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Nyzul Uncharted: nice gear, cheater!Follow

#77 Jun 26 2012 at 6:07 AM Rating: Good
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Byrthnoth wrote:
Let's see. I host the .dat swap that everyone uses for neo Nyzul on my pastebin and update it when it breaks. Durrr? Yes. Use it you self-righteous idiots. If you're as holy as you pretend to be, one moving violation for flee hacking isn't going to lose you your account, and one undetectable .dat swap certainly isn't going to lose you anything more than your high horse. It's not 2005. We aren't living in glorious anticipation of SE's impending fixes to the obviously lacking UI. We aren't spending our energy begging SE to fix ground kings.


The venom from your response says much more than your post does. You're coming off as a self-righteous, holy crusader yourself. It's just that you're taking the vigilante approach to your crusade for justice and fairness.

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SE is too blind to see problems and too incompetent to fix them. Fix it yourself. It isn't hard. If you want to take the same route as Ground Kings (<a year ago?) and the UI (still to come), feel free to try and talk it out with them. Personally, I'll adjust the difficulty until the event is fun and then do it.


Fix? Adjust the difficulty? I think you're giving yourself a bit too much credit here. If you're justified in what you're doing, just call it what it is. You don't need a euphemism for it. "Neo-Nyzul is completely unfair and SE won't fix it, but **** if it doesn't have shiny loot, so I'm going to cheat to get it."
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#78 Jun 26 2012 at 7:22 AM Rating: Good
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Sharain wrote:
[helpful information!]


detlef wrote:
[more helpful information!]


Thank you both very much. I really appreciate the knowledge. ^^

I think I might give it a go. But... going to cap enhancing magic first. (OH JOY, Empyreal Paradox here I come.)
#79 Jun 26 2012 at 7:37 AM Rating: Good
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SCH actually gets to cheat with regard to enhancing skill... just by being lv99 and putting Light Arts on, you're already over the 400 mark needed for 5/tic regain on Embrava. With 8 enhancing merits, you're already at the 420 mark, if I'm not mistaken. To go beyond that, you need gear.

Leveling the skill itself is really mainly for the WHMs and BLMs out there.
#80 Jun 26 2012 at 7:40 AM Rating: Decent
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Camiie, you really don't know Byrth well enough to make those judgments. You are getting too personal in your criticism. I don't see venom in Byrth's response. I do see some indignation. I can understand why he would take the insult personally, it is pointed at him.

Byrth is one of the smartest and laid back players I've talked to. He has put in alot of time and effort to discover and share helpful information with the online community. I have not seen him post negative or derogatory comments on other players. I haven't seen elitism, bad manners or bad attitude from Byrth over many posts on Zam, BG, and FFxiah forums.

I'm thankful for the work Byrth and other players have done to enrich the FFXI player community.

Nyzul 2.0 has flaws in it's design. I don't think there are many here to disagree with that. I think a few user interface changes to help in that event are no big deal. I have not actually made a run on the event yet, but I expect I'll use fillmode and I've downloaded Byrth's dat mod files. The UI trouble in FFXI has been ongoing for a long time. SE has made a few baby steps to improve it recently, but it is still insufficient.

I don't condone flee hacking, as it can damage the play quality for other players. I don't see it as a big deal in Nyzul however. Its not a competitive part of the game like claiming ground kings has been.

As far as the argument about it affecting how SE perceives the quality of Nyzul 2.0 and how to adjust it, I don't believe that argument has a leg to stand on. SE has made plenty of historical precedent as far as how quickly or responsive they will be to details like Nyzul 2.0.

I think most ppl who complain about those getting gear in Nyzul 2.0 are jealous and pay just as much credit to showing off gear as the ones who do brag that they have better gear and criticize those who don't. The only difference is who has it and who doesn't.
I also think alot of the players who get on a high-horse about it, would use the same tools in many cases. I think the difference would be technical know-how or willingness to learn how to use the tools.
but I'm just guessing, Anyone reading might know if they fit this or not.

