Delve :: World of Warcraft

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#102 Apr 27 2013 at 8:17 AM Rating: Decent

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Viertel wrote:

This is the pure truth in that NNI came after Abyssea (and was designed with having that gear in mind), and when you aren't finish with those areas you flat out weren't ready for NNI.

So what you're saying is. Abyssea came after Relics, Mythics, & Salvage Gear. So Abyssea was designed with having that gear in mind. I was saying this all along. If you don't have a Yagrush whm, get your gimp *** out of Abyssea.

Do you see how asinine this argument is?

Edited, Apr 27th 2013 9:20am by Telaki

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#103 Apr 27 2013 at 12:38 PM Rating: Decent

detlef

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It's a sound argument, but not just because of how gear was chronologically released. Empyrean armor is clearly above anything that came before it. Likewise, Nyzul gear is a step above that. All that people are arguing is that you shouldn't skip Nyzul to do Delve.

Go grind your Nyzul gear and gear yourself. Delve will be there when you are ready to challenge it.

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#104 Apr 27 2013 at 1:18 PM Rating: Excellent

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Are people really saying that the difference between wearing say a Toci's harness VS a Thaumas coat would sink or swim an event? Cause I am not buying it. After a certain point where you have pretty decent gear, I can't see something a bit better being make or break. And if the game is so fine tuned you absolutely need that small percentage of quad attack or whatever to beat the content... well they aren't that good at fine-turning so it will probably be very unpleasant.

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#105 Apr 27 2013 at 1:30 PM Rating: Decent

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Olorinus the Ludicrous wrote:

Are people really saying that the difference between wearing say a Toci's harness VS a Thaumas coat would sink or swim an event? Cause I am not buying it. After a certain point where you have pretty decent gear, I can't see something a bit better being make or break. And if the game is so fine tuned you absolutely need that small percentage of quad attack or whatever to beat the content... well they aren't that good at fine-turning so it will probably be very unpleasant.

You forget the part where there may be 18 people doing a timed event. 1 person with "not optimal" gear can be ok, but the moment you have 18 people running around in the toughest event with "pretty decent" gear as you call it, it will be a problem.

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#106 Apr 27 2013 at 1:40 PM Rating: Decent

detlef

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Olorinus the Ludicrous wrote:

Are people really saying that the difference between wearing say a Toci's harness VS a Thaumas coat would sink or swim an event? Cause I am not buying it. After a certain point where you have pretty decent gear, I can't see something a bit better being make or break. And if the game is so fine tuned you absolutely need that small percentage of quad attack or whatever to beat the content... well they aren't that good at fine-turning so it will probably be very unpleasant.

Of course if you look at one gear slot on one person, it doesn't make a difference. Improving many gear slots makes you a better, more capable player. Then, when you surround yourself with more capable players, the effort people put in becomes much more apparent.

Oh, and I specifically didn't mention VW gear because it's a crapshoot and also generally sidegrade level.

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#107 Apr 27 2013 at 10:10 PM Rating: Good

Raelix

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Fynlar wrote:

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The two objectives that are most time consuming in NNI are order lamps and "kill all" floors. They effectively nerfed the sh*t out of 50% of that.

Again, I don't call a slight reduction in mob levels to be nearly that high of a nerf. If the mobs in HQ Nyzul were higher level than we were to start with, that would be one thing, but they were already weak aside from the NMs.

Already one WS would kill anything that wasn't a target mob, and on a spec targets floor they just have ~2.5x HP. This is coming from running it on DRK though.

Mob stats do change with their levels though, and not every job (meaning 'jobs that aren't WAR or DRK') can cap attack on an Even Match even with food and buffs, ergo while we would be in agreement that this doesn't help seasoned and optimal NNI runners, it does help out the, for lack of a better term because it is indeed the opinion I hold of one-handers in a DD capacity, gimps.

Olorinus the Ludicrous wrote:

Are people really saying that the difference between wearing say a Toci's harness VS a Thaumas coat would sink or swim an event? Cause I am not buying it. After a certain point where you have pretty decent gear, I can't see something a bit better being make or break.

Quite true. FFXI's gear progression is very granular. You aren't changing one piece of gear in your TP set and seeing a 20% increase or even a 2% increase in total damage. Literally the only thing that makes a significant difference is main weapon and what WS it swings (even from a utility standpoint, Multihits or Apoc and the like).

