Seems there are more hardcore players that only focus on some content, with that content being the min/max progression content. Casual gamers seem to get a lot more from content that's not about min/maxing, such as seasonal events, housing, etc.
The people who are complaining are from both camps. No one is talking about what is on the plate here but you Thayos. I'm only talking appetite.
____________________________
Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream
HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free
cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
The people who are complaining are from both camps. No one is talking about what is on the plate here but you Thayos. I'm only talking appetite.
And only you are saying that it makes sense to be hungry regardless of how much food is sitting untouched in front of you.
No. I'm saying that when you know people are hungry, you should probably cook a lot of food. If the trend is for MMO players to spend an average of 2 hours a day playing, you should probably give them something to do in that time. So simple, yet here I am spelling it out for the third time
____________________________
Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream
HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free
cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
OK, and I'll spell out my reply again, in hopes you can see what I'm talking about.
Most ARR players are still actively playing the game. This means most of the players are totally satisfied with the amount of food that's been cooked up.
As for those who aren't satisfied... you're claiming they're all starving, and I'm saying that's not the case.
Some of these players are only interested in endgame/progression content (which I'll assign the name "fried chicken," for the sake of your hunger theme). These players have eaten all the fried chicken at their place settings... but that doesn't mean there isn't other food they could be eating. Their plates also have rice, vegetables, perhaps a slice of pizza, maybe some dessert. But all they want is fried chicken, so now they've left the table until more fried chicken is ready.
Sorry, but that's not an issue of hunger.
Those gamers have two options: They can find another restaurant that happens to have a greater supply of fried chicken, or they can pick at the other food on their plate until more fried chicken is ready (end of March).
That said, I'm sure there are some gamers who have literally devoured ALL of the food on their plate, and maybe they're tired of helping other people clear their plates, too... but, honestly, those guys are victims of their own skill and dedication. They'll be hungry no matter which restaurant they're at.
This food thing is going way over my head. Where did you get the idea that "most people are still actively logging in and playing every day"? Again, this might just be an issue with my server, but a lot of my buddy list simply stopped logging in completely at some point or another, and many of the other ones either log in to AFK/idle. Actually, I don't know anyone who is actively playing EVERY day anymore. I don't know what I would do on ARR every day at this point.
Well I can look at my FC member list and see the last time people logged in. Of the 20 or so active members we've had since launch, a dozen of us are still logging in daily... three people went to a larger FC and are still active daily... and of the other five, three have been away for a week (communicated outside the game though, and they're not quitting, just on a temporary break) and two for longer (not sure about one of them, but am fairly certain one is just on a break, too).
So, of the people I know best in the game, 75 percent are still going strong, at least 90 percent will be playing at patch 2.2, and a few of the least-active people still pop in for awhile every week or two.
If you really want to enjoy the game, you should join a better FC! They're very easy to find on my server... lots of shouts in all the crowded areas (market board areas, Quarrymill, Revenant's Toll, etc).
Those gamers have two options: They can find another restaurant that happens to have a greater supply of fried chicken, or they can pick at the other food on their plate until more fried chicken is ready (end of March).
That said, I'm sure there are some gamers who have literally devoured ALL of the food on their plate, and maybe they're tired of helping other people clear their plates, too... but, honestly, those guys are victims of their own skill and dedication. They'll be hungry no matter which restaurant they're at.
Point still stands. Hardcore players aren't even worth discussing. Not because they'll never be satisfied, but because SE is struggling to satisfy the casuals. Yoshi himself said that XIV was meant to be "extremely casual". Should we take that to mean that there's nothing to do after playing 10 hours into the week? He also said that XIV was going to have more content than it's competition. Was he just talking it up or does he really intend to bring it? Maybe 10 hours is all it takes to meet the "extremely casual" requirement?
Edited, Mar 4th 2014 12:53am by FilthMcNasty
____________________________
Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream
HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free
cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
My point stands as well. The majority of casuals are satisfied and actively playing, and the game has already had big content updates with more coming within the month.
