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Item Levels Follow

#1 Jun 17 2013 at 2:00 PM Rating: Excellent
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Camate wrote:

During the Test Server update on June 14th, we made it so that item levels are now displayed on items that have been added since Seekers of Adoulin.

I’d like to explain a bit more in detail about how this will work.

What are item levels?
As mentioned previously, as we move forward, player growth will occur through the procurement of equipment, instead of levels. (We are planning to have new merits, but from a level perspective players will not go above level 99.)

As such, there will be differences between the item stats that can be equipped at level 99, so we've arranged the "item level" system to display the strength of each item.
(Item levels for accessories will not be displayed.)

The level of the items you can obtain from content will become higher as the content level increases as this is demonstrated below:
Screenshot


Item level display
Item levels will be displayed on the very bottom of a piece of equipment.
Screenshot

Screenshot


For equipment that can have enchantments or augments applied to it, the item level will be displayed as if the item were at its maximum value.

For example, if you had an item that could be augmented and it displays an item level of 113, augmenting it with the highest value possible would make that piece of equipment each its full potential at item level 113. (This rule is the same for both random augments and for Delve's rank type system.)


Displaying monster strength when "checking" them and the amount of experience points received
The strength of a monster that is displayed when using "check" and also the amount of experience points gained when defeating monsters will vary based on item level, not on your character's level. The fundamental rules will not change.

Based on the combination of the various equipment you are wearing and their item levels, your ultimate level will be tallied, and this is what will be referenced. However, accessory slots, grips, and items equipped in ammo that are classified as accessories will not have item levels and will not be referenced for this level.

The main reasons for switching to this is due to the fact that if we kept it the same as it is currently, regardless of how strong a monster is introduced the message displayed when you "check” would be inaccurate and we are aiming to change this. We are also aiming to make sure the amount of experience points gained from defeating enemies, as well as the pace in which they are obtained, do not become unbalanced.

Adoulin mission difficulty levels
Missions and quests will basically become unlocked through coalition assignments, and we plan on balancing it such that they can be undertaken with a single party, which has the strongest items at the time that can be purchased with Bayld.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/34679-Item-Levels?p=445881#post445881

Edited, Jun 17th 2013 4:00pm by Szabo
#2 Jun 17 2013 at 8:01 PM Rating: Excellent
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Oh man, this is not going to end well. It smells like a s h i t show to me.

Edited, Jun 17th 2013 7:02pm by Olorinus
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#3 Jun 17 2013 at 8:04 PM Rating: Excellent
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I can see it now: "HEY BRO, take off your good gear! You're killing the exp!"
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#4 Jun 17 2013 at 8:10 PM Rating: Good
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Erecia wrote:
I can see it now: "HEY BRO, take off your good gear! You're killing the exp!"


In before "I don't use macros cause it kills exp"
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#5 Jun 17 2013 at 8:38 PM Rating: Default
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hmmm You guys act like this is your first game you've played with ilvl before. There's probably some ilvl scaling in the pre-adoulin stuff too. SE is just now allowing us to see ilvl. Like I would imagine a 99 r/m/e to not be level 99 but to really be ilvl 115 or so. Just SE doesn't want to label it.

Edited, Jun 17th 2013 10:39pm by TikkaofLakshmi
#6 Jun 17 2013 at 8:49 PM Rating: Excellent
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Item level isn't a new concept but delivering it this late in the game is asinine. It's not fixing anything, who cares if someone gets exp based on level 99 versus 119 from an item level. Especially in a game that has a large amount of ways to exploit EXP. Examples: Grounds of Valor pages and idling while someone else higher level completes the pages. Abyssea EXP, which is the main way to gain experience currently and is completely unaffected by levels.

All this does is attempt to fix something that's not broken, and in the process makes it harder to complete things. Such as trials and Relic+2 augments, and anything else that relies on experience. The whole point of getting these armor and weapons is to make other things easier. I see no legitimate imbalance, just a cry to do older monotonous trials the harder way versus using new gear and weapons to make them easier.
#7 Jun 17 2013 at 9:51 PM Rating: Decent
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TikkaofLakshmi wrote:
hmmm You guys act like this is your first game you've played with ilvl before. There's probably some ilvl scaling in the pre-adoulin stuff too. SE is just now allowing us to see ilvl. Like I would imagine a 99 r/m/e to not be level 99 but to really be ilvl 115 or so. Just SE doesn't want to label it.

