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2.3+ Slowly coming in.Follow

#77 May 03 2014 at 12:53 PM Rating: Default
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Swiftskye wrote:
I was hoping they would throw in some kind of new "class/role category" type thing. Right now we have the blue tank class, red DPS class, and green healer class.... They should put in like a yellow support class, throw brd and whatever other new class in there, and give them a new LB. ^^


Sadly this game doesn't support...support classes, which is why BRD isn't truly a support class lol (and why you can get away with not even touching songs in the majority of this game's content, it only comes into play in so few content that it was better off being a cross class skill.) Only time you see it used in a lot of content is if your DPS is so low you NEED Foe (if BLMs) and your healers have no clue what MP management is or constantly raising people who don't know how to dodge a train.



Edited, May 3rd 2014 11:53am by Theonehio
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#78 May 03 2014 at 1:05 PM Rating: Decent
Theonehio wrote:
Swiftskye wrote:
I was hoping they would throw in some kind of new "class/role category" type thing. Right now we have the blue tank class, red DPS class, and green healer class.... They should put in like a yellow support class, throw brd and whatever other new class in there, and give them a new LB. ^^


Sadly this game doesn't support...support classes, which is why BRD isn't truly a support class lol


And thank god for that, Yoshi-P knows how to design a multiplayer game. Four distinct roles to fill and make relevant for every group content? That only works when having a yellow color in the game is more important than designing a game that makes sense.
#79 May 03 2014 at 1:20 PM Rating: Decent
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Except Yoshi P said they will add support/hybrid as its own role for a 2/2/2/2 setup so.....yeah. Like I predicted before, expect Bard to get changed at that time (some will of course say "nerfed" but meh).
#80 May 03 2014 at 1:39 PM Rating: Default
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ChoochZero wrote:
Except Yoshi P said they will add support/hybrid as its own role for a 2/2/2/2 setup so.....yeah. Like I predicted before, expect Bard to get changed at that time (some will of course say "nerfed" but meh).


Yoshi-P says a lot of things, though. It would be interesting if he could get it to work but this game's battle system barely supports true pet classes, so a support class would be interesting since remember how limited classes are and how limited job skills are. Bard for example has some nice songs, though missing 1 song and Battle Voice effect from 1.2x, but you rarely use em because in general they aren't needed.

So if the game itself can function without what little support we already have, that makes a support class useless out the gate. On some of the "tougher" content like Second Coil, there could be a use, but then that begs the question: What of Summoner? We know it's not a pet class since the main DPS from the SMN is the DoTs and not actually the pet, while the pet can add to your DPS..normally SMN's main DPS should be from the Pet itself and why Garuda is preferred because of DoT extension more than anything.

Hybrids are easier to make with how they backed themselves into a corner design wise since it could have its base skills and job skills be pretty much anything, but 'specializing' doesn't work well with this design of an MMO.
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#81 May 03 2014 at 2:19 PM Rating: Decent
Theonehio wrote:
We know it's not a pet class since the main DPS from the SMN is the DoTs and not actually the pet, while the pet can add to your DPS..normally SMN's main DPS should be from the Pet itself and why Garuda is preferred because of DoT extension more than anything.


"We" know your definition of a pet class is definitely... special.

I hope Yoshi-P doesn't ruin the meta by bringing in the support role, but now that you mention it I do remember him saying something similar. This game definitely doesn't need more irreplaceable class roles required for most contents.
#82 May 03 2014 at 3:24 PM Rating: Decent
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Hyanmen wrote:
Theonehio wrote:
We know it's not a pet class since the main DPS from the SMN is the DoTs and not actually the pet, while the pet can add to your DPS..normally SMN's main DPS should be from the Pet itself and why Garuda is preferred because of DoT extension more than anything.


"We" know your definition of a pet class is definitely... special.

I hope Yoshi-P doesn't ruin the meta by bringing in the support role, but now that you mention it I do remember him saying something similar. This game definitely doesn't need more irreplaceable class roles required for most contents.


