If I had started off this thread I would have said there are a lot of things I love about this game but not sure of the below or not a fan of: Insert list and keep it simple.

Teleporting - I miss the large amount of forced travel
Dungeons - Be nice to have random mobs that roam and maybe respawn
Zone size - Now with the game over 1 Year old 2.0, perhaps some large zones that are a lot bigger than the current ones. Without the copy and paste as well please.
Bosses - Add some random moves, instead of a pattern which is repetitive.
Punishment - Perhaps add a form of punishment for wiping, weakened state for a few minutes?

These are only ideas but what do people think? will SE add them in few years time?

Not really hard that, I have pretty much put what one person was complaining in 6 lines instead 50 and I have put it in such a way it seems like ideas and not whinny. It also doesn't look like I am attacking the core fundamentals of the game or even trying to make it more like XI.

I missed the post I highlighted in blue some how, but that sums FFXI up...

Maybe its not the game but some of the gamers nowadays. They just want end results and dont care how they get there, they just want the shiny new gear to show off and shiny graphics. They dont care about challenge anymore, imagination, depth or adventure. They just want to stand around Revenant's toll showing of the new gear.

Honestly after 50 crafting is pretty challenging as far as crafting goes.. . I really enjoy crafting in this game, I just wish the markets were a little better and RNG was better. RNG offers some unnecessary challenge sometimes. Seems SE always want to mess with the markets.. If they want to do something go after all the bots instead.

I Left FFXI because work got to much and wanted something simpler, myself.. I just want to see something different and maybe we still will. In FFXI pretty much every new expansion added something totally new to the game,some good and some bad. I just worry that it wont be this time witht he new expansion. I am afraid it will be dungeons, fates, primal just like before with a new quest line just like the major updates. I look forward to a new quest line. But they have not really talked about anything really new that hasn't been in the game. Golden saucer does sound interesting to me but that's not in the expansion, but I welcome some new stuff..



Edited, Jan 28th 2015 10:35am by Nashred

I think it memorization and pretty much every group does boss fight pretty much the same, either you memorize the fight or you cant. Every time you fight garuda every party does pretty much the exact same thing, its a memory thing.. Either you memorized the fight or you didn't and that why people fail.

There are different kinds of challenges that can make a fight challenging. With bosses in this game you go to youtube to learn a fight so you can memorize the fight. so who ever makes one of the first videos that is pretty much how every fight after goes.
Most people cant beat something because they have not researched the fight. Most cant learn the fight in the game because most dont have the patients to let them learn in the game. I dont think it has much to do with challenge.

It is really hard to explain but there are so many more skills that can be used other than memorizing a pattern..


PACMAN is a good example. You can play it and it can be really challenging but once people learn there is pattern because the game did the exact same-thing it no longer was challenging, it basically was memorizing a pattern..



Edited, Jan 28th 2015 11:09am by Nashred

It seems a lot of people romanticize FFXI pre-Abyssea. Since I played right on through Abyssea on up to the 99 cap and SoA and its endgame, a lot of the things people miss about FFXI no longer apply.

For example, FFXI used the aetheryte method of teleportation in SoA, throughout all the zones. Waypoints and Bivouacs meant that you only had to traverse a nasty zone once; after that, you could just Waypoint yourself within a short hike of your destination.

To me, it shows that SE wasn't afraid to bring over some of the good ideas they included in FFXIV to FFXI, as well. (Did you know there are iLvls in FFXI now? Since they have a hard cap of level 99.) They also went back and modified some of the more annoying battle structures from the old game to be more solo and pickup group friendly. Even my beloved Dynamis was completely overhauled.

The FFXI everyone pines for doesn't even exist any more. You can never go back.

Edited, Jan 28th 2015 1:56pm by Catwho

No they can't go back. Fortunately, there is big rumor of an offline pseudo FFXI/FFXII offline game releasing called FF16. Supposedly will be open world and way bigger world than Skyrim. The alleged director is Hiroyuki Ito, the director of FF6,IX, and FFXII. Supposed to be a innovation of the ADB battle system.