Edited, Jun 17th 2013 10:39pm by TikkaofLakshmi


Nope. Uh, no, you need to go back and read what they stated.

Find me a single instance of *ANY* game that uses iLVL on gear where putting on a piece of gear (or a gearset) actually changed the monsters *level*. That's *exactly* what they are describing here.

Please, go ahead. Search.

It's the single most stupid proposed/planned change they have for this game over its history. Level check in FFXI has always (and still is) the end-all-be-all calculation in everything done by you and to you when fighting monsters; the DEF/Attack ratio changes haven't really altered that a single bit despite stating that the changes would.

If it means that monster attack/defense ratios don't alter based on the new check message then that muddies everything worse because now the relative strength of monsters you're used to fighting (Toughs I can do this one, I can kinda sorta do VTs, don't touch ITs without full timers, etc.) is completely out of whack and you're literally flying blind. FFXI doesn't throw on free health like all other MMOs so that the % damage incoming you receive goes down with higher gear, thus you're always going to be taking the same damage incoming and dealing only slightly more outgoing because of how calculations work on level checks.

If it alters the actual monster level then a lot of things are screwed because of EXP calculations, and relic gear just got even more painful to augment for those incredibly useful pieces of macro gear on abilities.

~~~~

I know everyone's always "joked" about it with the development team in FFXI, but it honestly looks like this time they really don't know what the **** they're doing with Seekers of Adoulin.

Edited, Jun 17th 2013 11:54pm by Viertel
#8 Jun 17 2013 at 10:07 PM Rating: Good
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Surely item levels will only work on monsters in SoA, right?

...right?
#9 Jun 18 2013 at 5:38 AM Rating: Good
Viertel wrote:
I know everyone's always "joked" about it with the development team in FFXI, but it honestly looks like this time they really don't know what the **** they're doing with Seekers of Adoulin.

I haven't joked. This expansion is a ******** of epic proportions. Yes, I am still scrambling to do the content because I do want to ensure my character has it, if possible, but that's more because I have almost 10 years sunk into the game, and just tossing my hands up and walking away doesn't feel right... yet.

This expansion has no roadmap. It literally feels like they wake up and just toss out a random idea and run with it irregardless of how idiotic it is.

I am really glad XIV is as good as it is. It sucks that SE is making it, I almost wish another company was... but hopefully when their retardation kills FFXI, they won't kill FFXIV...

... who am I kidding, it will but at least it might mean another 10 years of good gaming is coming my way.
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#10 Jun 18 2013 at 7:59 AM Rating: Good
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If you stop for one second and think, this wont have any effect whatsoever... if youre lvl 99 which you need to use this gear, you wont need exp anyway. It's basicly just an updated "check" button to show us how hard mobs will be for us instead of everything checking IT+ no matter what for all eternity.
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#11 Jun 18 2013 at 8:27 AM Rating: Good
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crasyk wrote:
If you stop for one second and think, this wont have any effect whatsoever... if youre lvl 99 which you need to use this gear, you wont need exp anyway. It's basicly just an updated "check" button to show us how hard mobs will be for us instead of everything checking IT+ no matter what for all eternity.


Except that level 99 people do still get exp. merit points, recapping after playing sac, and trials in dynamis all spring to mind as examples. Getting punished for having good gear when, say, getting exp for an item in dynamis is asinine. Getting exp in dynamis is already asinine.i mean as much as I'd love nothing more than to hang out in xarc getting 10 exp per kill and everything.... It's asinine.

I swear the dev team doesn't play their own game.

Edited, Jun 18th 2013 7:28am by Olorinus
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When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#12 Jun 18 2013 at 8:43 AM Rating: Good
crasyk wrote:
If you stop for one second and think, this wont have any effect whatsoever... if youre lvl 99 which you need to use this gear, you wont need exp anyway. It's basicly just an updated "check" button to show us how hard mobs will be for us instead of everything checking IT+ no matter what for all eternity.

Wrong
Quote:
The main reasons for switching to this is due to the fact that if we kept it the same as it is currently, regardless of how strong a monster is introduced the message displayed when you "check” would be inaccurate and we are aiming to change this. We are also aiming to make sure the amount of experience points gained from defeating enemies, as well as the pace in which they are obtained, do not become unbalanced.

