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I can understand the difficulty when it comes to being addressed from all sides, but when there are matters that really need to have multiple different perspectives addressed to, especially when it comes to the whole "my friends are bored, etc" debates, it pays to be armed with as many different sources of counter as possible, especially if you are in a situation where you're trying to convince others to stay.

I'm not going anywhere. I've got a small house of my own in Lavender Beds, we've got a pretty decked out Free Company hall in Mist with lots of rooms created for the soul purpose of having interesting locales to RP in. I've got several characters and story arcs to play through. So yeah, I'm here a while.

But we did have a member leave the FC due to disinterest in the game, even though they loved our RPs, and we did have one leave because they preferred different kinds of RPs. That's the ebb and flow of people. We don't want them to go, but you can't always convince people to share your interests, and you can't force the development to appeal to you specifically and exclusively.

What Yoshida and Crew have done, was release content in a variety of categories in a thin, but layering manner. So I expect more open world content to come, and have had that confirmed when they alluded to some sort of treasure hunting mechanic in the new flight-based zones.

As far as 'not addressing the whole of your post' I don't feel that it's relevant to. There are points where in a spoken conversation, I would be interrupting you, or you would be interrupting me, and addressing a matter you raise, even as simply an example. Or there may be a wide variety of points a person agrees with, is disinterested in, or has no opinion on. The victimization of an unpopular opinion? You're preaching to the choir circa 2007 and RDM melee debates. Or Circa 2005 through 2009 about Chains of Promethia difficulty debates.

When your opinion is unpopular, be prepared to defend it on all counts on all fronts. That happens on every game, every community, regardless of where you go or who you are. It's part of having an unpopular opinion. I make conscious effort to curb falling into that rutt when I can, but as I explained before, some mannerisms or words just beg for a reply. I'm not making any attempt at being abrasive here, and I sympathize, but I'm a touch fatalistic when it comes to forum communities. These things happen, you shrug them off, state your ideas and move on. At least, that's what I do.

In the end, I'm ok with open world content, but it's a double-edged sword. The way hunts were handled at launch, and really their innate flaw of being contested content is a perfect example of open world content gone wrong. I think the level of backlash they received on that matter has made them rethink how to work it going forward which may be part of the delay for content like that.

But they can do more for instance combat as well, in my view. Again, would love to see a Nyzule Isle-esque type engame/dungeon happening. But we may be a couple years off from that. Again, perspective. By this time in FFXI, we haven't even seen dynamis, Expeditionary Force is just coming out and "Sky" is on the horizon.

Really, I think there needs be an organized push for a wider endgame in the Forums just to say "Hey, multiple raid difficulties are nice, but let's broaden things a bit." I honestly don't want to be stuck picking the best out of two sets of gear for my min-maxing.

Well, it's a safe bet that the game will last then, seeming they've already announced beyond all that, before we even hit a new expansion.

The criticism of those who are asking for something new but not offering suggestion remains. Nashred and myself already made suggestions as far as what would help expand on an endgame "They need to add something more." is a dunce of a complaint, I'm sorry. It's valid to say you're getting bored or if the same old progression content is getting stale.

It's the utter lack of specificity when it comes to the solution that gets me. If all they needed was 'something new' then Golden Saucer should be good enough for some people, and it's not even endgame. After all, it comes with answers for 3 standing requests, Chocobo Raising, Chocobo Racing, and Tripple Triad, on top of other fluff.

If we want to press a narrative that will get SE moving, we need to start organizing these loose feelings and doom sayings into some constructive feedback. In spite of all of the problems it generated, hunts were produced from organized player feedback. The players wanted a NM system and they made it apparent, loudly. They were fairly clear on that general point even though they argued over the details. SE changed its development course to accommodate, as stated specifically by Yoshida in interviews and dev panels. It wasn't something they planned on doing. And in spite of the 'nerfs' (which barely effected the organized groups.) it was still a good source of sands, and oils, until the ilvl rise, and still is a good source of alexandrite. Beyond that, they expressed plans to modify and expand upon Hunts with the new expansion back when questions were asked about Hunts before even the Fanfests started.

So we know that player feedback has an effect, when organized. If we want to expand upon the content we should have, something focused is going to be better than a general bemoaning.

So... what should be be working towards or rallying behind? Because if we're not going to give suggestions, we leave it up to SE to derp around blindly on, and that will take time.

The way FFXIV Does story content I think is the best. A single, complete story upon release, then with each patch, there is like a continuation. We had a great story with 2.0, but it continues ON with 2.1 and so on, and by no means was the story bad either. No players left with major cliffhangers waiting to complete the expansion story, but more of a transition that makes the next upcoming expansion that much better to look forward to.

