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Nyzul Uncharted: nice gear, cheater!Follow

#152 Jun 28 2012 at 1:44 PM Rating: Good
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Camiie wrote:
All I can really do is just tell them what they're doing wrong, tell them what I'd rather see, and don't do content I don't like.
You could stop giving them money hand over fist.
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#153 Jun 28 2012 at 1:51 PM Rating: Good
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lolgaxe wrote:
Camiie wrote:
All I can really do is just tell them what they're doing wrong, tell them what I'd rather see, and don't do content I don't like.
You could stop giving them money hand over fist.


Which then loses the ability to tell them much else other than having lost faith. Unfortunately, it seems a common Japanese gaming philosophy to disregard the input of fans for the sake of maintaining an artistic vision. And while MMOs are a form of creative expression, they're also more than that.
#154 Jun 28 2012 at 1:52 PM Rating: Good
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lolgaxe wrote:
Camiie wrote:
All I can really do is just tell them what they're doing wrong, tell them what I'd rather see, and don't do content I don't like.
You could stop giving them money hand over fist.


And thus quitting becomes the alternative to "cheating."
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#155 Jun 28 2012 at 2:09 PM Rating: Decent
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Byrthnoth wrote:
Camiie wrote:
Look at the Salvage dupers. They were banned for cheating to obtain something which is now largely irrelevant. Why did they cheat? Because they felt the event was unfair in some way and they deserved the gear for having to suffer through such a horrid event and for putting up with all of SE's crap over the years. Sounds familiar.


Almost all the gear from that era is totally irrelevant now, including the gear of those who were not banned. Between people who duped and those that didn't do Salvage, it's not hard to guess which had more fun in Salvage. Ignoring content because it's impossible or the reward/effort ratio is too low makes it so the content may as well not have been added.


What about those like me who did Salvage rather religiously and didn't dupe (and thus can still play the game)? I'd say I'm having more fun than the banned dupers are as far as FFXI is concerned.

Quote:
If people are content to do Neo-Nyzul for a year with a ~5% chance of winning and find that fun, then the reward/effort ratio of this event isn't bad for them. Most people aren't like that, though.


See, I think I'm being mistaken for someone who's like that. That couldn't be further from the truth. If it were up to me then entire game would be Abyssea-style. While I don't mind a reasonable challenge, I am not ashamed of easy-mode either.

Quote:
I personally wish there was some way for players to make Legion's effort/reward ratio higher. As it stands, I've entered Legion once. Think of the fun I could be having if there was some way to make the event worthwhile. Oh well.


I wish it were better as well. I'd love to have more FUN stuff to do. Ain't nothing I can do to change it though except give SE grief over it.

Camiie wrote:
People just need to admit the truth. It's all about the gear. This isn't some fight against The Man holding them down in the virtual ghetto. It has nothing to do with fixing a broken UI. They want gear. They don't like how the distribution system works. They cheat the system. It's absolutely nothing more than greed and entitlement.


Quote:
First off, it's hard to be greedy in a system that rewards everyone that enters equally. Unless you're relying on the "You're cheating, but you're cheating yourself and are oddly totally fine with it" strained logic, this paragraph is pretty much DOA. Who gets screwed over when someone .dat swaps in NI?


Anyone who doesn't or can't I suppose.

Quote:
SE patches the event slower? We seem to be in agreement that that is not the case. People have to suffer the marginally increased performance of their shout Voidwatch party members? That doesn't seem like screwing someone over at all.


And if the membership of that party is down to someone who's willing/able to cheat versus someone who's not then obviously the cheater has a clear advantage. Of course the leader will take the person with superior gear if given the choice. I guess that never happens though, or if it does it's the non-cheater's fault for not cheating to stay ahead or playing on a console.

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Secondly, I guess, gear is the incentive to do every event. People hunt gear and improve their characters because it's fun. Again, comparing it to Legion where there is very little/no gear I want and which relies on an infeasible multi-alliance structure for NA/EU players in this day and age, I wish there were more worthwhile rewards or less effort involved so people would actually do the event. As it is, the effort required is huge (no one wants to go back to big LSs) and the rewards are pretty small (Abjurations that no one can HQ? Mage gear, when Mages are mostly useful in Legion? Why bother?) Furthermore, of the few NA/EU shells large enough to do Legion on my server (two?), I don't think either have won a chamber yet. You wanted elitism? There you have it. If only we could .dat swap bad design away there too.


No gear is worth it if the process to obtain it isn't fun and no event that forces me to alter game mechanics just to have a chance is worth doing IMO.

lolgaxe wrote:
Camiie wrote:
All I can really do is just tell them what they're doing wrong, tell them what I'd rather see, and don't do content I don't like.
You could stop giving them money hand over fist.


Then I wouldn't get to do the content I do like. It's too bad individual events aren't a la carte.

Edited, Jun 28th 2012 4:11pm by Camiie
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#156 Jun 28 2012 at 2:11 PM Rating: Decent
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Seriha wrote:
Which then loses the ability to tell them much else other than having lost faith.
Has your faith paid off yet?
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#157 Jun 28 2012 at 2:14 PM Rating: Excellent
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Nyzul Uncharted where you know you have a chance to win is fun as hell.
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#158 Jun 28 2012 at 2:54 PM Rating: Decent
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Camiie wrote:
What about those like me who did Salvage rather religiously and didn't dupe (and thus can still play the game)? I'd say I'm having more fun than the banned dupers are as far as FFXI is concerned.