Ruin the meta?? By adding depth? The game is overly simple, the best thing this game could get is depth to the party roles.
#83 May 03 2014 at 3:34 PM Rating: Excellent
There are times in Ex NMs that I really kind of wish I was on my XI WHM instead on XIV WHM. At least that way I could do stuff like make people hit faster.
#84 May 03 2014 at 4:23 PM Rating: Decent
Louiscool wrote:
Hyanmen wrote:
Theonehio wrote:
We know it's not a pet class since the main DPS from the SMN is the DoTs and not actually the pet, while the pet can add to your DPS..normally SMN's main DPS should be from the Pet itself and why Garuda is preferred because of DoT extension more than anything.


"We" know your definition of a pet class is definitely... special.

I hope Yoshi-P doesn't ruin the meta by bringing in the support role, but now that you mention it I do remember him saying something similar. This game definitely doesn't need more irreplaceable class roles required for most contents.


Ruin the meta?? By adding depth? The game is overly simple, the best thing this game could get is depth to the party roles.


It's too bad if you can't see the repercussions of making group content require four rigid roles when we're already struggling lining up three for all contents as-is. Thinning out the population between four roles will definitely not help. Depth is only good when it doesn't come at a massive cost to convenience. No amount of depth is good enough if the end result is me waiting in town longer to be able to play the game. Waiting around in town sounds like something XI vets would enjoy, but I'd hardly call it the best 'feature' the game could get.

Edited, May 3rd 2014 10:24pm by Hyanmen
#85 May 03 2014 at 4:26 PM Rating: Decent
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Hyanmen wrote:
No amount of depth is good enough if the end result is me waiting in town longer to be able to play the game.


Best part is, that actually wouldn't happen considering you already do as such now if you're a DPS. Unless you're on a magical server where you never, ever had to wait 17-70 minutes+ to get into content as a DPS, since the DF was put there to be used, and the PF most people tend to go with very specific setups and if you don't have that job leveled and geared..tough ******* Roulettes can help with queue times but you have no choice in what you want to do.

I don't see how adding depth would change that....but you did pretty much explain why the 4 man setup is heavily restrictive. We didn't have this problem when party size was 15, but only had a few choices, and when party size was scaled back to 8 you could have honestly any setup you wanted unless you wanted easy win button setup that was pretty popular with NA players (as they said content was "impossible" with anything other than THM/BLM.)



Edited, May 3rd 2014 3:27pm by Theonehio
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#86 May 03 2014 at 4:52 PM Rating: Good
Theonehio wrote:
Hyanmen wrote:
No amount of depth is good enough if the end result is me waiting in town longer to be able to play the game.


Best part is, that actually wouldn't happen considering you already do as such now if you're a DPS. Unless you're on a magical server where you never, ever had to wait 17-70 minutes+ to get into content as a DPS, since the DF was put there to be used, and the PF most people tend to go with very specific setups and if you don't have that job leveled and geared..tough ******* Roulettes can help with queue times but you have no choice in what you want to do.

I don't see how adding depth would change that....but you did pretty much explain why the 4 man setup is heavily restrictive. We didn't have this problem when party size was 15, but only had a few choices, and when party size was scaled back to 8 you could have honestly any setup you wanted unless you wanted easy win button setup that was pretty popular with NA players (as they said content was "impossible" with anything other than THM/BLM.)


Yeah, it's already bad enough as a DPS. Why would I want another complication further lengthening my queue times? The more absolutely necessary roles there are harder it is to fill all of those roles for any given contents. Yet if they aren't absolutely necessary then the game is completely unbalanced. It's pretty damn simple.

As a DPS, I don't want to be waiting around for a tank, a healer AND a support player. The queue times would be insane. It's a self-destructive way to add any depth at best.

Edited, May 3rd 2014 10:54pm by Hyanmen
#87 May 04 2014 at 9:11 AM Rating: Good
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The whole support class thing is more about variety than anything. As was mentioned earlier, bringing bard into that role and severly limiting their damage would probably **** some people off, but make others happy. Let them actually put those songs to work, you know? A bard isnt much of a bard if they don't do what bards are supposed to do. Take FFXI's bard for example. Now that's what I would personally like seeing implemented into 14's bard. Perhaps not -exactly- the same, but somewhere around there.. maybe give some more songs that increase phys/mag damage, etc - things like that.