Edited, Apr 27th 2013 9:13pm by Raelix

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#108 Apr 28 2013 at 7:15 AM Rating: Excellent

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Olorinus the Ludicrous wrote:

Are people really saying that the difference between wearing say a Toci's harness VS a Thaumas coat would sink or swim an event? Cause I am not buying it. After a certain point where you have pretty decent gear, I can't see something a bit better being make or break. And if the game is so fine tuned you absolutely need that small percentage of quad attack or whatever to beat the content... well they aren't that good at fine-turning so it will probably be very unpleasant.

I totally agree, but the online forum community consensus seems to be that there are only 2 tiers of gear:

1. Top of the line / Optimal

2. Gimp

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#109 Apr 28 2013 at 11:11 AM Rating: Default

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No, you white knight posters are the ones saying there's that distinction. The people that end up getting top quality gear start out somewhere, it doesn't just drop into their laps. Here, I'll spell it out again:

1. Proper gear sets for use with macro swaps.

2. Special butterfly I'm going to beat the world with one gear set types.

If you fall into category 1 and you still lose more often than you win there's a very good chance that you or some of your friends need to stop the **** riding and level BRD, WHM, SCH, COR, or SMN. It's not all about big numbers.

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#110 Apr 28 2013 at 2:14 PM Rating: Decent

detlef

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Camiie wrote:

Olorinus the Ludicrous wrote:

Are people really saying that the difference between wearing say a Toci's harness VS a Thaumas coat would sink or swim an event? Cause I am not buying it. After a certain point where you have pretty decent gear, I can't see something a bit better being make or break. And if the game is so fine tuned you absolutely need that small percentage of quad attack or whatever to beat the content... well they aren't that good at fine-turning so it will probably be very unpleasant.

I totally agree, but the online forum community consensus seems to be that there are only 2 tiers of gear:

1. Top of the line / Optimal

2. Gimp

That may be what it seems like on forums (people are always different on forums). It's just a front that people put up. In reality there are only a handful of people with perfect gear. Everybody else is just working to get to that point. Every time you improve your gear, you get a little better. 5 more attack here, 2% more double attack there. This piece gives enough store tp to equip a better piece in another slot while maintaining a 5-hit build.

I think Olonirus' example of Toci's and Thaumas is a bit ridiculous. In this game, it's very hard to visualize the impact of anything that isn't incredibly obvious. One piece out of a maximum of 16 slots isn't going to make a visual difference. Taking it further, in an alliance 1 slot out of 288 is going to be even less noticeable. And if you're going to make the further distinction that said piece of gear is going to be the difference between winning and losing, then of course you'd think that gear doesn't make a difference.

If you're going to use that as a reason to avoid improving your gear then you'll never be able to justify any upgrade.

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#111 Apr 28 2013 at 3:25 PM Rating: Excellent

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I don't know too many folks that wouldn't jump at the chance for better gear, but sometimes the second best option is simply the best someone can do. All too often on various forums I see advice to that amounts to, "If you can't get X item, then don't bother leveling Y job or doing Z activity." If that advice is accurate, then something isn't right with the game or with player perceptions. That was the only point I wanted to make. I see that was rather offensive of me, but eh I can't help it sometimes.

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#112 Apr 28 2013 at 4:20 PM Rating: Decent

detlef

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Camiie wrote:

I don't know too many folks that wouldn't jump at the chance for better gear, but sometimes the second best option is simply the best someone can do. All too often on various forums I see advice to that amounts to, "If you can't get X item, then don't bother leveling Y job or doing Z activity." If that advice is accurate, then something isn't right with the game or with player perceptions. That was the only point I wanted to make. I see that was rather offensive of me, but eh I can't help it sometimes.

There is nothing wrong with less that "perfect" gear. Like I said, for 99% of the players out there, you're well short of perfection. We all have to live with not being perfect. Keep in mind that even if you don't have the best gear, you can still gear intelligently. Gear matters, but skill matters too.

At the same time, can't we also accept that there are events where you have to be picky about who you bring? Can't we accept that there are some cases where if you aren't geared up to a certain level, you are not pulling your weight and may be hurting the group's chance of success?