Maybe it will have crafting and co-op, who knows?

It would be interesting to see the sub numbers for XI before they started to change it and after, because if they did it to keep people playing I doubt it had the effect they were looking for. I could be wrong of course, I have not seen any numbers on it (have not looked either), but my own experience with it was that most of my LSs and people on my friends list dissapeared. I mean of course the numbers had been steadily declining, but that is when it just took a nosedive from my perspective at least.

Since I am one of the people who don't enjoy XIV (although it is a good game mind you) I am a bit sad that they also decided to change XI in ways that are more like XIV because it more or less drove me away from XI as well. I might be in a minority there too though of course, but I would not have minded if the argument "if you like it so much go play it" actually worked even if it isn't a good argument in itself and I don't think it should be used when discussing games.

About MMORGPs I get what you are saying Lonix and I've mentioned before that I think XIV made the right choice in their design on XIV simply because it entailed the least risk of all options. However, the industry as a whole I don't really feel the same way with. The design of MMORPGs have been too narrow and limited in scope ever since WoW made a big splash.

I think the industry needs to move away from having every game follow mostly the same concepts. I mean the argument that nothing else works might have some truth to it, but the fact of it is that I can't think of a single AAA MMORPG that has even tried anything else (XIV was a fail for so many reasons that had nothing to do with trying to be different in terms of mechanics/systems). There is a reason so many are bunny hopping between MMORPGs and most of them have problems with player retention. There are few MMORPGs people can even point to as real successes and amongst them is one that is quite different (EVE online), despite the amount of games following the standard formula compared to different. I think there is room for standard and different, but since WoW there are not a whole lot of developers who even tries to not be standard and personally I think it is hurting the industry. I would love to play an MMORPG at the moment, but there are no games out there for me.

The way it looks I think it is about to change somewhat which is nice. Hopefully more AAA developers can start to widen their scope so we get more variety in the industry because yes there are a lot of people who play and enjoy themepark MMORPGs made to the standard formula, but honestly there are those playing them who would actually go play something else if they had the option. There is a market for both and I think developers can earn good coin regardless of which type of game they choose to make, especially considering how many standard games that fail rather fast it might not always be such a safe bet.

Edited, Jan 29th 2015 11:20am by Belcrono

I'm not sure i can agree entirely with that.

For me it had to have been Adoulin. Once they started implementing ilevels and got rid of horizontal progression entirely, the game was beyond unplayable for me. It went from being about the stats to merely being about the ilevels. Good competent players in "good" gear who would have had no trouble partaking in any of the "new endgame" fights were suddenly excluded because people were requiring specific ilevels for stuff. I had an Aegis for crying out loud myself, but no. Since i didnt have the flavor of the week shield to go with the "super upgraded sword" instead of the regular endgame sword (hint: you cant get it if people dont let you join...) i suddenly wasnt allowed to come anymore even though it would have been easy beyond belief still. We went from a nice horizontal progression to needing to have the latest and greatest gear or you werent invited anymore. Gjallarhorn? That's too bad. You should have grinded for the harp instead.

Sure, we had some elitism like that before. But never on levels this bad. I put a good 11 years of my life into the game. But i never once regretted quitting when i did. Never looked back. Never returned. The game lost all glamour and magic for me the day they, for all intends and purposes, sold out.

I was deeply saddened when at the start of 2.0 Endgame was starting to go that way as well. It just became toxic. People were being excluded over the silliest things. It's less so the case now for some reason, people quieted down and all is good except for one or two people or maybe a despised FC somewhere. Still, it's all the influence of other MMO players that migrated to XIV i bet :/

To keep on topic, i never once felt there was any elitism in 1.0, ofcourse i did quit that when they went paid (and ruined that as well) so i dont know what happened in 1.23 eventually.