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Nyzul Uncharted: nice gear, cheater!Follow

#302 Jul 05 2012 at 2:38 PM Rating: Good
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Olorinus, I realize most people dont give a frack about windower. As long as people come in stamping their feet about the EULA and breaking it is super bad as the basis of their argument against cheating, then I will bring up windower because it breaks it too. The EULA (should be called CYOA) is not some supreme law of the land that SE frets about if broken. Its their to cover SEs **** if they **** you off, wrongfully ban you, or whatever. You can't come back all huffy and sue/bother them if something happens because you clicked the accept button on their terms. There are lots of valid arguments about cheating, but this blanket idea that breaking the eula is the reason its bad is weak. If there was a stoplight at the end of a deadend street that never turned green and I lived on that street, law be damned I'm going to work. If I can't alt tab eula be damned I'm going to my **** site! There are times something may be technically rule breaking, but not bad. If there's a gunman at the pool I better walk away because the sign says no running. This obsession with the letter exactness of the eula is absurd.

There is not a team of guys at se banging their heads against a wall trying to figure out how to track and ban windower users. I'd bet money if you asked a few devs off the record if they even care that people are modding their game via windower they wouldn't give 2 sh*ts. The EULA just makes sure there is a way out Scot free if se **** you off to much. They aren't spending dev dollars to combat windower. No game company uses the EULA as their constitution. Its thereto 'reserve the right' to do controversial things, mass ban rmt, and cover their **** I the delete your sh*t for any reason.

Edited, Jul 5th 2012 4:46pm by Banalaty
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#303 Jul 05 2012 at 2:49 PM Rating: Good
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Ok, yeah though, EULA aside - are people trying to argue that modding lamp dats to foil the intentions of the developers (as maddening as we can all agree they are) and seeing through walls and flee hacking isn't cheating? It seems like a textbook case of it to me (modifying the game to give yourself an advantage others don't have)...

I guess I just want someone on the pro-hack side of the argument to acknowledge that there is a good chance that if folks continue voiding the intentions of the developers in this event that the result is probably going to be events with even worse design.

It's sort of hard to argue NNI is poorly designed and needs to be changed and nothing should ever be designed like that again if thousands of people have all the gear from it. So I worry, and I think my worry is justified - that these actions will harm everyone.

Otherwise, I wouldn't give a crap. It's just where it has the potential to affect me that I get my panties in a bunch.
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#304 Jul 05 2012 at 2:54 PM Rating: Good
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Olorinus wrote:
Ok, yeah though, EULA aside - are people trying to argue that modding lamp dats to foil the intentions of the developers (as maddening as we can all agree they are) and seeing through walls and flee hacking isn't cheating? It seems like a textbook case of it to me (modifying the game to give yourself an advantage others don't have)...
Wait wait wait. Who said it wasn't cheating?
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#305 Jul 05 2012 at 3:01 PM Rating: Good
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detlef wrote:
Olorinus wrote:
Ok, yeah though, EULA aside - are people trying to argue that modding lamp dats to foil the intentions of the developers (as maddening as we can all agree they are) and seeing through walls and flee hacking isn't cheating? It seems like a textbook case of it to me (modifying the game to give yourself an advantage others don't have)...
Wait wait wait. Who said it wasn't cheating?


I am not sure about this either - I dont think anyone who is using this method came out and said "this isnt cheating."

Quote:

I guess I just want someone on the pro-hack side of the argument to acknowledge that there is a good chance that if folks continue voiding the intentions of the developers in this event that the result is probably going to be events with even worse design.


For the record, I dont use these cheats - I heard NNI was so abysmal I have avoided it completely. That being said, I really dont care if people use these cheats; its not harming me in any way, and I dont think its even harming me in the abstract way by SE thinking everything is peechy because several people have full sets of armor. I dont recall SE ever turning back droprate criticism with stats like "well, X% of people have the item, so the event is easy enough." That has simply never happened to my knowledge, so its highly, highly doubtful they will do that with this. Hell, after the salvage bans it was obvious people were willing to cheat (possibly because Salvage was just too fruitless): the madness of getting drops from salvage was never really addressed until that gear was pretty much useless.

Want to know how SE really feels about hacks? Right now as I type this there are 50+ /anon fish botters in the Glacier on Valefor. How long have fishbots been around, 2004?

Edited, Jul 5th 2012 5:15pm by ManifestOfKujata
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#306 Jul 05 2012 at 3:03 PM Rating: Good
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ManifestOfKujata wrote:
detlef wrote:
Olorinus wrote:
Ok, yeah though, EULA aside - are people trying to argue that modding lamp dats to foil the intentions of the developers (as maddening as we can all agree they are) and seeing through walls and flee hacking isn't cheating? It seems like a textbook case of it to me (modifying the game to give yourself an advantage others don't have)...
Wait wait wait. Who said it wasn't cheating?


I am not sure about this either - I dont think anyone who is using this method came out and said "this isnt cheating."
Yeah. I'm pretty sure the argument has specifically been "we don't particularly care if its cheating, because the event is designed in such a way to punish even a well-organized team."
#307 Jul 05 2012 at 3:09 PM Rating: Good
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It is cheating. That has never been a point of contention. The problem is that some anti cheaters are saying its bad BECAUSE its cheating. If that is the REASON its bad its faulty because things like windower before windowed mode is equally a bad BECAUSE its cheating which is preposterous. The fact that its technically illegal doesn't make something evil. Law/rules dont decide morality in and of themselves. If I write a rule that if more than 1 person are in my house they must dual to the death and the victor must yell, IN THE END, THERE CAN BE ONLY 1!!!! the rule means jack sh*t to change the actions right/wrong/moralityness.

which brings up the next aspect. If you dont give a sh*t about windower but do car about flee hacking because it 'gives a user an advantage over another' then its hypocritical to be against flee hacks but pro windower. Both give advantages you shouldn't have. You can't pick and choose the cheats you like to be ok but the cheats you dont are bad because they are cheats. If the definition of cheating is how you measure good and bad, you can't exclude the cheats you like. You need a different reason its bad that only applies to the 'bad' ones.

To the final point about future content being worse because everyone has 15/15. The fact that people are successful in an event doesn't mean the event is ok. It is not a barometer of good/bad/fun/not fun. The idea that players are successfully completing content there for next round will be harder implies that SE is trying to make impossible content that no one can win. "Well **** They beat the last dungeon fast. Better make the next one 3x as hard!" that idea only applies if you are actively trying to 'beat' the players. That has no bearing on fun content development. I think that idea is a little far oueven for se.

Edited, Jul 5th 2012 5:17pm by Banalaty
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#308 Jul 05 2012 at 3:10 PM Rating: Good
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Olorinus wrote:
Ok, yeah though, EULA aside - are people trying to argue that modding lamp dats to foil the intentions of the developers (as maddening as we can all agree they are) and seeing through walls and flee hacking isn't cheating? It seems like a textbook case of it to me (modifying the game to give yourself an advantage others don't have)...


