They look like young adults to me. Since when are young adults required to always wear shirts and ties?
By the way, have you SEEN Japanese advertisements that are actually aimed at teens?
While we're at it, show of hands of all the high school kids reading this thread! Gotta love it, a bunch of adults arguing that the game they're all playing (or, if not playing, at least mildly obsessed with) was made for a teenage audience.
And a P2P game, at that.
Edited, Mar 4th 2014 1:51pm by Thayos
I'm actually arguing that the game is playable (and played) by pretty much anyone.
[ I'm actually arguing that the game is playable (and played) by pretty much anyone.
There's still a difference between "Marketed towards x group" and "Used by y group". Yes, people under 30 play this game. I'm only 24, and in my (admittedly short) time with FFXIV, it's been one of the most enjoyable MMOs I've played. Or, you can look at the My Little Pony argument.
There's still a difference between "Marketed towards x group" and "Used by y group".
Exactly.
I'm not saying younger people can't enjoy the game. I'm saying that teenagers aren't SE's target audience. SE's golden goose is the 30-something crowd that grew up playing Final Fantasy games. Also, it's the 30-something crowd that tends to have the most disposable income available.
I never represented that XIV casuals played 5 hours a day. Are you even reading the posts? I'm starting to lose count of how many times I'm having to repeat myself...
Quote:
75% [of] gamers play longer than 1.9 hours per day on average
FilthMcNasty wrote:
It supports the gripe from players that there isn't enough content, especially when they aren't even playing as long as the 75ers.
Not playing as much as the 75ers. Playing less than the 75ers. The 75ers are only playing 14 hours a week. Since when is 14 == 35?
Strike one.
You also wrote:
Quote:
25% [of] gamers play longer than 4.9 hours per day on average
So tell me, how many players play less than 4.9 hours per day? Don't think about it too hard.
Quote:
Xoie wrote:
There also weren't such things as F2P MMOs in 2005 either so there's no doubt if you did the same study of WoW today, the time spent playing would be a lot lower, because most younger players with lots of time on their hands (because they aren't working a job, and therefore don't have much money, either) aren't paying for a WoW subscription at all when there are so many free options out there.
So many commas. Perhaps to try and mask the fact that you don't know what you're talking about. No F2P MMOs in 2005? Never heard of MUD or MOO? Not mainstream enough huh? How 'bout Runescape?
Strike two.
You don't read or comprehend the posts, but you still try to counter them with even less relevant information and flat out false comments.
Beanball. Take your base
You know I thought I should have posted that I only meant F2P MMOs that were 3D rendered before someone brought up MUDs (you know, once 2D side scrollers made the list), but I didn't think anyone would go text-based on me.
You certainly wouldn't see a WoW-like F2P MMO in 2005, and now in 2014, it's pretty much the norm. Happy now?
There's still a difference between "Marketed towards x group" and "Used by y group".
Exactly.
I'm not saying younger people can't enjoy the game. I'm saying that teenagers aren't SE's target audience. SE's golden goose is the 30-something crowd that grew up playing Final Fantasy games. Also, it's the 30-something crowd that tends to have the most disposable income available.
Yeah, but I was originally arguing against the idea that Square Enix only needs to produce enough content to satiate a 34-year-old woman who logs in for 2 hours maximum per week.
Even if you believe that the game is designed for people in their 30's or so (I don't think they would gauge the amount of content they need to produce by the age of their 'most important' audience), you have to at least admit that it's spilling over above/below that age range... both posters above you are in the 20-24 range which is the average age of the MMORPG player.
Because the Final Fantasy franchise continuously produces titles, people at your age or lower also may have grown up playing Final Fantasy games and are able to feel the same nostalgia as you do.
If the game had a Cash Shop, then they would probably see the 30-something-crowd as their "golden goose" - where they can really dig into your wallet - but I would imagine at a set subscription price they see everyone about the same in terms of who they need to please. Even little Timmy whose mom helped him set up his account with her credit card.
You know I thought I should have posted that I only meant F2P MMOs that were 3D rendered before someone brought up MUDs (you know, once 2D side scrollers made the list), but I didn't think anyone would go text-based on me.
You certainly wouldn't see a WoW-like F2P MMO in 2005, and now in 2014, it's pretty much the norm. Happy now?
Flyff was a F2P 3D WASD-movement and quest-based MMORPG in 2005, actually. I played it, once.
If you look into the game, it actually is 'WoW-like' in terms of the quest system, hotkeys, combat, etc. It's definitely no World of Warcraft in terms of quality, but it was there. They made money by selling flying mounts and vanity items. To say you "certainly wouldn't see a WoW-like F2P MMORPG in 2005" is overkill.