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#81 Jun 26 2012 at 7:45 AM Rating: Decent
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What you see as rules, I see as bad event design. You see it as a violation of the sanctity of FFXI dats. I see it as fixing an error that made it past the test server. It's obviously not something SE intended, but to each his own. If my accomplishments in game come with an asterisk to you because I was playing "FFXI, Byrthnoth Edition" instead of SE's FFXI, then that's fine with me.

By the way, /InigoMontoya. Where do I come off as "feeling morally superior" above? I'm advising people to cheat in order to make an event reasonable. Earlier in the thread I outlined the various gradations of cheating and what their outcomes were. I'm not saying you have to cheat, but we should at least be realistic about the odds of winning without cheating. In the thread I linked on the official forums, I laid out several options that SE could pursue to fix Neo-Nyzul. I want to see the game get better. I put in my two cents. Now the ball is in SE's court. I'm too impatient to wait the years it will take for them to fix this, so I fixed it myself in the meantime and have made that fix freely available to others. I hope that I'm wrong and SE fixes it next patch, but I'm not holding my breath.

If you were honestly asking that question despite my earlier posts on the subject, then sorry. The answer is yes. If you bypass the order floor's "lamps are turning on" animation delay (via .dats) and use fillmode (default windower feature, //fillmode once to turn it on and //fillmode again to turn it off) with an excellent party composed of the right players and don't give up, you have a reasonable chance of winning and everything you've used is undetected by SE (as far as we know). It makes the event difficult and still luck based but more reasonable. I would like to see SE change the event so that it depends more on gear/skill (increase monster level, decrease distance to 100) or party coordination (give 1 minute TEs for successful MBs of a Level 3 Skillchain or something). Unfortunately, a decade of FFXI has taught me not to wait for SE to address obvious design flaws that stand between enjoyable gameplay and me.

Edited, Jun 26th 2012 10:13am by Byrthnoth
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#82 Jun 26 2012 at 8:28 AM Rating: Good
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Xilk wrote:
Camiie, you really don't know Byrth well enough to make those judgments. You are getting too personal in your criticism. I don't see venom in Byrth's response. I do see some indignation. I can understand why he would take the insult personally, it is pointed at him.


So calling me a self-righteous idiot isn't insulting and personal? He knows me well enough to make that claim? Oh well, different standards for different posters I guess. At least I haven't been scolded by the mods yet.

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Byrth is one of the smartest and laid back players I've talked to. He has put in alot of time and effort to discover and share helpful information with the online community. I have not seen him post negative or derogatory comments on other players. I haven't seen elitism, bad manners or bad attitude from Byrth over many posts on Zam, BG, and FFxiah forums.

I'm thankful for the work Byrth and other players have done to enrich the FFXI player community.


Why do you think I expected better from him than hacks, cheats, insults, and weak justifications? I appreciate all that he and others have done as well. Lord knows, when it comes to math and strategy I'm an abject failure. No one enjoys helpful information more than someone like me. I need all the help I can get.

Does it earn him a lot of respect? Sure, of course it does. I do have respect for him despite how it may seem. Does hacking his way through Neo-Nyzul invalidate everything he's done? No. Does everything he's done justify hacking his way through Neo-Nyzul or being so defensive about it? Not to me.

Quote:
Nyzul 2.0 has flaws in it's design. I don't think there are many here to disagree with that. I think a few user interface changes to help in that event are no big deal. I have not actually made a run on the event yet, but I expect I'll use fillmode and I've downloaded Byrth's dat mod files. The UI trouble in FFXI has been ongoing for a long time. SE has made a few baby steps to improve it recently, but it is still insufficient.


Is the opacity of walls really a UI issue? They're not supposed to be see-through. And the lamps are supposed to look the same, and you're supposed to communicate to figure out what you're dealing with. The event is horribly flawed, the UI is primitive, and no one hates lamp floors more than me. I have never once disagreed with the idea that Neo-Nyzul is a sorry excuse for content. I only disagree in how the playerbase is handling it.