If SE had credit card, billing address, or name banned then you might be correct. They didn't, though, so anyone who wanted to come back after the Salvage bans probably enjoyed Abyssea (and the following quasi-content) just as much as you. I can think of three players that resubscribed literally the day of the Salvage bans using the same credit card, name, and billing address. They've all quit since then, but that was a result of Voidwatch and Tanaka rather than SE doing any kind of follow-up on their bans.

Camiie wrote:
Quote:
Who gets screwed over when someone .dat swaps in NI?


Anyone who doesn't or can't I suppose.


I don't get it. .dat swaps are pretty much an essential tool for the event (due to SE's poor design). People that are unwilling or unable to use the tool are certainly a liability for runs, and that's just reality. My group more than doubled our win rate when our non-swapping members quit of their own accord. Is this good design? No. Is SE going to fix it? Probably not. Groups with 3/6 swappers can definitely still win (and I did), so it isn't like this is a total lockout. Static with your friends and make sure that some of them are less morally involved in FFXI than yourself.

Camiie wrote:
And if the membership of that party is down to someone who's willing/able to cheat versus someone who's not then obviously the cheater has a clear advantage. Of course the leader will take the person with superior gear if given the choice. I guess that never happens though, or if it does it's the non-cheater's fault for not cheating to stay ahead or playing on a console.


Do your voidwatch shouters really scrutinize player's gear sets? As someone who occasionally sets up VW shouts, I really really doubt it.

On my server, the bad shouters shout for R/M/E and the good shouters just keep a list of people not to invite. Personally, when I shout I just ask my LS (like 5 people who also set up Voidwatch shouts) if the person is so bad that we can't accommodate them. Typically I can take about the first 3-4 bad players that respond and try to move them to less essential jobs, but then I get more picky because we need the damage and procs to come from somewhere. Not to mention that the difference between good and bad players is typically much wider than NI gear.

Camiie wrote:
No gear is worth it if the process to obtain it isn't fun and no event that forces me to alter game mechanics just to have a chance is worth doing IMO.


Okay, but this comes back to the "SE is so incompetent that I'm quitting" response to Neo-NI. I agree that SE is incompetent for releasing this event, but your hands are not tied behind your back. You can fix it. I agree you shouldn't have to, but if you want to keep playing your $13-a-month interactive AIM and have something to do, you might consider looking into it. As detlef points out, Neo-NI is actually pretty fun if you re-balance it in whatever way suits you.

Edited, Jun 28th 2012 4:54pm by Byrthnoth
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#159 Jun 28 2012 at 3:33 PM Rating: Decent
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Byrthnoth wrote:
lolgaxe wrote:
Camiie wrote:
All I can really do is just tell them what they're doing wrong, tell them what I'd rather see, and don't do content I don't like.
You could stop giving them money hand over fist.


And thus quitting becomes the alternative to "cheating."


No.

Simply not doing the event is the alternative to cheating. If not one single person did Nyzul Isle Uncharted then SE would face up to the fact it's too hard and do something about it.

Also, if Nyzul Isle Uncharted is the only single reason you play the game, then you should probably go ahead and quit as if you're solely logging on just to do that, then the game isn't worth paying for.
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#160 Jun 28 2012 at 3:41 PM Rating: Default
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jtftaru wrote:
What is the @#%^ing point of cheating in a game like this? The only person you're cheating is yourself.

The game is doing the events to get the stuff. If you cheat you're just giving money to SE not to play the game.

Why don't these people just pay their money then go and play on the test server? Then they could have everything they want without having to do anything for it.


Zelduh wrote:
Downrange wrote:
I'm surprised to see community regulars come here and admit to cheating. And the excuses are not clever or noble, they are the same tired rationalizations used by cheaters since forever. It takes a lifetime to build a reputation and one thoughtless act to destroy it.


How is this a surprise? It's always the most vocal members of the community who are the biggest cheaters. Just look at Blue Gartr, it's the popular "cool" people who openly admit to cheating, LOVE cheating, and lol at peasants who are inferior because they don't cheat, use bots, or buy accounts/gil. Same applies to this forum, most of the "regulars" are cheating whores whining that Nyzul is hardddddd so they're perfectly justified in cheating. Cheaters gonna cheat.


Some of the wisest words ever spoken in these forums in a looong time.

To all the people who hack, cheat, exploit, a big F and U to you all. I really really hope SE bans you all and you never get to see FFXI ever again. I am really tired of these kinds of people that ruin great MMOs and other games. If you don't like the content there in FFXI, don't do it. Simple as that. It is THEIR game, not yours. THEIR rules, not yours. You just pay to play the game as they see fit, like it or not. You did sign up for that in the EULA. You don't like FFXI? Make suggestions and hope they listen and change it. Post on forums. But, please don't cheat. The very same people who hack, bot, etc, also complain about RMTers and such. The hacks you use and make popular give them the very same tools to make your "gaming experience"... lackluster.

Here's hoping that SE decides to make a program that detects these new/old hacks and bans ya. Go play Monopoly by yourself and give yourself every property and reroll the dice until the cows come home.

