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Your opinion on Haste II / New MarchFollow

#1 Nov 06 2012 at 1:23 PM Rating: Excellent
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So today Camate gave us feedback from the devs on suggestions for BRD and RDM below:

Camate wrote:

Greetings everyone!

I have a couple responses from the development team in regards to your feedback

Quote:
I think a spell like Regain. 10 ticks w/ max enhancing for rdm would do wonders.


This might be possible, but in order to avoid another situation like Embrava it would require some thinking to implement it properly. While nothing has been decided as of yet, we’d like to add Haste II in this case.

Quote:
At the very least, Bard needs another tier of March and a Regain song.


We are planning to add a higher tier March in the future. However, this is a ways off, and this would be a song that not everyone would be able to get.

As for a Regain song, we do not have any plans of implementing one.


http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/28391-Buff-Other-Support-jobs?p=376102#post376102

Personally I don't like the sound the of how the new tier of march will be handled kinda like Meteor and Arise was handled.
#2 Nov 06 2012 at 1:44 PM Rating: Good
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I guess that's another job i can no longer use then... -_-
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"Can i join your party for Voidwatch/Legion/Engame?"

"Do you have the new march?"

"No..."

"Then no..."


I'd REALLY hate it if they made it something exclusive to only a select elite few.
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#3 Nov 06 2012 at 2:10 PM Rating: Good
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Well, my usual take on RDM and Haste II still applies: As a standalone spell, no thanks. I'd rather stronger synergy between its hybrid aspects that'd allow current Haste to get buffed to a Haste II equivalent with the RDM actively maintaining that potency through activity. That way, if you REALLY want it, you can't really have the job sitting outside the party playing buffbot to an entire alliance.

March III is fine. My only concern would be partial trivialization of Haste spells when you stack March II/III. If you figure III is 15% with II being 12%, Haste II at a possible 20% wouldn't matter since double marches wouldn't need full potency to hit magic cap, more than enough with current Haste spell.

Otherwise, I have no doubt my opinion on Haste II will spawn some disagreement due to the trap of desirability I see others express when it came to Temper, too. Sure, great buff for melee if you could cast it on others, but even prior to RDM's decline in popularity, I knew plenty of people who had the job leveled (and wanted gear for it), but never actually wanted to play it in party settings due to how fantastically dull and tedious it was. In turn, you'll have people who will want a RDM around, but never want to be it themselves between a lack of fun and glory going more to the DD-types. Those that did get suckered into the role usually got stuck there. So, without the process of application of being tolerable without getting fancy (via native AoE or sphere-ing from the RDM), just repeating the mistakes of the past is something I don't want to see happen.

Edited, Nov 6th 2012 3:12pm by Seriha
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#4 Nov 06 2012 at 3:01 PM Rating: Good
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The reason Meteor for BLM is acceptable as a "trophy" spell is because it doesn't really matter to the functionality of the BLM.

March III, on the other hand, would quickly become the single most cast spell for a bard. Limiting it via a ridiculously low drop rate would be cruel to those of us who are no longer in HNMs and would have to buy it off the AH...
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#5 Nov 06 2012 at 3:27 PM Rating: Good
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yeah making march 3 like arise and meteor would really suck. Haven't they noticed that unlike BLM and WHM, BRD is not a super popular job? Really I don't like these super duper hella rare spells to begin with, but to do it with a spell that would esentially be EXPECTED and DEMANDED is ridiculous. It's bad enough brd has one of the WORST empys to get.
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#6 Nov 06 2012 at 4:32 PM Rating: Excellent
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Olorinus wrote:
yeah making march 3 like arise and meteor would really suck. Haven't they noticed that unlike BLM and WHM, BRD is not a super popular job? Really I don't like these super duper hella rare spells to begin with, but to do it with a spell that would esentially be EXPECTED and DEMANDED is ridiculous. It's bad enough brd has one of the WORST empys to get.