Quote:
I don't condone flee hacking, as it can damage the play quality for other players. I don't see it as a big deal in Nyzul however. Its not a competitive part of the game like claiming ground kings has been.


I think it becomes a problem when people who can't or won't cheat have to compete with people who do for party/ally spots. The stuff they obtain doesn't exist in a vacuum. It does have some affect on the game world.

Quote:
As far as the argument about it affecting how SE perceives the quality of Nyzul 2.0 and how to adjust it, I don't believe that argument has a leg to stand on. SE has made plenty of historical precedent as far as how quickly or responsive they will be to details like Nyzul 2.0.


I think it will have some bearing on how they'll create future content. Whether that's good or bad remains to be seen. If they see that there's more Neo-Nyzul 100 gear out there than they intended how will they react to that? Will they make the next uber set from the next event even harder to obtain? Can you not see SE doing something like that?

Quote:
I think most ppl who complain about those getting gear in Nyzul 2.0 are jealous and pay just as much credit to showing off gear as the ones who do brag that they have better gear and criticize those who don't. The only difference is who has it and who doesn't.
I also think alot of the players who get on a high-horse about it, would use the same tools in many cases. I think the difference would be technical know-how or willingness to learn how to use the tools.
but I'm just guessing, Anyone reading might know if they fit this or not.


I'm no bastion of virtue, and I'm not immune to jealously, but this isn't me. I can't prove that to you, so you'll obviously believe what you want and there's nothing I can do about it. I have zero problem with people who can get gear from Neo-Nyzul or anywhere else legitimately. If I had problems with everyone who was better geared (or just plain better) than me I'd have problems with a whole heck of a lot of people and I don't.
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#83 Jun 26 2012 at 8:45 AM Rating: Decent
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I don't see what the problem is.

SE refuses to fix sh*t, so players come up with fixes. This shouldn't be surprising or upsetting.

Edited, Jun 26th 2012 10:45am by cidbahamut
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#84 Jun 26 2012 at 10:27 AM Rating: Good
cidbahamut wrote:
I don't see what the problem is.

SE refuses to fix sh*t, so players come up with fixes. This shouldn't be surprising or upsetting.

Edited, Jun 26th 2012 10:45am by cidbahamut



The phrase "Self control" comes springing to mind. This whole subject and conversation reminds me eerily oh Phantasy Star online, which was absolutely murdered by people with the same mind set that eventually went out of control.

Also the longer this goes on the the more likely square will go after windower then adjusting nyzul.

Forget people who are now compromising their own morals now using "Beaten and broken" as an excuse like fynlar.
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#85 Jun 26 2012 at 10:35 AM Rating: Decent
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Laxedrane the Irrelevant wrote:

The phrase "Self control" comes springing to mind. This whole subject and conversation reminds me eerily oh Phantasy Star online, which was absolutely murdered by people with the same mind set that eventually went out of control.

Also the longer this goes on the the more likely square will go after windower then adjusting nyzul.

That would be akin to sawing your own feet off because your elbow itches.

The problem here is SE dishing out ****** game design and not fixing it promptly after they've been called out on it. Nothing more and nothing less.
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#86 Jun 26 2012 at 10:45 AM Rating: Excellent
cidbahamut wrote:
Laxedrane the Irrelevant wrote:

The phrase "Self control" comes springing to mind. This whole subject and conversation reminds me eerily oh Phantasy Star online, which was absolutely murdered by people with the same mind set that eventually went out of control.

Also the longer this goes on the the more likely square will go after windower then adjusting nyzul.

That would be akin to sawing your own feet off because your elbow itches.

The problem here is SE dishing out sh*tty game design and not fixing it promptly after they've been called out on it. Nothing more and nothing less.