It worked, and it worked well. I'd rather they continued along that vein, then ever take up FFXI's story mantle.

If that is your mentality, then you are better served playing single player games than MMOs. That level of entitlement serves no one.

MMO's are inherently a social function, both developers and the players alike, and both benefit greatly from an open and vocal exchange. Developers who attempt 'new an interesting ideas' in an MMO environment have been proven, time and time again, that such frivolities are worthless if they don't appeal focused to your intended target audience. SWTOR, Guild Wars 2 (and FFXIV 1.0 to a degree, even if some contest that a 'finished' 1.0 would have been successful) all suffered from mechanics that tried to be 'unique and interesting' and ultimately failed because tried and true expectations were not met.

And MMO is a two-way investment. One on behalf of the developer, and one on behalf of the player. To better the experience for the player, the demands of the player must be made known and appealed to within reason. Likewise doing so earns a more stable base for the developer and communicating their goals and limits helps them refine their intended base.

Refusing to partake in your half of the investment encourages only the habit of jumping from one MMO to another, as others guide a game away from your supposed expectations - you never become the audience to appeal to and will be met with constant disappointment.

Yoshida and his team have proven at this point that they are responsive to feedback. The responce is not always the desired outcome but action is taken on feedback and attempts to listen and meet the needs an desires of players are being met. Again, Hunts was something that was conceived in direct answer to feedback - it was not an intended feature, but will now be continued and grow based off of more feedback and discoveries provided. A company that's willing to make those sort of actions to meet the desires of its players is, in my opinion worth the investment.

Appealing to the generalized bemoaning of the malcontent expectant to have psychic-level anticipation of what an entitled player views as interesting or dynamic, in my opinion, is not. Yoshida and the other developers will make content based off of what they find interesting themselves as well as listen to feedback. If you truly want content to appeal to you, you will partake in that feedback portion. Otherwise, take what you've been served or leave it. Complaining about your plight while doing nothing for it (to take some inspiration from Dragon Age:Inquisition) it is like standing in the middle of a burning building waiting to be rescued, and complaining to the fireman that it's hot when they arrive.

I'm sorry Hio. There is a fundamental difference in the story writing and pacing here. FFXIV did the patching right where FFXI did the story patching terribly, IMO.

FFXI took one contained story and chopped it up into pieces and split it into patches.

FFXIV wrote a major story that resolves at the start, then kept an ongoing conflict that continues from the first major story into the second major story, with self-contained episodes that link major plot A to major Plot B.

When you think of the story of A Realm Reborn, you don't think of A Realm Awoken, Through the Maelstrom, Defenders of Eorzea, Dreams of Ice, and Before the Fall as part of it. If you do, you're reaching.

A Realm Reborn is the journey from 1-50 which is in itself a complete story. Credits Roll and everything. All of it was part of the INITIAL release of a Realm Reborn. The story was flushed out. At the end if it, before 2.1, you felt you completed that particular tale. The only twist was after the credits to guide you to The Binding Coil and to let you know the Ascians were still out there. That was to tell you the game was not over, and that more story was to come.

But it wasn't cutting you off for three months in the middle of a plot arc for no reason. You finished a primary story arc and that was it. The interceding Episodic Content explains how we go from Operation Archon to the Battle of Ishgard. Rize of the Zilart's staggered release never did that, nor did Chains of Promithia. Instead, they linked them in hindsight later on. Nothing connects CoP to ToAU.

Explain, for a moment, if you can, how the long, drawn out story of Wings of the Goddess leads you to the next expansion?

You don't. They're separate stories. FFXI's storytelling was horrid that way, right up until the day I quit. The writing itself was great, but it was horridly chopped, you were left hanging in the middle of something, without so much as a boss battle in some instances.

Here. Each story is self-contained, but inter-linking. You played through the main storyline and resolved the primary conflict introduced via the Empire and Lahabrea. However, Lahabrea survived so the conflict with him continues. You didn't wait three months after SpoilerThancred was revealed to be possessed by Lahabrea and Ultima Weapon Pwned and absorbed 3 Primals. you went on and solved that problem. As you did with every primary conflict that arose in the individual patches as well. Yes, there is still an over-arching plot going on, but that likely won't even be primarily resolved with Before the Fall either - it's the background antagonist plot of the game - the plot device that keeps the story both moving forward, and connected.

Instead of multiple coincidental threats to the world of Vana'diel, it's one inherent threat to Eorzea that is using multiple avenues to achieve its goal.

Again, I prefer this story-writing so much better, and I hope they keep Heavensward contained like they did the 2.0 arc. Even if everyone consumes that story quickly, they at least get a whole story involved, and then can look forward to more interceding plot with each 3.# patches.