When I find out what the formula is for whatever they brainwash people with...
____________________________
Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream
HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free
cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
Thayos, what content would you have me focused on if I appear to be bored? :P
About 2 months ago, someone told me to try crafting after I claimed I had nothing to do. So I took their advice and tried it. It was fun. It was really fun. Within a couple of weeks, I got almost every craft to 50, dumped a huge portion of my income into crafting gear, and melded everything perfectly. Then, housing prices were announced and the economy went poof. So did my interest in crafting, which is why ARM is still sitting there not at level cap.
Like I linked in the post, the guy who complained about content locusts (I guess it was a complaint?) would often offer up suggestions for players when they asked him what they could do if they were bored.
I'd be interested in your list. I'm sure you will not tell me to go sort my inventory, level my chocobo, or go gather something. :) Like he found out, not everyone finds enjoyment in all these tasks. While you think there is a lot of content out there, you neglect the fact that it isn't necessarily appealing content with a reward or motivation attached to it. I believe Nash echoed these sentiments earlier on:
Nashred wrote:
The real question is it good content? Adding content to add content is one thing but is it good content and good enough to keep people playing?
Got to keep people playing or they will leave for the next thing and once they leave it is harder to get them back. This is not the only game out there.
What is good content? Well, that's defined by the player. Many of us like our DoW and DoM jobs but do not feel that there is enough content to really enjoy them to the full extent: especially at max level.
Heck, you know how I get enjoyment out of them now days? I queue for CT or DF primals. I don't need these things but they are the only thing, outside of coil, that really pushes me to my limits. I want to experience this a lot. Currently, I only get that experience once or twice a week and that's only because of two characters!
I was thinking about my hatred for dungeons in this game. Usually, I really enjoy grinding through dungeons. I did that almost exclusively when I went back to WoW for leveling: rarely stepping foot outside the cities. Then it dawned on me: dungeons are not appealing in this game because they are so god damn boring. There is no threat at all: even in the hardmode dungeons. The closest thing would be Pharos and even that is mind numbingly boring after the 5th time through.
So there sits my WAR/MRD on two characters collecting dust. Same with the MNK on Hitome (which I really, really enjoy). It's not only the feeling of lack of content but also the fact that ways I used to enjoy myself becoming less viable (like FATE grinding).
It's not really that I don't want to find facets of the game that interest me. I certainly didn't think crafting would interest me but I took up someone's suggestion and it did. If you have something that you think would be interesting, I'm all ears.
BTW, was a very funny (to me) conversation today in LS chat during raid:
http://i.imgur.com/Y7K46HM.png
TY and CA are, what I would consider, casual players. TY used to play 11, actually. He no longer has the time to play games in a hardcore manner like he did with 11 so his time is often limited. However, he still gets things done. CA is more casual than TY and belongs to a family-size FC that is much like yours, Thayos, from your description.
I believe you're aware of all the same content that I'm aware of. For various reasons, though, some people aren't satisfied while others are. Could be a matter of pace (some people played more right after launch, perhaps burning out), or could simply be a matter of taste (some people find the content fun, while others do not). Some people enjoy raising different jobs and crafts, and not just by following the path of least resistance.
That really sucks that you and others are bored. I can't give you a magic answer though, because we are most likely different people with very different gaming personalities. There's a reason why different people tend to experience the same games in different ways.
All I know is there are still many, many people who are actively playing the game, and most people I know in the game are totally fine with the amount of content as version 2.2 nears.
Just to give you a glimpse of my gaming experience though, here's what I did tonight (actually got in several hours tonight):
- Logged in - Chatted with my FC leader for awhile - Mined a treasure map - Managed sale items on my retainer - Finished level 50 bard quest - Ran Ultima HM a couple times with FC members (was actually just my second time doing this fight) - Did crafting leves - Ran Hauke HM with FC members - Did high-level roulette (got Pharos Sirius, ran it, won it) - Did more crafting leves (got armorer to 50, go me) - Logged out
Had a great time!