To my knowledge, no one is arguing this.

They are just explaining their reasons for doing so.


Olorinus wrote:

I guess I just want someone on the pro-hack side of the argument to acknowledge that there is a good chance that if folks continue voiding the intentions of the developers in this event that the result is probably going to be events with even worse design.

It's sort of hard to argue NNI is poorly designed and needs to be changed and nothing should ever be designed like that again if thousands of people have all the gear from it. So I worry, and I think my worry is justified - that these actions will harm everyone.


You are right to worry those things but somehow SE eventually started designing better events than server wide, 24-72 hour pops, probably because they couldn't do anything worse than that. Those were events for years 1.5 to 8.5 of the game life that had "folks continue voiding the intentions of the developers" (e.g., cheating).





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#309 Jul 05 2012 at 3:10 PM Rating: Default
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Banalaty wrote:
There is not a team of guys at se banging their heads against a wall trying to figure out how to track and ban windower users. I'd bet money if you asked a few devs off the record if they even care that people are modding their game via windower they wouldn't give 2 sh*ts. The EULA just makes sure there is a way out Scot free if se **** you off to much. They aren't spending dev dollars to combat windower. No game company uses the EULA as their constitution. Its thereto 'reserve the right' to do controversial things, mass ban rmt, and cover their **** I the delete your sh*t for any reason.


Exactly what I was trying to convey. SE has the EULA to enforce their status-quo of what they deem "appropriate actions" in the game. The windower is a program that I am sure most GMs don't consider "cheating" but I am sure they will say it is violation of the EULA. If I were to compare it to a sport, I would rate the plain-jane windower about as exploitable as coach having a written play book instead of having it all inside of his head.

If a team had mario raccoon tails to fly the way to the touchdown line (because they think it is too hard to do it normally)... that would be "cheating" (funny to see but cheating). I think SE is smart enough to know which parts of the EULA to enforce and which to not. It's always a hard call, but a line has to be drawn in the sand sometimes because if you don't, people won't just cross the line, they will destroy it.

To be honest I think the windower is of no harm. The EULA says it is wrong. I'd expect SE to enforce their laws that they made when it comes to their intellectual property. But what I think doesn't really matter in the scope of things. It is their game. I just wish to warn people that they can be banned for using Nyzul hacks (and who knows maybe the windower?). People have stated that everyone agrees it violates the EULA to cheat, but honestly, some people don't. They don't read it when they sign it (or maybe they don't understand it). Players have been saying it is ok to cheat inside of FFXI and there are no consequences so they should just follow the herd. I don't want them tricked into doing something that they will be most likely banned for and not know why. Remember some MMOs allow 3rd party content and they might think the same way about FFXI and break the rule to the fullest extent.
#310 Jul 05 2012 at 3:17 PM Rating: Good
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Now that I think of it Prrsha, werent you the guy turning people in to GMs if they shouted to sell a spot in a FC party?
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#311 Jul 05 2012 at 3:28 PM Rating: Default
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ManifestOfKujata wrote:
Now that I think of it Prrsha, werent you the guy turning people in to GMs if they shouted to sell a spot in a FC party?


Yes and no. It is more complex then that. I asked a GM if it was wrong to sell spots in parties and he said, yes. You can be slapped with a temp ban for it. I PMed a total of 3 people on Phoenix who were shouting and warned them and what the GM said. I didn't turn anyone into a GM, I just gave them a heads up. The 3 people by the way were people whom I have known for a long time in the game (but not on personal level). I didn't want them to get banned for shouts, so I warned them against it.

Olorinus wrote:
I guess I just want someone on the pro-hack side of the argument to acknowledge that there is a good chance that if folks continue voiding the intentions of the developers in this event that the result is probably going to be events with even worse design.


A good case in point is fishing. Due to bot cheats the playerbase has suffered when it comes to selling their fish. NPC buy price was lowered and a fatigue system was added. Also rusty caps when synthed are plain caps not padded caps. They gil reduced from synthing them was reduced ten fold.

Edited, Jul 5th 2012 5:33pm by Prrsha
#312 Jul 05 2012 at 3:31 PM Rating: Decent
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Absolutely. I am not advocating that people cheat because they allow windower (very unofficially). Only that demonizing people that break the Eula is silly, and people that dont like flee hackers need to organize the arguments why, else they spout the its cheating so its wrong! line and make themselves hypocrites (windower) or base their morality attacks based on arbitrary rules, ( a company rule book doesn't determine morality. Insert Hitler, slavery references because they had laws that were NOT morally sound)

unless I'm mistaken I have never told anyone they 'should' cheat. Only defended cheaters from illogical attacks. As fior the fishing argument, they did the same to npc prices of other farmed items which were done completely legally. Bst blood, bird blood and others. No one was not farming or cheating and that got nerfed too. SE has a history of jacking things up even when there's no tis/eula issues.

Edited, Jul 5th 2012 5:38pm by Banalaty
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#313 Jul 05 2012 at 3:36 PM Rating: Default
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Banalaty wrote:
Absolutely. I am not advocating that people cheat because they allow windower (very unofficially). Only that demonizing people that break the Eula is silly, and people that dont like flee hackers need to organize the arguments why, else they spout the its cheating so its wrong! line and make themselves hypocrites (windower) or base their morality attacks based on arbitrary rules, ( a company rule book doesn't determine morality. Insert Hitler, slavery references because they had laws that were NOT morally sound)


Please don't mention Hitler. The comparison is way off. I doubt anyone SIGNED an agreement to be killed without being decieved.

This is not a world war or we are debating but a EULA that a game company has created saying not to alter their property.

Banalaty wrote:
unless I'm mistaken I have never told anyone they 'should' cheat. Only defended cheaters from illogical attacks. As fior the fishing argument, they did the same to npc prices of other farmed items which were done completely legally. Bst blood, bird blood and others. No one was not farming or cheating and that got nerfed too. SE has a history of jacking things up even when there's no tis/eula issues.


I'd assume the blood issue was an oversight of SE. It was generating too much gil that they probably thought was messing with the economy.

Edited, Jul 5th 2012 5:43pm by Prrsha
#314 Jul 05 2012 at 3:39 PM Rating: Default
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Prrsha wrote:
If I were to compare it to a sport, I would rate the plain-jane windower about as exploitable as coach having a written play book instead of having it all inside of his head.
That's literally comparing apples and higgs bosons.
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#315Prrsha, Posted: Jul 05 2012 at 3:45 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Maybe it fell on his head too. XD
#316 Jul 05 2012 at 3:46 PM Rating: Excellent
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Prrsha wrote:
ManifestOfKujata wrote:
Now that I think of it Prrsha, werent you the guy turning people in to GMs if they shouted to sell a spot in a FC party?