Ugh. 34 more colorless souls to go here. I was third in line for Apamadaks before my social shell decided to end Abyssea over the weekend. (A handful of us are going to try to low man the rest of our empys outside of the shell. Including the others who need Apamadak stuff. Smiley: lol )
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#7 Nov 06 2012 at 4:50 PM Rating: Excellent
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this would be a song that not everyone would be able to get.


Not this **** again
#9 Nov 06 2012 at 5:32 PM Rating: Default
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KojiroSoma wrote:

I'd REALLY hate it if they made it something exclusive to only a select elite few.


You're right. They should just dbox it to people so in 1 day we can go back to the situation we're in today.

I forgot, on =10, elite = bad.
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#10 Nov 06 2012 at 5:38 PM Rating: Excellent
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I eagerly await the day where melee JAs are locked behind rare HNM drops.
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#11 Nov 07 2012 at 8:41 AM Rating: Default
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Seriha wrote:
I eagerly await the day where melee JAs are locked behind rare HNM drops.


Analogy would like a word with you. It's carrying Ebody and Neptunal legs and Head abjurations in it's left pockets.

It feels really left out these days since rare exclusivity was it's game day face from 2002-2010.


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#12 Nov 07 2012 at 8:49 AM Rating: Excellent
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TheBarrister wrote:
Seriha wrote:
I eagerly await the day where melee JAs are locked behind rare HNM drops.


Analogy would like a word with you. It's carrying Ebody and Neptunal legs and Head abjurations in it's left pockets.

It feels really left out these days since rare exclusivity was it's game day face from 2002-2010.





Actually her analogy is spot on. Magic spells are to mage jobs what job abilities and weapon skills are to melee jobs.

The better argument for you to use would be the relic / emp weapon skills as those aren't purchasable from the AH.
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#13 Nov 07 2012 at 8:54 AM Rating: Excellent
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to balance out Haste II, it will be self cast only.
#14 Nov 07 2012 at 10:26 AM Rating: Good
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and RDM still wasn't desired for anything....

Stop piling crap on top of broken mechanics.
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#15 Nov 07 2012 at 10:57 AM Rating: Default
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saevellakshmi wrote:
TheBarrister wrote:
Seriha wrote:
I eagerly await the day where melee JAs are locked behind rare HNM drops.


Analogy would like a word with you. It's carrying Ebody and Neptunal legs and Head abjurations in it's left pockets.

It feels really left out these days since rare exclusivity was it's game day face from 2002-2010.





Actually her analogy is spot on. Magic spells are to mage jobs what job abilities and weapon skills are to melee jobs.

The better argument for you to use would be the relic / emp weapon skills as those aren't purchasable from the AH.


Ok good, there is a better argument. The fact that you have to pay more money for doing part of your job better (or at all) is not new to me. You career players should see this as something that differentiates you from "hay guyz I just got back into this game and luved RDM, can I take it to 99 tomorrow, oh goodie yes I can and immediatley start contributing as well as Rdmcandie/Seriha/<insert person who actually is good at and loves RDM"".

In other words you should agree that differentiation is good. You might not agree that doing so by rareness through expense, but that is where the onus is on you to suggest a better way to make it not immediately available to all players. For example, maybe an Inside the Belly type quest where you have to go enfeeble and survive by skill through 1,000 battles.

Will this make RDM more desired and useful? Dunno. Seems like anytime we find content that is difficult, an optimal solution is found, and that gets used, and then if some jobs don't like it they complain that there is "abuse" because their job isn't part of the optimal solution, so our nice things get taken away. If RDM happens to be part of that optimal solution, great by me. I have a 99 RDM character. If not, well it will probably be nerfed anyways due to complainers in the future who feel left out.
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#16 Nov 07 2012 at 11:39 AM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
Will this make RDM more desired and useful? Dunno. Seems like anytime we find content that is difficult, an optimal solution is found, and that gets used, and then if some jobs don't like it they complain that there is "abuse" because their job isn't part of the optimal solution, so our nice things get taken away. If RDM happens to be part of that optimal solution, great by me. I have a 99 RDM character. If not, well it will probably be nerfed anyways due to complainers in the future who feel left out.