I realize that it's an unpopular opinion here, but that's the only point I want to make.

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#113 Apr 28 2013 at 5:13 PM Rating: Excellent

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In my experience in FFXI, smartly gearing yourself with readily available gear is pretty much good enough. Yes, all the rare stuff you can get with months and years certainly help, but events are essentially never designed around needing them because the difference between the cheap but effective alternatives is never all that huge.

I was a far way from gimp, but my gear was never all that great when I played. Didn't stop me from being a highly desirable teammate in all sorts of stuff.

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#114 Apr 28 2013 at 6:27 PM Rating: Excellent

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There's nothing wrong with having reasonable standards. I'd just like for those who don't accept that there's any space at all between optimal and gimp to understand that there actually is some wiggle room.

I think the real problem is not necessarily with the people at the very top of the knowledge base, it's the ones who think they are hot stuff and really aren't. The ones with more ego than sense. They skim BG or whatever site tickles their fancy, read what the math wizzes have to say about which gear is the most awesome, and then won't accept anything other than that because their ego demands that everyone be just as awesome as they think they are. There may be relatively few who are like this, but they do have an affect on how things are perceived.

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#115 May 01 2013 at 12:55 PM Rating: Excellent

Szabo

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Akihiko Matsui wrote:

With the release of the end of April version update, we've implemented Delve and have completed the battle content that was planned for the launch of Seekers of Adoulin.

I feel that the flow of content that we planned where players would take on higher tiers of content (content level) by progressing in stages is not going as smoothly as we'd like.

Specifically, I would like to adjust the fact that it's difficult to do colonization reives and lair reives in small numbers, as well as the fact that it is difficult to start Skirmish.

For the time being, Delve (the boss battle) has been set as the highest content level.

With this current state, I feel priorities should be placed on implementing and adjusting content for low-man or soloing more than adding further higher tier content, and I would like to work hard while heading in this direction so that a larger amount of players can enjoy the game.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/33077-I-feel-like-Delve-just-made-90-of-the-Adoulin-content-irrelevant?p=427154#post427154

Edited, May 1st 2013 3:02pm by Szabo

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#116 May 01 2013 at 1:00 PM Rating: Good

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Changes to accessing skirmish are more than welcome.

Delve isn't terrible since you only need to kill select NMs then farm points for everything else. This should be able to lead players to the point of then completing delve NMs, but I guess SE doesn't want players going from gimp to pimp just through a single event.

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#117 rdmcandie, Posted: May 01 2013 at 3:31 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Oh come on leveling 15 jobs to 99 and gearing them is as hardcore as it gets. Even if they weren't "elite".

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#118 May 01 2013 at 3:42 PM Rating: Excellent

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rdmcandie wrote:

The only difference between casual and hardcore is time. The only difference between Elite and Gimp is skill level/gearing sense.

But then where does attitude come in?

I've tried for years to come up with a good definition of to fit hardcore and casual players, but it always seems to end up as "If 3 of the following 5 options describes you, then you're hardcore".

I say this because I consider myself closer to hardcore than casual, but I only put in ~10 hours a week, occasionally more. I place myself closer to hardcore due to my high expectations of myself and others in game.

Quote:

Oh ya and I was going to ask a question but got side tracked.

Are those new weapons real??? (I imagine they come from this event given their stats) or Did SE mess up? All the gear numbers seem kinda high.

Weapons are real. We still don't really have a clear idea of what SE has planned for the future of FFXI, but given these new weapons and the ones added through Skirmish, they plan on making gear a much more relevant feature of FFXI.

So far, the super high damage weapons are crafted from items only dropped from the uber NMs of Delve. There are also another set of weapons with lower, but still high, damage. These are dropped from the lesser NMs of Delve. Even if you don't get the drop from the NM, once you've killed it, you're able to farm points to buy and upgrade these weapons. These are supposed to be stepping stones allowing us to clear Delve NMs so we can obtain the super high damage weapons.