Yes and no. It is more complex then that. I asked a GM if it was wrong to sell spots in parties and he said, yes. You can be slapped with a temp ban for it. I PMed a total of 3 people on Phoenix who were shouting and warned them and what the GM said. I didn't turn anyone into a GM, I just gave them a heads up. The 3 people by the way were people whom I have known for a long time in the game (but not on personal level). I didn't want them to get banned for shouts, so I warned them against it.


Really? Thats odd, because you told us something completely different a few months ago:

First mention:
Prrsha wrote:

Oh, yes. I do own up to reporting people SELLING FC per hour for gil. According to the GMs I have spoken with, this is bannable. It's bannable in the same way as you can claim a NM and SELL the claim for GIL. As for FC parties for free? Nah, they don't care. Nor do they seem to care about those buy FCs.

I don't intend to know their logic in this, only that they do ban people that shout "FC in xxx for xxx gil for 7 hrs."

It's a good sign to see people offering others help to accomplish a similar goal or even help another. It's crosses the line when people SELL leveling parties to the desprate.

If you don't believe me, read the post you linked to.

To sum it up again. You SELL spots in jeuno via shouts you get banned. You OFFER spots in jeuno via shouts you don't.

On one occasion I had a player come back to me in a /tell a few days later saying he got a temp ban and was asked to please desist by a GM.


second mention:
Prrsha wrote:

Like I said, maybe, maybe not. TBH there is always a point where a flame fest starts in Port Jeuno over the people who charge for leveling. I don't pay for leveling. I never have... however the GMs do ban on the spot for it. If I do report someone for the whole "pay me xxx for xxx hrs of lvling" gig, I warn them 1st that SE is cracking down. If they stop I move on. If it becomes a crazy circus of shouts even after they are warned, yes I do report the offenders to the STFU.

The STFU asks for the day, location of shouts, and the person in question. Once reported it's up to them to choose their course of action. I've even been thanked for doing so. With all of this talk of what FFXI is or what it should be... I dunno... isn't this issue clear by their actions?


And scroll a bit up to my post a little above the first one I linked to:

Prrsha wrote:

"I just report them and they appear in Gooul"


So is lying in your EULA?

EDIT: I pointed out how you were dishonest in that other thread as well. Seriously, how can someone SO for following the rules pull dishonesty out of his backside so freely?

After rereading some of that thread...I stand by my **** comment I made on the last page, even if I got sh*t for it. **** dude.

Edited, Jul 5th 2012 6:02pm by ManifestOfKujata
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#317 Jul 05 2012 at 4:23 PM Rating: Good
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Banalaty wrote:

which brings up the next aspect. If you dont give a sh*t about windower but do car about flee hacking because it 'gives a user an advantage over another' then its hypocritical to be against flee hacks but pro windower. Both give advantages you shouldn't have. You can't pick and choose the cheats you like to be ok but the cheats you dont are bad because they are cheats. If the definition of cheating is how you measure good and bad, you can't exclude the cheats you like. You need a different reason its bad that only applies to the 'bad' ones.


Nice excluded middle there.

Its fine if you don't see a difference, but I do. What else can I say? All jobs in the game and all players have macros. Not all jobs have any sort of non-item induced flee. None have perma flee. So half of it is a matter of degree. I don't have problems with people using better macros than me. Heck there are tons of people on vanilla with better macros than me.

I don't really give a fig about the marginal improvements some players will have over me because they have better macros. Why would I?

However. If I'm running to claim an NM and someone flee hacks and grabs it first, well, gee, yeah, of course I'm going to be against that. It impacts me.

Why would I be against someone in my party having particularly good macros? Why would I care if someone I'm watching kill an NM while I wait for my turn can kill slightly better or faster? That has no negative impact on me or other players.

Your argument is like saying you can't be okay with PVR if you're against downloading TV. They are similar, but different, and agree or disagree, I think it is a little over the top to call people hypocrites for not being completely black and white.

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#318 Jul 05 2012 at 4:54 PM Rating: Good
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OK let me try a slightly different approach. There are basically 3 ways to look at the rule breaking.
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Option A: Everything that breaks the exact letter of the law should be enforced and people should live to the exact standards they are under. This is the "Windowers and everything should be banned" position. This is simply not realistic in any way shape or form. This is like doling out tickets to the parents of every kid that rides a bike on the sidewalk. (Its illegal to ride a bike on the sidewalk. Dunno if its national law or state, but its true where i live). This is a little rediculous. Everyone breaks the law to SOME degree. Everyone breaks the rules to SOME degree. Someone has retracted their move in checkers after they removed their hand from the piece. Someone has gone gone 61 in a 60. Someone has used windower. Living to the EXACT letter of every rule is, quite frankly, unrealistic and never enforced. If you are of this position, all i can say is GL to you, but me and the rest of the world arent going along with it. You may be 'technically' correct but no one gives a sh*t if your the guy flipping tables because someone retracted their move in checkers after taking their hand off the piece. Cops are TOLD not to pull over every kid on a bike on the sidewalk and ticket their parents for it. The law is there to prevent cyclists from running over wheelchairs on a 3-4ft sidewalk. Not to make kids ride in the street with traffic. Its simply unreasonable. Cops are TOLD not to enforce this to the letter. Just like no one at SE is just revin up to ban all those windower guys. That stance is simply to extreme for a livable world.

Option B: Well they dont pull me over for goin 61 in a 60 so i can go 150mph in a school zone! Same THANG! Welcome to anarchy. Just because SOME rules arent enforced doesnt mean you can break them all. Duh. NASA bots are bad mmkay.

Now that we see that the obious extremes are stupid, whats left? Option C: Rules are there, but enfoced in a 'reasonable' way. Welcome to the gray area. Well windower is harmless and fine. Nasa bots are bad. What about spellcast? Its just a step up from extended macros? What about those cure bot programs? Thats just a step up from spellcast. Gradations in every aspect. What if you just flee hack 12.5% speed AND you already have wlegs? Its just a convenience. What if you do 12.5% but you left them in your mog? I mean really gonna enforce that? Well if thats not enfocred what about flee hack 12.5% and no wlegs? Well nin can get 25% naturally anyway! Well waht about, what about, what about.