If I offended anyone... well... I feel this strongly about this topic.
#161 Jun 28 2012 at 4:19 PM Rating: Good
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Prrsha wrote:
To all the people who hack, cheat, exploit, a big F and U to you all. I really really hope SE bans you all and you never get to see FFXI ever again. I am really tired of these kinds of people that ruin great MMOs and other games.

They don't ruin the game for you as much as you seem to think. If they do, then it should be very easy to spot them and point them out, no? Aside from very blatant botting (running at flee speed through town, going right through walls in front of you, etc), you'd likely never know that somebody is using a 3rd party tool of some sort. In fact, I'd be willing to bet you've benefited from it in the past without even knowing it. The vast majority of things are harmless to others and will never affect anyone but themselves. That's not to say some aren't clearly affecting others' game play and putting them at a severe disadvantage (such as seeing VNMs, which is back again), and those I do agree that people have a reason to be upset.

If they were to ban everyone that ever broke the tos via hacks cheats and exploits of any sort (this would include unofficial windower), the world of vana'diel would be a very, very lonely place.
#162 Jun 28 2012 at 6:35 PM Rating: Excellent
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jtftaru wrote:
If not one single person did Nyzul Isle Uncharted then SE would face up to the fact it's too hard and do something about it.

Ballista, Brenner, Pankration, Garrison, Expeditionary Force, SCNM, Evolith, ANNM, and Succor to the Sidhe beg to differ. Not that it justifies cheating, but betting on SE facing up to something is...extremely optimistic.
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#163 Jun 28 2012 at 6:46 PM Rating: Decent
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Aliekber wrote:
jtftaru wrote:
If not one single person did Nyzul Isle Uncharted then SE would face up to the fact it's too hard and do something about it.

Ballista, Brenner, Pankration, Garrison, Expeditionary Force, SCNM, Evolith, ANNM, and Succor to the Sidhe beg to differ. Not that it justifies cheating, but betting on SE facing up to something is...extremely optimistic.


Most of those are just novelty side games which drop nothing worthwhile.

If no one did an endgame event like Limbus, Salvage, Dynamis or the original Nyzul, SE would make changes.
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#164 Jun 28 2012 at 7:21 PM Rating: Good
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jtftaru wrote:
Byrthnoth wrote:
lolgaxe wrote:
Camiie wrote:
All I can really do is just tell them what they're doing wrong, tell them what I'd rather see, and don't do content I don't like.
You could stop giving them money hand over fist.


And thus quitting becomes the alternative to "cheating."


No.

Simply not doing the event is the alternative to cheating. If not one single person did Nyzul Isle Uncharted then SE would face up to the fact it's too hard and do something about it.

Also, if Nyzul Isle Uncharted is the only single reason you play the game, then you should probably go ahead and quit as if you're solely logging on just to do that, then the game isn't worth paying for.

Considering that there's precious little new content (at least until Adoulin next year), you basically just said the answer is to quit.
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#165 Jun 28 2012 at 8:00 PM Rating: Good
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Banalaty wrote:
So wtf is 'the oppositions' damn point? Everyone that dat swaps needs to get down on one knee and beg for forgiveness? Everyone agrees this sh*t is a miserable excuse for content. Everyone recognizes SE isn't going to be responsive by any 'reasonable' measure of time or effect. Camp 1 Says @#%^ this. I'm taking sh*t into my own hands because SE has proven useless. Camp 2 is saying no guys! That's BAD try filing a formal complaint instead!
...

I don't know wtf the non cheaters are demanding from the cheaters. An apology? Of what value is that on the internet? Fight fir days in a thread until some Just admit it'? There is no justice in that. The event is still in accessible to any but the top. The event will still be reviled and hated. SE will still be unresponsive, but we have a moral victory on Alla gaiz! According to the logic proposed earlier in this thread, everyone bitching about cheaters should stop posting here and go make a stink on the official forums because that's how you enact change, and if SE doesn't dealbwith the evil hackers then you just didn't complain loud enough. So follow your own avice. This whole thread is ridiculous at this point.


I think all we 'demand' is for them to be honest. I actually have more respect for the guy who says "I cheat because I want the gear. No apologies". Don't give excuses to justify why you feel the need the cheat. "The system is too limited. It takes too long. Its too much work". Maybe its just me, but the first group doesn't seem to care whether others cheat or not. But the 2nd group seems to spend an awful lot of time trying to convince others that they should all cheat too.
#166 Jun 28 2012 at 8:15 PM Rating: Decent
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svlyons wrote:
jtftaru wrote:
Also, if Nyzul Isle Uncharted is the only single reason you play the game, then you should probably go ahead and quit as if you're solely logging on just to do that, then the game isn't worth paying for.

Considering that there's precious little new content (at least until Adoulin next year), you basically just said the answer is to quit.


So you're saying if Nyzul Isle Uncharted was easier you'd log on and do that all day every day and nothing else and that's what people want to do? I find that hard to believe.

For anyone who genuinely logs on solely to do one single event they are probably best quitting or taking a break as the game isn't worth it anymore.
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#167 Jun 28 2012 at 8:17 PM Rating: Decent
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xantav wrote:
I actually have more respect for the guy who says "I cheat because I want the gear. No apologies". Don't give excuses to justify why you feel the need the cheat. "The system is too limited. It takes too long. Its too much work". Maybe its just me, but the first group doesn't seem to care whether others cheat or not. But the 2nd group seems to spend an awful lot of time trying to convince others that they should all cheat too.