Quote:
Heck, you know how I get enjoyment out of them now days? I queue for CT or DF primals. I don't need these things but they are the only thing, outside of coil, that really pushes me to my limits. I want to experience this a lot. Currently, I only get that experience once or twice a week and that's only because of two characters!
I think this is totally understandable, no matter how much someone (like myself) may be enjoying the game. I'm excited to see how ARR's endgame evolves over time.
There is no threat at all: even in the hardmode dungeons. The closest thing would be Pharos and even that is mind numbingly boring after the 5th time through.
So there sits my WAR/MRD on two characters collecting dust. Same with the MNK on Hitome (which I really, really enjoy). It's not only the feeling of lack of content but also the fact that ways I used to enjoy myself becoming less viable (like FATE grinding).
Edited, Mar 4th 2014 2:55am by HitomeOfBismarck
Part of that problem is the community. Many don't want any adversity. They want things to come easy, they always want to win on the first try. Everytime Pharos comes up in the roulette, people quit as soon as the dungeon loads.
There is no threat at all: even in the hardmode dungeons. The closest thing would be Pharos and even that is mind numbingly boring after the 5th time through.
So there sits my WAR/MRD on two characters collecting dust. Same with the MNK on Hitome (which I really, really enjoy). It's not only the feeling of lack of content but also the fact that ways I used to enjoy myself becoming less viable (like FATE grinding).
Edited, Mar 4th 2014 2:55am by HitomeOfBismarck
Part of that problem is the community. Many don't want any adversity. They want things to come easy, they always want to win on the first try. Everytime Pharos comes up in the roulette, people quit as soon as the dungeon loads.
People don't enjoy the content and only do it because it helps them to become a stronger player (numbers wise).
Personally I have some trouble figuring out what is so enjoyable about the mere premise of becoming a stronger player if the content is such a bore that unless you clear it on the first try you ragequit. The battle itself is the gameplay part, obtaining a piece of loot is the result of the gameplay.
If you don't enjoy the actual process of obtaining that piece of loot, I really don't know what you are doing playing this game. (= "you" as in a player). The only answer I can come up with is that these people only consider a small part of the content "worth their while" and everything else is "useless". Once again I have to question why they play the game because if that's the case most of the content in this game is "useless". That doesn't sound like a game I would continue playing.
One thing I have noticed about the endgame is how incredibly hostile part of the community is in regards to failure. Skilled players criticize new players on not performing as well as they should (which is good). Usually they are right, but they are rude about how they express their criticism (this is unnecessary). The other option is the passive-aggressive one, with them leaving the group without saying a word. Either way, I find it hard to understand these people.
Why are they so eager to be rude to new players (especially from their own server)? There is a massive difference between accepting fair, neutral criticism and becoming a better player and not listening at all while getting the group wiped time and time again.
The people who are complaining are from both camps. No one is talking about what is on the plate here but you Thayos. I'm only talking appetite.
And only you are saying that it makes sense to be hungry regardless of how much food is sitting untouched in front of you.
No. I'm saying that when you know people are hungry, you should probably cook a lot of food. If the trend is for MMO players to spend an average of 2 hours a day playing, you should probably give them something to do in that time. So simple, yet here I am spelling it out for the third time
Your quoted article only observed just over 34 thousand WoW players over the course of 22 months starting in 2005. What's more, players who joined before or after that time weren't counted, players who quit during that time were stricken from the study, even if they rejoined. They basically inadvertently skewed their study towards people playing WoW hardcore because those playing casually couldn't be tracked as well or were eliminated from the study given the available in-game tools which is the only way the authors observed anyone (they didn't even account for shared accounts, RMT, botting, idling, etc. because none of the actual players were personally studied).
Crafting definitely took a dip after housing was announced, but I've made a million and a half gil since then, almost entirely via crafting.
I'm chasing after the crazy max achievements on Weaver. 10,000 HQ items at 5-10K each on the market wards will take a long time, but it will make me very rich.
