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Level 99 R/M/E and WoE Weapons Follow

#1 Apr 26 2013 at 12:02 PM Rating: Good
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Akihiko Matsui wrote:

Matsui here.

Thank you all so much for the feedback on relic, mythic, empyrean, and Walk of Echoes weapons. It has helped out tremendously.

After reading over all of your feedback, instead of continuing the growth of these weapons by unlocking the weapon skills that are tied to each of the weapons, I feel it would be better to perform a revamp on RME weapons. (Regarding Walk of Echoes weapons, I will talk about this below, but they will be involved with unlocking the specialized weapon skills.)

I've been reworking a lot, and writing it all up, but it seems the post turned out rather lengthy, so once you have been able to read through it all and digest it we'd love to hear your feedback.

Content Level
We've received a lot of questions about the stats on Adoulin equipment, and I'd like to once again explain about growth and content levels in Seekers of Adoulin as this is a critical aspect in order to receive feedback on the revamps for RME weapons.

The content in Adoulin has been designed with a repeating play-cycle where you challenge content that you are able to at that moment in time, gather equipment, become stronger, and then take on higher tier content which will allow you to gather even stronger equipment.

It's through the procurement of equipment that will allow players to grow and level up.

We've established content levels for Adoulin content as a means to objectively display difficulty benchmarks. The below is a concrete illustration of these content levels.

Screenshot

 
Content Level    Up to April 2013 	Next version update (currently adjusting)


Equipment strength is dependent on the level of the content you need to challenge in order to obtain the equipment, not the level in which it can be equipped. With the gear that is released in Adoulin from here on out, they can be equipped at level 99; however, instead of considering these to be level 99 pieces of equipment, it would be better for you to think of their level in terms of the content level (for example, level 110 or level 120).

The strength of the monsters that will be introduced are matched to that of the content level, but since there is somewhat of a solidified hierarchy between content, it's been setup so that the strength can be felt with even one level difference in content level. Oppositely, the parameters on Adoulin equipment have been calculated and set in order to deal with these monsters.

Fundamentally we will be making it so that the content level for content to come in the future continues to become higher, but there may be cases where we fill in areas where there is a large jump in content level as needed.

Also, in order to make it so there are various types of content sprawled across a single content level, we are supplementing it with content variations. We've also designed plans to enable resting periods where we will expand laterally instead of vertically, because players may get burnt out going full steam ahead.

In the next version update we will be adding content focusing on filling in the gaps as well as supplementing with content variation.

In the above chart, please look at the “Next version update (currently adjusting)” column. For content levels 6-9 (Skirmish/Wildskeeper Reives), we will be adding equipment appropriate for these content levels that can be exchanged for Bayld along with new Colonization and Lair Reives. Additionally, we will be filling in content for levels 13 and 17.

For those players who are already able to take on Skirmish, Wildskeeper Reives, and Delve at this point in time, it will not be absolutely necessary to challenge this content, but we will be making the above adjustments in case you want to increase your success rate, or are feeling that the current situation is still a bit tough.

Also, as a plan to resolve the issue where Skirmish is not really connecting the content as was planned, we will be undergoing maintenance at the end of this week and making it so statue segments can be obtained from Colonization and Lair Reives at a set rate. (These adjustments are separate from the rules associated with obtaining these items via Coalition Assignments, HELM, and Soul Pyres.)

By performing these adjustments we envision the below flow:

1. Challenge Colonization and Lair Reives
2. Obtain statue segments by participating in these reives
3. Challenge Skirmish with the parts you have obtained

Weapon Revamps

Sorry, I got off track for a bit, but now I'd like to return to the topic at hand.

To start off, I still need to discuss the implementation period with the rest of the development team, so it will be a bit difficult to address this immediately in the next version update, and we cannot make any promises as to when this will take place.

In regards to the kind of stats that will be added when we revamp these weapons, fundamentally the afterglow and aftermath effects as well as the other special stats will carry over and we'll be setting damage values, attack, and accuracy stats to coincide with the content level.

While the stats will be quite strong, we do not plan on making it possible to continuously enhance them in short intervals like the original method of enhancing via Trial of the Magians.

However, RME weapons have been considered the ultimate weapons up until this point in time, but I feel that this needs to change a bit.

I would like to make a shift so that instead of having it so that other weapons aren't necessary if you have RME weapons, you have a choice. If you are happy with RME, than you can use RME, and for those who want other weapons you can use other weapons.

With that said, there may be players who are worried if these weapons will eventually become unusable, but to give an example we had the lead make some calculations for the stats needed to combat the Delve boss monsters, and the below is what the RME swords would look like:

Excalibur

Quote:

DMG: 73 Delay: 233 Attack+40 "Knights of Round" Additional effect: Damage varies with HP



Quote:

DMG: 121 Delay: 233 Attack+60 Accuracy+20 "Knights of Round" Additional effect: Damage varies with HP


Burtgang
Quote:

DMG: 73 Delay: 264 Enmity+18 Physical damage taken -18% Reduces Enmity decrease when taking damage. "Atonement" Aftermath: Increases Acc./Atk./Occ. Attacks twice or thrice


Quote:

DMG: 131 Delay: 264 Attack+20 Accuracy+20 Enmity+18 Physical damage taken -18% Reduces Enmity decrease when taking damage. "Atonement" Aftermath: Increases Acc./Atk./Occ. Attacks twice or thrice


Almace
Quote:

DMG: 70 Delay: 224 DEX+20 "Chant du Cygne" Aftermath: Occ. deals double damage


Quote:

DMG: 114 Delay: 224 Attack+20 Accuracy+20 DEX+20 "Chant du Cygne" Aftermath: Occ. deals double damage


In regards to Walk of Echoes weapons, these were implemented with the concept of allowing players to use the specialized empyrean weapon skills, so instead of revamping them we felt it more appropriate to have them serve to unlock the weapons skills (planning to have restrictions based on jobs and level). Also, we are looking into adjustments for the method to create Walk of Echoes weapons.

In conclusion

Apologies that this post is so long, but based on all of the above we would love to hear your feedback on the revamps to level 99 RME weapons and unlocking weapon skills with Walk of Echoes weapons.

I will be sure to read over each and every comment you all post.

My thoughts and ideas have completely turned around the plans that were originally drawn up, and I had to sit and really discuss the idea with the rest of the development team, including the possibilities of making this happen.

I apologize that this response was late and that I made you all wait.

Thank you all very much.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/33458-Follow-up-Level-99-Relic-Mythic-Empyrean-and-Walk-of-Echoes-Weapons?p=432132#post432132

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Akihiko Matsui wrote:

Matsui here.

I have some follow-up information regarding how we plan to build on relic, mythic, empyrean, and Walk of Echoes ("coin") weapons (I'll refer to them as RMEC below. Apologies that I left out coin weapons in my last post).

There are many who feel upset and uneasy regarding the recently introduced weapons, as well as the information that has been conveyed until now. So while this information is still not finalized, I would like to give a bit more insight into our plans.

We are planning to unlock the special weapon skills that are granted from RMEC weapons when you have upgraded them to their level 99 form (this includes non-afterglow weapons, and shield/instruments will not be included in this). However, we plan on adding some conditions that fall in line with the jobs that can equip the respective RMEC weapons.

As we have yet to finish all the testing as to whether or not we can do this, please let me again reiterate that this is not yet finalized.

Due to the nature of this topic, we definitely need to proceed carefully, so despite the fact that I'm only mentioning this at the idea level, I understand that the level of disappointment will be quite great if I say that it is too difficult to accomplish this after all, and I was thinking it would be best to let you all know once it took a bit more shape.

You're probably thinking "if that’s the case, then don’t announce anything," but because I thought it wouldn't be good to not let you know anything until plans were finalized I decided to make this post. (I've been under so much stress I feel like I'm going to get an ulcer >< But I know I shouldn't be complaining.)

While the memories you made and the stats on your equipment cannot always be proportionate, we are trying our best to see if we can keep all of the effort spent on earning these weapons intact.

We plan to do all that we can, but please give us some time for this.