How is it any different from when they banned hundreds of people for salvage duping then waited several years to adjust the drop rate? I am not saying square is right, I am not saying nyzul a good event. I am saying much like Camile. Is that the player base is being as much of a pack of idiots about this as square is. At the end of the day it's square who decides how they want it this game to be played. Everything people are doing in nyzul is a clear violation.(Those utilizing the dat swaps and flee hacking) and the exact same thing was said about the salvage. "There is no way they ban anyone" yet once square said they were gonna do something about it 3 months later people were banned in mass, including people who "just happened to be there."
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#87 Jun 26 2012 at 11:56 AM Rating: Good
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The event sucks, so I just decided not to do it. I realize that no one in the game cares about the gear I have or the things I accomplish other than me, and I'm getting along just find with 24 more levels under my belt to play the game with.

I wasn't stupid enough to think that enough people would also skip the event. Enough that SE would have to change it to make it more realistic. I knew there's not enough patient people in this game. I can only do my part.

As for the people running around in their cheated-to-obtain Nyzul Isle gear, just as they don't care about any of the gear I have, I don't care about any of the gear they have. Cheating in Nyzul Isle to get gear is absolutely zero different than not being able to beat an NM because you're just not good enough or don't have enough good gear or help, so you cheat to beat it.

It's easy to justify any amount of cheating if you want to. "I only buy gil because I work too much irl and don't have time to farm." "I only flee hack through walls to mine because SE put too much aggro around the points." Doesn't make any of it right.
#88 Jun 26 2012 at 12:26 PM Rating: Good
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I'm surprised to see community regulars come here and admit to cheating. And the excuses are not clever or noble, they are the same tired rationalizations used by cheaters since forever. It takes a lifetime to build a reputation and one thoughtless act to destroy it.
#89 Jun 26 2012 at 12:56 PM Rating: Excellent
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Problem with New Nyzul is that is is a Luck Based Mission

Salvage was also one. On salvage, the luck was simply on the SE Standard Drop Rates.

Nyzul adds insult to injury. Not only the drop rates are awful, but you are also completely dependent on luck to even complete it.

The whole design just makes cheating a whole lot more likely to happen.
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#90 Jun 26 2012 at 12:57 PM Rating: Good
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Here's my confession: via windower, I utilize ctrl+v in FFXI.
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#91 Jun 26 2012 at 1:01 PM Rating: Good
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zellbaca wrote:
Here's my confession: via windower, I utilize ctrl+v in FFXI.

CRIMINAL!
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#92 Jun 26 2012 at 1:20 PM Rating: Good
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It's a matter of execution and plausibility.

Lamp .dats solve the problem of solving lamps. Lamps shouldn't be half the problem they are, but are instead a totally random cockblock. Literally a random punch in the **** to a decent run. Even if you know the solution ahead of time, you still have to spread out, figure out what sort of lamps you're dealing with and how many, and deal with both agro and menu time at each.

Lamps have always been the most f*cked up thing to put in a time-critical event like Nyzul, and when Neo-Nyzul has people breaking out Relics and Embrava because of even more expressed time-criticality, you can see exactly how and why people will say 'F*ck. That. Sh*t.'

The problem with lamps isn't even solved by having the .dat mods. They will still **** up a run 50% of the time when everyone has to find a lamp or their own lamp, and that 50% is when flee/clip hacks come into play.

90% of the cheating in Nyzul is because of the ******* lamps.

Now, it's perfectly plausible to solve these lamps just as quickly with luck as if you had the .dat mods, and perfectly executable that everyone shows up at the right lamp at the right time. Unfortunately SE thinks this occurs with 'the right amount of luck' which is practically never.

This is why nobody with half a brain cares about these particular hacks in Neo-Nyzul. They're solving a broken-*** part of the game that SE is too stupid (Hanlon's Razor in full effect) to realize the absolute and crushing detriment of.

Nobody should care, because lamps are plain and simple bullsh*t.

Edited, Jun 26th 2012 12:28pm by Raelix
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#93 Jun 26 2012 at 1:46 PM Rating: Decent
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Laxedrane the Irrelevant wrote:
cidbahamut wrote:
Laxedrane the Irrelevant wrote:

The phrase "Self control" comes springing to mind. This whole subject and conversation reminds me eerily oh Phantasy Star online, which was absolutely murdered by people with the same mind set that eventually went out of control.