If you are in option A or B, quite frankly your being absurd. 100% by the book is unlivable. Total anarchy kills games. We exist somewhere in between. What happens when the enforcement agency doesnt live 100% by the book? THey make exceptions, like not ticketing a kids riding on the sidewalks parents. You start to see the word 'reasonable' tossed around. It becomes an unspoken pact between the enforcers and the enforcees. This is what we have in all aspects of the world from games to law. So who decides this? And now were back to a post a few pages ago taht discussed the agreement between SE and the players (not the EULA or TOS. But an unspoken agreement about what is 'reasonably allowed' like windower for example). The thing is, no single person has any more right to draw a line in the sand 3 feet from the by the book category and claim they are 'more right' than a player that draws the line 4 feet from the by the book category.

sh*t is gray. @#%^ing gray. Group 1 says the line for 'unreasonable hacking' is 3 feet from the line. Group 2 says, now, this event is far to unreasonable so we shall make an exception because its 'unreasonable'.

You have no more right to say im unreasonable than I do to you. Unreasonable is an opinion. To rule this game without opinion is to fall into either: All cheats are bad and should be banned. Ticket the parents of every kid on a trike on the sidewalk! Or, @#%^ it! CHEAT ALL THE THINGS! Drag race through school zones at 330PM!!! If you are in one of those categories, your unreasonable. If your not, then we can quibble endlessly about what IS 'reasonable' because its a @#%^ing opinion. You have no right to tell me what i think is reasonable let alone judge me for it. What possible argument makes so that your idea of reasonable is 'more right' than mine? Is it what the general community thinks? Times change and so do opinions. This event has changed peoples mind because the event itself is so unreasonable to the general community.

This sh*t is NOT black and white. If you treat it as such, your being unreasonable. Living 100% by the book is simply not realistic, or even feasible in most cases. If you are not claiming that ALL minor infractions should cease and be banned then you are in the same group as the cheaters. Fighting over gray area and 'degrees' of cheating trying to determine a consensus among many varied interest of what 'reasonable' is. There is no debate that a 5yo on a trike on the sidewalk is breaking the rules in my state. Its crystal clear just like windower is crystal clear cheating. Just like flee hacking is cheating. But its UNREASONABLE to enforce because those kids are safer there than riding in traffic. No one says cheaters arent cheating, they are saying that it is REASONABLE to do so in this circumstance.

@#%^ing. Gray. Area. Get off the 'you broke the rulez!' harping. We already know we are. But we are talking about a realistic and reasonable application of the rules which is an opinion and yours holds no more sway than mine. Opinions are valid so long as they can be backed up by some argument. We say the event is so unreasonable, that it requires an addendum to deal with this sh*t. You say i disagree that it is, in fact, not ''too unreasonable" to warrent a special treatment. (unless you are in the by the letter crowd, in which case i will promptly ignore you because its an unlivable lifestyle) Great! Can we call this a day now?


Edited, Jul 5th 2012 7:03pm by Banalaty
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#319 Jul 05 2012 at 6:20 PM Rating: Default
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Prrsha wrote:
Banalaty wrote:
There is not a team of guys at se banging their heads against a wall trying to figure out how to track and ban windower users. I'd bet money if you asked a few devs off the record if they even care that people are modding their game via windower they wouldn't give 2 sh*ts. The EULA just makes sure there is a way out Scot free if se **** you off to much. They aren't spending dev dollars to combat windower. No game company uses the EULA as their constitution. Its thereto 'reserve the right' to do controversial things, mass ban rmt, and cover their **** I the delete your sh*t for any reason.


Exactly what I was trying to convey. SE has the EULA to enforce their status-quo of what they deem "appropriate actions" in the game. The windower is a program that I am sure most GMs don't consider "cheating" but I am sure they will say it is violation of the EULA. If I were to compare it to a sport, I would rate the plain-jane windower about as exploitable as coach having a written play book instead of having it all inside of his head.

If a team had mario raccoon tails to fly the way to the touchdown line (because they think it is too hard to do it normally)... that would be "cheating" (funny to see but cheating). I think SE is smart enough to know which parts of the EULA to enforce and which to not. It's always a hard call, but a line has to be drawn in the sand sometimes because if you don't, people won't just cross the line, they will destroy it.

To be honest I think the windower is of no harm. The EULA says it is wrong. I'd expect SE to enforce their laws that they made when it comes to their intellectual property. But what I think doesn't really matter in the scope of things. It is their game. I just wish to warn people that they can be banned for using Nyzul hacks (and who knows maybe the windower?). People have stated that everyone agrees it violates the EULA to cheat, but honestly, some people don't. They don't read it when they sign it (or maybe they don't understand it). Players have been saying it is ok to cheat inside of FFXI and there are no consequences so they should just follow the herd. I don't want them tricked into doing something that they will be most likely banned for and not know why. Remember some MMOs allow 3rd party content and they might think the same way about FFXI and break the rule to the fullest extent.


ManifestOfKujata wrote:
Prrsha wrote:
ManifestOfKujata wrote:
Now that I think of it Prrsha, werent you the guy turning people in to GMs if they shouted to sell a spot in a FC party?


Yes and no. It is more complex then that. I asked a GM if it was wrong to sell spots in parties and he said, yes. You can be slapped with a temp ban for it. I PMed a total of 3 people on Phoenix who were shouting and warned them and what the GM said. I didn't turn anyone into a GM, I just gave them a heads up. The 3 people by the way were people whom I have known for a long time in the game (but not on personal level). I didn't want them to get banned for shouts, so I warned them against it.


Really? Thats odd, because you told us something completely different a few months ago:

First mention:
Prrsha wrote:

Oh, yes. I do own up to reporting people SELLING FC per hour for gil. According to the GMs I have spoken with, this is bannable. It's bannable in the same way as you can claim a NM and SELL the claim for GIL. As for FC parties for free? Nah, they don't care. Nor do they seem to care about those buy FCs.

I don't intend to know their logic in this, only that they do ban people that shout "FC in xxx for xxx gil for 7 hrs."

It's a good sign to see people offering others help to accomplish a similar goal or even help another. It's crosses the line when people SELL leveling parties to the desprate.

If you don't believe me, read the post you linked to.

To sum it up again. You SELL spots in jeuno via shouts you get banned. You OFFER spots in jeuno via shouts you don't.

On one occasion I had a player come back to me in a /tell a few days later saying he got a temp ban and was asked to please desist by a GM.


second mention:
Prrsha wrote:

Like I said, maybe, maybe not. TBH there is always a point where a flame fest starts in Port Jeuno over the people who charge for leveling. I don't pay for leveling. I never have... however the GMs do ban on the spot for it. If I do report someone for the whole "pay me xxx for xxx hrs of lvling" gig, I warn them 1st that SE is cracking down. If they stop I move on. If it becomes a crazy circus of shouts even after they are warned, yes I do report the offenders to the STFU.

The STFU asks for the day, location of shouts, and the person in question. Once reported it's up to them to choose their course of action. I've even been thanked for doing so. With all of this talk of what FFXI is or what it should be... I dunno... isn't this issue clear by their actions?


And scroll a bit up to my post a little above the first one I linked to:

Prrsha wrote:

"I just report them and they appear in Gooul"


So is lying in your EULA?