The problem presently is not overly job design, job ability, or content difficulty. Optimal is applicable in the minority of group encounters, and really only applies currently to a handful of events. I would say presently NNI is the forerunner there. But if you look at events such as Abyssea, or Voidwatch, they are by design limiting in their involvement. RDM for example is simply not needed in either event because it offers nothing that can be perceived as required. Voidwatch in particular is very unfriendly by design especially to RDM.

This is why I say the mechanics need to be looked at, and not just the event mechanics such as the proc systems of Abyssea VW and even Dynamis. But the systems that got lost in the move to a 99 cap. Specifically for RDM the enhancing and enfeebling skill systems that do not really benefit having higher skill than other jobs. WHM and BLM are landing enfeebles as well as RDM in nearly all cases, and the jump to T2 enfeebles is hardly worth writing home about. The fact that through subbing RDM any job with native MP is essentially going to be as effective as RDM in a buffing/support role also hinders the jobs requirement, and more over the fact that WHM over shadows it in terms of party buff utility, despite having weaker Skill levels is just another dagger in the back.

Simply adding more things on top of broken mechanics does not fix the jobs, it does not make them more desired or even required. What needs to happen is SE needs to address the fundamental flaws within the mechanics of the game. They did this somewhat with Healing by ensuring native healers will always be able to push higher numbers based on their skill levels than those who do not have such skills (such as SMN/RDM, or BLM/RDM or what have you.) They need to do so similarly for Enhancing and Enfeebling magics, RDM should be capping these types of spells higher than other jobs, not sharing the same caps as jobs with much less skill than them. RDM should be landing stronger Paralyze I than a WHM, and it should be landing stronger Hastes than a /RDM a /WHM or a WHM. The skill mechanics need to reflect the differences between the jobs, more so than they do now. Otherwise certain jobs, such as RDM in particular will never be seen as worthwhile for anything but a subjob option.

As for Haste 2, it is hardly a requisite, unless of course SE is going to be altering the caps for haste, which again ties into my distaste with their approach to the mechanics of the game.
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#17 Nov 07 2012 at 11:57 AM Rating: Excellent
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Eh, I don't mind somethings being rare... but I don't want to see BRD become a job that only uber-hardcore players are invited to play. Frankly, there is already more than enough stuff that is hardcore-only. BLM and WHM survived thier super-rare spells because the jobs are SO-NEEDED people aren't about to get uber-picky about them, but opportunities to play BRD are already limited - so locking most of the potential of the job behind

a) a super hard to get super-weapon (no other mage job needs a super-weapon to perform in the top tier)

b) an expensive/impossible to get spell

is a real kick to the teeth.

I understand people want to have things to attain, but I see that there is a lot of super difficult to get stuff in the game already. And when it gets to the point that most jobs are "locked" for casual players to use in mid-tier endgame content, it really destroys -my- will to play.

And I know the "hardcore" don't seem to realize that players like me, who only have say 10-15 hours a week to play are actually the ones carrying the game financially - but when a game starts locking the majority of their players out of the majority of content - it is going down a road to financial ruin. This isn't 2004 anymore. Players want to be able to play the jobs they enjoy and make progress in the game in a reasonable fashion...

Yet, even for middle tier/low upper tier voidwatch stuff a normal, casual, non-super-weapon player can't get expected to get invited on:

pup
rdm
pld
drk
war
cor
mnk
bst

prolly some other job I am forgetting about - but already you're shut out on a ton of jobs either because they aren't seen as useful (rdm/bst/pup - sometimes PLD) or because you are expected to have a hardcore weapon to participate.

And this is just voidwatch, which I see as content that was actually meant to be fairly casual friendly. Nevermind the rest of real endgame (NNI, N. Ein, Legion)

It's a little stupid to expect 1/2 to 3/4 of the player to only do outdated content and pay full price for it while being sneered at, no less.