The people who are complaining are from both camps. No one is talking about what is on the plate here but you Thayos. I'm only talking appetite.
And only you are saying that it makes sense to be hungry regardless of how much food is sitting untouched in front of you.
No. I'm saying that when you know people are hungry, you should probably cook a lot of food. If the trend is for MMO players to spend an average of 2 hours a day playing, you should probably give them something to do in that time. So simple, yet here I am spelling it out for the third time
Your quoted article only observed just over 34 thousand WoW players over the course of 22 months starting in 2005. What's more, players who joined before or after that time weren't counted, players who quit during that time were stricken from the study, even if they rejoined. They basically inadvertently skewed their study towards people playing WoW hardcore because those playing casually couldn't be tracked as well or were eliminated from the study given the available in-game tools which is the only way the authors observed anyone (they didn't even account for shared accounts, RMT, botting, idling, etc. because none of the actual players were personally studied).
Your link is even more irrelevant than his. It seems all-encompassing and most of the interviewed gamers owned a Wii, which means they could be soccer moms doing stretches on Wii Fit or singing karaoke for all we know - or playing a Facebook game after work. It really includes zero information actually. His link was actually about MMORPG habits, subscriptions, etc. By the way, most MMORPG gamers are between 18-30 as of 2013. There are several studies for you to look up.
Also the average age for gamers (all-encompassing) in the US is 30 as of 2013. The average age of MMORPG players is still in the mid 20s.
The study Filth quoted is interesting, but I didn't realize it was from 2005. Hard to say how relevant those numbers are nowadays.At least for FF online players, SE found that most of us have significantly less time to play games nowadays than we did during the heyday of FFXI (2005-ish).
If the average time played by subscription-paying FF gamers back then was more than 2 hours, then now it's almost certainly less than that now.
One thing I've found is that while I may be logged in for 3-4 hours (sometimes 4-5) during the week, the amount of active engagement that I have with the game is considerably lower, mostly because I dither around the kitchen and the house.
I also am not counting the 45 minutes I'm queued up for a dungeon as a BLM right now since I'm working on a cross stitch instead.
It's not that I'm bored with the game, it's that I just moved house. And just last night went to hook up Internet -- since the contractors had finished the floors in that area and I could actually walk to the connector -- and discovered that the idiot/malicious electrician who put the power outlet in the network closet didn't cover the DSL outlet and packed it tightly with moist crud.
So people who seem to have stopped logging on can have all sorts of reasons for doing so.
The argument has an invalid approach to begin with.
We're trying to approach this whole debate from the perspective of the consumer, so really it's already skewed with a level of personal bias based off of what we, as individuals, enjoy. Which, from the round-table discussion that seems to continue to spin round and round, we've already well established is varied.
This may seem cold and unsympathetic, but as the devil's advocate here what a company of a P2P isn't about how many people are satisfied. It isn't even really about how many people are playing regularly, though both these are contributors to their ultimate goal: Keeping players subscribed.
Someone who's subscribed and complaining isn't going to have nearly enough weight against someone who's silent and leaving. Sure, SE is going to take recommendations into consideration, but they're not going to change intended course unless their baseline stems to take a hit.
And that is not a matter of 'ignoring their base' so much as trying to sift out the white noise that is the habitual complainers.
I'm all in support of more Hardcore Content, but I'm also in support for more casual content, as well, and SE's approach is to dress them all gradually. That might not work to the satisfaction of all people but so long as they're seeing their subscription numbers stable or growing, they're not going to change their approach.
That's really what the base topic of this thread was before it got derailed: to SE, things are going exceedingly well - there's no reason to shift gears.
Your quoted article only observed just over 34 thousand WoW players over the course of 22 months starting in 2005. What's more, players who joined before or after that time weren't counted, players who quit during that time were stricken from the study, even if they rejoined. They basically inadvertently skewed their study towards people playing WoW hardcore because those playing casually couldn't be tracked as well or were eliminated from the study given the available in-game tools which is the only way the authors observed anyone (they didn't even account for shared accounts, RMT, botting, idling, etc. because none of the actual players were personally studied).