Exactly.

Give this man a cookie. And not just a normal cookie like a Ginger Cookie but a good one like a Wizard Cookie.
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#168 Jun 28 2012 at 8:43 PM Rating: Good
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It's a group event. Either you all agree that come circumvention is allowable and necessary, or you probably just don't do the event. That's why one must be open about what's acceptable to them, and be damned of what others (read; people not doing the event) might call cheating.

Edited, Jun 28th 2012 7:44pm by Raelix
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#169 Jun 28 2012 at 10:08 PM Rating: Excellent
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jtftaru wrote:
Aliekber wrote:
jtftaru wrote:
If not one single person did Nyzul Isle Uncharted then SE would face up to the fact it's too hard and do something about it.

Ballista, Brenner, Pankration, Garrison, Expeditionary Force, SCNM, Evolith, ANNM, and Succor to the Sidhe beg to differ. Not that it justifies cheating, but betting on SE facing up to something is...extremely optimistic.


Most of those are just novelty side games which drop nothing worthwhile.

If no one did an endgame event like Limbus, Salvage, Dynamis or the original Nyzul, SE would make changes.


I think WoE is actually evidence of that - they did make a number of changes to it. People still don't do it - but considering it didn't take me too long to shout up some folks interested in it BEFORE they removed medal cooldown and added auto-temps for fluxes, I doubt it would be too hard to get people in there. And now that I see some fairly common drops selling for over 500K it seems semi worth it to do so.
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#170 Jun 29 2012 at 6:01 AM Rating: Good
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jtftaru wrote:
xantav wrote:
I actually have more respect for the guy who says "I cheat because I want the gear. No apologies". Don't give excuses to justify why you feel the need the cheat. "The system is too limited. It takes too long. Its too much work". Maybe its just me, but the first group doesn't seem to care whether others cheat or not. But the 2nd group seems to spend an awful lot of time trying to convince others that they should all cheat too.


Exactly.

Give this man a cookie. And not just a normal cookie like a Ginger Cookie but a good one like a Wizard Cookie.
That's disingenuous. Someone who cheats simply for the gear is going to whether the event is fair or not.

Agree with the methods or don't, the players choosing to cheat in this instance decide to do so because the event is incredibly rigged. The gear is no doubt still a factor, but a minor factor compared to the event itself.
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#171 Jun 29 2012 at 6:14 AM Rating: Decent
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SunriderRagnarok wrote:
jtftaru wrote:
xantav wrote:
I actually have more respect for the guy who says "I cheat because I want the gear. No apologies". Don't give excuses to justify why you feel the need the cheat. "The system is too limited. It takes too long. Its too much work". Maybe its just me, but the first group doesn't seem to care whether others cheat or not. But the 2nd group seems to spend an awful lot of time trying to convince others that they should all cheat too.


Exactly.

Give this man a cookie. And not just a normal cookie like a Ginger Cookie but a good one like a Wizard Cookie.
That's disingenuous. Someone who cheats simply for the gear is going to whether the event is fair or not.

Agree with the methods or don't, the players choosing to cheat in this instance decide to do so because the event is incredibly rigged. The gear is no doubt still a factor, but a minor factor compared to the event itself.


What's that got to do with his point? He's pointing out that cheaters not only want to cheat but they spend all their time trying to justify it and make it out to be something it's not and want everyone to respect them for it.

The fact an event is too hard is no excuse to cheat. People have pointed out explicitly - if you want to cheat then do so. Just don't expect decent players to treat it as anything but what it is - cheating.
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#172 Jun 29 2012 at 6:49 AM Rating: Good
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You speak as if the act itself precludes any justification thereof; as if there were no difference between theft out of malice and theft out of desperation, no difference between premeditated murder and murder for self defense. There may not be an excuse for cheating, but there is definitely a reason. Their methods may be suspect (I'd suppose a boycott of the event as a more pointed message to the devs), but the reasons still matter, and are not in this case invalidated by resulting methods.

I'm curious what decent players have to do with all this. I consider myself pretty decent, and I couldn't give a damn what they do.
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#173 Jun 29 2012 at 7:12 AM Rating: Decent
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SunriderRagnarok wrote:
Agree with the methods or don't, the players choosing to cheat in this instance decide to do so because the event is incredibly rigged. The gear is no doubt still a factor, but a minor factor compared to the event itself.


If there were no gear, or the gear was subpar, no one would bother to cheat. The gear is by far the primary reason. They're not cheating just to take a stand against unreasonably designed content. That's just a justification.
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#174 Jun 29 2012 at 7:35 AM Rating: Decent
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Camiie wrote:
SunriderRagnarok wrote:
Agree with the methods or don't, the players choosing to cheat in this instance decide to do so because the event is incredibly rigged. The gear is no doubt still a factor, but a minor factor compared to the event itself.


If there were no gear, or the gear was subpar, no one would bother to cheat. The gear is by far the primary reason. They're not cheating just to take a stand against unreasonably designed content. That's just a justification.