This means your gear-enhanced check will impact your EXP.

This means holding onto older gear for all eternity because heaven forbid you are trying to do a trial and forget that you're wearing your 130 level body piece, therefore zeroing your exp on your trial mob.
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Olorinus the Ludicrous wrote:
The idea of old school is way more interesting than the reality
#13 Jun 18 2013 at 11:57 AM Rating: Good
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I really don't get that they are doing this to avoid having to actually increase our level cap, and yet, the whole reason they're apparently doing this is to "balance" our EXP gain rate, which is something we mostly don't need now if we're at the 99 cap anyway.

It doesn't make any sense. Why can't they be more focused toward addressing things that matter?
#14 Jun 18 2013 at 12:38 PM Rating: Excellent
Because, apparently, we will be able to gain capped EXP on ITs more easily and "OMG THAT'S S BROKEN EVEN THOUGH PLAYERS ARE GETTING THOUSANDS OF EXP PER HOUR IN ABYSSEA!!"
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Olorinus the Ludicrous wrote:
The idea of old school is way more interesting than the reality
#15heldemon, Posted: Jun 18 2013 at 9:53 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) SE already removed level correction on SoA mobs beforehand for this reason as far as I know. Level check always has been the calculation for xp until this update hits but with them not upping the level limit anymore and "increasing our level" by giving us stronger gear instead they decided to do this. Relic trials will suck, hopefully they will exclude that somehow but otherwise I don't get all the complaining. It would be the equivalent of complaining at the 75 cap about not being able to get 500 xp per crab in kuftal tunnel at lvl 75.
#16 Jun 19 2013 at 6:15 PM Rating: Excellent
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Pawkeshup, Averter of the Apocalypse wrote:
This means holding onto older gear for all eternity because heaven forbid you are trying to do a trial and forget that you're wearing your 130 level body piece, therefore zeroing your exp on your trial mob.
Except that SE long ago made ALL MOBS 51 OR HIGHER GIVE EXP EVEN AT LEVEL 99. And AF3+1 or +2 should be plenty for stuff that low.

Unless, of course, the formula results in a number so low that it gets rounded down to zero. I think it's currently like 8xp at 99 without an exp ring. And I seem to recall that the formula should bottom out as low as 107 or so vs 51. That's solo (a party will make it lower), but if you need help to kill level 51 stuff at 99+, you have other problems.

I'm more concerned about it affecting your xp calculation just for killing stuff... or I would except that I'm getting so much XP lately just from ******** around that I'm almost finished with Shijin Spiral, and Abyssea exp should still work only now we can kill faster to reach the 600ish/mob cap sooner.
#17 Jun 20 2013 at 1:24 AM Rating: Good
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A big part of it is it is a stupid thing to waste dev resources on. When the **** we ever going to care what a mob checks to us? Either we are solo and so we can mess with it, get messed up and learn - or we are solo and we just sneak past it, or we are in an alliance/party and it doesn't matter (and if it does, we're boned and we will learn that the way we always have, by failing. I mean it might matter if it showed the strength of NMs (that level 15 rabbit currently still checks impossible to guage!) but realy, if SE is so worried about us judging the strength of trash mobs this content is only going to get more tedious,

Other than checking a few mobs when I first got to adoulin (which are prety boring given there doesn't appear to be any variation within mob families in a zone) the only time I've used check in recent memory was to see if something was one of those dumb NMs that drops a useless earring/synth mat, or if it was easy prey or higher for a trial.

Edited, Jun 20th 2013 12:26am by Olorinus
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#18 Jun 20 2013 at 11:50 AM Rating: Excellent
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Camate wrote:

Greetings!

One of the major questions and concerns we have been seeing thus far in regards to the newly introduced item levels and the changes to how "check" will function is "will Trial of the Magians be affected?"

This is definitely a valid concern and we will be making sure these can still be completed at higher levels. To accomplish this we will be keeping the experience points received for monsters level 99 and below the same and only making adjustments to monsters level 100+.

So basically, everything before Adoulin will still work the way it does currently, and all the monsters for Adoulin and beyond will have this adjustment applied.

Again, having item levels displayed on equipment is just a different way of showing character growth instead of having your character physically level up past level 99

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/34679-Item-Levels?p=446792#post446792
#19 Jun 20 2013 at 12:39 PM Rating: Good