Also the longer this goes on the the more likely square will go after windower then adjusting nyzul.

That would be akin to sawing your own feet off because your elbow itches.

The problem here is SE dishing out sh*tty game design and not fixing it promptly after they've been called out on it. Nothing more and nothing less.

How is it any different from when they banned hundreds of people for salvage duping then waited several years to adjust the drop rate?

I think the difference is the size of the population. I don't remember if the big Salvage ban happened before either of the two rounds of server merges. But my guess is that this game had a larger population back then compared to right now. Banning the same amount of players now that they banned back then would have a greater impact today.

In addition to that, just think about what percentage of players likely were involved in shells that took advantage of the Salvage duping bug, and what percentage of players today use windower. We don't have accurate numbers of just how many players use windower. But it's probably a safe bet to say that a larger percentage of players today use windower compared to the percentage of players involved in the Salvage dupe scandal. Going after windower itself could wind up with a lot of collateral damage among players that use windower and have never even stepped foot into Neo-Nyzul.
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#94 Jun 26 2012 at 1:50 PM Rating: Good
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You know what Windower does? Solves the bullsh*t of not being able to alt-tab in a Windows environment.

You know what Spellcast does? Solves the bullsh*t of people wanting 100% optimization but only having six lines per macro.

Here's the best one:
You know what Wikis do? Solve the bullsh*t of nothing in this game being guided in the least and quests being sometimes totally random.

These are all methods of 'cheating' that I at least feel are perfectly justified because they solve SE-endorsed bullsh*t. Lamp .dats are pushing it a little, but in the same vein: SE is quite honestly too incompetent or arrogant to see the problem that induces the cheating.

We've tried calling SE in all these cases, and it just doesn't get anything done, so we deal with it ourselves.

So if you're gonna come around and start decrying, criminalizing, and witchhunting for Lamp .dats you'd best get on your high-horse campaign against Windower, Spellcast, and even Wiki use too, because everyone else using these things feel they are for good reason despite being 'cheating'.

Edited, Jun 26th 2012 12:53pm by Raelix
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#95 Jun 26 2012 at 2:51 PM Rating: Good
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TheKhory wrote:
Nyzul adds insult to injury. Not only the drop rates are awful, but you are also completely dependent on luck to even complete it.
I'd just like to point out that we never bring a THF to Neo-Nyzul. Yet when we hit boss floors, we almost* always see at least one drop and two pieces are more common. Unlike old Nyzul, the drop rate is actually pretty good- it's the problem of trying to get the 1 of 15 different pieces that you want is more of the problem. If you actually meant old Nyzul, then I take back my comment and agree with your statement.


*Almost only because even though I can't remember the last time there was no drop, I'm sure it has happened
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#96 Jun 26 2012 at 2:55 PM Rating: Excellent
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I'd be less annoyed about "luck" if it was a trait like it was in FFX that you could actually see and augment.
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#97 Jun 26 2012 at 3:10 PM Rating: Good
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xypin wrote:
TheKhory wrote:
Nyzul adds insult to injury. Not only the drop rates are awful, but you are also completely dependent on luck to even complete it.

I'd just like to point out that we never bring a THF to Neo-Nyzul. Yet when we hit boss floors, we almost* always see at least one drop and two pieces are more common. Unlike old Nyzul, the drop rate is actually pretty good- it's the problem of trying to get the 1 of 15 different pieces that you want is more of the problem. If you actually meant old Nyzul, then I take back my comment and agree with your statement.

*Almost only because even though I can't remember the last time there was no drop, I'm sure it has happened

Isn't it guaranteed for Neo Nyzul boss floors to have at least one drop? If everyone in the group already had the same piece of gear that the game decided to drop, I could see it appearing as if there was no drop (or that there was fewer drops than there actually should have been).
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#98 Jun 26 2012 at 3:28 PM Rating: Excellent
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svlyons wrote:
xypin wrote:
TheKhory wrote:
Nyzul adds insult to injury. Not only the drop rates are awful, but you are also completely dependent on luck to even complete it.