No one would be participating in the event at all if there was no gear to be had. It wouldn't matter how well designed the event was, gear is what motivates players to participate in content. I'm not sure what you're trying to get at here.
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#175 Jun 29 2012 at 7:55 AM Rating: Good
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I'd make a .dat swap for Revitalization Team (MMM) if it made the event worthwhile for people and fixed bad game design. I wouldn't personally do the event (nor would most anyone else), but I wouldn't feel bad about .dat swapping it. Fynlar and one of his friends are the only people I've known who have even attempted the event because the rewards are so atrocious.

I did normal NI for years for gear and for 150,000 tokens. I knew the entire time that it was possible to .dat swap lamps like this and that fillmode was helpful, but I only started even playing with fillmode on the last ~6 tags (and it probably hurt me as much as helped me until I figured out how to stop running into walls). I didn't swap lamps until Neo-NI came out even though I had all the tools to do it and had written a guide on how it was done. If I'm such a vile cheater that's just in it for the gear and the easy-mode button, why didn't I go full-out on old NI? Because it wasn't necessary. The event was fun and I was satisfied with the effort/reward ratio.

Edited, Jun 29th 2012 10:00am by Byrthnoth
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#176 Jun 29 2012 at 8:08 AM Rating: Excellent
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More fail phone posts.

"The fact that an event is tobhard is no excuse to cheat"

Technical complaint: flipping a coin 10 times and landing heads 10 times is not HARD. Luck based events are not hard events. Its not that the event is to difficult. Its that its luck based. Slot machines aren't hard. Lotterys aren't hard. Throwing a football through a hole 1 millimeter larger diameter than the ball is HARD. Hard means there is some skill required that would prevent success you must master (or set of skills, physical or mental).

"Dang another run of 2-3 jumps!" has nothing to do with being hard. No one is saying they cheat because its to HARD. (this also kills that tired argument that cheaters demand hard content just to cheat through it anyway). NI was never HARD. Just excessively luck based.

Stop saying flipping a coin 10times on heads is hard. Flipping a coin is frickin EASY. Justifications or moral stuff or whatever the hell somones angle is, no ones cheating because the event is challenging. Its a stroll through dc mobs and squishy mms. Its running a race in 30 min where the course is either long or short every time you run it without ryme ore reason
/endrant.
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#177 Jun 29 2012 at 8:58 AM Rating: Excellent
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Fynlar wrote:
SCH actually gets to cheat with regard to enhancing skill... just by being lv99 and putting Light Arts on, you're already over the 400 mark needed for 5/tic regain on Embrava. With 8 enhancing merits, you're already at the 420 mark, if I'm not mistaken. To go beyond that, you need gear.

Leveling the skill itself is really mainly for the WHMs and BLMs out there.

Well this thread had turned into moral debate in the few days I didn't check forums but gonna reply to this anyways. Sadly merits don't count before you cap your skill. Gear doesn't either. That baffled me to no end till I (pretty much accidentally) capped sch's enhancing. I was so sure it was just broken. ^^;;

Sch only needs to cap it for "no arts" state tho. It's D or something. 330ish skill. Then it'll be 404 (capped) with arts on and 420 with merits and arts on.

Edit add: the haste difference between 420 and 404 is roughly 1.5%. Not enough that I'd turn down a friend because of it (but might a random stranger, since capping skills does show certain amount of dedication to the job as well).

Edited, Jun 29th 2012 11:02am by Sharain
#178 Jun 29 2012 at 9:42 AM Rating: Good
cidbahamut wrote:
Camiie wrote:
SunriderRagnarok wrote:
Agree with the methods or don't, the players choosing to cheat in this instance decide to do so because the event is incredibly rigged. The gear is no doubt still a factor, but a minor factor compared to the event itself.


If there were no gear, or the gear was subpar, no one would bother to cheat. The gear is by far the primary reason. They're not cheating just to take a stand against unreasonably designed content. That's just a justification.

No one would be participating in the event at all if there was no gear to be had. It wouldn't matter how well designed the event was, gear is what motivates players to participate in content. I'm not sure what you're trying to get at here.

People wouldn't do the event at all if the gear was a side-grade or not the best in some slots period. So while sunrider is right, people cheat becuase the event is poorly designed, people do the event becuase the gear is good. So since factor b, the need to cheat to take the luck out of the event as much as possible, is dependent on factor A, The desire to win within a reasonable chance to get the over-the-top-gear, gear is the reason people cheat.

Absent A we wouldn't be having this conversation. This would be another dead at release event like Walk of Echoes. So, Sunrider saying that the gear is only a small factor in why they cheat is just him/her trying to downplay it. To what end I don't know I am not gonna put words in his/her mouth. However that is the point Camile is trying to make.
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#179 Jun 29 2012 at 9:42 AM Rating: Excellent
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I'd make a .dat swap for Revitalization Team (MMM) if it made the event worthwhile for people and fixed bad game design. I wouldn't personally do the event (nor would most anyone else), but I wouldn't feel bad about .dat swapping it. Fynlar and one of his friends are the only people I've known who have even attempted the event because the rewards are so atrocious.