Korean MMORPG development was pretty well on its way by 2005 with Ragnarok Online having come out in 2002 and Lineage II coming out in 2004 (among other things) and the F2P model started getting popular around that time period.
you have to at least admit that it's spilling over above/below that age range... both posters above you are in the 20-24 range which is the average age of the MMORPG player.
Of course I admit that. I don't see anyone in disagreement with you on this.
As for the cash shop thing... that seems like a bunch of L-O-L to me.
As for the cash shop thing... that seems like a bunch of L-O-L to me.
Yeah, cash shops, while viable, aren't exactly "good" unless well-maintained. Ever heard of Whale Hunting in MMOs? What it means is the company aims at getting quick, large influxes of cash by selling overpriced, "limited edition" mounts to players who have the income, but who may also leave at the drop of a hat. So, more impulsive, younger people. It can end up pushing static players away, feeling like they aren't wanted by the devs. They see the "Ohhh, look, new shiny! ONLY $25! ONLY 500 MADE! BUY NOW!" updates, and less about "Oh, and this is in the upcoming patch!"
Just want you all to know, I'm absolutely loving this thread.
It must be nice to be able to say what you want and never get sucked into the karmic black hole this has turned out to be.
I'm closing myself off from this discussion in helpless ambivalence. Everyone else wins 3 internets.
Edited, Mar 4th 2014 6:13pm by Xoie
I've been replying to both of you (if you're referring to me). I was enjoying the discussion also. You were factually wrong about there being no F2P MMORPG scene in 2005 so I corrected you. It's just that unlike Thayos, you're objectively wrong and not really arguing for an opinion.
Yes, but because you are subbed with the game, those other two factors are rendered irrelevant from a business standpoint. If you don't have the decisiveness to remove your subscription, why sould a business company, who's ultimate goal is to gain capital, respect the standards you'll claim, but not defend?
Because they need to keep you. Your current subscription is not a promise of future subscriptions.
I may be underwhelmed by recent updates, but be having enough fun with a mix of older content and the less-interesting newer content to keep playing for the moment. As I get bored of older content, newer content gets valued more heavily.
If the newer content isn't enough to keep me interested (which is most particularly a problem if there's been consistent poor updates), then I'm going to leave.
MMOs can typically survive one bad patch. Trials of the Crusader in WoW's Wrath expansion, for instance, was terrible. But people stuck around through it, waiting for the next one.
Had that been a trend, though, they wouldn't have.
But it would have been VERY wrong to suggest that players were satisfied with TotC, by a long shot. Blizz needed to deliver on the next patch to keep their players. Fortunately, they did. But if we got another TotC, they would have lost a lot of business.
____________________________
IDrownFish wrote:
Anyways, you all are horrible, @#%^ed up people
lolgaxe wrote:
Never underestimate the healing power of a massive dong.
Just joking. But seriously, you're gonna have to remind me about the references. When you say "references", I think of Cloud's big dumb sword description coming up when you clicked on the wall of one of the weapon shops in Final Fantasy IX.
The reuse of names like Materia & Limit Break, the judge & Magitek designs... everyone gets these references. Not just 30-somethings.
Besides, you do realize that the older Final Fantasy titles get re-released basically every year on some device, right?
Final Fantasy VII and VIII both got Steam PC re-releases in 2013 and tons of younger kids got to enjoy them. VII even went on sale on Steam for really cheap when kids had their Christmas money. IX will probably be out on Steam soon. IV through VI are available on PSN (I think they go on sale there occasionally). Most are available on newer handheld gaming devices and phones.
If there are references that people are missing they would probably be references to Final Fantasy X (and I can't think of any references to Final Fantasy X)... and even if there was, that's also getting an HD re-release on the PS3 in around 2 weeks. They should really add some Final Fantasy X clothes and hairstyles, or Lightning will get accused of special treatment.
I need to remind you of Crystal Tower?
Tons of young people have played Final Fantasy III. The entire game and its Crystal Tower was even remade in 3D. It's available right now for iPhones and iPads. You can play the 3D version on your Nintendo DS or 3DS. You can buy the original Famicom version digitally through Nintendo. How would a Final Fantasy III reference be aimed at people in their mid-30's if the game only came to North America 7 or 8 years ago?
The Crystal Tower is the most obvious reference there is. Mostly I'm just baffled how you needed to be reminded of it of all things.
Nothing stops a 16-year-old from playing FFI-VI after FFXIII. They're simply drastically old games that don't appeal to any sort of mass market in this day and age. That sort of an userbase is negligible. The majority of people who understand these references played the original games back then. In addition you have the tiny minority that went back and replayed the old games years after their release - a significantly smaller number.