Edited, Nov 7th 2012 10:01am by Olorinus
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#18 Nov 07 2012 at 1:24 PM Rating: Default
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Olorinus wrote:
Eh, I don't mind somethings being rare... but I don't want to see BRD become a job that only uber-hardcore players are invited to play.
News flash: It already is. If you are in a serious linkshell that does harder content, you should be expected to be able to give 3 or 4 songs. That's the minimum investment you'd need to have in the job in order to justify your alliance spot. That's the result of making the harp so good.

Edit: If you are talking strictly about pick-up voidwatch then that's different because people will take whatever they can get and the standards are incredibly low.

Edited, Nov 7th 2012 9:26am by detlef
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#19 Nov 07 2012 at 2:20 PM Rating: Excellent
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TheBarrister wrote:
KojiroSoma wrote:

I'd REALLY hate it if they made it something exclusive to only a select elite few.


You're right. They should just dbox it to people so in 1 day we can go back to the situation we're in today.

I forgot, on =10, elite = bad.


Not this again. There is such a thing as a middle ground. There's lots of numbers between 0 and 10 million. There's more ways to handle distribution than delivery box and 18 people fighting over a 6% drop. Why do things have to be one extreme or the other?

I'm ok with SE putting in stuff for the elite people to chase after, but I just don't agree with spells being among that stuff.
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#20 Nov 07 2012 at 2:24 PM Rating: Decent
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detlef wrote:

Edit: If you are talking strictly about pick-up voidwatch then that's different because people will take whatever they can get and the standards are incredibly low.


Not according to Olorinus they aren't:

Olorinus wrote:

Yet, even for middle tier/low upper tier voidwatch stuff a normal, casual, non-super-weapon player can't get expected to get invited on:
pup
rdm
pld
drk
war
cor
mnk
bst


I tend to agree more with you detlef. People would take whatever they can get.
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#21 Nov 07 2012 at 3:23 PM Rating: Excellent
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So much wrong being read. So much.

First off, you can't correlate spells to prestige WS. I know it's easy to do such because they're not native, but these technically aren't locked behind the same concept of rarity, but tedium. As long as you do at least 30 Briarius, you're like to get 50 helms. Do 50 Prov Watchers? You may never see Arise or Meteor.

Second is the fact that mages have always had to double dip into their funds for both spells and gear while melee just had focus on gear. I probably paid about 20m for my HQ staff set back in the day, and I only came about that through a nice streak crafting blood cuisses. Then you'd have people charging like 3m+ for Raise III or wanting an arm and a leg for other things like Phalanx or other BC only drops. Yes, SE was ******** mages through rarity even back then. They started at it again for the 95+ game.

Third, a WAR can still be a WAR without Ukkos or even Upheaval. The game progressively rewards the player with skill points that unlock things like Raging Rush and Rampage that certainly weren't bad WS in their times. There is no such equivalency for mages. There is no auto-cast function leaving them useful between castings. ****, I'm the ******* poster child of trying to get mage melee brought up to a more acceptable level because the community otherwise has a **** fit when they do anything other than cast their spells. Plus the prestige weapons do **** all for actual mage progression, so it's not like that side of the game is designed fairly, either.

There are other nagging features like MP management that warrant a nod, but really, the whole, "Woe is me elite melee!" insinuation is a ******* farce at best. Mage classes can be annoying and tedious enough to play as is. There's a reason why support classes always seem to be in high demand. Burning out the few people who would take on those mantles for some faux sense of superiority is not healthy for the game. You want distinction? That's cool. Lemme kill Bri 30+ times again Enraep for my RDM. Toss enough reasonable challenges around like that and you'll eventually start distinguishing the casuals from the dedicated, but being casual doesn't mean you're not dedicated. They'll just have one or two jobs in prime condition compared to someone else's half dozen. And if that STILL bothers you, unbunch those panties and stop worrying so much about people you and your elite caste would never want to play with anyway. Christ, just seeing someone demand the Emp horn before they can play with you makes me wanna barf. I'm sure you'd be jumping hand over fist to help them get that.
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#22 Nov 07 2012 at 3:52 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
to balance out Haste II, it will be self cast only.