If you're participating in PvE events then you're locked into larger sessions. Ask most anyone who played WoW and they'll tell you that if they were raiding, they set aside 2-3 days for progression and sessions usually lasted upward of 3 hours at a time. I ran an endgame LS in FFXI. If you wanted to camp an HNM then you were locked in for at least 3 hours at a time because that's how long spawn windows lasted. Dynamis was no different.
The WoW study didn't count people who left or rejoined because they were studying the habits of active players. The period was long enough to account for things like holidays and vacations where players wouldn't be as active, but it doesn't make sense to try and track the login habits of people who are on-again off-again.
The OP quoted a report that states there were 1.5 million registered accounts. SE reactivated all accounts from 1.0 for their 2 week trial during the period the figures were recorded. Were those counted even if the players didn't return and log into the game? Absolutely. What about players who had the PC version and also purchased PS3 version? Pretty sure they get counted twice. What about people who upgraded from SE to CE? They have to physically register the CE version as another service account. Double ding?
A study is just a study. Like I said in the post I used it in, it doesn't really prove anything. All it does is display data for the purpose of showing habits. The study you quoted was conducted in the UK and only has a sample size of 2000. They're not all MMO players either which I would think is important. While we might not have as much time to spend the further we go on it years, there are still new players entering the market who do.
____________________________
Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream
HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free
cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
That's really what the base topic of this thread was before it got derailed: to SE, things are going exceedingly well - there's no reason to shift gears.
Thanks for bringing the discussion back into focus. Ultimately, this is definitely the one thing that matters most.
A study is just a study. Like I said in the post I used it in, it doesn't really prove anything. All it does is display data for the purpose of showing habits. The study you quoted was conducted in the UK and only has a sample size of 2000. They're not all MMO players either which I would think is important. While we might not have as much time to spend the further we go on it years, there are still new players entering the market who do.
What I'm objecting to is that you've taken that information to mean something other than what it did. A casual FFXIV player isn't playing an average of 5 hours a day since launch day.
The habits that study you mentioned naturally filtered out people who didn't play as much or contiguously, which is very common in casual circles, but it also just plainly didn't observe people at all. Just login sessions. You'd have no idea who was controlling those sessions, or if anyone was at the controls at all. Maybe there was a husband-wife team who controlled the same character, or someone was just botting, in which case it wasn't the habits of just one person.
There also weren't such things as F2P MMOs in 2005 either so there's no doubt if you did the same study of WoW today, the time spent playing would be a lot lower, because most younger players with lots of time on their hands (because they aren't working a job, and therefore don't have much money, either) aren't paying for a WoW subscription at all when there are so many free options out there.
But guess what else wasn't around in 2005. iPhones! Now that's the rising star of the gaming industry chalk full of F2P options for your little penniless munchkins.
That article I posted about the average 35 year old gamer and average 2.5 hours a week is among people who pay to play games. When you count pure F2P gamers, however, it dips to 30 and the average play times go up.
But FFXIV is a pay-to-play game, for an older crowd, who has a regular income, and not as much time to play as they used to.
It's not to say we don't need more hardcore options. We absolutely do, because they exist, they form the backbone of the FFXIV community, and they shouldn't be left out there bored with nothing to strive for. I don't think the problem is so endemic that casual players are hitting the wall themselves. As long as those patches keep coming, I think it will be fine.
There also weren't such things as F2P MMOs in 2005 either
Yes there were. Maple Story made tons of money in the US for Nexon in 2005. The were other F2P MMORPG options by then as well.
Xoie wrote:
But FFXIV is a pay-to-play game, for an older crowd, who has a regular income, and not as much time to play as they used to.
Says who?
People who don't play much probably feel most satisfied right now because they haven't completed the content yet. That doesn't mean the game was made specifically "for" an older crowd with less time on their hands.