The only reason I went along with it is because this "friend" (who's probably the same person you're thinking of, maybe) just wanted to have another potential "Ixion" mob to try to fight. And we never even actually got far enough to be able to try it either. I don't know if he managed to finish it off on his own >_>

Quote:
Edit add: the haste difference between 420 and 404 is roughly 1.5%. Not enough that I'd turn down a friend because of it (but might a random stranger, since capping skills does show certain amount of dedication to the job as well).


Little percentages like that do matter in there, too. I'm sure almost everyone who's been doing HQ Nyzul a lot (cheaters or not) has got at least one story of winning/losing a run by a matter of seconds.

Edited, Jun 29th 2012 11:51am by Fynlar
#180 Jun 29 2012 at 12:12 PM Rating: Decent
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Banalaty wrote:
More fail phone posts.

"The fact that an event is tobhard is no excuse to cheat"

Technical complaint: flipping a coin 10 times and landing heads 10 times is not HARD. Luck based events are not hard events. Its not that the event is to difficult. Its that its luck based. Slot machines aren't hard. Lotterys aren't hard. Throwing a football through a hole 1 millimeter larger diameter than the ball is HARD. Hard means there is some skill required that would prevent success you must master (or set of skills, physical or mental).

"Dang another run of 2-3 jumps!" has nothing to do with being hard. No one is saying they cheat because its to HARD. (this also kills that tired argument that cheaters demand hard content just to cheat through it anyway). NI was never HARD. Just excessively luck based.

Stop saying flipping a coin 10times on heads is hard. Flipping a coin is frickin EASY. Justifications or moral stuff or whatever the hell somones angle is, no ones cheating because the event is challenging. Its a stroll through dc mobs and squishy mms. Its running a race in 30 min where the course is either long or short every time you run it without ryme ore reason
/endrant.


You're being pedantic, harping on word semantics. Whether you think the event is too hard or too luck based or whatever, the point is still the same.

Instead of simply refusing to do the event and giving SE time to fix it, you (or any other such person) has made the choice to cheat in whatever way suits you to beat the event and get a chance of obtaining the goodies; and most people don't care if you do this. Until such time as you get caught by SE (if ever) you do what you like.

What you cannot do is demand everyone not view you as a cheat or demand everyone think your reasoning for cheating is sound and view you as doing the right thing. Which part of this is so hard to understand?
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#181 Jun 29 2012 at 1:43 PM Rating: Good
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jtftaru wrote:
Instead of simply refusing to do the event and giving SE time to fix it, you (or any other such person) has made the choice to cheat in whatever way suits you to beat the event and get a chance of obtaining the goodies; and most people don't care if you do this. Until such time as you get caught by SE (if ever) you do what you like.

What you cannot do is demand everyone not view you as a cheat or demand everyone think your reasoning for cheating is sound and view you as doing the right thing. Which part of this is so hard to understand?

Sharing your viewpoint on a matter is not the same as demanding everyone else agree with it. The irony here is that you sound very demanding telling someone else that they can't be demanding, all over an issue that you said most people don't care about.
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#182 Jun 29 2012 at 2:16 PM Rating: Decent
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I just have to point out that while a lot of Nyzul is luck-based, a very significant amount is skill and gear-based. 6 melee RDMs could enter Nyzul 1000 times and win maybe once. Performance matters. Killing quickly matters (hello DRK SAM). Survivability matters (hello Embrava/Regen V). Quick buffs matter (no COR or BRD allowed). Moving quickly matters (powder boots/sprinter's drink). Communication matters (Skype). You need all of this if you want to succeed.

Also I want to point out that no groups that do Nyzul will have 100% win rates unless you use clipper. If you use lamp dats, skype, and a good working relationship with your group, you will have 25%-50% win rate with a good group. If your group is not good then you still won't win. Really, you won't.

I don't want to call specific posters out, but have you tried Nyzul or do you just read about it? What's being discussed is hardly an instant win button. It simply disables SE's instant lose button.
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#183 Jun 29 2012 at 4:13 PM Rating: Default
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ITT:

Quote:
I'm not a cheater! I only cheat when I can't win otherwise! Sure, I had cards up my sleeve, but I didn't even pull them out when I already had a winning hand!

Cheating only counts when you would have won without cheating, not when you cheat to win!


Didja ever think that maybe you aren't supposed to have a 100% success rate?

Events can be balanced around failure. If you have a 10%~ chance of winning and a 10%~ chance of getting the drop when you win, it's functionally identical to winning every time with a 1% droprate.

Neo-nyzul seems to be balanced around being way too 'hard' (read: chancy) to consistently win, while rewarding you richly when you finally do win.
#184 Jun 29 2012 at 4:50 PM Rating: Good
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ItsAMyri wrote:
Didja ever think that maybe you aren't supposed to have a 100% success rate?

Except you'll never have a 100% success rate. You can throw 4 relic DD + 2 SCH at it, flee hack, run through walls, change all the dats you want and neo nyzul can and will still @#%^ you with endless lamps and 2-3 jump floors if it feels like it. Even with 'cheating' and the absolute best possible setup, your success rate will still be far from perfect.

ITT: People who haven't actually done the event judging those who have.
#185 Jun 29 2012 at 4:52 PM Rating: Decent
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svlyons wrote:
jtftaru wrote:
Instead of simply refusing to do the event and giving SE time to fix it, you (or any other such person) has made the choice to cheat in whatever way suits you to beat the event and get a chance of obtaining the goodies; and most people don't care if you do this. Until such time as you get caught by SE (if ever) you do what you like.