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#119 May 02 2013 at 5:22 AM Rating: Decent

Pawkeshup

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A hardcore player is the type that will decide to save for Umbral marrow versus accepting a lesser weapon. A hardcore player is the one that will spend hours grinding a craft simply to make money to fund all +1 gear they can buy. A hardcore player will repeat content until they get that one sidegrade WS piece because of the .1% difference it will make. A hardcore player will make time, schedule their day around their raids and runs. A hardcore player will try to form a clique of players as soon as they can, or even dual/multi-box in order to get what they want. A hardcore player will scour forums or even do their own testing to find the absolute best gearset for their job. A hardcore player will often download Windower just so they can swap even more gear faster so they can deal more damage/cure more HP than having to deal with the integrated macro system.

A casual player will gear what they can get, and will simply not try for the hardest path. They will settle for not being the elite of the elite. The casual player will normally keep their regular hours or play whenever they feel like. They will raid if they can, get what they can, but likely will not be that guy in Jeuno shouting for three days straight running VW trying for XX drop. A casual player may get a secondary account, but will more than likely accept that certain gear will come if they get the shot. A casual will sometimes look up their gear and make sure it's not too bad, but otherwise will not obsess over it. They might have a macro swap or two but never tons.

Most players fall somewhere between the two extremes.

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Olorinus the Ludicrous wrote:

The idea of old school is way more interesting than the reality

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#120 rdmcandie, Posted: May 02 2013 at 11:23 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Perfect thanks. Are these events casual based, in the sense I don't need to play everyday to see progression? Can I take 5 or so other people and have a legitimate chance at moving through content? Sorry I have actually not followed any action on this game since well I don't even remember. Last time I logged in it was for the Christmas thing.

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#121 May 02 2013 at 11:36 AM Rating: Excellent

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rdmcandie wrote:

Quote:

Oh ya and I was going to ask a question but got side tracked.

Are those new weapons real??? (I imagine they come from this event given their stats) or Did SE mess up? All the gear numbers seem kinda high.

Weapons are real. We still don't really have a clear idea of what SE has planned for the future of FFXI, but given these new weapons and the ones added through Skirmish, they plan on making gear a much more relevant feature of FFXI.

So far, the super high damage weapons are crafted from items only dropped from the uber NMs of Delve. There are also another set of weapons with lower, but still high, damage. These are dropped from the lesser NMs of Delve. Even if you don't get the drop from the NM, once you've killed it, you're able to farm points to buy and upgrade these weapons. These are supposed to be stepping stones allowing us to clear Delve NMs so we can obtain the super high damage weapons.

Perfect thanks. Are these events casual based, in the sense I don't need to play everyday to see progression? Can I take 5 or so other people and have a legitimate chance at moving through content? Sorry I have actually not followed any action on this game since well I don't even remember. Last time I logged in it was for the Christmas thing.

Currently, the progression that SE has laid out is as follows:

NNI -> Skirmish -> Wildskeeper -> Delve

If you have a static group of 6, NNI poses no real challenge.
Skirmish is easy for a group of 6, but accessing it is incredibly difficult right now. An approach opposite of Voidwatch was taken- low drop rates on pop items, high drop rate on rewards.
Wildskeepers need large groups of people and the cost to access is not low, but this is very pickup group friendly.
Delve is the most difficult one to evaluate. It's easy to access, but incredibly difficult right now, most requiring groups of 18. Once people are better equipped, this may become easier, but I don't see group size decreasing.

The delve system is probably the best one SE has ever created however. Killing NMs will reward perma-KIs, which give you access to buy items dropped by several delve NMs using points. The points can be farmed solo or in a group of any size, but since points are not split, larger groups reap bigger rewards. As far as I am aware, all items dropped in Delve can be obtained through points.

Edited, May 2nd 2013 12:37pm by xypin

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#122 May 02 2013 at 11:50 AM Rating: Excellent

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You and your other people would need to be decently to very well geared in order to be able to see any real progress with Delve. The outside Notorious Monsters, which unlock gear you can purchase from the one NPC in Western Adoulin (as well as preventing them from spawning inside Delve when you go), are extremely powerful. The middle tier Chapuli in Ceizak, for example, is so extremely evasive that with a very good Acc set, Madrigals, and Diamond Storm on it, two Amano Sams had nearly floored accuracy. Likewise, magic damage on it took a quick nose dive as the fight dragged on, and its attack power skyrocketed.

I wish I could say that the Chapuli is unique in terms of difficulty, but having fought four other of the outside Delve NMs, I'd say they're all similarly difficult in their own way.