Edited, Jan 6th 2015 2:15am by Hyrist

Didn't XI's original nation storytelling stop at 50 with the Shadow Lord fight? And the teaser for RotZ at the end of that fight was Lion inviting you to come visit her in Norg some time.

Or maybe they stopped just before that at first at 50 cap, and added the Shadow Lord fight when the level cap went up to 60. I wasn't playing at JP launch so I have no idea.

I do like that XIV has named major patches, each one with their own mini logo.

Ha ha ha haaa.

Yep - Original story stopped at Shadow Lord which is why it was a "tough" final battle type fight, then it teased into RoTZ and went into launch. CoP went till just before Omega/Ultima Airship fight, then it continued the overarching storyline. Then ToAU had grouped missions (first set was quite just about the same length as 2.4 for example) then it had cliff hangers with plenty of filler missions (like XIV's setup) So yeah, it's the exact same format presented differently, unless someone can go into full detail about how 2.0/2.1/2.2/2.3/2.4 and 2.5 are entirely separate storylines that has nothing to do with the game's lore nor storyline. The fact it's named is what reminds me exactly of XI's mini-addons, as those weren't expansions but new storylines that were retained in the "main" game's storyline.

This is why people both liked and hated WotG, because it finally gave us a peak at this "crystal war" we heard about from NPCs so much including during the ranked story, but due to XIV's production it dragged on faaaaaaaar too long. (it's no coincidence WotG finished after XIV 1.0 released.)

The first MMO I played was Everquest, actually the reason I joined Allakhazam back in 2000 or 2001. That game had so much open world content and many hazards you became aware of, usually the hard way. You'd have random high level mobs wandering a low level zone which people would communicate in /shout about to warn fellow players about (think Guivre in FFXI), some zones would suddenly crawl with high-level undead at night, or you'd have the odd undercon wandering around a zone which when scanned might show as Very Easy or Easy to kill then would proceed to hand you your behind.

FFXI had some of this previously and they removed it (thinking zoning mechanic revamp) which indicates the average player really doesn't want that level of challenge or misery in their gameplay. As much as I enjoyed the near masochistic levels of punishment in EQ I really can't see a place for it in the current MMO market.

Shadow Lord Fight and 50 cap were the end of primary story-line for the original game. There were nation quests eventually added, but there were no interlinking additions between Shadow Lord and beginning or RoTZ. It was literally "Oh wait, you thought you beat the Shadow Lord? LAWL, you got Pwned and don't even remember it, silly adventurer!" I feel it was a horribly jarring transition, even if the cutscene that introduced it was pretty epic.

CoP Wasn't the only content that was chopped before conclusion. RoTZ was as well and NA never got to experience that as it was fully out before released in NA. Iiirc There was about a six month gap before players could finish RoTZ and nation storylines.

Point being, there was no interlinking story between CoP and RoTZ, it was a flat, and jarring transition. Same with CoP. These stories were unrelated until they were combined in post conclusion stories.

The presentation is much different here than it was in FFXI. The format can be argued to be similar, but the execution of that format is far from. It's the difference between a 2-hour special that sets up a television series, and a movie that periodically stops in the middle of climaxes.

2.0 is the opening special - a complete tale that opens a wider story. The Various 2.# patches are the episodes that lead up to the Battle of Ishgard and the opening of Heavensward.

Thus far, the storytelling format is much different than what Shadowlord to RoTZ has been, and successfully done at that, IMO. What I would like to happen, but am uncertain of that going forward is for them to continue that format. That the expansion contain, on release, a singular storyline much like how we had with 2.0. then, with continuing patches, release additional stories in relation to the overall Ascian arc, which I doubt will be concluded here.



Here's where the nasty little reality check comes in, and not to you personally, but to that argument in general. A small peek into the world of business.

'You' are not SE's only customer. You may not even be a valued customer. Business relations are a two-way street, not a one-way. People are plentiful and diverse in their desires. It's never nice to be told that you aren't needed, that there will be others to take your place if you leave, but that's the cold hard truth of it. SE needs only create a product that appeals to enough people to meet their goals, and 'you' may not be one of them.

I had to hit that little reality check with FFXI. Sometimes the games you want to love or have appeal to your gaming sensibilities, simply doesn't. That doesn't make it universally a terrible product. Many will find quality where you do not, or enjoy features you do not.

It takes a monumental level of failure, like releasing a product completely unfinished, like FFXIV 1.0 to go, to really cause that level of Catastrophic, and we're miles above that bar at this point. It's foolish to think the thoughts of one individual or group of individual represent the whole. Games that are considered 'failures' in others eyes still run very successfully in the eyes of others.

This is why I push for organizing a clear, unified voice. A divided voice is a powerless one. SE's not entitled to your money, but they can easily just dupe another to cash in a subscription, if they end up liking what you don't.