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That's nice, but this still makes as much sense as putting in /bell.
#20 Jun 20 2013 at 1:19 PM Rating: Good
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I am most l likely the minority on this subject but I feel that item level is a necessity. Instead of upping the level cap and letting us grow and get stronger weapons, they kept the cap while giving us items as if we were those higher levels. This also makes killing lower level content mobs easier. As it stands right now on PUP with Rigor and Alternator I can go get massive solo chains for 800-1000 exp solo in Adoulin areas. This is broken as it doesn't scale properly seeing as how I have a level 113 weapon and fighting mobs that are lower than the level of the weapon I am wielding. I understand that people are upset and most of the argument has more to do with Dynamis exp farming as other ways of getting exp aren't really affected (Abyssea/Voidwatch). Unfortunately it's going to be a situation where you can equip higher level item gear and kill faster for lower exp or simulate a level sync by not equipping adoulin gear. Many people may not agree with this, but this is the kind of balance that SE is seeking.

edit: Saw the post that it only applies to Adoulin.

Edited, Jun 20th 2013 12:20pm by ImmortalAlchemist
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#21 Jun 20 2013 at 4:22 PM Rating: Good
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But why does it matter if you can get lol exp? Especially when no matter how fast you're going, it seems extremely unlikely you are going faster than abyssea. **** even voidwatch is massive exp for the amount of effort. So again, why does it matter what your chains in Adoulin are?

If meriting in Adoulin suddenly becomes attractive, why would that be a problem? I don't get it.
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When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#22 Jun 20 2013 at 6:56 PM Rating: Excellent
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ImmortalAlchemist wrote:
I am most l likely the minority on this subject but I feel that item level is a necessity. Instead of upping the level cap and letting us grow and get stronger weapons, they kept the cap while giving us items as if we were those higher levels.

This is great in theory, but a potential disaster with the way the playerbase is, especially for those that didn't/couldn't jump into the new content at release. As the gap in gear grows greater, those without will never be able to catch up. With gear replacing levels, it would be like trying to join a merit party when you were only level 60. Why would anybody invite you and slow down their own progression to let you catch up.
#23 Jun 20 2013 at 10:39 PM Rating: Default
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ImmortalAlchemist wrote:
I am most l likely the minority on this subject but I feel that item level is a necessity. Instead of upping the level cap and letting us grow and get stronger weapons, they kept the cap while giving us items as if we were those higher levels. This also makes killing lower level content mobs easier. As it stands right now on PUP with Rigor and Alternator I can go get massive solo chains for 800-1000 exp solo in Adoulin areas. This is broken as it doesn't scale properly seeing as how I have a level 113 weapon and fighting mobs that are lower than the level of the weapon I am wielding. I understand that people are upset and most of the argument has more to do with Dynamis exp farming as other ways of getting exp aren't really affected (Abyssea/Voidwatch). Unfortunately it's going to be a situation where you can equip higher level item gear and kill faster for lower exp or simulate a level sync by not equipping adoulin gear. Many people may not agree with this, but this is the kind of balance that SE is seeking.

edit: Saw the post that it only applies to Adoulin.


So, by the very definition of getting gear upgrades (you know, to get stronger), you get stronger and a monster that was Tough becomes easier to kill. For years this was the entire MO for merit parties and such. You got better geared, **** died quicker, and you could rake in faster EXP. Got better gear? You could clear Nyzul faster and do more floors.

Now though, they're stating that they want to punish you for actively seeking out those upgrades. They made the effort to cause Adoulin monsters to give more experience (and in the case of Umbrils MUCH more) than any other T/VT/IT monsters gave in comparison before so that players would have a reason to kill them. Of course, they're going to undue that work and punish you for actually getting those gear upgrades, filthy MMO player you.

You're OK with being punished? Ooooook....

Because this isn't "balancing". This is the same as stating "OK, for every piece of Salvage II gear you get, the droprates on all plans will be reduced by 50% of its current rate and non will be guarranteed anymore." or "As you get gear upgrades and your item level increases the rate at which you gain plasm or Bayld will be reduced to compensate for your speed of killing."