Akihiko Matsui wrote:

Quote:

I have the following questions/comments regarding the unlocking of these special weapon skills, and I'm sure a lot of others are thinking the same:

- Relics: There are gaps in a lot of the weapon skills for these weapons. For example, there is no special advantage to Knights of Round or Scourge, while on the other hand unlocking Catastrophe or Coronach would lead to the destruction of balance.

- Mythic: These weapon skills can already be unlocked through the quest "Unlocking a Myth."

- Empyrean/Coin: How will these weapon skills be differentiated for the two weapons?

I was thinking this question would pop up.

I apologize, but unfortunately I am unable to answer anything at this point in time. One of the reasons I felt I should not have mentioned anything during a stage where various things have not been finalized yet, despite prefacing it that this is non-finalized information, was following up on individual specific questions based on supposition.

Being silent because it's not possible to answer right now would remove the whole purpose of why I posted, but on the other hand, continuing to entertain suppositions would cause expectations to grow even more wild. As a result of this, things that I didn't promise would turn into promises, and I would like to avoid making it seem like we are breaking promises.

With that said, the answer for the moment for many things will be "Sorry, but I cannot answer that right now."

Once the content has been fleshed out and confirmed I will be sure to let you all know the details, but please give me some time.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/33112-Level-99-Relic-Mythic-Empyrean-and-WoE-Weapons

Camate wrote:

Greetings everyone,

I'd like to share a post from Producer Akihiko Matsui in regards to a comment that was picked up from an interview relating to the future of relic, mythic, and empyrean weapons.

Akihiko Matsui wrote:

I'd like to deeply apologize for mentioning "Don’t throw away your relic, mythic, and empyrean weapons" during an interview. Relic, mythic, and empyrean (below R/M/E weapons) take a great deal of time and difficulty to obtain, and this expression was extremely lacking in consideration for all of the players who tried so hard to complete them.

What I wished to convey was that we will be implementing a system to build on R/M/E weapons, so please have them in your possession, and there was no other meaning intended.

In regards to this system, the outline has been finished; however, we have yet to test if what we have planned can be realized and if we can secure the proper amount of manpower to continue it. We are at a point in time right now where it's difficult to explain the details, so please allow us to discuss this another day.

For the Adoulin end-game content aimed at the top players, where they can obtain high level equipment as well, we will gradually make adjustments to difficulty so that once new end-game content is released you'll be able to obtain these items if you put in a bit of effort.

Also, we will similarly be adjusting content in existing areas, though it may take some time and be a limited time event.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/31485-New-weapons-with-higher-base-damage-then-relics?p=424630#post424630

Akihiko Matsui wrote:

Hello,

Matsui here.

We've been receiving some questions in regards to what we will be doing with relic, mythic, and empyrean weapons moving forward, so I would like to address what I can at the moment.

We are not planning to enhance relic, mythic, or empyrean weapons via Trial of the Magians or through other methods.

However, in regards to these weapons that you have enhanced up to level 99, we are formulating plans so that they do not go to waste. (Including the weapons that do not yet have their afterglows.)

In regards to the shields and instruments, even in light of the growth that will take place for characters with Adoulin equipment, these in particular are still at the highest caliber and will not be addressed in the plans mentioned above.

While I'm unable to talk about the specifics at this point in time, as soon as the time comes where I can, I will be sure to let you all know.


Edited, Apr 26th 2013 2:17pm by Szabo

Edited, May 1st 2013 2:32pm by Szabo

Edited, May 9th 2013 4:03pm by Szabo
#2 Apr 26 2013 at 12:29 PM Rating: Default
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I'm fine with this, my relic and empyrean weapons still have their place and I firmly believed people misinterpreted what was said originally anyhow.

People who have a problem with this are whining complainers that need to learn this is an MMO and the game is changing. They need to change with it.

Edited, Apr 26th 2013 2:30pm by FUJILIVES
#3 Apr 26 2013 at 12:34 PM Rating: Decent
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I know it's a pipe dream, but I'd love the ability to combine R + M + E, even if it meant more effort than the sum of it's parts.

For example, I'd be willing to farm up more than a relic to put Bravura's -PDT on my Ukon.
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#4 Apr 26 2013 at 12:50 PM Rating: Excellent
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If only. But how do you combine RNG's weapons when they are a mix of archery and marksmanship? How do you handle something like DNC being on Twashtar but not Mandau? Also, the offspring of a Claustrum/Tupsimati/Hvergelmir union might give you cancer.

It's too bad they've been so rigid about new jobs and relic weapons.
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#5 Apr 26 2013 at 5:04 PM Rating: Excellent
FUJILIVES wrote:
I'm fine with this, my relic and empyrean weapons still have their place and I firmly believed people misinterpreted what was said originally anyhow.

People who have a problem with this are whining complainers that need to learn this is an MMO and the game is changing. They need to change with it.

Edited, Apr 26th 2013 2:30pm by FUJILIVES


Though the game is changing, Square Enix has long held those weapons (Relic and Mythics especially) to sort of be the best of the best, so people can understandably be a bit frustrated when their high tier weapon that they've spent millions of gil (not to mention lots of invested time) on is outdone by these Skirmish weapons/Wildskeeper Reive weapons that you can potentially obtain in little to no time at all.
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#6 Apr 26 2013 at 6:31 PM Rating: Decent
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Professor Shock Vlorsutes wrote:
FUJILIVES wrote:
I'm fine with this, my relic and empyrean weapons still have their place and I firmly believed people misinterpreted what was said originally anyhow.

People who have a problem with this are whining complainers that need to learn this is an MMO and the game is changing. They need to change with it.

Edited, Apr 26th 2013 2:30pm by FUJILIVES


Though the game is changing, Square Enix has long held those weapons (Relic and Mythics especially) to sort of be the best of the best, so people can understandably be a bit frustrated when their high tier weapon that they've spent millions of gil (not to mention lots of invested time) on is outdone by these Skirmish weapons/Wildskeeper Reive weapons that you can potentially obtain in little to no time at all.

While I understand the grounds for the whining, I still feel it is unmerited and welcome (any) new changes to a stale game. As I originally stated, "I'm fine with it".

Edited, Apr 26th 2013 8:35pm by FUJILIVES
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#7 May 01 2013 at 12:35 PM Rating: Excellent
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Akihiko Matsui wrote:

Matsui here.

I have some follow-up information regarding how we plan to build on relic, mythic, empyrean, and Walk of Echoes ("coin") weapons (I'll refer to them as RMEC below. Apologies that I left out coin weapons in my last post).

There are many who feel upset and uneasy regarding the recently introduced weapons, as well as the information that has been conveyed until now. So while this information is still not finalized, I would like to give a bit more insight into our plans.

We are planning to unlock the special weapon skills that are granted from RMEC weapons when you have upgraded them to their level 99 form (this includes non-afterglow weapons, and shield/instruments will not be included in this). However, we plan on adding some conditions that fall in line with the jobs that can equip the respective RMEC weapons.

As we have yet to finish all the testing as to whether or not we can do this, please let me again reiterate that this is not yet finalized.

Due to the nature of this topic, we definitely need to proceed carefully, so despite the fact that I'm only mentioning this at the idea level, I understand that the level of disappointment will be quite great if I say that it is too difficult to accomplish this after all, and I was thinking it would be best to let you all know once it took a bit more shape.

You're probably thinking "if that’s the case, then don’t announce anything," but because I thought it wouldn't be good to not let you know anything until plans were finalized I decided to make this post. (I've been under so much stress I feel like I'm going to get an ulcer >< But I know I shouldn't be complaining.)

While the memories you made and the stats on your equipment cannot always be proportionate, we are trying our best to see if we can keep all of the effort spent on earning these weapons intact.

We plan to do all that we can, but please give us some time for this.


Akihiko Matsui wrote:

Quote:

I have the following questions/comments regarding the unlocking of these special weapon skills, and I'm sure a lot of others are thinking the same:

- Relics: There are gaps in a lot of the weapon skills for these weapons. For example, there is no special advantage to Knights of Round or Scourge, while on the other hand unlocking Catastrophe or Coronach would lead to the destruction of balance.