And as for the 2nd role, they could easily do something like how RDM was in 11. I don't know how RDM is post seekers expansion, but back when the level cap was 75 (Last time I played it), RDM was excellent support. Enfeebles can help turn the tide of any battle. I see mobs all over Eorzea casting Paralyze and such on people, so why can't we do the same? Sure you have a PLD that can blind, DRG/MNK that can slow, and of course the master of DOT's SMN, but they could make it so that a RDM-ish type class, while also not big on dishing out damage, can certainly make things alot easier for everyone else in the party.

Finally, a support class LB. Personally, I think it's kind of silly giving BRD a healing LB. They could do something like... where tank has their damage mitigation LB for X seconds, support can increase all stats (STR/DEX/INT/MND) for X seconds. It's simple and useful.

Anywho, these are all just random ideas, but what im saying is... if they wanted to make it work, they certainly could. And do so in such a way that would be interesting and, more importantly, fun! ^^

#88 May 04 2014 at 2:44 PM Rating: Excellent
Steal blatantly from XI's bard two hour. Double the potency of songs sung for two minutes or grant the effect of a second song. Could provide the needed DPS boost to get past certain bosses.
#89 May 04 2014 at 6:09 PM Rating: Excellent
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I'll be "that guy" and state jobs like BRD and RDM were poorly designed in XI. I'd even put WHM in this category if you want to take Banish/Holy and their melee potential into consideration. Now, I know some people better perform if they can just hang back and focus on singular thing like healing, putting songs up, or (re)casting enfeebles (if they could even land...), but the general premise of functional hybrid should mean that all of its tools should be useful and rarely, if ever, a detriment to their overall performance if employed.

BRD was bad because it was basically the lazy man's support if you weren't pulling. Cast a couple songs and maybe play a wannabe back-up WHM for 2 minutes. Simplification? Perhaps, but gear requirements also weren't that terribly demanding. It certainly earned its label as princess job because despite how effective it was, especially when it came to 2 hour party rotations, it wasn't exactly a job many wanted to play for, lack of a better word, glory.

RDM pretty much contradicted itself because magic and melee did not play nice. Single-target everything made buffing up your party a chore. Time spent casting was time you couldn't literally swing with one of the game's poorest weapon categories. Enspells underperformed. Gear selection and skill ratings did not hold up for difficult content. Short supply of WHMs fueled a need for healers, shirking the duty off to the next class with high tier cures. People liked to EXP on weak mobs with moves that needed dispelled, too. MP regeneration was a pain in the *** in XI, both via resting and Refresh/Ballad. Nuking suffered most from accuracy, with the obvious caveat of picking a BLM or eventually a SCH if you needed magic damage with both greater accuracy and oomph. Then you had the enfeebling library, not only limited in variety, but so very often incapable of landing on endgame prey to the point other classes were just as effective with the floored rates if immunity wasn't a thing. SE did such a job in making sure the class remained (below) average that its eventual plummet into obscurity when WHM got the buffs it needed and the underwhelming gains of the level cap rise came at zero surprise to me. I spent probably far more years than I should've trying to bring up these deficiencies to SE as well as arguing with people who likely didn't have the betterment of the class/game in mind. In the end, at its peak, the job was just one of those people maybe wanted around, but never wanted to play. If **** hit the fan, it was always your fault.

Anyway, in seeing what we have of BLM, WHM, and other melee classes in XIV, I could formulate a concept of how a RDM would or should perform in Eorzea. It definitely wouldn't be the backline mage of XI, but it also wouldn't be the solo "god" some feared from there, either. Overall, all I can do is hope SE avoids implementing particularly passive classes/jobs. Reacting is one thing, but looking ahead and enacting plans toward a particular goal is another.
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#90 May 04 2014 at 8:47 PM Rating: Good
BRD gear actually got a bit more important in the last few months in XI. There's the whole "3 song only!" thing that came out last year where only Dharp bards were wanted, but more importantly, with the iLvl increases and the more difficult content, a bard who was only wearing three year old Empyrean +2 body gear would turn into a pancake pretty fast. And it's nigh on impossible to hit debuffs on mobs in Outer Ra'kazar or whatever it's called without a massive investment in magic accuracy.