Edited, Jan 6th 2015 1:16pm by Hyrist

I don't think we currently have the appropate structure to house something along the lines of a major city attack, though SE could easily do that with a following expansion. Imagine in Al Mhingo we could take by cities and hold them from the Empire, and that the open world plot of the game would be about the struggle to reclaim the lost kingdom? That would be an awesome concept.

In the meanwhile, something smaller scale, along the lines of Hamlet Defense, would make a lot more sense to me. They're vulnerable, easily raided by the Beastmen.

Also, branching dungeons. Ones that you can only explore a portion of during a single visit, so that you become invested in exploring these paths and choices within the dungeon itself, rather than be guided through a one path dungeon.

Danger is something that could certainly be considered relative, too.

Using Rel's quote, I can think of a few issues specifically with what's brought up before even going into the MPK angle. Wandering mobs tend to justify a constant panning of the camera. For some people, this can become disorienting or accumulate into stress and frustration when that level of vigilance must be maintained for long periods. And sometimes all of that can just plain be "rewarded" with an unfortunate respawn that results in a death. The night spawns, while I'm not against variable populations, also risks skewing a player's progression if, for example, the zone was workable during the day, but suddenly isn't at night. If night lasts for 10-20 minutes in an hour, they may as well AFK. So, if you're time limited and log on at or just before the night period, well, blah? And under-con mobs are just devs trolling.

But going more into comparing "dangerous" open world scenarios, I can think of a number of games that have large swathes of zones populated with nothing but elite-type mobs. Barring some niche instances, these usually aren't too solo friendly, which subsequently translates to a number of areas that see minimal traffic, usually only tied to some form of quest/mission progression. Now, a dev could up appeal for fighting these mobs by giving them high EXP rewards and better loot, which may bring some parties together from time to time, but then you risk a situation where if that's TOO good, the game shifts toward these areas being over-camped, leveling itself being elite farm hopping, and increased social expectations to streamline this process like playing a job "properly" or being in HQ everything. This style of leveling also tends to detach people from any attempt at lore building. Such may be "okay" if this is someone's second job/class/alt, but it does get problematic if you short-circuit the first-timer's experience. Granted, some people don't care and just want to raid-raid-raid, which I could see this experience sort of being a little brother to.

Arguably, subjecting one's self to danger should be a voluntary process. If PvP is involved, the why should be obvious. For PvE, it gets a bit more murky for reasons I've touched on in both paragraphs. This perhaps lends credence to open instance with variable difficulties where reward isn't different in terms of quality, but quantity. So, if a quest calls for killing a specific NM, if you're solo, you can solo it, but if you're in a party of 4, it could be scaled up to be a challenge to such a group and offer payouts individually that'd be slightly greater than those 4 just soloing it individually. Some might understandably urge that the harder stuff should have different, better rewards, but this takes us back to the issue of making elite areas too good and fostering a singular way to play that just isn't going to mesh with everyone. Sadly, there's also an accompanying sentiment that people don't deserve to be on the same level even though they're unlikely to interact with others outside their own personal circle too often. They spin entitlement and all its related negatives, but the irony is they're doing the whole pot-kettle thing and oftentimes preaching a game would be better off with less people playing it as long as those people are like them. Personally, I have no issue with vanity things like costumes, pets, and titles helping to identify a difference between those who've taken on content in its hardest difficulty and not, but for those in the not and such reasons being outside their control, it leads to a more shallow game. In XIV's case, this is most readily seen through people who've never done Coil even with the Echo in place. They may have tried, yes, but 7 others gotta be in sync.

Of course, danger can manifest in ways beyond a mob kicking our butt. Think jumping puzzles, something XIV isn't really deep with at the moment and may never be. Regardless, when you've spent five minutes trying to get to a specific point and a perilous jump means starting all over, you REALLY don't want to mess up. It feels great if you make it, sure, but failure still has a consequence even if it isn't immediately translated to some kind of currency fee. Something I don't think I've really seen any game do yet is tie something like this into active events like FATEs. They might not be always available, but if you chance upon them, you should definitely want to try to participate to shake up the playing experience. Lore reasons can certainly be scribed around encounters like this. So in the end, it's really up to a dev to decide if it's worth the time to create since it's a bit harder than just killing a bunch of things that randomly spawn.

And for those who are indeed craving danger, flying mounts are probably the worst thing that can happen to an open world game. I'm not exactly wild about this being a thing in 3.0, but can at least understand the desire from a sightseeing perspective. Stuff like avoiding aggro between two integral points could be handled in other ways like aetherytes/waypoints. On the other hand, if done right, it does have the potential to add some exploration options. Not inherently dangerous on their own, but still possible.