You could go in with a regular party and farm the fodder monsters in Delve for plasms, but without the KI from the NMs, you can't actually use them to purchase equipment.

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#123 May 02 2013 at 11:51 AM Rating: Decent

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DD/thf is making its return!

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#124 May 02 2013 at 12:53 PM Rating: Excellent

Szabo

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Ryota Iwagami wrote:

Long Holding Times for Delve NMs

Delve lead Ryota Iwagami here.

Thanks so much for playing the Delve content. By letting us know your thoughts on the good (and bad) aspects, and the points that we were almost able to nail, it will go a long way for future adjustments and content, so please keep the comments coming.

We would like to make adjustments to the Delve monsters that are spawned in the field areas, specifically in regards to long holding time, but we would like to hear everyone's thoughts on this first. At the current point in time I'd personally like to make adjustments if possible, but that is not to say that we will definitely force this through. It would really help out if you could let us know your opinions along with your feelings on the matter.

Now then, onto the matter at hand.

The proposed adjustment we would like to perform is to set the maximum battle time for fighting Delve NMs in the field to 45 minutes.

The premise of fighting these Delve monsters is that you have prepared your equipment sufficiently, and as such, they have been made so you can defeat them in 15 minutes. With that said, if you are unable to defeat the monster in 15 minutes that means that either you might not have been properly prepared or that your strategy might be a bit off, so the monster powers up as a means to counter congestion (Rage or hyper-mode, as they say.). If you are feeling a spike in the monster's evasion and attack power, more than likely this is the reason. I'd like to apologize for there being no way to determine if the higher evasion and defense is part of the monster's normal behavior or not due to the fact that there is no log message when the monsters rages. As for the enhancements related to their normal behavior, by employing the proper strategy you can mitigate this, lowering their evasion or lowering their defense, so if you feel they've become stronger before time runs out, please try out various strategies and I think you'll notice some changes.

Currently, we are aware that even after these monsters have become enraged, they are being defeated by battling with them for very long periods of time. This means that the feature for countering congestion is not working properly, and as such we would like to make adjustments to this aspect. I understand that players who were unable to defeat these monsters within the set time but were able to defeat them over the course of a long period of time will no longer be able to do this. Due to the fact that this adjustment could make conditions poor for players who challenge this content later, I would like to hear everyone's opinion and base the decision off of that.

Please let me know which of the following options you prefer:

1. There may be congestion, but keep it as it is now
It'll be hard to tell how long it will take until it's your turn to fight, but you'll be able to defeat the monster most likely even if it takes time.
2. Set a time limit to counter congestion
It'll be easier to know when it's your turn to fight, but you'll no longer be able to defeat the monster spending the amount of time that players are currently.
3. Set the time limit to 20 minutes and make it so the monsters do not go hyper
It will be extremely easy to know when it's your turn to fight, but the time limit is stricter than option 2. However, the monster's behavior will be easy to understand.

I would really like to hear the opinions from players who have yet to take on this content and from those who have tried it out but were unsuccessful. Once you start to understand the monster's special traits and have supplemental strategy information I believe the story will change; however, during battles that take a long time it's difficult to confirm strategic elements due to the fact that the monsterâ€™s basic parameters increase so much. With that said I would really appreciate it if you would allow us to put a time limit on these battles.

If we decide to make these adjustments, we are planning to perform them around 5/10, so while it's only a short amount of time for feedback we'd appreciate it if you could post your comments by 5/7. Whether we decide to make this adjustment or not, I will be sure to post our conclusion.

Thank you very much.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/33165-Long-Holding-Times-for-Delve-NMs?p=428075#post428075

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#125 May 02 2013 at 1:29 PM Rating: Excellent

Szabo

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Ryota Iwagami wrote:

Iwagami here. Thanks for all the feedback.

I've read all of your feedback up until now.
While it will be difficult to address every single point, I'd like to respond to a couple of them with my thoughts.

Increasing the amount of "???" points

I actually looked into this myself; however, there is a high possibility that large battle condition differences would arise between the areas where the same monster is spawned, so I thought this was difficult to accomplish. For example, the below are some differences in battle conditions that could arise:

â€¢ Easier to access some ??? points over others
â€¢ ??? areas with no aggressive monsters in the vicinity
â€¢ Closer to walls

With these differences it would cause players to utilize the most advantageous spawning location. For Voidwatch, your are under the confrontation status and we worked hard to find areas that were exactly the same for each spawn point, and set up three of them. While it might be possible to say that this isn't the case, there is a chance that we use these locations for other content as well, so we'd appreciate it if you could forgive us for not being able to add additional "???" points for now. We'd like everyone to enjoy this content turn by turn.