Everything you see in this game is something you don't see in a single player FF/KH title - which is aimed at teens.
You are crazy if you think FFVII and its blocky graphics appeal to most of the kids used to PS3-level visuals.
Tons of young people have played Final Fantasy III. The entire game and its Crystal Tower was even remade in 3D. It's available right now for iPhones and iPads.
The target audience for the game's relaunch on mobile devices was also the 30-something age group.
Demographic groups most likely to own tablets include:
- Those living in households earning at least $75,000 per year (56%), compared with lower income brackets - Adults ages 35-44 (49%), compared with younger and older adults - College graduates (49%), compared with adults with lower levels of education
MMOs can typically survive one bad patch. Trials of the Crusader in WoW's Wrath expansion, for instance, was terrible. But people stuck around through it, waiting for the next one.
Had that been a trend, though, they wouldn't have.
I thoroughly enjoyed that raid. Facepalming when people didn't move out of the way of frosthowl. The faction champions which was arguably one of the best encounters I've ever done. Salt and pepper. I think the only thing I didn't like about it was the fact that people would troll you with water walking as you fell through the colosseum floor. Oh wait, that was me doing that
____________________________
Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream
HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free
cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
MMOs can typically survive one bad patch. Trials of the Crusader in WoW's Wrath expansion, for instance, was terrible. But people stuck around through it, waiting for the next one.
Had that been a trend, though, they wouldn't have.
I thoroughly enjoyed that raid. Facepalming when people didn't move out of the way of frosthowl. The faction champions which was arguably one of the best encounters I've ever done. Salt and pepper. I think the only thing I didn't like about it was the fact that people would troll you with water walking as you fell through the colosseum floor. Oh wait, that was me doing that
I wish my webcam was recording, so I could just post the face I made at the words "I thoroughly enjoyed that raid."
I can honestly say you are the first person I've EVER seen say they enjoyed that raid, let alone thoroughly. That content patch was a hot freaking mess, from the random jousting stuff up. And it was so little raiding content for the amount of time it had to last. I was relatively casual, so the tournament SHOULD have been the big appeal for me, but the jousting was such hell that... no. Just no.
____________________________
IDrownFish wrote:
Anyways, you all are horrible, @#%^ed up people
lolgaxe wrote:
Never underestimate the healing power of a massive dong.
Maybe I just have a hard on for that encounter. I'm a fan of PvP when it's well implemented because it's an endless supply of content on it's own. The teams might be the same, but the battles were always reactive. It was refreshing to run an encounter that was different every time. I also spent a lot of this period of the game playing PvP so it didn't bother me that they kept pushing the content back.
For the same reason, XIV would probably be a lot better off if the PvP was something you could take a little more seriously.
____________________________
Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream
HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free
cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
You are crazy if you think FFVII and its blocky graphics appeal to most of the kids used to PS3-level visuals.
You would be surprised. It's pretty easy for people to get used to the graphics and get absorbed into an old game, even if they maybe started gaming during the PS2 or PS3 era.
If anything things like long loading screens are much more annoying than blocky graphics.
If anything things like long loading screens are much more annoying than blocky graphics.
Oh I get it. ARR has loading screens. So now most young people are more likely to enjoy FFVII than FFXIV?
How delightfully trollish of you.
Makes sense though, since the game is aimed at the 30-somethings.
I appreciate your comment Thayos, Minecraft did something other games have been unable to do up until now. Whether that is a more appealing aspect of the game than the graphics I won't debate... In my opinion it is though.
Part of that problem is the community. Many don't want any adversity. They want things to come easy, they always want to win on the first try. Everytime Pharos comes up in the roulette, people quit as soon as the dungeon loads.
Sadly, this is what happens with roulette systems and is a common trend in MMOs. Does anyone happen to remember a certain heroic called the Oculus? ^_^
People will always want the easy route and abandon anything that presents a challenge if the reward isn't justifiable. I have a feeling that 14's team could do with a look at their 'risk' vs reward system in the game. It's a lot like Guildhests are now even with roulette. How gil distribution was in dungeons prior to the patch. It's also why I queued into a Totorak in progress 3 times today on Hito Yu's MRD. All three teams were three manning it because they had someone who needed it for the story. I think they probably would've taken the way out that the tank did if it were not for this.
Even to me, running Totorak for the 105th time is not appealing at all given the minor reward at the end and how boring the dungeon is to begin with.