As far as EXP for everything that's not Relic augments, does it *REALLY* matter how much you can get solo? If you can get 100K by yourself outside in Adoulin does it honestly make a damned difference when you can pull close to 200K (and probably more now) in Abyssea? This is just another example (much like Blizzard and constantly changing class mechanics majorly every single damned expansion) of fixing what isn't broken.

This will ruin my favorite way of getting merit points now: Skirmish runs. I could completely cap out merits in 3-4 runs if we're using at least Rank 3~ statues. That's not going to be possible now. It really is killing off content faster before it's even out; not even Blizzard is that bad.
#24 Jun 20 2013 at 11:03 PM Rating: Default
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xantav wrote:

This is great in theory, but a potential disaster with the way the playerbase is, especially for those that didn't/couldn't jump into the new content at release. As the gap in gear grows greater, those without will never be able to catch up. With gear replacing levels, it would be like trying to join a merit party when you were only level 60. Why would anybody invite you and slow down their own progression to let you catch up.


They said they would make previous content easier over time as new content was released. The bayld gear you can get today is pretty much the floor gear as perle/aurore/teal gear was when Abyssea came out. I'm assuming there'll be a new set of floor gear when the next expansion hits if this pattern continues.
#25 Jun 21 2013 at 6:09 PM Rating: Good
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xantav wrote:
ImmortalAlchemist wrote:
I am most l likely the minority on this subject but I feel that item level is a necessity. Instead of upping the level cap and letting us grow and get stronger weapons, they kept the cap while giving us items as if we were those higher levels.

This is great in theory, but a potential disaster with the way the playerbase is, especially for those that didn't/couldn't jump into the new content at release. As the gap in gear grows greater, those without will never be able to catch up. With gear replacing levels, it would be like trying to join a merit party when you were only level 60. Why would anybody invite you and slow down their own progression to let you catch up.


If you wanted to join a merit party, but were level 60 (let's pretend abyssea doesn't exist), what's the obvious thing to do? You level your job. Same thing is occuring here. To play "catch up" you need to go through the different content levels. The whole system is tier'd in such a way so that new players to Adoulin couldn't simply just take their pre SoA gear and do high end content out the gate. Granted SE did ***** up with the Delve system by not implementing Rage timers from the start so people could do higher tier content by throwing zombies and time at the Delve NM's without going through the previous tiers first.

When you lay out all the content we have now and in the next update, everything almost fills out nicely

Screenshot



You start at the bottom and work your way up the ladder

Bayld v1 equipment > Skirmish Weapons > Bayld v2 Equipment > Delve Tier 1 > Skirmish v2 weapons/armor > Delve T2 > Delve Bosses

The only drawback is Delve T1/2 people only want players with Delve weapons so it's a bit exclusive but that is another topic regarding whats wrong with delve.

As it stands right now, the 5 Skirmish v2 sets we will get next update will be stronger than the Delve equipment sets in terms of item level while the Skirmish v2 upgrades for weapons will be one level below Delve weapons. So even if you missed the rush to do Delve, there will be other alternatives in terms of gear/weapons.

Edited, Jun 21st 2013 5:12pm by ImmortalAlchemist

Edited, Jun 21st 2013 5:13pm by ImmortalAlchemist
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Return1 argued with Mellowy and wrote:

Seriously, you won't be @#%^ing happy until SE releases a full sized Bahamut avatar you can @#%^ing ride and use to kill players that annoy you, one shot AV/PW/Shinryuu, and burn the FFXI nations to the @#%^ing ground for fun. All while actually restoring mp used instead of costing any.

#26 Jun 22 2013 at 12:40 AM Rating: Excellent
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While that's nice in concept... The issue is that often SE doesn't understand who makes gear "good" so you have the issue of BLM weapons in the new content - they don't follow the progression at all. That is a big part of why I find this whole concept asinine. If I am wearing some level 145 snapshot hands on my blue mage, that doesn't make me level 145. That makes me stupid. Yet there is all sorts of gear at every tier with jobs on it that it would be useless for.

If they want to have gear levels they need to stop being so lazy with this "have three sets, only one or two peices which are any good for a given job" crap, and get serious about designing individual peices of gear which suit 1-3 jobs really well. So those level 145 gloves with BLU mage on them actually make sense for a blu mage to wear. Otherwise, the gear levels mean nothing.
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When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


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