I basically had to overhaul my entire gear set. Thankfully, the latest Gearswap XML was pre-built to account for a high defense idle set (Gendewitha) so I didn't have to built that into the XML myself.

But yeah, if bard isn't pulling, it's a lazy job. Even if you're a 3-4 song bard.
#91 May 04 2014 at 8:52 PM Rating: Excellent
Red mage was at its peak back when 4k/hour was AWESOME exp. The job was great for enfeebling, crowd control and backup healing... even dropping nukes when MP permitted.

But, yeah, endgame... lol. SE forgot to give RDM a purpose there (beyond chainspell stun).

It only got worse from there, as rdm was turned into a refresh/haste bot to facilitate the WTFTPBURN parties.
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#92 May 04 2014 at 9:16 PM Rating: Default
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Thayos wrote:
Red mage was at its peak back when 4k/hour was AWESOME exp. The job was great for enfeebling, crowd control and backup healing... even dropping nukes when MP permitted.

But, yeah, endgame... lol. SE forgot to give RDM a purpose there (beyond chainspell stun).

It only got worse from there, as rdm was turned into a refresh/haste bot to facilitate the WTFTPBURN parties.


Yeah since back then it was the only job that can solo certain gods and HNMs, so SE honestly didn't seem like they wanted to touch it lol.
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#93 May 04 2014 at 11:23 PM Rating: Excellent
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Theonehio wrote:
We know it's not a pet class since the main DPS from the SMN is the DoTs and not actually the pet


Uh...

~30-40% is Garuda's damage not even including contagion
25-35% is SMN DoT
35-40% is fester/ruin

Edited, May 5th 2014 1:26am by HitomeOfBismarck
#94 May 05 2014 at 2:49 AM Rating: Default
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Thayos wrote:
Red mage was at its peak back when 4k/hour was AWESOME exp. The job was great for enfeebling, crowd control and backup healing... even dropping nukes when MP permitted.

But, yeah, endgame... lol. SE forgot to give RDM a purpose there (beyond chainspell stun).

It only got worse from there, as rdm was turned into a refresh/haste bot to facilitate the WTFTPBURN parties.


Yet... our core party in alliances always had a RDM for Enfeebling duties, Phalanx II, Refresh, etc. I'm talking HNM, Dynamis, Salvage. Pretty much everything that was considered "end game". Maybe we were playing different games?

They certainly got a bit obsoleted once Abyssea hit and WHM had access to limitless MP, better cures, and Atma made us giants. I don't know about the situation post Abyssea because I quit in disgust over poor service and the Voidwatch Empy weapon grind. But that's 7 years of relevance in the vast majority of events people took part in.

This forum has always been a bit butthurt over the RDM design in XI, but saying that they didn't fill a role (an important one at that) in the high level content of XI is utter garbage. Not able to stick your enfeebles? Chances are your gear wasn't up to scratch or Elemental Seal was required for sticking the important ones. Hell, even if certain enfeebles couldn't be stuck to certain bosses, it just freed people up for nuking or w/e else they wanted to do. The smart people had more than one job they could bring to an event. You just didn't get to swing a sword at things, but that was something most players realised in the dunes at level 10. Not something they carried as a grudge for years and years. Carrying around a plethora of staffs was a bit silly, but then hey, I was a BLM, so that complaint is invalid. I had half an inventory full of gear just for changing weather conditions and which particular day of the week it was..
#95 May 05 2014 at 3:56 AM Rating: Excellent
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The elemental staves certainly didn't help RDM's cause, even if it was something as simple as the cure potency on light/apollo's and eventually magian's. Not using them effectively gimped your casting, which more or less ties into my earlier point that melee and magic didn't play nice in XI. That didn't have to be the case, but Tanaka and co. just refused to give a hybrid the tools it needed to actually be a hybrid. Calling it butthurt might be an incredibly passive aggressive way to blow off the issue, but RDM and the other more accepted hybrid classes like DRK, BLU, and PLD could've been better in their own ways.