- Mythic: These weapon skills can already be unlocked through the quest "Unlocking a Myth."

- Empyrean/Coin: How will these weapon skills be differentiated for the two weapons?

I was thinking this question would pop up.

I apologize, but unfortunately I am unable to answer anything at this point in time. One of the reasons I felt I should not have mentioned anything during a stage where various things have not been finalized yet, despite prefacing it that this is non-finalized information, was following up on individual specific questions based on supposition.

Being silent because it's not possible to answer right now would remove the whole purpose of why I posted, but on the other hand, continuing to entertain suppositions would cause expectations to grow even more wild. As a result of this, things that I didn't promise would turn into promises, and I would like to avoid making it seem like we are breaking promises.

With that said, the answer for the moment for many things will be "Sorry, but I cannot answer that right now."

Once the content has been fleshed out and confirmed I will be sure to let you all know the details, but please give me some time.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/33112-Level-99-Relic-Mythic-Empyrean-and-WoE-Weapons
#8 May 01 2013 at 12:52 PM Rating: Excellent
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#9 May 01 2013 at 12:58 PM Rating: Excellent
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Being able to keep Ukko's Fury does make me feel a bit better, but that's the only one I'd be able to hold onto without starting and 99-ing a whole new weapon.

Still, why should I, a mere WoE weapon holder get to keep Ukko's whereas someone with a 90 Ukon has to either make a Shamash as well or get 1500 plates and riftthingies. I don't wanna shoot myself in the foot here, but still... it seems odd.
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#10 May 01 2013 at 1:49 PM Rating: Excellent
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Camiie wrote:
Being able to keep Ukko's Fury does make me feel a bit better, but that's the only one I'd be able to hold onto without starting and 99-ing a whole new weapon.

Still, why should I, a mere WoE weapon holder get to keep Ukko's whereas someone with a 90 Ukon has to either make a Shamash as well or get 1500 plates and riftthingies. I don't wanna shoot myself in the foot here, but still... it seems odd.

This, they still haven't referenced the fact that a lot of the legendary weapons don't make it to 99. Matsui's response still makes it seems like they're thinking "99 or gtfo, you can /toss your trash 90/95 weapon."

Personally, I like Matsui's approch to information, giving us the information, even when the plans are in preliminary stages, being muh more forthcoming than Tanaka ever was. However that doesn't make up for basically having no idea what what their next move is. I mean, they bring out these weapons with absolutely ludicrous DMG values, and then basically say "Don't worry. We don't really know how, but we'll make your 99 relic useful again." Not very reassuring.
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#11 May 01 2013 at 3:24 PM Rating: Good
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Camiie wrote:
Being able to keep Ukko's Fury does make me feel a bit better, but that's the only one I'd be able to hold onto without starting and 99-ing a whole new weapon.

Still, why should I, a mere WoE weapon holder get to keep Ukko's whereas someone with a 90 Ukon has to either make a Shamash as well or get 1500 plates and riftthingies. I don't wanna shoot myself in the foot here, but still... it seems odd.


Yeah. To be honest, even though it's much easier to get a relic @ 75 or an Empyrean @ 85, I really don't see why they won't just allow people to perma-unlock those weaponskills as soon as you gain access to them. For the most part (MOST), they're not really worth anything outside of riding AM3 and we've already been given access to Mythic weaponskills years ago.
#12 May 01 2013 at 3:37 PM Rating: Good
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Felt like the WS should've been unlockable for a long time now, so seeing that as a consideration sounds like good news. In the meantime, if that's all they're relegated to (albeit Yagrush stands out as something still useful despite that), I'd just say it affirms the need of acquisition tweaks. As such, to help avoid burnt bridges, all current RMEs could be tagged for a one-time turn-in that would refund the difference in requirements if possible. That way, if you did the 1500 HMP and it's changed to 150, you can get 1350 back and easily apply that to other weapons if you'd like or just sell them. I also don't see why AMs need to be implicitly removed if you had done the true version, but I guess there's some behind the scenes mechanical spaghetti code hiccup they'll have to fight through.
#13 May 01 2013 at 8:04 PM Rating: Excellent
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Just unlocking the special weaponskill isn't gonna cut it when a lot of those weaponskills are easily bested by the merited choices, especially now that 1 merit is stronger than four merits were under the old system. They'll have to add in some additional benefit alongside that.

Edited, May 1st 2013 10:11pm by Melphina
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#14 May 02 2013 at 12:23 AM Rating: Default
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You cannot replace r/m/e's until they're replaced by weapons even harder to obtain. And even then, tossing relics out of usefulness ruins a LOT of people who play Dynamis, tossing mythics will cause many people to not care about salvage anymore (yes yes, you do this for the gear but you can't say the 200k+ you can make a night doesn't aid in you going) and tossing out empyreans will severely hinder abyssea involvement and you'd need to find a way to help new players get some good endgame gear when they are useless pre-atmas and have limited gil, you can only imagine the number of seals, +2 items and mega boss kills get handed out because of someone farming for empyrean weapons.

Hopefully the floodgates opening about the mere mention of them being replaced will cause them to change their mind.
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#15 May 02 2013 at 3:38 AM Rating: Good
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Camiie wrote:
Being able to keep Ukko's Fury does make me feel a bit better, but that's the only one I'd be able to hold onto without starting and 99-ing a whole new weapon.

Still, why should I, a mere WoE weapon holder get to keep Ukko's whereas someone with a 90 Ukon has to either make a Shamash as well or get 1500 plates and riftthingies. I don't wanna shoot myself in the foot here, but still... it seems odd.
Even if you transfer the weaponskill and maybe some of the weapon's traits into a Delve weapon but it will never be as awesome as an Ukon. Part of what makes an Ukon great is the weapon's unique model. It's a great axe but it's also a big **** hammer. I would be sad if my Ryuno went into storage, as it has a very unique and distinctive model. The importance of aesthetics may vary from person to person, but it's definitely something that matters to me at least.
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#16 May 02 2013 at 6:04 AM Rating: Excellent
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Honestly if they unlocked the special attributes of the weapon as well as the weaponskill that would be sufficient for me. Relic's hidden damage multiplier effect has a huge impact on their damage, and empyrean's and mythics rely on the aftermath. The only real issue is determining how to handle the differences between the three legendary categories and their upgrade level. Empyrean's only benefit from increased damage on the 95 and 99 upgrades, whereas relic's get a weaponskill damage multiplier at 95 and an even larger one at 99, so they'd have to do more than duplicate the current model or heavy metals and rift pieces will become throw away items. But If they properly account for the major differences between the legendary categories and how they progress from 90 to 99 they can implement a mechanic that allows you to take the benefits with you.

But yeah, if all they give people is "you can use the weaponskill anywhere" that's a smack in the face.
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#17 May 02 2013 at 6:50 AM Rating: Decent
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Based on his thread, only 99 R/M/E/C Weapons need apply. So the multipliers at 90/95 aren't really relevant.
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#18 May 02 2013 at 8:44 AM Rating: Good
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How about... those R/M/E weapons adding increased base damage / ODD / OAT on top of future weapons if you decide to trade them in?
#19 May 02 2013 at 9:11 AM Rating: Good
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We'd rather see Magian weapons get another tier that brings their damage "up to par" than RME focus, and if they do anything with RME, the most logical thing would be to add more RME trials as well... all this daydreaming of WS learning / Aftermath merging etc is way out in left field... and I'd think by now most of the player-base would know this.

The vast majority of the playerbase has relied on Magian trial weapons of one-form-or-another and most people have invested large chunks of time in several of them, it'd be a shame if all of those went to waste.
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#20 May 02 2013 at 10:05 AM Rating: Default
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I would not want to see RME forgotten for the sake of updating the rather miniscule comparative time spent on the lesser magian weapons (remember, RME are also involved in magian trials).