Don't you even joke about **** like that, man. You know they'd do it.
#23 Nov 07 2012 at 3:56 PM Rating: Excellent
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TheBarrister wrote:

I tend to agree more with you detlef. People would take whatever they can get.


I purposely didn't put brd in that list because in my experience, people don't expect an empy bard in pick up (I don't really know because outside of 1 kalustrax I've never gone above Jeuno T3 with BRD). But their shouts of R/M/E DD do suggest they expect emps/relics for other jobs.

And yes, I am aware with the might of the empy harp that for elite players to take me seriously I would need to be a 3 song brd (at least). I've accepted that I'll probably never be that.

That said, I'd be happy to do it, but it isn't exactly something a person can solo. So, I live with the fact that it just isn't going to happen.

That doesn't mean I want to be rendered even more gimp because SE seems to think that the game just isn't fun unless half the playerbase feels embarrassed about lacking key abilities for the jobs they like to play.

And Seriha is right to note that most people don't even WANT to play support. Locking support jobs behind walls of hardcoreness is nuts. Mage jobs used to be good starter jobs for people who wanted to work on aquiring key gear. With the direction things are going I feel like before long the only thing left for casuals to do will be to solo on BST.

Edited, Nov 7th 2012 1:59pm by Olorinus
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#24 Nov 07 2012 at 4:12 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
That said, I'd be happy to do it, but it isn't exactly something a person can solo. So, I live with the fact that it just isn't going to happen.


This is pretty much the root of my barf jab and an indirect assertion of the mentality of most hardcore linkshells/guilds/whatever a given game calls a group of players: They'll merrily munch up the best geared players to suit their own agenda, usually poaching people from other progressive groups, but outright refuse to take more pro-active steps in getting other individuals up to their standard. It's basically the gaming equivalent of job offers where an employer only wants people with experience, but someone interested/capable can't get experience without being hired.
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#25TheBarrister, Posted: Nov 07 2012 at 4:22 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) If you're saying a WAR can still contribute without Ukkos, then a WHM and BLM can still contribute without Arise and Meteor, respectively, even though those spells are EZ mode for any 99 player to farm enough gil for.
#26 Nov 07 2012 at 4:47 PM Rating: Excellent
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I don't run around considering myself elite. I consider myself a player that doesn't want to see other players stonewalled, be it through adjustment of old content or preventing new stuff from being the same. Of course I'd like more things to chase and meaningful ways to make my character grow. Who wouldn't? But I'll never sit here and say, "YOU CAN'T HAVE THAT!" because I simply feel more experienced or was fortunate enough to have other people carry me through sh*t.

So, while you may be cool with farming Dynamis 50 times over 50 days, not everyone else will be, let alone able to do it every day. That model of gaming is everything that's wrong with the MMO genre today. Yes, FFXI has the abhorrent problem of slow/lacking updates these days, but that's no justification for simply piling on the grinds. Just watching some of the Trion devs in their Rift streams talking about their upcoming expansion, they mention giving players prestige from time to time. I just have roll my eyes because they're promoting exclusion over inclusion in a genre that's built on the premise of getting people to play together. It's confounding and completely the wrong place to be directing competitive urges. That sh*t can be shoveled off to the PvP realm.

Otherwise, SE hasn't gotten my money since January, so I couldn't throw sense at them even if I wanted to. Not that they ever seemed to give a crap about NA feedback in the year+ I was able to post on their boards. But yes, I'm more than aware of the "Don't dumb it down!" element of gamers out there. I see it everywhere. Not only are their perceptions of difficulty typically flawed, but they tend to share the trait of being selfish tools who aren't happy without telling others how to play.

Edited, Nov 7th 2012 5:51pm by Seriha
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