Does anyone on here actually prefer FFXI to XIV?Follow

The population moved away from SATA because the anatomy of a party changed with ToAU. It went from having a real tank that had to keep hate to just having a first voke basically. It had nothing to do with it being inefficient because it was actually the only way (most) NINs and (more than should've been) PLDs could keep hate. A tank not holding hate was much less efficient to mage's MP than having to cure someone besides the tank for a few seconds. Any job could first voke, everyone just needed to be quick about the positioning and skillchain. 5 seconds would pretty much just be a Cure III, or even just a Regen or 2 over the course of the fight. The longer it takes the more of an MP sponge the first voke became.

Protip: Dual-Wield did not force you to equip one-handed weapons.

/MNK gave you..... Boost. lol. Ooo. As a sub, and only using it once, it did.... incredibly little for you. Meanwhile, /nin, Utsusemi was just ridiculously good, and the very small Str/Vit boost from choosing /mnk over /nin didn't mean much of anything. Now, granted, if you did not have /nin, then /mnk was "better than nothing I suppose" when you went out as a Warrior.

Then they eventually added Hasso, and... WAR/SAM all the way. Well, ok, WAR/DNC too is awesome.

Edited, Aug 14th 2014 7:25am by Lyrailis

Not in reference to the timers, but you clearly have not experienced this (or your parties sucked) if you had to "cure bomb all the way". Again with your limited scope, there are many ways to gain hate. If your party is unable to get a mob off a SATA partner within a few seconds, then either your party sucked or you have the greatest THF known to man. Based off your previous statements, I can only assume that you're just making stuff up.

Edited, Aug 14th 2014 1:53pm by Almalieque

Uh, wtf?

Who said anything about "75s not invite Lv30s to auto-whiff a boss"? I don't know where the f--- you're getting this stuff, seriously. I said about how Lv30s/40s/50s could easily auto-attack the Promyvion bosses, YOU were the one who said "b-b-b-but the Lv30s couldn't do the later stuff!"

I didn't say Later Stuff. I said PROMYVIONS. You somehow took that into meaning that just because you did a PUG with someone on PROMYVIONS that you HAD to take them FURTHER which you didn't. Oi. At this point, I'm near reporting you for trolling. You're twisting around everything I say in ways I never meant whatsoever and you d*mn well know what I meant. So why don't we cut the childish bullsh*t, mmmm? I know why: you're wrong and you refuse to admit it. You resort to tactics like those because that's the only way you can "win" the argument.



I never said you needed "two tanks", I said you needed "someone who could hold the mob for a short while while the real tank gets set up to do SATA". I said you COULD SATA the other way (just dumping the hate on some random melee) but it was LESS THAN OPTIMAL.

Dear God, I don't know what the h*ll your problem is. Oh wait, I do. It is called Trolling.



That, or YOU and/or whatever THFs you invited to your groups absolutely sucked a$$. SATA+Viper Bite+Distortion was incredibly hard to peel off of someone else. You're talking about nearly half of an IT mob's health gone in a split second. That's a LOT of hate. More hate than a Provoke, I know this from experience.

So maybe your THFs sucked (or if you were playing the THF yourself, you sucked) if your SATA+WS+Distortion didn't keep the mob on the person receiving the SATA Hate the rest of the battle. Or were you even doing SATA+WS+Distortion at all?

Edited, Aug 14th 2014 12:16pm by Lyrailis

Edited, Aug 14th 2014 12:17pm by Lyrailis

You do realize by "later stuff", I mean the CoP story? You act like people didn't have statics. If you find 5 people on the same mission as you, you did as much as you could together. If you can't pass Promyvions, then you can't do Sea. If a large part of the population is already 75 (or even 50+), they are not going to invite a level 30 to do Promyvion, because the intent is to do much of the story at once. That's how it works. So, a starting player will have a much harder time getting a party. Hence why SE capped the missions. So regardless if you were 75 or 50, you were equal for the mission. The mistake was not implementing level sync.


FFXIV system clearly addresses this with roulette and level sync, so don't pretend that method isn't effective.

You argued that it was dumb to cap the battles and I argued that it wasn't, because it was a forcing mechanism to allow everyone of all levels to participate. No twisting of words.

You can't create this fantasy world where everyone is between the levels of 30-50 wanting to do CoP.

Your First reference was the following: Lyrailis wrote Another good example of group synergy (and how it caused pain in some peoples' in-game lives): THF. You almost never invited a 30+ THF into the group unless you had two people with Provoke, because the whole THF thing revolved around a temporary tank provoking the mob first, then the THF doing SATA onto the real tank

That's very clear. You said that "you" would almost never invite a 30+ THF unless you had two people with provoke. Those are your words, not mine. I argued to say that it is completely stupid not to invite a THF for that reason.



Let's think about this. If your THF SATA+Viper Bite+ Distortion took over half of an IT mob's health and it was hard to peel off hate, when would be the most appropriate time to do it? At pull when you still have half of the mob's HP to deal with or closer to the middle of the battle when the mob would be close to death or possibly die?