EDIT: I pointed out how you were dishonest in that other thread as well. Seriously, how can someone SO for following the rules pull dishonesty out of his backside so freely?

After rereading some of that thread...I stand by my **** comment I made on the last page, even if I got sh*t for it. **** dude.


I'll clarify then: I spoke to a GM about paid FCs. He said it was bannable. When his attention was brought to it by my question people disappeared with a temp ban. Later those people came back and told me about it. Once I saw that, I warned others who were shouting about FCs for cash about what the GMs are doing. I spoke to 3 people regarding this and warned them about people going poof. These events occured in the course of 2 days. After that I went soloing with friend and just plain stayed away from Jeuno for a few days. I never contacted a GM later. Did my GM call get those people temp banned? Yeah, indirectly. The whole reason why I asked the GM in the first place was to find out if it was ok or not.

Probably the best solution if anyone is confused at what things are ok or not to do in FFXI is to ask a GM. It's the best way to clear up a grey area. When in doubt ask the ref.

Banalaty wrote:
OK let me try a slightly different approach. There are basically 3 ways to look at the rule breaking.
If you are in option A or B, quite frankly your being absurd. 100% by the book is unlivable. Total anarchy kills games. We exist somewhere in between. What happens when the enforcement agency doesnt live 100% by the book? THey make exceptions, like not ticketing a kids riding on the sidewalks parents. You start to see the word 'reasonable' tossed around. It becomes an unspoken pact between the enforcers and the enforcees. This is what we have in all aspects of the world from games to law. So who decides this? And now were back to a post a few pages ago taht discussed the agreement between SE and the players (not the EULA or TOS. But an unspoken agreement about what is 'reasonably allowed' like windower for example). The thing is, no single person has any more right to draw a line in the sand 3 feet from the by the book category and claim they are 'more right' than a player that draws the line 4 feet from the by the book category.

sh*t is gray. @#%^ing gray. Group 1 says the line for 'unreasonable hacking' is 3 feet from the line. Group 2 says, now, this event is far to unreasonable so we shall make an exception because its 'unreasonable'.

You have no more right to say im unreasonable than I do to you. Unreasonable is an opinion. To rule this game without opinion is to fall into either: All cheats are bad and should be banned. Ticket the parents of every kid on a trike on the sidewalk! Or, @#%^ it! CHEAT ALL THE THINGS! Drag race through school zones at 330PM!!! If you are in one of those categories, your unreasonable. If your not, then we can quibble endlessly about what IS 'reasonable' because its a @#%^ing opinion. .


I agree 100% to what you said, however I tend to (and I assume many others) believe that what is going on in Nyzul is like the person driving 330 mph.

Banalaty wrote:
You have no right to tell me what i think is reasonable let alone judge me for it. What possible argument makes so that your idea of reasonable is 'more right' than mine? Is it what the general community thinks? Times change and so do opinions. This event has changed peoples mind because the event itself is so unreasonable to the general community.


In a debate people are free to their own opinion. When people express opinions which are counter to another's, it's that in itself judgemental?

As for the entire community changing their mind over cheating due to Nyzul... that's not the case. Some people find the event reasonable in their above posts. I really don't think all of these hacks and mods appeared overnight when Nyzul was altered. They were in place long ago and people cried foul (or supported) them then. Don't use the excuse that you were "forced" to cheat (although there was someone complaining about being bullied for refusing to cheat) because of Nyzul. The area is an optional one and the gear is optional too.

If you want the area or event changed, speak up. So far I bet SE has read this thread, seen complaints, seen people admiting to using 3rd party tools in game. Keeping this discussion going only helps everyone's case really... It forces a huge neon infront of their face saying there are problems with Nyzul. Your energy is better spent changing their minds instead of altering their game to get what you want. If you cheat there is a risk of losing your character. Speaking up is a safer, better approach plus it doesn't divide the community so...

Edited, Jul 5th 2012 9:53pm by Prrsha
#320 Jul 06 2012 at 11:02 AM Rating: Good
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Let me try to sort this out: you are for black-and-white definitions when it comes to following the EULA; but when it comes to someone calling you out on lying, suddenly its no longer in the world of black-and-white, its "....I'll clarify...", as to suggest its not a yes-or-no, its an explanation.

There is no clarification needed here: you said you never turned anyone in for selling FC parties, but there was a screenshot of you discussing how you did just that; furthermore, you said "I just report them and they appear in Gooul." You admitting this not only implies that you turned people in to GMs but that you reveled in doing so. There is no "clarification": according to you, you told people to stop selling FC spots, they didnt do as you instructed, then - according to you - you mentioned it to a GM, you obviously gave specific names (unless its a VERY big coincidence that the people that were temp banned just happened to talk to you about it afterwards which is highly doubtful), then - according to you - they ended up in jail. That is a VERY VERY VERY far cry from your initial claim of "I didn't turn anyone into a GM". You certainly DID turn specific people into a GM and then tried to lie about it in the post above.

Just as a side note - you never considered selling spots in a FC party, so the ONLY reason you would have to contact a GM about the issue is to turn people in to the authorities. Why else would you care to even waste a GMs time over this? Normal people - if they question a practice but dont engage in that practice themselves - dont call a GM to simply ask about it, they have an angle and that angle is to put a stop to the issue.

And just so there is no confusion, the statement "Oh, yes. I do own up to reporting people SELLING FC per hour for gil." means you reported specific people for selling FC spots. There is absolutely no "let me clarify..." here.

Sorry, I just cant take it when people blatantly lie like that - and, in my mind, this instance catapults you into the realm of a sociopath. Is sociopath a strong label? Lets explore. you said this:

Prrsha wrote:

I just wish to warn people that they can be banned for using Nyzul hacks (and who knows maybe the windower?)...I don't want them tricked into doing something that they will be most likely banned for and not know why.


But then you go ahead and do this:

Prrsha wrote:

"I just report them and they appear in Gooul"


You are trying to give this impression that you hold yourself to a higher standard (and you hold other people to this high standard), and that you truly care about people and dont want to see them banned - you care, so you warn them. But in reality, you are the AGENT of people being banned. You really go out of your way to be an @#%^ by acting on a level most level-headded people would never consider, and then you are willing to be fully dishonest about going out of your way to be an @#%^ WHILE ALSO trying to play the part of White Knight.

This is why I cant take any of your posts seriously; the sociopathic dishonesty just really sours me to the whole experience. Sorry, but this is why I cant trust your judgement on when using hacks crosses the line. In fact, I would put money on the fact that you recorded everyone's name in this thread that admitted to using any 3rd party software and are in the process of shipping this info off to the STF.