The merging of these weapon skills with other equipment is directly from SE's head of development, Matsui. I wouldn't classify this as daydreaming or way out in left field. If anything is way out in left field it's comparing the large chunks of time to bring an RME up to 90, 95 or 99 vs. the relatively tiny amount of time to build a lesser magian. While both should be kept fresh, especially since 99 level weapons pre-Adoulin are really really recent in SE standards (I mean how long have they kept ground kings relevant???? or pre-school level content like Sky????), if it's either lesser magians or RME, RME is the clear winner.
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#21 May 02 2013 at 2:54 PM Rating: Decent
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So basically you bust your **** to build a weapon just to strip out the shiny WS from it.
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#22 May 02 2013 at 4:44 PM Rating: Good
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I don't think that'll do much good for Mythics.

I already have Stringing Pummel. Why would I want to farm 29,997 more alex* for reduced Overload (something I rarely get these days and can Cooldown it when I do) and automaton OAT and +17 dmg, even if they gave them you without the weapon equipped, and then farm it to 99 for +41 dmg, when I could get those nice new MNK+PUP h2h with +140ish dmg?

*and finish my second run through Assault (13/50 now) and do more Ein and Nyzul (about 50% each on those), even before the insane time sinks to get it to 99. Right now I have THREE alex turned in, and those were free drops from a Salvage run for a clear.
#23 May 02 2013 at 10:16 PM Rating: Default
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what i find funny is that same people crying over the REM issue are the ones creating farming parties, reives, and delves - "R/E/M only"

thats a pretty elitist perspective. then you call them out and they cry some more. not really an issue for me but i cant believe people are so one sided.
#24 May 03 2013 at 5:28 AM Rating: Decent
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TheBroker wrote:
what i find funny is that same people crying over the REM issue are the ones creating farming parties, reives, and delves - "R/E/M only"

thats a pretty elitist perspective. then you call them out and they cry some more. not really an issue for me but i cant believe people are so one sided.

Um, yea, of course they would be crying over it. They made their weapons already, and while they are willing to farm the new gear because, well SE really isn't giving them an option to be better geared, they have every right to be **** that al their time was just **** away in one update.
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#25 May 03 2013 at 5:58 AM Rating: Decent
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Let's try and look at this a bit objectively.

Relics and Mythics (and to a very small degree Emps) has been FFXIs "top notch" weapons since they came to the game. I'm saying Emps to a small degree because it's not even remotely as hard to get them to a functional level (lvl 99 is another matter).

A lot of people spent an immense amount of time to get them, probably many years for some of the first, where it now can be solo farmed in about 3 months if your only income is dynamis solo (mythics would take about 1 year if only soloing dyna, all other requirements out of the picture).

With this said we can all agree getting a relic has become a lot more easy, and even casual players has access to them with 2 hours of dyna-solo here and there.

This goes for all old content, gear as well which used to be the absolute best (see E.Body etc etc) and was incredible expensive and hard to get, is now cheap and easy to get if you have a few friends.

Main difference between the gear and weapons would be it stil cost the same to make a weapon, while the gear is cheaper due to a higher supply of materials and more bosses dropping abj.

However, given the fact these weapons are now easily accessible to the whole playerbase, would it make sence that they stay on top of the mountain? In my opinion no. As we know, Adoulin will continue to grow with more Nakuaals and Delves, and I believe we are far from seeing what will be the new king in terms of gear/weapons. Even though the new weapons outclass R/E/M's, they are stil not easy to obtain for all at this time.

I really do hope though that SE once again release weapons of mass "Demolishing" that are insanely hard to obtain, so we once again can see that one person running around and go "HOLY **** It's just not the same when every single player you see run around with a relic, emp or mythic. Just like I'm no longer impressed by someone having HQ E.Body.

And if you farmed for 3 months to get your 1337 Ragnarok and get butthurt, please feel special standing next to the other 90% of the server. It's just not what it used to be.

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#26 May 03 2013 at 6:21 AM Rating: Decent
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I don't think the issue is about being butthurt, I think the issue is that if this isn't adjusted, SE just made 10 years of content obsolete and effectively crashed the economy by making the upgrade items for R/E/M (which account for 75% of the economy) worthless. So I guess maybe you could say I'm butthurt- I'm butthurt that they may have just destroyed the game...
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#27 May 03 2013 at 6:50 AM Rating: Decent
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Also let's at least be objective about 3 months of dynamis (+ a little extra help) to get a 75 Relic vs. getting 99 in any R/E/M. Two vastly different ranges of work. Assuming you have a gil stream supply of about 1M per day, it will take you anywhere from 6 months to 1+ year to afford one of these.

Also, let's be clear that 99 class R/E/M have not been around that long. SE has already set precedent about keeping really really old content relevant, like Sky, Dynamis, Ground Kings. What **** me off the most is that they would violate this trust they have built up with one fell swoop, particularly against their most dedicated customers. It's a very anti-Japanese way of thinking so I'd be surprised if they don't have significant elements in the works to keep the 99 path going to maintain them as the elite class weapons.
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#28 May 03 2013 at 6:51 AM Rating: Decent
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ChaChaJaJa wrote:
I don't think the issue is about being butthurt, I think the issue is that if this isn't adjusted, SE just made 10 years of content obsolete and effectively crashed the economy by making the upgrade items for R/E/M (which account for 75% of the economy) worthless. So I guess maybe you could say I'm butthurt- I'm butthurt that they may have just destroyed the game...

Not even remotely close to true. R/E/M only accounts for 100% of the R/E/M Parts Industry. R/E/M Parts sales may take a hit, but the rest of the economy will find it's own way to stabilize and people will not just "stop" making R/E/M as a whole because there will always be people that just do it for the sake of doing it.

You can't realistically claim that 75% of the economy is worthless because something that accounts for 1-5% of the economy takes a dive.

Additionally, it doesn't make sense to cry about new, more affordable Cell Phones coming out just because they make your old Cell Phones intentional obsolete, even if you paid a lot for that Cell Phone initially. We see this real world analogy just about every-other year. And if anything "breaks" the economy, it's government stepping in and **** with capitalism, preventing growth for the sake of preserving a "cherry picked" avenue to "bail out", which is essentially what happens every time they take old gear and make it "relevant" again.

So far the only sound argument "for" the growth of R/E/M continuing (which S/E already "basically" said they are doing) is "Because S/E". Just because a company has always given "free upgrades" to a product doesn't mean they'll continue to do so in the future. Eventually that company will need to take on either a service-based model or tiered pay-to-upgrade path to survive... and that's basic economics... that you brought into the conversation... so don't cry about it.
#29 May 03 2013 at 7:01 AM Rating: Good
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TheBarrister wrote:
Also let's at least be objective about 3 months of dynamis (+ a little extra help) to get a 75 Relic vs. getting 99 in any R/E/M. Two vastly different ranges of work. Assuming you have a gil stream supply of about 1M per day, it will take you anywhere from 6 months to 1+ year to afford one of these.

Also, let's be clear that 99 class R/E/M have not been around that long. SE has already set precedent about keeping really really old content relevant, like Sky, Dynamis, Ground Kings. What **** me off the most is that they would violate this trust they have built up with one fell swoop, particularly against their most dedicated customers. It's a very anti-Japanese way of thinking so I'd be surprised if they don't have significant elements in the works to keep the 99 path going to maintain them as the elite class weapons.

Oh my god, we get it, you have a 99 R/E/M, you comprise far less than 1% of the total player-base, we are super happy for you.

However, and I hate to be the one to break this to you: You are not special. You are not a beautiful or unique snowflake. You're the same decaying organic matter as everything else.

I'm not a religious person, but when I see posts constantly (and I do mean non-fracking stop) boasting accomplishments, I kind of get why they say pride is a sin.

But hey, somehow all that "I'm great and I should stay great" shouting worked, because at this point I think I'm switching from "I'm fine with it" to "Frack sake, make the damned R/E/M more powerful than ever via an upgrade that locks these annoying people away in dynamis farming new DL only R/E drops for 10 more years trying to complete it so we don't have to listen to them".
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#30 May 03 2013 at 7:03 AM Rating: Excellent
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Re:ChaChaJa
Pretty much that. Also, something that hasn't really come through in the above posts is the magnitude of the change. SE added craftable weapons that were 30-50% higher DPS than the nearest pre-patch alternatives (level 99 RMEs). This is not a small change. Imagine the best DD that you've ever seen. Maybe s/he always parses 25-30% in your groups. Now they parse 30~40%. The gap between these weapons and the next-best alternatives added in the patch (which most people still won't be able to get because it requires alliance clears of hard NMs) is something like 20%. So yes, your current level 90~99 RMEs do have a place in the new hierarchy. That place is called "the bottom."