As for BLM or even super situational gear, I know some really got their jollies out of such and maybe it artificially expanded the game's lifespan in some ways, but I'd also say staff swapping hurt BLM in the long haul, too. Sure, Claustrum sucked, their Mythic was out of reach for pretty much everyone, and Empy wasn't much better than Claustrum. The elemental staves were probably one of the biggest bonehead moves made for XI behind Utsusemi and maybe even allowing in-combat gear swaps on the mechanical end.

But this is all kind of veering off topic now with the closest relation really just being how one might handle new/revised jobs in the XIV sphere. Should probably feel silly I can still get so... passionate over a game I haven't really played in 2.5 years.
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#96 May 05 2014 at 8:28 AM Rating: Decent
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Bard having the healer limit break is so good, when both healers drop, being able to raise at last minute to possibly prevent a wipe is very good.

Shameless self-plugging from the old job thread on what I think hybrid/support should be like (disclaimer: I was a career RDM in FFXI until I stopped playing about 6 years ago):

http://ffxiv.zam.com/forum.html?forum=152&mid=1392978707212055057&h=50&p=2#59
#97 May 05 2014 at 8:42 AM Rating: Decent
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If they're going to really put in a 4th support role, maybe they could make it a 'stance' where you don't have to level up a whole new class. Like BRD could queue up as support in Minstrel Stance and be delegated to doing more buffing, or a Scholar could queue as Kineseology Stance and buff attack rates and defense or something.. idk...

Edited, May 5th 2014 7:42am by LebargeX
#98 May 05 2014 at 9:13 AM Rating: Good
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Seriha wrote:
The elemental staves certainly didn't help RDM's cause, even if it was something as simple as the cure potency on light/apollo's and eventually magian's. Not using them effectively gimped your casting, which more or less ties into my earlier point that melee and magic didn't play nice in XI. That didn't have to be the case, but Tanaka and co. just refused to give a hybrid the tools it needed to actually be a hybrid. Calling it butthurt might be an incredibly passive aggressive way to blow off the issue, but RDM and the other more accepted hybrid classes like DRK, BLU, and PLD could've been better in their own ways.

As for BLM or even super situational gear, I know some really got their jollies out of such and maybe it artificially expanded the game's lifespan in some ways, but I'd also say staff swapping hurt BLM in the long haul, too. Sure, Claustrum sucked, their Mythic was out of reach for pretty much everyone, and Empy wasn't much better than Claustrum. The elemental staves were probably one of the biggest bonehead moves made for XI behind Utsusemi and maybe even allowing in-combat gear swaps on the mechanical end.

But this is all kind of veering off topic now with the closest relation really just being how one might handle new/revised jobs in the XIV sphere. Should probably feel silly I can still get so... passionate over a game I haven't really played in 2.5 years.


Seriha, you'll find that many MMOs have a hard time figuring out just where hybrids should sit.

If you take a look at WoW, there are often complaints from 'pure' classes (like mage for instance) about certain hybrid classes (let's say elemental shaman) perhaps doing their job better and also adding group buffs.

I'm not discrediting your points, though. It's very hard to balance a game around hybrids because they are, by nature, a hard role to balance.

RDMs were in an interesting position in 11 pre-whatever the hell screwed up the entire system (I take it that it was the raise in level cap?). Even before then, RDMs were known for their soloing abilities. I would constantly use my RDM to solo (with sword and shield in hand) stuff that other classes would have had a hard time doing. I consider this a portion of the hybrid role. You wanted hybrid roles in parties and I don't think that was very conducive to 11's idea of parties.

You may think that RDM solo meant kiting things endlessly for hours and you were right in many cases. However, I believe their abilities (that were mostly hybrid) allowed them to perform this kiting successfully where others would fail. BLMs would fail due to too much specialization in the elemental and not enough in the cure department where WHMs could not pull off the offensive part well enough.

Lazy design? Sure. Look at BST and all they had to offer then look at how the design limited them as a result. Same with so many other jobs in that game. At the same time, we did have some hybrid ability that wasn't necessarily expressed within the party itself. Perhaps you don't consider this true hybridization but I think it came close.

On the flip side: look at WoW where hybrids are generally well received. Sometimes, they go a little too far and the hybrids end up being able to do too much which throws off game balance. I don't consider BRD or COR to be hybrids but they're examples of support roles that really threw the game mechanics for a loop.