I'd just like to point out that we never bring a THF to Neo-Nyzul. Yet when we hit boss floors, we almost* always see at least one drop and two pieces are more common. Unlike old Nyzul, the drop rate is actually pretty good- it's the problem of trying to get the 1 of 15 different pieces that you want is more of the problem. If you actually meant old Nyzul, then I take back my comment and agree with your statement.

*Almost only because even though I can't remember the last time there was no drop, I'm sure it has happened
Isn't it guaranteed for Neo Nyzul boss floors to have at least one drop? If everyone in the group already had the same piece of gear that the game decided to drop, I could see it appearing as if there was no drop (or that there was fewer drops than there actually should have been).
Since I haven't recorded all ours drops, I was mostly covering my *** just in case it wasn't 100% for at least one piece.
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#99 Jun 26 2012 at 4:26 PM Rating: Good
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zellbaca wrote:
Here's my confession: via windower, I utilize ctrl+v in FFXI.


If only we could copy FROM FFXI also!! there are so many 'little things' which the UI lacks which REALLY add up.

I originally looked into windower so I could use the japanese IME with FFXI. and of course.. Windowed mode.. (SE's windowed mode sux like a Dyson!)
Then I saw a few other nifty plugins which just provided helpful information displayed on my screen so I didn't have to spam macro's to make decisions when to do something.
Then, I discovered spellcast's shorter commands for casting spells.. HALLELUJAH!
Lastly, it was the gear swapping element of spellcast which just made it much better! (Death to 6-line macros!)


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#100 Jun 26 2012 at 4:49 PM Rating: Decent
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TribalProphet wrote:

As for the people running around in their cheated-to-obtain Nyzul Isle gear, just as they don't care about any of the gear I have, I don't care about any of the gear they have. Cheating in Nyzul Isle to get gear is absolutely zero different than not being able to beat an NM because you're just not good enough or don't have enough good gear or help, so you cheat to beat it.


No. The fact that you said this shows you clearly know nothing about neo nyzul.
#101 Jun 26 2012 at 8:52 PM Rating: Decent
Raelix wrote:
You know what Windower does? Solves the bullsh*t of not being able to alt-tab in a Windows environment.

You know what Spellcast does? Solves the bullsh*t of people wanting 100% optimization but only having six lines per macro.

Here's the best one:
You know what Wikis do? Solve the bullsh*t of nothing in this game being guided in the least and quests being sometimes totally random.

These are all methods of 'cheating' that I at least feel are perfectly justified because they solve SE-endorsed bullsh*t. Lamp .dats are pushing it a little, but in the same vein: SE is quite honestly too incompetent or arrogant to see the problem that induces the cheating.

We've tried calling SE in all these cases, and it just doesn't get anything done, so we deal with it ourselves.

So if you're gonna come around and start decrying, criminalizing, and witchhunting for Lamp .dats you'd best get on your high-horse campaign against Windower, Spellcast, and even Wiki use too, because everyone else using these things feel they are for good reason despite being 'cheating'.

Edited, Jun 26th 2012 12:53pm by Raelix



Tell me, what Rpg, MMO, ANY GAME IN EXISTANCE. Allows you to automatically program something to re-equip your character the second you preform an action to the gear you presetted for that action? Then allows you to set special conditions like weather and day effects?

Also why are you listing something officially recognize by square as a downfall of square?

The lamp thing is cheat. No different from if you programmed a game to show what ,mobs the fakes and what ones are real when they split. No different then reducing every mob in an area to a dot on a floor besides the nm your looking for. It's the same ******* rationality people used for claim bots and everything like that. "Square made a ****** game by making a mob that pops only once every 3-5 days and only one of them." It wasn't right then, it isn't right now.
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