Now, apart from the fact that the new exclusive/expensive weapons will further stratify the DD hierarchy (if you didn't like RME shouts, you'll hate the new ones), these weapons will dramatically change both the difficulty of old content and the strategies for new content. For instance, Magic, Ranged, and Pet damage sources got very little out of this patch relatively. If Melee damage was beating them before, it's demolishing them now. The proposed magic damage changes would have created an interesting balance of melee/magic damage before. Now they don't even come close to being sufficient.

Additionally, (as mentioned in the post above), there are massive economic ramifications of suddenly dropping the bottom out of the RME item market. SE has used the demand for RMEs to motivate the last two years of content. Abyssea (Empyreans), Voidwatch (Empyreans), Dynamis Reboot (Relics), Salvage Reboot (Mythics), Nyzul Isle Reboot (~Mythics), Einherjar Reboot (Mythics). They were not the only reason to do those events, but they certainly were *a* reason. With demand for Dynamis Currency/HMPs/Alexandrite crashing, what will people farm? With all the lowman content suddenly invalidated, what will players that don't have an 18-man LS do? Furthermore, what does Adoulin offer them at all? Will they just grind Bayld and collect the Traditional Armor sets for funsies? Will they continue to make their Relics, Mythics, and Empyreans that are crushed into oblivion by the new weapons?

I don't think so. I think they'll get bored of doing nothing and try to do the new content in shout group, which will be unsuccessful. Then I think they'll quit.

Edited, May 3rd 2013 9:03am by Byrthnoth
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#31 May 03 2013 at 9:05 AM Rating: Good
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Szabo wrote:
Camate wrote:

Greetings everyone,

I'd like to share a post from Producer Akihiko Matsui in regards to a comment that was picked up from an interview relating to the future of relic, mythic, and empyrean weapons.

Akihiko Matsui wrote:
In regards to this system, the outline has been finished; however, we have yet to test if what we have planned can be realized and if we can secure the proper amount of manpower to continue it. We are at a point in time right now where it's difficult to explain the details, so please allow us to discuss this another day.




FUJILIVES wrote:
[quote=ChaChaJaJa]I don't think the issue is about being butthurt, I think the issue is that if this isn't adjusted, SE just made 10 years of content obsolete and effectively crashed the economy by making the upgrade items for R/E/M (which account for 75% of the economy) worthless. So I guess maybe you could say I'm butthurt- I'm butthurt that they may have just destroyed the game...


Not even remotely close to true. R/E/M only accounts for 100% of the R/E/M Parts Industry. R/E/M Parts sales may take a hit, but the rest of the economy will find it's own way to stabilize and people will not just "stop" making R/E/M as a whole because there will always be people that just do it for the sake of doing it.

You can't realistically claim that 75% of the economy is worthless because something that accounts for 1-5% of the economy takes a dive.

Additionally, it doesn't make sense to cry about new, more affordable Cell Phones coming out just because they make your old Cell Phones intentional obsolete, even if you paid a lot for that Cell Phone initially. We see this real world analogy just about every-other year. And if anything "breaks" the economy, it's government stepping in and **** with capitalism, preventing growth for the sake of preserving a "cherry picked" avenue to "bail out", which is essentially what happens every time they take old gear and make it "relevant" again.

So far the only sound argument "for" the growth of R/E/M continuing (which S/E already "basically" said they are doing) is "Because S/E". Just because a company has always given "free upgrades" to a product doesn't mean they'll continue to do so in the future. Eventually that company will need to take on either a service-based model or tiered pay-to-upgrade path to survive... and that's basic economics... that you brought into the conversation... so don't cry about it.


Byrthnoth basically laid it all out for you, but I will add a few points of my own:

1. Matsui's response which I underlined above does not exactly make me feel confident about their plan for R/M/E nor their ability to implement said plan.
2. If you think that R/M/E items only account for 1-5% of the economy then you are delusional. It's not just about what people are buying, it's about all the people that use those sources of income to fund their consumption of goods. How many people use Dynamis currency or HMP's as a large part of their gil generation? If you take that away as a viable source of income they will be forced to try to earn gil in other markets which will stress those markets etc. It's a trickle down effect. (Byrthnoth basically says this as well).
3. I'm not exactly sure what you are trying to say in your last paragraph, but allow me to fill you in on a little hint: if they try to turn FFXI into a gear treadmill game like WoW, they will kill the game. Their are plenty of other gear treadmill MMO's that are newer, have better graphics, better UI etc. Part of the thing that has people continuing to sub to this game is the very thing they threaten to kill if they head in that direction. People liked this type of character progression. People liked that they had such a variety of content that generates rewards that are still relevant. If they take that away, I believe they will kill the game. Just my opinion, but I know I'm not alone in that sentiment.


Edited, May 3rd 2013 11:06am by ChaChaJaJa
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#32 May 03 2013 at 9:06 AM Rating: Decent
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FUJILIVES wrote:
TheBarrister wrote:
Also let's at least be objective about 3 months of dynamis (+ a little extra help) to get a 75 Relic vs. getting 99 in any R/E/M. Two vastly different ranges of work. Assuming you have a gil stream supply of about 1M per day, it will take you anywhere from 6 months to 1+ year to afford one of these.

Also, let's be clear that 99 class R/E/M have not been around that long. SE has already set precedent about keeping really really old content relevant, like Sky, Dynamis, Ground Kings. What **** me off the most is that they would violate this trust they have built up with one fell swoop, particularly against their most dedicated customers. It's a very anti-Japanese way of thinking so I'd be surprised if they don't have significant elements in the works to keep the 99 path going to maintain them as the elite class weapons.

Oh my god, we get it, you have a 99 R/E/M, you comprise far less than 1% of the total player-base, we are super happy for you.

However, and I hate to be the one to break this to you: You are not special. You are not a beautiful or unique snowflake. You're the same decaying organic matter as everything else.


Strawman. What you are arguing isn't something that's been contested, so you've just responded to a non-issue.

FUJILIVES wrote:

I'm not a religious person, but when I see posts constantly (and I do mean non-fracking stop) boasting accomplishments, I kind of get why they say pride is a sin.


Tell me what's worse, pride in accomplisments (which I haven't been boasting about as you claim, but we've already established that you're not responding to points made, just points you want to respond to), or blatant lack of sympathy for the frustration of others:

FUJILIVES wrote:
Professor Shock Vlorsutes wrote:
FUJILIVES wrote:
I'm fine with this, my relic and empyrean weapons still have their place and I firmly believed people misinterpreted what was said originally anyhow.
People who have a problem with this are whining complainers that need to learn this is an MMO and the game is changing.
They need to change with it.
Edited, Apr 26th 2013 2:30pm by FUJILIVES

Though the game is changing, Square Enix has long held those weapons (Relic and Mythics especially) to sort of be the best of the best, so people can understandably be a bit frustrated when their high tier weapon that they've spent millions of gil (not to mention lots of invested time) on is outdone by these Skirmish weapons/Wildskeeper Reive weapons that you can potentially obtain in little to no time at all.

While I understand the grounds for the whining, I still feel it is unmerited and welcome (any) new changes to a stale game. As I originally stated, "I'm fine with it".
Edited, Apr 26th 2013 8:35pm by FUJILIVES


Also, tell me where were you during the 2003-2011 era when the rate of "new changes" to the game was comparatively non-existent. Did you clamor for Sky, Ground King, Dynamis, and Limbus to be replaced? How about the nearly 2 years of lack of changes to the game that were known as WoTG? That's the argument if you want to respond to something I'm saying.