Edited, Jul 6th 2012 1:31pm by ManifestOfKujata
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#321 Jul 06 2012 at 11:35 AM Rating: Good
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Thanks Manifest, I was wondering where I remembered this Prrsha poster from.
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#322 Jul 06 2012 at 12:08 PM Rating: Excellent
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GMing a person for selling an in game service for in game money? You must be so cool.
#323 Jul 06 2012 at 12:22 PM Rating: Good
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If nothing else, Prrsha is a good demonstration of how cheating and degrees of cheating are fairly subjective concepts.
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#324 Jul 06 2012 at 12:28 PM Rating: Excellent
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Fact: there is an afterlife, and anyone who cheated in FFXI will go to Mordion Hel when they die.
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#325 Jul 06 2012 at 1:28 PM Rating: Excellent
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Relevant:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v387/gangstakago/WoW/20090928.jpg
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#326 Jul 06 2012 at 2:43 PM Rating: Good
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Reiterpallasch wrote:
GMing a person for selling an in game service for in game money? You must be so cool.


It wasn't even against the EULA! (Then neither was what was happening in Salvage...)


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#327 Jul 06 2012 at 2:46 PM Rating: Excellent
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TheBarrister wrote:
Reiterpallasch wrote:
GMing a person for selling an in game service for in game money? You must be so cool.


It wasn't even against the EULA! (Then neither was what was happening in Salvage...)


Salvage is an interesting case because duping occurred using normal game mechanics with no cheats required. For that matter, buying and reselling stuff in Tavnazia was still bannable as well, and didn't require any abnormal or unusual actions.
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#328 Jul 06 2012 at 6:51 PM Rating: Excellent
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detlef wrote:
TheBarrister wrote:
Reiterpallasch wrote:
GMing a person for selling an in game service for in game money? You must be so cool.

It wasn't even against the EULA! (Then neither was what was happening in Salvage...)
Salvage is an interesting case because duping occurred using normal game mechanics with no cheats required. For that matter, buying and reselling stuff in Tavnazia was still bannable as well, and didn't require any abnormal or unusual actions.

I would have thought that the EULA would have a provision against taking advantage of an unintentional game mechanic (i.e. a bug). Most games do. People who make use of the Salvage dupe bug tried to make the argument, "Well we thought that this was intentional behavior, and that we had discovered some secret game mechanic that SE wanted us to find out on our own." However, the fact that the linkshells which regularly took full advantage of this behavior were clearly doing everything they could to keep all of this information hush hush would indicate that they knew they were taking advantage of a bug, and that they didn't want SE to fix it.
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#329 Jul 07 2012 at 4:04 AM Rating: Excellent
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svlyons wrote:
I would have thought that the EULA would have a provision against taking advantage of an unintentional game mechanic (i.e. a bug).


It's actually under GM Policies: "Players who take advantage of in-game mechanics not intended as normal means of game play".

If you all are curious: 26 Nov 2008 Thread

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#330 Jul 07 2012 at 7:04 AM Rating: Good
Ok, i've been following this thread, usually coming to check it when i was bored. I've refrained from posting in it until now.

ManifestOfKujata wrote:
Prrsha wrote:

...
I am just stating the laws as they are. Plain and dry. I don't agree with every law but I'd expect them to be enforced.
...


Geez, how many Jews, gypsies, and gays were turned over to the authorities because of this mentality - after all, they broke Germany's EULA by being jewish / **** / a gypsie.

EDIT: I know I know I know, the **** references are cliche. I just get so irritated by people when they play the "I dont agree to this" then offer their backsides to their "superiors", actually applauding them when they enforce the same actions "they dont agree with." Yech. How mindlessly apathetic.

Edited, Jul 5th 2012 3:12pm by ManifestOfKujata


That was it for me.

Forum users in general, FFXI in particular, can get too full of themselves. I think everyone can agree that is practically an axiom. But when this laughable issue starts drawing Holocaust parallels by someone, i think the whole lot of you need to just step the **** back and look at yourselves for a tick.

People are going to do what they want. Period. And ppl will twist common sense beyond all reason to justify their actions. Gonna quickly list what i've taken from this thread then give my opinion on the action both groups should take.


*NIUAS sucks(i can attest to to this as i did it quite a bit when it was released) for many and sundrey reasons.

*NIUAS boasts some nice gear.

*Some ppl(group 1) are doing w/e they deem necessary to obtain said gear.

*Other ppl(group 2) are upset at the lengths group 1 are willing to resort to.

*Pointless debate arguing ensues ad nausea.


That about right so far? Now my opinion.

Group 1, more power to you fellows/gals! Godspeed! I wouldn't mind some of that gear, but for me, my own risk/gain assessment of the situation puts me on the 'never gonna get any' pile. Keep doing what you are doing and enjoy your results. I've opted out of doing events in the past when they seemed pointless(for w/e reasons) to me, this is just another one i'll continue to avoid.

Group 2, leave off ppl. You can only control yourself ultimately. If group 1 wants to play with fire, let them. No amount of finger-waggin' can change minds once folks lock into the stance that they are right. Either they will get the sweet gear and make out like bandits. OR they can enjoy what gains they can from their behavior and have to deal with a penalty later on. Group 2 folks can A) participate in this **** event in a way they feel is proper, B) say **** it and jump to group 1, or C) opt out of NIUASuntil SE adjusts the content and leave group 1 to their ultimate fate.

I mean both groups make good points and neither looks to be backing down anytime soon. SE will eventually do something, it may take yrs as usual, but they will. And until that time, the best policy imho it to worry more about 'self' and not what the other guy is doing.

All that said, i'm gonna step right back and let you all get back to what you were doing. Just felt the need to put that out there.


Carry on.



PS-Still can't shake it, comparing collaborators in the gods'damned Holocaust to this smemy issue? Smiley: oyvey
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#331 Jul 07 2012 at 10:00 AM Rating: Excellent
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The whole "not intended as normal" thing is a sad joke, given how little communication from SE we hear on things like this. I dunno about you guys, but my psychic abilities only work at short-range, and I can't read the minds of game developers a continent away very well to know what was intended or not.
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#332 Jul 07 2012 at 10:33 AM Rating: Good
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Erecia wrote:
The whole "not intended as normal" thing is a sad joke, given how little communication from SE we hear on things like this. I dunno about you guys, but my psychic abilities only work at short-range, and I can't read the minds of game developers a continent away very well to know what was intended or not.


I'm glad someone else brought up this fact, e.g., that violating the EULA on "not intended to be a game mechanic" requires the impossible ability of reading the minds of whoever decides to interpret eventual, future actions in whichever way suits them.


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#333 Jul 07 2012 at 10:45 AM Rating: Excellent
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TheBarrister wrote:
Erecia wrote:
The whole "not intended as normal" thing is a sad joke, given how little communication from SE we hear on things like this. I dunno about you guys, but my psychic abilities only work at short-range, and I can't read the minds of game developers a continent away very well to know what was intended or not.