It's tough to know if our strategy is working. Please introduce clear messages.

First, as some additional information on this content, there are no random weaknesses where the WS or magic spells change like Voidwatch for Delve to show your strategy is accurate. To give a better idea, it's probably close to the way that defense is lowered while under the effect of Dia. Of course it's not limited to certain magic like Dia only, but for example, by doing XX the damage reduction will decrease by 1% or evasion will be reduced by 10. I'd really like to give a clear example, but it would be too obvious, so please try out a variety of things. I am personally interested in what strategies everyone is using, and have been concealing myself near areas where these battles are taking place as well as reading everyone's blogs. I'm happy to see that monster strategies are gradually being figured out. I'd really be glad if you could share you information and let people know your experience with this content.

Preparations (equipment)

The Delve monsters have been arranged in different tiers of content levels.

Quote:

Upper tier: Boss monster
Balance has been set so that it can be fought without using the items that bosses drop.

Middle tier: Shard IV and V NMs
Balance has been set with the idea that enhanced items from shards I-III will be used.

Lower tier: Share I-III NMs
Balance has been set so that they can be fought without Delve equipment.

If you skip obtaining equipment from the lower tier monsters and dash right into the middle tier, it will be a really big challenge because the difference in level is so large. By prepping your fire power gradually starting on the lower tier monsters, you'll be able to do better. If you feel that even the lower tier monsters are too difficult, it would be best to gather equipment from wildskeeper reives, skirmish, salvage II, and other content. While I understand that some of you may not want to struggle to gather equipment, please understand that the challenge will be extremely hard if you don't.

After reading all of the comments up until now, I've discussed with the rest of the development team and came up with a third option. Please let us know your opinions on this.

â€¢ Option 3: Set the time limit to 20 minutes and make it so the monsters do not go hyper
It will be extremely easy to know when it's your turn to fight, but the time limit is stricter than option 2. However, the monster's behavior will be easy to understand.

(*Please note that this option was added to the OP after the fact.)

This will make it so the time is reduced by 25 minutes for those that can withstand the monsterâ€™s hyper mode, but what do you think? I believe it would be too much of a change to keep monsters from going hyper for 30 minutes, so I propose limiting it to 20 minutes. If you would like to fight for longer than 30 minutes, we would like you to fight in the fracture underground.

Thank you very much.

PS:
For those leaving feedback, it'd help out a lot if you write about the type of monster and other details when commenting on certain aspects. The situation will be a bit different depending on if you are saying you are unable to attack the Chapuli NM or if you are unable to attack the Twitherym NM, for example. The special traits for each of these NMs are very different, so I think this will make it easier for you all to discuss as well.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/33165-Long-Holding-Times-for-Delve-NMs?p=428087#post428087

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#126 May 02 2013 at 1:29 PM Rating: Default

TheBarrister

4,864 posts

Professor Shock Vlorsutes wrote:

You and your other people would need to be decently to very well geared in order to be able to see any real progress with Delve. The outside Notorious Monsters, which unlock gear you can purchase from the one NPC in Western Adoulin (as well as preventing them from spawning inside Delve when you go), are extremely powerful. The middle tier Chapuli in Ceizak, for example, is so extremely evasive that with a very good Acc set, Madrigals, and Diamond Storm on it, two Amano Sams had nearly floored accuracy. Likewise, magic damage on it took a quick nose dive as the fight dragged on, and its attack power skyrocketed.

I wish I could say that the Chapuli is unique in terms of difficulty, but having fought four other of the outside Delve NMs, I'd say they're all similarly difficult in their own way.

You could go in with a regular party and farm the fodder monsters in Delve for plasms, but without the KI from the NMs, you can't actually use them to purchase equipment.

I think this is encouraging but I would not be surprised that the same people rejoicing R/M/E got outclassed now get angry that the content from which the new weapons comes from is so difficult. Inb4 "time sinks".

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Carbuncle

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