Edited, May 3rd 2013 11:07am by TheBarrister
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#33 May 03 2013 at 9:07 AM Rating: Good
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FUJILIVES wrote:
Oh my god, we get it, you have a 99 R/E/M, you comprise far less than 1% of the total player-base, we are super happy for you.


Do you really think they're the only ones affected? And even if they were, here's the big question: Why **** off any percentage of your playerbase when there is really no need to? They didn't have to make these ludicrous jumps in weapon power at all. You know how FFXI is. A couple stat points here and there are enough to have people jumping on new content.

All they had to do was produce slightly better gear than we had before and have a new set of trials or quests for people to continue to keep their R/M/E on top of the heap. We didn't need weapons with 2X damage or mobs who can't be killed without them.

Matsui, good intentions or not, tried to fix what really wasn't all that broken. Flawed yes, but not broken. We just wanted new content, not new content that totally negates all that has come before. The stupid thing is, as typically slow as they are with releasing new stuff, it would have made more sense to keep old content relevant than make so much of it worthless in the span of a month.

Edited, May 3rd 2013 11:07am by Camiie
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#34 May 03 2013 at 10:25 AM Rating: Decent
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TheBarrister wrote:
Also, tell me where were you during the 2003-2011 era when the rate of "new changes" to the game was comparatively non-existent. Did you clamor for Sky, Ground King, Dynamis, and Limbus to be replaced? How about the nearly 2 years of lack of changes to the game that were known as WoTG? That's the argument if you want to respond to something I'm saying.


I had quit about one year after our entire linkshell acquired nearly everything sky had to offer. The lack of change in the game is (and should be, in an MMO) more than enough reason to stop paying for a game (not playing, but paying - I still enjoyed the company of old friends, but at some point you need to put a value on your dollar).

I've been an on-again off-again player for many years because of the hills-and-valleys FFXI has had to offer when it comes to interesting new content, and though I am a huge fan of the game (and series in general) I won't throw money at it for the sake of throwing money at it. It is in the game's best interest for everyone to take this approach, as paying to play a game you don't find enjoyable just breeds a less enjoyable game (and a waste of what could otherwise be time spent actually enjoying something).

There's this old movie (I forget exactly what it it's called, I watched it like 15 years ago) where ape-men invade earth and cage up / enslave the humans. In an attempt to monitor the humans and learn what they like, they set one free. The man who was set free thinks he has a chance to escape, so he hides in the dark corners of hallways and despite stores of food being nearby, he opts to kill and eat a rat so the invaders don't catch him stealing their food. The end result is that all the humans are fed rats because the invaders are lead to believe that's what humans want, afterall, when set free, that's what they went for.

What I'm getting at is that MMO's are largely a "lets see what the people like and cater to it" sort of experiment, so when people do these three year crazy-rediculous grinds for items, yes, it's likely that they will allow those items to be upgraded, because they cater to what they see players doing, but they will also introduce more / similar grinding because after-all, that's what people must like! If you want to see change you have to opt to "not" participate in these sort of things. That sometimes means taking a break from the game, choosing to do something else in the game, or playing another game all together.

When I first started this game I was a teenager and I whined about how rediculous it was to do some of the earlier limit break quests... but times have changed and generally speaking you won't really hear me **** about difficulty in the game anymore, because it pretty much has no difficulty. However, you will see me plead for change that I believe will better the game.

As far as feeling sorry for people... I look forward to any moment I get to spend with my wife or dog or friends after work, and any moment I get to spend playing games with those same people, but if someone chooses a path of near-solitude for a tremendous amount of time for the sake of bettering only themselves, then is so prideful that they come in to boast and complain about how much work they did on their own to be better than everyone else... I DO feel sorry for them... but not in the way that you are hoping and pleading for, instead I am sad for you in the sense that I think "wow, that guy's priorities are REALLY messed up... I hope his personal life takes a change for the better".
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#35 May 03 2013 at 10:39 AM Rating: Good
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You activated my RL card!


Okay then. I'm glad we could get that out of the way.
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#36 May 03 2013 at 10:59 AM Rating: Default
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Byrthnoth wrote:
I'm great!

Whatttt? I'll be watching Family Matters tonight in spite of that comment.

Steve Urkel is awesome.

(if you notice I also said I like to play games with them, but I'd never put them through the rediculous grind of helping me get a 99 relic... that's something people really have to set out on their own to accomplish, and lets face it, they are neglecting their friends and family when they do, and if it was "super fun to do", we wouldn't really have people complaining that all that "work" is now irreverent now would we?).

Edited, May 3rd 2013 1:01pm by FUJILIVES
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#37 May 03 2013 at 11:00 AM Rating: Decent
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FUJILIVES wrote:
Byrthnoth wrote:
I'm great!

Whatttt? I'll be watching Family Matters tonight in spite of that comment.

Steve Urkel is awesome.

Game Grumps just mentioned Urkel.

Spooky.
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#38 May 03 2013 at 11:02 AM Rating: Decent
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FUJILIVES wrote:


What I'm getting at is that MMO's are largely a "lets see what the people like and cater to it" sort of experiment, so when people do these three year crazy-rediculous grinds for items, yes, it's likely that they will allow those items to be upgraded, because they cater to what they see players doing, but they will also introduce more / similar grinding because after-all, that's what people must like! If you want to see change you have to opt to "not" participate in these sort of things. That sometimes means taking a break from the game, choosing to do something else in the game, or playing another game all together.



By your own logic then people must want the "crazy-rediculous grind items" otherwise they would be doing what you said, which is playing a different game. Now I understand this isn't what everyone wants, but is it that hard to realize that some people actually play this game because they prefer that type of content to the "gear carousel" that is WoW or the like? People are voting with their subscription money, and from the sounds of it on some other forums, they are going to vote no by quitting if SE moves FFXI towards the carousel model.
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#39 May 03 2013 at 11:22 AM Rating: Good
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FUJILIVES wrote:
if it was "super fun to do", we wouldn't really have people complaining that all that "work" is now irreverent now would we?).


He has a point.

On this... sort of... I wish SE would add something akin to the "visual gear" in EQ2.

Like I love my Tocis (love it!) so while if I got a better body I wouldn't cry about it - I'd like to be able to have that look rather than say thaujamas or whatever dumpy looking things they are handing out in adoulin. At least if you could still wear your cool looking RME weapon it would be better than just sticking it on a mannekin or something.

(Obvs. that's not a solution but wouldn't it be nice to be able to choose what your char looked like? It might also get people doing some events for outclassed gear just cause they like the look of it, which would be good for people who actually needed that gear)

Edited, May 3rd 2013 10:23am by Olorinus
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#40 May 03 2013 at 11:35 AM Rating: Good
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ChaChaJaJa wrote:
I don't think the issue is about being butthurt, I think the issue is that if this isn't adjusted, SE just made 10 years of content obsolete and effectively crashed the economy by making the upgrade items for R/E/M (which account for 75% of the economy) worthless. So I guess maybe you could say I'm butthurt- I'm butthurt that they may have just destroyed the game...


I don't see how they made all the prior content obsolete. People are up in arms over the weapons, not the armor. There are a host of events in the last ten years that are still relevant because the new gear, while nice, does not invalidate all prior armor like the weapons might.
#41 May 03 2013 at 11:52 AM Rating: Decent
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Poltergeist27 wrote:
ChaChaJaJa wrote:
I don't think the issue is about being butthurt, I think the issue is that if this isn't adjusted, SE just made 10 years of content obsolete and effectively crashed the economy by making the upgrade items for R/E/M (which account for 75% of the economy) worthless. So I guess maybe you could say I'm butthurt- I'm butthurt that they may have just destroyed the game...


I don't see how they made all the prior content obsolete. People are up in arms over the weapons, not the armor. There are a host of events in the last ten years that are still relevant because the new gear, while nice, does not invalidate all prior armor like the weapons might.