Granted, a lot of these imbalanced were PVP-related. Still, you can see the opposite side of the coin.




As for FF14....I feel that they did a great job with WHM and SCH for hybridization using cleric stance. Both SCH and WHM are able to put out respectable numbers while sacrificing their primary role's attributes. But, they can switch between this mode very quickly which is nice.

PLD needs a little work. Sword oath is just a scratch on the surface. WAR is actually pretty good at hybrid roles with defiance on and off and DPS equipment.

The other jobs are pure except for BRD. BRD has the potential to become the first support role if the songs are adjusted when they do decide to introduce the other actual support jobs.

I think it's possible and wouldn't mind seeing more complexity in an already bland MMO.

Edited, May 5th 2014 11:16am by HitomeOfBismarck
#99 May 05 2014 at 12:33 PM Rating: Good
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Well, part of RDM's issues weren't RDM's alone. Some were indeed where other classes fell into place. Others were abilities from other jobs synergizing perhaps a bit too well like Stun and Utsu. Global delay affected everyone. The rest is pretty much SE letting the solos persist and becoming a characteristic some came to use to define the class where all that was really achieved was bragging rights for those that didn't exploit pathing AI or move speed hacks *coughRogcough*. I also found a certain element of hypocrisy when it came to some people claiming MMOs are games meant to be played with others, but the RDM status was a-ok for whatever reason.

Right now, XIV really doesn't have some of those traps. Cross-class skills are more reigned in, much to the dismay of some. You can't pull mobs across the entire map to find the most desired location due to leashing. People can act on most things, which generally cuts down on the whole "Just stand there and watch someone take forever..." aspect. Select harder things are also timed, which puts a greater pressure on churning out the DPS. Reraising isn't as simple as slapping on a piece of gear or atma. Open world (H)NMs aren't really a thing, either. Thank god.

I know one of the common fears was that if RDM was good at everything, nobody would play anything else, but that simply wasn't true. Stepping away from the aesthetic for a moment, you'd still have different weapon types, overall gear selection, skill caps, spell categories, and non-subbable spells/abilities to do the trick. And if they didn't, then I'd say it's a pretty good case for that particular job to receive some attention of its own like WHM got. Fears of the superman status could also have been alleviated by better associating costs and consequences to a focused duty. Stances were an avenue they tried for some jobs, and I'd even theorycrafted a couple there at one point in the past. Newer spells with significantly higher MP costs were also another option, as upkeep could've meant not being able to single-heal a party or nuking aggressively. Or some effects just being aura-like. There's a bit of a running gag that arose amongst the RDM community, though, in that ideas we proposed for the job always seemed to wind up in new ones SE added later on. Stuff like Diffusion/Accession for AoEing buffs, GEO getting self/target auras, DNC getting melee-related debuffs, and so on.

Of course, I had times where some people wanted to swear up and down that some things couldn't be done because the code was too old, couldn't be changed, PS2 limitations, or whatever. Yet when you go on to point out actual additions, adjustments, and overcoming things like recast limits or spell library caps, it was all just ignored to persist a "you're wrong and you're stupid!" mentality, but in far more colorful words, that really made me wish SE banned in-game accounts for forum behavior. Some loved to throw the, "The job you want is Blue Mage!" line when "The job want is White Mage, Scholar, or Black Mage!" could generally be slung back if you could actually gauge intent. BLU, however, clashed egregiously on the aesthetic front. First being that utilizing monster abilities really wasn't RDM. Second in that RDM had more of that "three musketeers" feel to it while XI's carried more the middle eastern vibe. Both could still exist in similar, but different ways, as I frequently tried to urge. Though, for some, I think shutting people up about RDM became the goal more than actually helping the job out.

Can't speak much for WoW classes, myself. I want to say Rift is more hybrid-friendly, but at the same time, it's also pretty vulnerable to its own cookie cutter traps for builds and being balanced more around 20-man raids. PvP is also its own can of worms, which probably made hybrids more favorable in Aion because it was simply so easy to cure up damage if you weren't overwhelmed by numbers or caught off guard mid-fight.
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