What you cannot do is demand everyone not view you as a cheat or demand everyone think your reasoning for cheating is sound and view you as doing the right thing. Which part of this is so hard to understand?

Sharing your viewpoint on a matter is not the same as demanding everyone else agree with it. The irony here is that you sound very demanding telling someone else that they can't be demanding, all over an issue that you said most people don't care about.


That doesn't even make sense. Xantav has already summed up the difference perfectly when he said...

xantav wrote:
I think all we 'demand' is for them to be honest. I actually have more respect for the guy who says "I cheat because I want the gear. No apologies". Don't give excuses to justify why you feel the need the cheat. "The system is too limited. It takes too long. Its too much work". Maybe its just me, but the first group doesn't seem to care whether others cheat or not. But the 2nd group seems to spend an awful lot of time trying to convince others that they should all cheat too.


As for me personally, I have taken pains to stress in my posts that cheats can do as they please - which is the exact opposite of demanding they do anything. In the post you just replied to I just said 'Do what you like'. How is that demanding anything?

All I pointed out in addition to that was that the cheats have no power to make people think they are something noble and what they are doing is justified.

We have heard their arguments. They have been rejected. Now this thread is just copy and pasting. We didn't think what they do was acceptable back on page 1 - we still don't on page 4. If you want to be here on page 15 still trying to justify it, be my guest. I wouldn't dream of 'demanding' you stop posting - I would just advise that you're wasting your time.
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#186 Jun 29 2012 at 5:01 PM Rating: Decent
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Except you'll never have a 100% success rate. You can throw 4 relic DD + 2 SCH at it, flee hack, run through walls, change all the dats you want and neo nyzul can and will still @#%^ you with endless lamps and 2-3 jump floors if it feels like it. Even with 'cheating' and the absolute best possible setup, your success rate will still be far from perfect.

ITT: People who haven't actually done the event judging those who have.


Edgy post, bro!

You'll find that I actually said you don't and shouldn't have 100% success rate, though, so I have no idea what you're trying to argue about.

I'm not judging you for doing the event, I'm judging you for cheating at it and pretending it's OK.

I'm reminded of a recent magic tournament where this guy palmed a card that should have been at the bottom of his deck and then played it to win the game. Would you say that he was justified? He didn't cheat until it became clear that he needed to cheat to win, and there was no way he could have won without cheating.

That is the argument, is it not? That Neo-Nyzul is unwinnable without cheating? Since when does the fact that you can't win without cheating make cheating justified?
#187 Jun 29 2012 at 5:05 PM Rating: Good
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I cheated in a game of Duck Duck Goose, and I don't care who knows it.

/edgy
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#188 Jun 29 2012 at 5:41 PM Rating: Good
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Aliekber wrote:
I cheated in a game of Duck Duck Goose, and I don't care who knows it.

/edgy

Resist the Man, brah.
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#189 Jun 29 2012 at 9:26 PM Rating: Decent
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Reiterpallasch wrote:

ITT: People who haven't actually done the event cheated judging those who have.


FTFY Smiley: grin

Edit for quote too long! Smiley: smile

Edited, Jun 29th 2012 8:27pm by stupidmonkey
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#190 Jun 29 2012 at 10:29 PM Rating: Good
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I think you just illustrate our point even more clearly.

How aboyt you, yourself, go beat Neo Nyzul without any 'cheating' whatsoever. No Windower, no Spellcast, no .dats, no Clipper. Absolutely Vanilla.

Come back when you actually make a floor 100 run. I won't hold my breath. See you next year or so.
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#191 Jun 29 2012 at 10:54 PM Rating: Good
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Raelix wrote:
I think you just illustrate our point even more clearly.

How aboyt you, yourself, go beat Neo Nyzul without any 'cheating' whatsoever. No Windower, no Spellcast, no .dats, no Clipper. Absolutely Vanilla.

Come back when you actually make a floor 100 run. I won't hold my breath. See you next year or so.


I have done it. I have not won. I am surprisingly okay with that. Because I don't have to OMGWTFGIVEITTOMENOWWIN at everything I do. Sometimes the frustration makes me throw a controller, but guess what? I have been doing that with games for over 20 years now, and I survived.

It makes me laugh how people have been arguing FOR cheating.

This is a game. Games have rules. If you play the game, you follow the rules. It applies to every game, from Rock/Paper/Scissors to Poker to Tic Tac Toe. Watch Wargames, even THE COMPUTER hates the rules, and decides to play a different game, BECAUSE SOMETIMES THE RULES SUCK, but the rules make the game.

If you play Rock/Paper/Scissors, and use Sniper Rifle, guess what, YOU AREN'T PLAYING ROCK/PAPER/SCISSORS, you are essentially masturbating, because you have removed the whole journey, and just opted for the destination. If your argument is that you are playing rock/paper/scissors against This Guy, I would suggest moving on. Because hitting the robot that never loses with a hammer while it's back is turned is not a "win" at Rock/Paper/Scissors (Although it is probably a win against the inevitable robot revolution)
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#192 Jun 30 2012 at 12:13 AM Rating: Decent
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It's a game. SE doesn't drown a sack of dumb puppies because you bent the rules and did something an easier way.
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#193 Jun 30 2012 at 12:14 AM Rating: Good
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ItsAMyri wrote:
Didja ever think that maybe you aren't supposed to have a 100% success rate?