I'm glad someone else brought up this fact, e.g., that violating the EULA on "not intended to be a game mechanic" requires the impossible ability of reading the minds of whoever decides to interpret eventual, future actions in whichever way suits them.


[GM]Aliekber>> Thinking about the EULA is not intended to be a game mechanic. Please report to your nearest LM-17 center for bannination.
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#334 Jul 07 2012 at 11:16 AM Rating: Decent
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spiritreaverdiablos the Hand wrote:
Stuff

Just being honest, are you really so young and naive to not know what Godwin's Law is?
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#335 Jul 07 2012 at 12:45 PM Rating: Good
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Raelix wrote:
spiritreaverdiablos the Hand wrote:
Stuff

Just being honest, are you really so young and naive to not know what Godwin's Law is?


I'm not sure what your point is, or why you have to be not-s-subtly insulting about it.

They described Godwin's Law without naming it because that's what took place in here. The fact that they didn't name it doesn't mean that the conversation HASN'T gotten to that stupid of a level.

The point still stands. If you're comparing the Holocaust to cheating in Nyzul Isle because SE is slow on updates, then you need to snap yourself out of your line of thinking before you say more stupid things.
#336 Jul 07 2012 at 2:59 PM Rating: Good
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Just let it be. Someone brought up the holocaust? Well whatever, people don't need to be told that it's ridiculous. It's the internet. There are plenty of other things to get mad about. LIKE CHEATERS.

By the by, are the GM policies listed somewhere? I read through the FFXI rules and policies and unless I'm blind or only semi-literate I don't see anything regarding "Players who take advantage of in-game mechanics not intended as normal means of game play." If it's not on the website, how are people supposed to know that what they are doing is bannable? I'm sure salvage dupers and whatnot knew they were doing something wrong, but I doubt many would have continued doing so if they knew it was bannable. As much fun as it is to punish other people, it surely would have been fairer if a warning had been issued.
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#337 Jul 07 2012 at 3:20 PM Rating: Default
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I'm saying it was already brought up, so why is he starting such a tirade when by definition the comparison is laughable?

That's the point of Godwin's Law and the procedures associated with it: The comparison is almost always stupid, but almost always comes up. Getting worked up about it is akin to complaining that the tide washed your sandcastle away.

It is flat out one of the oldest observations of the internet. **** the basic form predates the 'true' internet by a few years even (when excluding the relations to having 'automatically lost the argment' and such).

If you're gonna take 'young and naive' as an insult by proxy I have a few choice real insults relating to your thin-ass skin.

Edited, Jul 7th 2012 2:27pm by Raelix
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#338 Jul 07 2012 at 3:28 PM Rating: Decent
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Are you agreeing with me or disagreeing? I just said that anybody who is offended by a holocaust reference on an internet gaming forum is probably taking things too seriously.
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#339 Jul 07 2012 at 4:19 PM Rating: Excellent
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detlef wrote:
By the by, are the GM policies listed somewhere?


Sorry, I should have done bit more digging. Since SE moved over to the SE Account Management site, they changed the policy/rules outline.

Here's the latest:

2.1 Cheating and Botting. You may not create or use any cheats, bots, automation software, hacks, mods or any other unauthorized software designed to modify the Game and gameplay. In addition, you may not take advantage of game system bugs and exploits during gameplay.

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#340 Jul 07 2012 at 4:27 PM Rating: Good
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Ah it was in there and I am blind.
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#341 Jul 07 2012 at 5:10 PM Rating: Good
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You can never really tell what is intended to be a game mechanic or not though until they just come out and say it. People may have really thought that fighting in an alliance in salvage was what you were supposed to do, given the abysmal drop rate and other weird sh*t that went on in there.

The game has weirder stuff that IS a game mechanic, such as using /fume on a VW NM to reset the current procs. Linky.

Edited, Jul 7th 2012 7:11pm by Reiterpallasch
#342 Jul 07 2012 at 5:48 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
The game has weirder stuff that IS a game mechanic, such as using /fume on a VW NM to reset the current procs.


Holy crap, that is hella obscure.

By the way, BG wiki expands on this a bit for those who can't read moonspeak:

Quote:
If a set of weaknesses is particularly difficult to hit and the monster has been alive for five minutes or longer, the current hate target of the monster may disengage and use the "/fume" emote on the monster. This will cause the "aura" of the monster to change, and choose an entirely new set of weaknesses. This will not create a new extreme weakness if it has already been hit. For every five minutes the monster is alive, this can be used once (for example, after 10 minutes of fighting, the weaknesses can be changed twice in a row).
#343 Jul 07 2012 at 9:45 PM Rating: Excellent
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What.
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#344 Jul 07 2012 at 9:53 PM Rating: Excellent
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That was my thought.
#345 Jul 07 2012 at 10:12 PM Rating: Default
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@ ManifestOfKujata

Yeah, that is a pretty strong label and I am sure you are going to say I eat kittens too and have cookouts with Nazis. I stand behind my above comments and if you see that as lying, so be it. I told you step by step what happened. You took one sentence and inferred a lot about it. "I just report them and they appear in Gooul". I reported the selling and asked the GM if it was ok. I asked about the action not the person. The GM then banned the people... I assume but am not sure, because they kept shouting and GMs can see the constant chat. It was causing a major argument among players in Jeuno at the time. This is when the concept of selling FCs were new. I did send personal tells to people later warning them what was going on but I never called a GM on them. I should have written back then: "I reported and questioned the FC actions and then they (players that were shouting) appeared in Gooul." After all, I am not a GM in FFXI, I can't ban people. If you have anger about them vanishing, I guess they did something wrong in the eyes of the GM. They made the call to temp ban them.

I didn't wish my comment to be construed as such and it was not my intention. I am not a head hunter that actively hunts out and reports people, however, if I see people cheating in front of me, I report them. I am sure you are going to say "mind your own business" but cheating does effect the community and the game as a whole. Everyone makes errors in grammar and communication (heck even people have posted here drunk) and to label someone so harshly as a sociopath crosses a line. If you met me in real life I'd hope you'd disagree. I just feel strongly against cheating in a game I love and if it comes off as strong, I'm sorry and I apologize.

klausneck wrote:
svlyons wrote:
I would have thought that the EULA would have a provision against taking advantage of an unintentional game mechanic (i.e. a bug).


It's actually under GM Policies: "Players who take advantage of in-game mechanics not intended as normal means of game play".

If you all are curious: 26 Nov 2008 Thread



If history repeats itself, that link is very relevant. After reading the entire thread I wonder if the same thing will happen to those players who are messing around in Nyzul. It also seems that people back then seemed to have more of a dour view of cheating (and they weren't even altering the game to do so).

svlyons wrote:
If nothing else, Prrsha is a good demonstration of how cheating and degrees of cheating are fairly subjective concepts.