The amount of man hours spent farming actual gear in the old content is a drop in the bucket compared to the amount of man hours spent farming consumable items like Dynamis Currency and HMP's etc that are used to uprgrade R/M/E. If you make those consumable items irrelevant (by making R/M/E irrelevant) you make that content obsolete. A person who goes to Dynamis to farm currency for gil (which is something a large portion of the playerbase does) does so on a regular basis. A person that goes there to farm a gear drop goes one time. A piece of gear lasts forever. Currency, HMP's etc are constantly being removed from circulation. Gear, if it's even sellable, just bounces around and depreciates as supply increases. My comment is that they just knocked out a leg from under the table before putting in something else to support said table.


P.S. Same thing goes for Voidwatch- good luck filling your Qilin alliance if HMP's sell for 5k each. But I guess it probably won't matter since six people with the new weapons can probably kill him before the adds pop. But wait- why fight Qilin at all if the daggers he drops are garbage.... ICWATUDIDTHAR...

Edited, May 3rd 2013 1:58pm by ChaChaJaJa
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#42 May 03 2013 at 11:53 AM Rating: Good
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Yeah, BST still is going to want Monster Gloves +2 (for example) - nothing in the expansion outdoes force-spawning your pet at level. If I paid more attention/thought about it more, I am sure I could find other examples.

Personally, like most other filthy casuals, this stuff isn't going to change how I play significantly - except for maybe once they adjust skirmish (increasing drops of PI pieces or whatever) and once my friends get around to doing it, I will have the opportunity to get weapons that might let me play a DD without having to do years of boring grinding. I don't necessarily see that as a bad thing.

Or if I play a support job/mage (like I've been doing mostly forever) I might actually get a drop that lets me move outside of that pidgeonhole I've been trapped in because I don't like grinding gil/collecting toenails

If those weapons are super out of reach (though I am not seeing anything to suggest that if my more decently geared friends worked with me we couldn't clear at least skirmish) I'll just derp along doing my thing like I always have.

I gave up farming dynabyss awhile ago because of dropping prices and annoying/aggressive competition, so... if currency drops and people stop farming it so much I might actually consider building an Aegis or Ghorn (both of which are/will be top still at least for awhile) probably not though. I really hate grinding gil/collecting items. I would rather fight drop rates on semi-interesting boss battles than fight boredom.



Edited, May 3rd 2013 10:57am by Olorinus
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#43 May 03 2013 at 12:11 PM Rating: Good
Disclaimer:I just returned to the game after almost two years. My highest job level is 77. No Relic, no Mythic, no Emperor... Empenada... Empywhatever weapons.

(Yeah, I know what you're thinking. "This oughta be good." I'll give you a minute to grab some popcorn.)

Isn't this what other MMORPGs do? I know the big one does. They introduce a new expansion pack, and suddenly, The Experience Formerly Known as "Endgame" isn't. It's there for the eccentric or the nostalgic (in most cases, I assume), but for the most part, it's just legacy content that persists because it'd be more work to remove it than to simply let it stagnate.

FFXI isn't most MMORPGs, and they've done a pretty good job of keeping most old content relevant. From what I can see, the Magian Trials system is the most common way of doing so. Pretty much every sparkly piece of gear you obtained prior to 2009 can get deposited in that Delivery Crate at some point. If it's not relevant now, it was probably something that was never all that relevant in the first place. That's great, but as the game continues to grow, that pattern is going to become less and less sustainable. The development team hasn't been afraid to admit that they're short-handed and their younger brother is getting most of the company resources, so at some point, somebody has to decide between major content updates that render old content obsolete, or minor content updates that are tedious to deploy but continue to evenly support everything. Except Summoner. (That's a joke. Relax.)

Looking upward from the bottom of the latter, with this major paradigm shift, I have no idea what I should be doing as a level. Should I be jumping right into Adoulin and skipping all the legacy content, since the populace doesn't seem to think it's worth it anymore? But it sounds like these new fights are really tough and require some vittles from the previous generations. But nobody wants to do those things anymore because they're worthless. So... Um...

I personally think that letting something be the cream of the crop for a decade (roughly) and then having it replaced in one fell swoop is pretty nasty. If Square had been moving forward in such a way that a New Hotness is introduced every two years that takes roughly a year to complete and replaces your Old and Busted, then this would all be old hat by now. If you're going to let some equipment reign for that long, you had better give yourself some room to grow and make sure those base stats have twenty years worth of wiggle room. Relic weapons were nice, but even before Mythics were released, people were mocking the investment-to-performance ratio of quite a few of them. Now that they've been dethroned, it just makes it even more ridiculous. If Relics and the like were intended to be the ultimate "get", they should have always had the stats that some of these Adoulin weapons were given, and then we'd have plenty of time to build the game upward without worrying about hitting a stats ceiling abruptly.

Edited, May 3rd 2013 2:15pm by ExpressImpress
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#44 May 03 2013 at 12:37 PM Rating: Good
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ChaChaJaJa wrote:

The amount of man hours spent farming actual gear in the old content is a drop in the bucket compared to the amount of man hours spent farming consumable items like Dynamis Currency and HMP's etc that are used to uprgrade R/M/E. If you make those consumable items irrelevant (by making R/M/E irrelevant) you make that content obsolete. A person who goes to Dynamis to farm currency for gil (which is something a large portion of the playerbase does) does so on a regular basis. A person that goes there to farm a gear drop goes one time. A piece of gear lasts forever. Currency, HMP's etc are constantly being removed from circulation. Gear, if it's even sellable, just bounces around and depreciates as supply increases. My comment is that they just knocked out a leg from under the table before putting in something else to support said table.


P.S. Same thing goes for Voidwatch- good luck filling your Qilin alliance if HMP's sell for 5k each. But I guess it probably won't matter since six people with the new weapons can probably kill him before the adds pop. But wait- why fight Qilin at all if the daggers he drops are garbage.... ICWATUDIDTHAR...



You essentially cherry-picked the two mobs/events most tied to R/M/E, Dynamis and Qilin, which I agree will be rendered (partially) obsolete, but there's a lot more from the last 10 years that hasn't been rendered obsolete:

ADL/Dynamis Currency I'll give you, but people will still farm for the Relic +2 Forgotten items etc. and perhaps one or two Arch Bosses (Jeuno/Tav). Some of that armor is still useful with +2'ing and XP trials (particularly that COR piece that increases odds of 1hr reset).

Qilin is dead, but people will still farm VW for glowy bodies, Rubeus gear, Athos gear, Ogier's gear, etc.

People will still farm Neo-Nyzul.

People will still farm Empyrean Armor in Abyssea.

People will still farm Odin v1 for E. Body.

People will still farm Odin v2 for Laeradr gear and the abjurations.

People will still farm Legion for lucrative mats, the abjurations which now that NQ gear can be augmented will be newly sought after, and the few good pieces like Duplus, Wrathwing, Wurrukatte, Esper Earring, etc.

People might still farm PW for Tessera Saio (not 100% sure as I don't play COR).

People will still farm Salvage for the good Armor pieces.

People will still farm Limbus for the good Limbus pieces.

People will still farm Meeble Burrows for the good pieces, and the fact that I believe there is an Umarghk mat used to synth one of the new weapons.




Edited, May 3rd 2013 2:45pm by Poltergeist27
#45 May 03 2013 at 12:39 PM Rating: Good
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ExpressImpress wrote:
Should I be jumping right into Adoulin and skipping all the legacy content, since the populace doesn't seem to think it's worth it anymore?


Yes.

Regardless what Matsui says, the fastest way to get the best gear is simply to grind it. Level a job like Bard so that you don't really need very good gear to be useful in endgame. Farm Plasm when you can, and farm Bayld when you can't. Realistically, there isn't enough time for you to fully gear yourself with old-content melee or mage equipment (as they're suggesting) before Delve gear becomes the new standard. When that happens, you'd still be seen as gimp and wouldn't be invited. Using a job like Bard will let you get started on new-content stuff right away (to the extent that it's possible in pickup groups) and you'll be able to get gear way better than the old stuff way faster than if you try to go by their proposed route.
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#46 May 03 2013 at 12:57 PM Rating: Decent
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Poltergeist27 wrote:
ChaChaJaJa wrote:

The amount of man hours spent farming actual gear in the old content is a drop in the bucket compared to the amount of man hours spent farming consumable items like Dynamis Currency and HMP's etc that are used to uprgrade R/M/E. If you make those consumable items irrelevant (by making R/M/E irrelevant) you make that content obsolete. A person who goes to Dynamis to farm currency for gil (which is something a large portion of the playerbase does) does so on a regular basis. A person that goes there to farm a gear drop goes one time. A piece of gear lasts forever. Currency, HMP's etc are constantly being removed from circulation. Gear, if it's even sellable, just bounces around and depreciates as supply increases. My comment is that they just knocked out a leg from under the table before putting in something else to support said table.