And that's why people say it's bad content. If you are sufficiently skilled, you should be able to have 100% success rate.
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#194 Jun 30 2012 at 12:22 AM Rating: Decent
Raelix wrote:
It's a game. SE doesn't drown a sack of dumb puppies because you bent the rules and did something an easier way.


Of course not. They drown a sack of kittens. It's always kittens. Sack of puppies are only used in character devises for Tom and Jerry,

also sylvan your kind of missing the point myr trying to make.Well you got most of it but your answer seems a bit narrow against Myr thought out reasoning, in saying as such that since the gear is 100% for the top floor. It's no different then clearing lets say... Voidwatch which has a less then 1% chance of dropping something for let's say a 90% plus chance of winning. The ratio is the same or better then voidwatch just applied to a different area.
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#195 Jun 30 2012 at 11:08 AM Rating: Good
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Laxedrane the Irrelevant wrote:
also sylvan your kind of missing the point myr trying to make.Well you got most of it but your answer seems a bit narrow against Myr thought out reasoning, in saying as such that since the gear is 100% for the top floor. It's no different then clearing lets say... Voidwatch which has a less then 1% chance of dropping something for let's say a 90% plus chance of winning. The ratio is the same or better then voidwatch just applied to a different area.

I'm not missing the point, because it is different. An effective drop rate of 1% describes the reward system, not the game play itself. It's better to have luck play a bunch of very small factors that will easily average out in a short period of time. Having luck play such a major role makes for bad game play.
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#196 Jun 30 2012 at 12:30 PM Rating: Decent
svlyons wrote:
Laxedrane the Irrelevant wrote:
also sylvan your kind of missing the point myr trying to make.Well you got most of it but your answer seems a bit narrow against Myr thought out reasoning, in saying as such that since the gear is 100% for the top floor. It's no different then clearing lets say... Voidwatch which has a less then 1% chance of dropping something for let's say a 90% plus chance of winning. The ratio is the same or better then voidwatch just applied to a different area.

I'm not missing the point, because it is different. An effective drop rate of 1% describes the reward system, not the game play itself. It's better to have luck play a bunch of very small factors that will easily average out in a short period of time. Having luck play such a major role makes for bad game play.

So your saying it's good game design if you have to kill a monster 100 time to get an item verse automatically bad game design becuase you have to attempt to clear an area and winning on the 100th time to get the item at a guaranteed rate?

You do realize by applying the luck to the game play and having skill to increase luck in our favor is closest square has ever given us to the reward system you and the like have been asking for, for years?

Let's look at nyzul in theory shall we. An luck based event where skill increase your likelihood of winning. The quality of gear is based on how you perform. The control square put on this is luck. Granted there is other ways to do this but in theory it should work just as both square and the players would like. However there are people skewing the data keeping square from adjusting properly. But heh yay full circle.

Hmm a great solution would be like an over-time. If you say clear floor 83 and jump to 90 but you time out. It will pull you back to floor 80 and give you 3 minutes to kill the boss there.(1 minute for each floor over capping at 5 minutes. Since you only clear 3 floor up you get 3 minutes.) That way you always walk away with something. And take advantage of the 25 clears to get a piece.

But ahh fever dreams.
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#197 Jun 30 2012 at 12:31 PM Rating: Decent
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Laxedrane the Irrelevant wrote:
Of course not. They drown a sack of kittens. It's always kittens. Sack of puppies are only used in character devises for Tom and Jerry

Speaking of, when I was growing up, it was always cats that were the "bad guys" and dogs that were the "good guys." Dogs and mice. Cats were always evil, even though they're easily the more adorable of animals by far. This always pissed me off somewhat.
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#198 Jun 30 2012 at 1:44 PM Rating: Default
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Erecia wrote:
Laxedrane the Irrelevant wrote:
Of course not. They drown a sack of kittens. It's always kittens. Sack of puppies are only used in character devises for Tom and Jerry

Speaking of, when I was growing up, it was always cats that were the "bad guys" and dogs that were the "good guys." Dogs and mice. Cats were always evil, even though they're easily the more adorable of animals by far. This always pissed me off somewhat.


Agreed.

Cats are better than dogs.
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#199 Jun 30 2012 at 3:44 PM Rating: Decent
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jtftaru wrote:
Erecia wrote:
Laxedrane the Irrelevant wrote:
Of course not. They drown a sack of kittens. It's always kittens. Sack of puppies are only used in character devises for Tom and Jerry

Speaking of, when I was growing up, it was always cats that were the "bad guys" and dogs that were the "good guys." Dogs and mice. Cats were always evil, even though they're easily the more adorable of animals by far. This always pissed me off somewhat.


Agreed.

Cats are better than dogs.

Oh, it's on.
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#200 Jun 30 2012 at 4:14 PM Rating: Decent
My guess would be is dogs are associated as "Man's best friend" and "Honorable" while cats come across freeloading and manipulative. So yeah the opposite of honorable? Evil I guess.
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#201 Jun 30 2012 at 4:19 PM Rating: Good
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