I'll give you a clue, it's the same with the doing BLM Freeze MB on Distortion.

Well, Mog Locker didn't come out until Aht Urghan (derp me), which also means things like satchel and other items weren't in play, either. I think the inventory cap was also something like 60 if you managed to get your hands on the CoP mats. To say you had no inventory issues tells me more that your jobs were under-geared at endgame.

NINs had to deal with tools, and if I recall, bag stacks weren't a thing, either. Better take 4 stacks of shihei to whatever, then the enfeebles and ele wheel stuff if you cared. BRD instruments? Those add up. Staves for all the avatars? That's 8, there. I suppose SAM would be the easiest to slack with since tanking was niche and /RNG was more a novelty, but I recall running at around 45-50 slots even then.

Sure, it's easy to call people pack rats or declare they didn't need certain things, but if you're someone who liked to milk every inch out of things, that **** added up. And heaven help you if you were a RDM that liked to melee and not suck at casting things. :P

Edited, Aug 15th 2014 11:49am by Seriha

Except we're talking about early game party trends. So firstly, a number of people didn't even HAVE /nin yet because they didn't have Tenshodo fame. Secondly, people didn't have a plethora of jobs leveled, and mnk and war always synergized best of the starting melee jobs. Hasso didn't get added until a couple years into the game (midway through ToAU), DNC even later than that. How convenient you are able to change the topic as it fits your needs. Also, war/sam didn't get Hasso until 50, and we're talking specifically about 30-60, that's a significant portion where /sam is store tp trait only.

The topic is about how hard it was to work a THF into party play. And you're living in an ideal world of top of the line players and perfect job combinations. Which is absolutely not how the game was, is, or ever will be.

THF is my job. It has been since I quit DRK at 40 when I couldn't afford sniper rings or Absorb-DEX (because THAT **** WAS ESSENTIAL!) I leveled up all through the early eras on THF, and there absolutely were groups where working in my SATA was a hassle. Also worth it, but a hassle. My only other 75 job in the game was PLD (which, no joke, I leveled simply to skill up parrying for my THF). So guess what? I got to see what groups were like with other THF's and my god I got to a point where I almost didn't want to invite the job I had championed for so long.

Also, to whoever commented that THF's fell out of favor when rampage parties got big. Meh, I guess, since THF's didn't respond well to it. I sure as hell merited on decos as THF plenty of times. Also merited on demons in Ule, and colibri were excellent. All as THF. All playing like a rampage war, but with DE spam. I did SA and TA solo, unstacked DE all day.

Not sure about others' experience. I used to love THF's back when I was leveling. SATA provoke thing was never an issue for my parties even if it put hate on the partner tank simply because between the first WS + second WS + distortion + BLM MB; It doesn't really matter who has the hate at this point because the mob is almost as good as dead. SATA VB puts out such strong damage that quite often, even the distortion damage itself is quite high. Couple that with the BLM MB and it's almost overkill really.
Of course, you may get slightly crappier experience if your DD's suck I suppose.

This

Exactly. If the mob is at near death, then it really doesn't matter who has hate. At that point, I would rather have a DD for the quicker kill as opposed to another provoke.

Ummm. Mages should always be buffed, so they wouldn't be using any additional mp that they wouldn't already be using. I didn't always cast phalanx, but I did always cast blink, aquaveil and stoneskin, because that's what mages are supposed to do. If that's killing your mp, then there is something terribly wrong with the party.


1. Your experiences != our experiences. I've had plenty of parties with both, because that actually made sense. Having one healer in many scenarios is a horrible set up, but I made it work.
2. Being the main healer as a RDM doesn't negate other roles. People are/were so close minded on RDM, that it became pigeon holed in their roles in the party.

You don't keep the spells up because you need them. You keep them up just in case you get hit, you don't have to worry about having to immediately cure yourself and add onto the hate. It's the same concept for WHMs having reraise. You rarely needed it, but let a situation occur when you die and you don't have it on. Additionally, that's how you level your enhancing without having to spam spells.

As for the losing of the spells, if the mob is dying off the SATA (or even taking severe damage), then it doesn't matter. The mp spent on blink/stoneskin would be less than the amount of mp spent on curing without SATA.



And again, what was standard in your experiences isn't the same for everyone else. A lot of it has to do on WHEN you leveled your job throughout FFXI time line. Fads come and go, so you can't act like whatever time period you leveled was the standard unless you're specifically talking about that time period. Even within that time period, the party make up changed throughout levels.

"organizing yourself better" more than likely means "making sacrifices on things you feel you could do without"

Which in turn made you lesser geared

I know exactly what you're trying to say, because I eventually leveled all the jobs. I had to do the exact same thing on a much bigger scale than you

The difference is that I never once tried to call myself well geared or say that I could perform full inventory swaps at a 2-3 minute notice, because I was/could not

Edited, Aug 16th 2014 11:05pm by Fynlar

Whatever dude you dont know me, and i have nothing to prove to you. Your completely wrong in your assumption that i couldnt possibly have been as geared as i say i was. The thing about the truth, is that its true whether you believe it or not.

Yet you still did.