P.S. Same thing goes for Voidwatch- good luck filling your Qilin alliance if HMP's sell for 5k each. But I guess it probably won't matter since six people with the new weapons can probably kill him before the adds pop. But wait- why fight Qilin at all if the daggers he drops are garbage.... ICWATUDIDTHAR...



You essentially cherry-picked the two mobs/events most tied to R/M/E, Dynamis and Qilin, which I agree will be rendered (partially) obsolete, but there's a lot more from the last 10 years that hasn't been rendered obsolete:

ADL/Dynamis Currency I'll give you, but people will still farm for the Relic +2 Forgotten items etc. and perhaps one or two Arch Bosses (Jeuno/Tav). Some of that armor is still useful with +2'ing and XP trials (particularly that COR piece that increases odds of 1hr reset).

Qilin is dead, but people will still farm VW for glowy bodies, Rubeus gear, Athos gear, Ogier's gear, etc.

People will still farm Neo-Nyzul.

People will still farm Empyrean Armor in Abyssea.

People will still farm Odin v1 for E. Body.

People will still farm Odin v2 for Laeradr gear and the abjurations.

People will still farm Legion for lucrative mats, the abjurations which now that NQ gear can be augmented will be newly sought after, and the few good pieces like Duplus, Wrathwing, Wurrukatte, Esper Earring, etc.

People might still farm PW for Tessera Saio (not 100% sure as I don't play COR).

People will still farm Salvage for the good Armor pieces.

People will still farm Limbus for the good Limbus pieces.

People will still farm Meeble Burrows for the good pieces, and the fact that I believe there is an Umarghk mat used to synth one of the new weapons.




Edited, May 3rd 2013 2:45pm by Poltergeist27


My point is they are rendered obsolete economically. If you reread my posts I keep talking about the economic impact of this. When I say this damages the game it's an economic argument. Explain to me what they've added to the game with SoA that replaces the portion of the economy that stands to die with R/M/E? I'm not talking gear, I'm talking CONSUMABLES that people can farm to make gil. I'm saying that a pillar of the economy was just rendered obsolete. The single biggest market in the game was consumable items used to upgrade R/M/E. If all those items that people were farming literally by the hundreds of thousands are no longer worth farming, how do you replace that VOLUME of consumables that's been rendered obsolete? I don't see it. Everyone keeps saying people are butthurt about weapons, but the major concern I see is the long term health of the economy because you can't just knock a leg out from under a table and expect the table to remain stable...
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#47 May 03 2013 at 1:19 PM Rating: Good
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ExpressImpress wrote:
Isn't this what other MMORPGs do? I know the big one does. They introduce a new expansion pack, and suddenly, The Experience Formerly Known as "Endgame" isn't. It's there for the eccentric or the nostalgic (in most cases, I assume), but for the most part, it's just legacy content that persists because it'd be more work to remove it than to simply let it stagnate.

FFXI isn't most MMORPGs
You're right. MMOs do this, but FFXI hasn't. I know people like to say that we should expect things to be outdated because other MMOs do it, but historically, FFXI has been unique in this regard.

Olorinus the Ludicrous wrote:
Like I love my Tocis (love it!) so while if I got a better body I wouldn't cry about it - I'd like to be able to have that look rather than say thaujamas or whatever dumpy looking things they are handing out in adoulin. At least if you could still wear your cool looking RME weapon it would be better than just sticking it on a mannekin or something.
I know you brought this up in another thread (and I responded to it) but how can a Toci's be compared to a 99 RME? We've come to expect gear to be beaten by better gear because SE has offered us replacements since forever. Some things remained the best but some things were replaced. The level cap increase prepared us further, and we became more conditioned to accept and prepare for newer and better gear in the future. However, on the way to 99 cap, RME were dragged along, kept current through Magian Trials. Weapons have always been different and really can't be compared to pieces of gear being outdated.

Edited, May 3rd 2013 9:20am by detlef
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#48 May 03 2013 at 1:59 PM Rating: Decent
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253 posts
ChaChaJaJa wrote:

My point is they are rendered obsolete economically. If you reread my posts I keep talking about the economic impact of this. When I say this damages the game it's an economic argument. Explain to me what they've added to the game with SoA that replaces the portion of the economy that stands to die with R/M/E? I'm not talking gear, I'm talking CONSUMABLES that people can farm to make gil. I'm saying that a pillar of the economy was just rendered obsolete. The single biggest market in the game was consumable items used to upgrade R/M/E. If all those items that people were farming literally by the hundreds of thousands are no longer worth farming, how do you replace that VOLUME of consumables that's been rendered obsolete? I don't see it. Everyone keeps saying people are butthurt about weapons, but the major concern I see is the long term health of the economy because you can't just knock a leg out from under a table and expect the table to remain stable...


If your only point is economic, then of course I'd agree with you. Your original paragraph said:

Quote:
I think the issue is that if this isn't adjusted, SE just made 10 years of content obsolete and effectively crashed the economy by making the upgrade items for R/E/M (which account for 75% of the economy) worthless.


Then your response talked about manhours farming gear vs. farming gil. So I was just replying from a content-level perspective (farming gear). All your other points I agree with.

Edited, May 3rd 2013 4:00pm by Poltergeist27
#49 May 03 2013 at 2:39 PM Rating: Good
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Olorinus the Ludicrous wrote:

Personally, like most other filthy casuals, this stuff isn't going to change how I play significantly - except for maybe once they adjust skirmish (increasing drops of PI pieces or whatever) and once my friends get around to doing it, I will have the opportunity to get weapons that might let me play a DD without having to do years of boring grinding will let me skyrocket to the top of the DD class of weapons for jobs I previously never touched. I'll instantly have a better weapon than any player who played the job prior to April 2013. I don't necessarily see that as a bad thing.


FTFY

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#50 May 03 2013 at 3:21 PM Rating: Good
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yeah, I never touched them because turning my game time into a second job never appealed to me. You're right, I don't have a problem with that. Also, I sincerely doubt I'll be getting the best of the best anytime close to when the hardcore folks do. Why does it bother you that I'd be able to play a job I've been interested in but discouraged from trying because it was gated by 1000 hours of gil grinding?
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#51 May 03 2013 at 3:31 PM Rating: Excellent
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Olorinus the Ludicrous wrote:
yeah, I never touched them because turning my game time into a second job never appealed to me. You're right, I don't have a problem with that. Also, I sincerely doubt I'll be getting the best of the best anytime close to when the hardcore folks do. Why does it bother you that I'd be able to play a job I've been interested in but discouraged from trying because it was gated by 1000 hours of gil grinding?

Here's the problem: If you don't get it when they do, you won't get it. At all.

SE is saying you need to grind the Neo's to get gear to do Delve. Something will come after Delve. So then you will need to grind Delve to do that. Then something will come after that. And so on and so on. Eventually there will be two very distinct tiers of players: The people doing the content and the people doing shouts and failing at getting to the content.

This kind of game development is not sustainable. WoW did it, but then they did it by increasing the level cap.That meant that merely by leveling you could go out, get some green drops that were better than hard fought for gear, but that there was a new tier of elite as well. For this, they are tossing out entire events with the weapons they are invalidating. Dynamis, Eihnerjar, Salvage, Nyzul Isle... In two years who will be doing these? Everyone will be in the new zone grinding the new stuff or the slightly older zone with the slightly older stuff... or you will be stuck, geared decently but not nearly well enough to even be considered a minor threat to the new new monsters...
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