True.


Some note worthy quotes from 2008:

Seriha wrote:
I can easily see why people cheat, RMT, or keep secrets to themselves in this game. It's something SE indirectly promotes with a lot of their design choices. It sucks the temptation is even there, no matter how strong a person's individual moral compass may be. It sucks even more when we're confronted with the choice of turning a blind eye to it all or throwing friendships away due a possible moment of weakness. It was something I was implying when I said this isn't just a game, but somewhere the distinction between game and one-upsmanship got lost, too.(


Catwho wrote:
Therefore, if I'm butt-hurt about anything, it's that my friends who did Salvage the way SE intended are nowhere near finished with even one set of gear, and a bunch of exploiters are selling extras to the highest bidder. No QQing here, just a loss of respect for anyone involved in this. This wasn't working harder; it wasn't even working smarter. It was taking advantage of a bug.

The closest real life analogy would be cooking the books because of a loop in the tax code. Your tax adviser assures you it's fine, although he warns you to keep it your little secret as he hands you a triple sized tax refund. When you're caught, it's enough to land you in jail for a few years.


Seriha wrote:
luxv wrote:
BarberofSeville wrote:
Everything in this game takes me about 4x as long as anyone else it seems. I'm in the middle of paying 140M for a relic that those with sponsorship rights are paying 40M for. 211 salvages with one finished piece to show for it. 1020 ancient beastcoins earned in limbus with NO homam or nashira. Etc etc etc.

I'm not going to lie. If there aren't some rollbacks, bans, or some sort of penalties its going to be very difficult to continue playing fair and not cheating. Heck, I have 2 alt accounts at 75 that are totally disposable. If SE let's this go unpunished it will be a clear message that all they care about is how many subscribers they have. I really hope it doesn't come to that, but when a linkshell walks out of a sandworm fight with 60M worth of drops due to cheating......I don't even want to think about how many noble beds or demon quiver stacks it would take me to match that.


If SE is worried about the loss of income from banned players, they need to sit down and think about what would happen when their game gets no new players and loses a significant chunk of current players because it has the label of being too full of bots/cheaters/exploiters.


Edited, Nov 26th 2008 11:02pm by luxv


I'd say that war's caused a good number of casualties already.

Regardless, those implying that none of this can be tracked are silly. Something needs to happen, both to punish and alleviate why people were tempted to begin with.




I haven't laughed as something so hard in a very very long time. XD Thanks. :3

Edited, Jul 8th 2012 3:18am by Prrsha
#346 Jul 08 2012 at 3:07 AM Rating: Good
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ManifestOfKujata wrote:

First mention:
Prrsha wrote:

Oh, yes. I do own up to reporting people SELLING FC per hour for gil. According to the GMs I have spoken with, this is bannable. It's bannable in the same way as you can claim a NM and SELL the claim for GIL. As for FC parties for free? Nah, they don't care. Nor do they seem to care about those buy FCs.

I don't intend to know their logic in this, only that they do ban people that shout "FC in xxx for xxx gil for 7 hrs."

It's a good sign to see people offering others help to accomplish a similar goal or even help another. It's crosses the line when people SELL leveling parties to the desprate.

If you don't believe me, read the post you linked to.

To sum it up again. You SELL spots in jeuno via shouts you get banned. You OFFER spots in jeuno via shouts you don't.

On one occasion I had a player come back to me in a /tell a few days later saying he got a temp ban and was asked to please desist by a GM.

Edited, Jul 5th 2012 6:02pm by ManifestOfKujata

If that's true, then shouldn't all those end-game shells of old selling Sky and King drops for gil have been banned as well? It's equal to claiming an NM and selling the claim for gil, no? Or the new phenomenon of group of 5 selling Nyzul floor 100 clears for that matter.
#347 Jul 08 2012 at 4:27 AM Rating: Decent
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Serious question here:

How exactly is one individual or even an entire endgame Linkshell for that matter affected by another group of players having NNI on farm status using DAT swaps?

I mean think about it, there are plenty of scenarios where that very question has vastly different outcomes in other MMOs. Ie. Buying virtual currency, using 3rd party botting applications, win sharing in PvP, exploiting boss loopholes, etc etc. Yet, in FFXI... I just don't see it as an issue. Frankly, this is one of the only MMOs I have played over the years were, what another guild or even single player does via "cheating" never directly inhibits another player in a negative manner aside from a possible inconvenience.

A static NNI group that blazes through the content has absolutely ZERO effect on my end outcome. To be honest I get my panties more in a twist with fishbotters or even RMT FC parties than this, simply because it is far easier to conceive of a scenario of those activities inconveniencing me than a NNI speed run group.

Remind me how people getting to Floor 100 causes problems for me, because I just can't see it.
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#348 Jul 08 2012 at 5:27 AM Rating: Good
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Skewed sense of event balance?

Right now, I'd correlate this to Salvage pre-cell box or Einherjar when everything linked. Might people have won now and then? Sure. Did it make the event any more fun without them? Not really. Yet, should SE ever cast their eye on the event again, seeing a higher expected value of HQ armor will suggest that everything's A-OK and no work is needed. Needless to say, you'll find a lot of players who would disagree.

It might not hurt you directly, but it doesn't help. The social muck that comes up between the players themselves is just poo-flavored icing.

"But the stopper!" It's not an entry-level fix like the other mentioned events got. I'm gonna take a stab and say that SE didn't actually expect people to get to 100 so quickly, so having someone not only get that high, but exceed it is kind of telling on their launch with preventative measures and some common sense. I mean, nobody ever sat at the little dev pow wow and thought, "Hey guys, wouldn't it suck if someone landed on floor 101+ with a multi-jump and not see the end boss?" Nevermind the issue of actually getting there is where most of this bickering lies.
#349 Jul 08 2012 at 6:22 AM Rating: Good
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I don't think they'll really see the number of HQ gear out there and think the system is fine though. They know people cheat at it. People have been jailed, banned, etc because of it. I'd certainly hope that they realize the win rates are a bit skewed because of this.

The bigger issue is if they care enough to put this high enough on their priority list to do something about.
#350 Jul 08 2012 at 7:24 AM Rating: Good
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AFAIK, the only time people have been jailed or banned for this was when someone called a GM on them while they were in NI. There is no evidence that GMs are patrolling NI at all, but there is some evidence that JPs are randomly GMing every group that enters.
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#351 Jul 08 2012 at 7:49 AM Rating: Decent
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Seriha wrote:
Yet, should SE ever cast their eye on the event again, seeing a higher expected value of HQ armor will suggest that everything's A-OK and no work is needed.


The number of Coruscantis disagrees with you. I highly doubt SE checks the numbers of gear received to see if their event is working.
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