FilthMcNasty wrote:
I thoroughly enjoyed that raid. Facepalming when people didn't move out of the way of frosthowl. The faction champions which was arguably one of the best encounters I've ever done. Salt and pepper. I think the only thing I didn't like about it was the fact that people would troll you with water walking as you fell through the colosseum floor. Oh wait, that was me doing that
I did enjoy TotC immensely, as well. I always would featherfall everyone as well because of people like you, you jerk. :P
I wasn't aware that TotC received such negative press. I played a little after the next content patch had been released so perhaps this is why. I do know quite a few who had bad experiences with heroic TotC and refused to do it even when Pandaria was released. lol
Xoie wrote:
Thayos wrote:
Just want you all to know, I'm absolutely loving this thread.
It must be nice to be able to say what you want and never get sucked into the karmic black hole this has turned out to be.
I'm closing myself off from this discussion in helpless ambivalence. Everyone else wins 3 internets.
Edited, Mar 4th 2014 6:13pm by Xoie
I wish you wouldn't. Your experiences (and opinion) that you've shared in this thread have given me some new insight on how I look at the issue. I don't necessarily agree with all of your opinions but feel this would just become a circle jerk if we had this discussion with people from only one side of the fence.
I've actually taken some advice from people in this thread. I didn't play long at all tonight (maybe an hour) before logging off. I went to play Borderlands 2. Had never tried Tina's expansion. After beating the main story tonight, I was very 'happy' when I logged off because of unicorns shooting guns out of their butts instead of the usual indifferent feeling I get when I do something in 14 now days.
As for the debate about whose the target audience here in terms of age...I have never really felt that FF games have had a target audience as of late in terms of age. I would still be interested in 14 if I were my 16 year old self again because I just generally like the FF franchise. Here I am, 10 years later and still interested in the FF franchise (as far as the MMO aspect is concerned). I could talk about how the offline games have driven me away but then that would be a bit biased. I feel that their offline counterparts are still trying to appeal to the 15-25 age bracket like they've always done.
It's really interesting that this discussion should come up. My boyfriend is replaying FF13 right now. Actually, he beat the final boss tonight and showed it to me. I always tease him about playing Final Corridor 13 and laugh. He probably laughs the same when I tell him I have to go raid on my catgirl with big boobs for a few hours as well. :P
He's only a year older than I am and we're both in the late 20s.
This is just my experience but it might point to the fact that the target audience is very broad in terms of the FF franchise as of late. I don't feel like 14 has any particular one in mind. When Yoshida told us he was a hardcore MMO gamer, I thought for sure we wouldn't be stuck in casualville. However, that is exactly where we are. I think his will to gain money for his company that lost a lot of it on 1.0 is stronger than his will to appease a minority of players. Or, rather, I should say he is pressured into this position because so much is/was at stake.
This is why I keep repeating: 2.2 will tell us a lot. He has had plenty of time to think about where he wants the game to head. We are promised extremely hard turns 6-9. This will be the first time that there is an actual STRONG gate in this game when it comes to hardcore content.
You all may think Titan HM was the original gate and I might have agreed back then...but that isn't the case now. I can tell you that the people who pass turn 5 even post 2.2 will be significantly less than wwho can pass Titan HM. This means that turn 6-9 should contain EXTREMELY challenging content given that this is content designed for the hardcore player. If I see it cleared within a week of release by many endgame FCs (not just one), I will know it is similar to the extremes and take action accordingly. :\
You all may think Titan HM was the original gate and I might have agreed back then...but that isn't the case now. I can tell you that the people who pass turn 5 even post 2.2 will be significantly less than wwho can pass Titan HM. This means that turn 6-9 should contain EXTREMELY challenging content given that this is content designed for the hardcore player. If I see it cleared within a week of release by many endgame FCs (not just one), I will know it is similar to the extremes and take action accordingly. :\
Not that I can guarantee that SE will provide more of a challenge, but the extremes were already plenty easy by the time they came out since players were geared accordingly with ilvl90 through the Coil. On the other hand back when Coil came out people were trying to clear it with ilvl70 equipment. Then it makes sense that t1-5 in September would be harder than the extremes in December.
If t6-9 are tuned for ilvl100+ (which is almost guaranteed at this point) then the challenge would be similar to that of t1-5 back in September (in other words, harder than the extremes).
I walked some FC members through Crystal Tower for the first time last night. Things actually went pretty good up until Behemoth.
One is an ultra-casual who only plays for 2-3 hours every couple of days. She'd unlocked CT a month ago but never got around to it. Another is a much more active player who has three jobs at 50, but had never gotten around to unlocking CT until over the weekend.
There are lots of reasons people don't do content as soon as it's released, like time constraints or just having a different focus. Me, I'm only missing the WHM body from CT and that's a pure vanity piece at this point, but I actually enjoy the raid, unlike most people. It's controlled chaos (occasionally just plain chaos.) I love it. It feels like Dynamis back in XI.
