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Nyzul Uncharted: nice gear, cheater!Follow

#1 Jun 21 2012 at 2:06 AM Rating: Decent
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I'm seeing more and more people with not just one piece, but full sets of Phorcys/Thaumas gear.

Has new Nyzul been "figured out?" Have people practiced enough, revised strategies enough, and honed their skills enough that beating the Floor 100 boss is now do-able reliably?

Every time I see somebody in this gear, I'm inclined to think that they cheated to get it. Am I off base in assuming this? I'd like to hear from the people who have been spamming this event and are better informed about it than I am. Is it still next-to-impossible by legitimate means?

I realize that it is ***possible*** to get lucky with floor jumps and get to 100. For someone to have had that sort of luck often enough to get the whole set of gear just seems about as likely as hitting the mega-millions every single month.

#2 Jun 21 2012 at 2:16 AM Rating: Decent
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Every time I see somebody in this gear, I'm inclined to think that they cheated to get it. Am I off base in assuming this?


Possibly, yeah. It's conceivable that the others in their group were cheating to get through it, but not them. I don't run anything besides windower, and I've got some HQ Nyzul stuff.

So far, I haven't done a run of it where all the other people in the group appeared to be playing legit. Most were running faster than they should normally be able to, among other things.

But, I can't control what other folks do, and I personally don't think it's fair that I should have to resign myself to not take part in new content and receive its rewards just because others might cheat at it. To me it's like trying to go for a complete Pokedex in a Pokemon game; assuming you are trying to do things "legit" and not Gameshark any of your 'mons or something, eventually you are going to trade with other people that most likely duped or hacked their 'mons somehow, particularly for the ones like Mew/Celebi which are only "officially" released at sanctioned Nintendo events and such which aren't available to everyone out there, which essentially means you are completing your Pokedex thanks to the cheatings of others, meaning you can't really win either way. Whether or not people will consider that cheating by extension is up to the individual.

Honestly, making events like this that are incredibly luck-based and don't have any other players outside of your party watching what you do is just begging for people to whip out the hax. And since they refuse to do anything about the event to help make people feel like they don't have to keep cheating at it to win... well, people are going to keep cheating at it to win. Big surprise there.

Edited, Jun 21st 2012 4:25am by Fynlar
#3 Jun 21 2012 at 3:20 AM Rating: Excellent
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Fynlar wrote:
Honestly, making events like this that are incredibly luck-based and don't have any other players outside of your party watching what you do is just begging for people to whip out the hax. And since they refuse to do anything about the event to help make people feel like they don't have to keep cheating at it to win... well, people are going to keep cheating at it to win. Big surprise there.

I'm hoping that they made this as random as it is in order to just artificially induce rarity in the gear, which is a terrible and lazy design anyway, and not because they think this is a legitimate way to design events that players deserve. At least the first reason is less insulting to a playerbase.
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#4 Jun 21 2012 at 3:50 AM Rating: Excellent
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I remember there was a time when SE suddenly started to mass-ban people who used to cheat in Salvage to get more gear drops. I really wonder what will happen once SE realizes how many people are cheating again in Nyzul isle. Of course Nyzul uncharted is very bad game design, i tried it a few times myself, and i can see why people cheat in there. But the amount of characters running around in Port Jeuno in full sets is just unreal.

I´d really like to have some pieces myself, but at the same time i´m quite horrified about getting my char deleted for obvious reasons. I don´t think that if they do something about it there is a chance to say "oh sory, but i didn´t do anything, i was just the SCH waiting at runinc lamp blabla".

Edited, Jun 21st 2012 5:50am by Mosel
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#5 Jun 21 2012 at 3:57 AM Rating: Excellent
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CorncobWilly wrote:
Has new Nyzul been "figured out?" Have people practiced enough, revised strategies enough, and honed their skills enough that beating the Floor 100 boss is now do-able reliably?

Every time I see somebody in this gear, I'm inclined to think that they cheated to get it. Am I off base in assuming this? I'd like to hear from the people who have been spamming this event and are better informed about it than I am. Is it still next-to-impossible by legitimate means?

I realize that it is ***possible*** to get lucky with floor jumps and get to 100. For someone to have had that sort of luck often enough to get the whole set of gear just seems about as likely as hitting the mega-millions every single month.

9/10 times, you're right in your assumptions... Probably even closer to 10/10.

A lot of the time though it's the same situation that Fynlar mentioned, where someone will join a shout join, and notice that everyone else is somehow moving at flee speed, or something like that. Though it's not like the people that are cheating go around advertising it, the closest you'll see is a shout in Port Jeuno "(Nyzul Isle) Uncharted (Do you need it?) (Scholar) x2 (Yes, please) must have Skype."

Not that I can blame the people that do cheat though, the devs put some of the best gear in the game at floor 100, make it near impossible to get there, and then insist multiple times that "It can be done with a little luck and a well equipped party." What they conveniently forget is that "luck" can be replaced with "cheating", and with limited attempts at the event, nobody wants to go with anything other than 2 SCHs and 4 Legendary weapon holding WARs or SAMs, effectively tossing "well-equipped party" out the window and replacing it with "Four players spamming Ukko's Fury or Fudo/Shoha." The devs seems to be unwilling to budge on the issue. They know that the large majority or people that have this gear got it as a result of cheating, and they know that getting to/winning floor 100 is near impossible as is. As they refuse to acknowledge either of these points, it's clear what message that they're sending to the playerbase...

Edited, Jun 21st 2012 4:59am by KodoReturns
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#6 Jun 21 2012 at 6:06 AM Rating: Good
From all of the forums I have been reading, it seems that lamp .dat mods are the most common thing people are using/doing in Neo-Nyzul. The 2nd is flee hacks and moving thru walls. There are people selling Neo-Nyzul wins now and swear they are only using the lamp .dat mods and nothing else. Movement speed gear is a must, along with floor jump luck.
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#7 Jun 21 2012 at 7:11 AM Rating: Excellent
KodoReturns wrote:
CorncobWilly wrote:
Has new Nyzul been "figured out?" Have people practiced enough, revised strategies enough, and honed their skills enough that beating the Floor 100 boss is now do-able reliably?

Every time I see somebody in this gear, I'm inclined to think that they cheated to get it. Am I off base in assuming this? I'd like to hear from the people who have been spamming this event and are better informed about it than I am. Is it still next-to-impossible by legitimate means?

I realize that it is ***possible*** to get lucky with floor jumps and get to 100. For someone to have had that sort of luck often enough to get the whole set of gear just seems about as likely as hitting the mega-millions every single month.

9/10 times, you're right in your assumptions... Probably even closer to 10/10.

A lot of the time though it's the same situation that Fynlar mentioned, where someone will join a shout join, and notice that everyone else is somehow moving at flee speed, or something like that. Though it's not like the people that are cheating go around advertising it, the closest you'll see is a shout in Port Jeuno "(Nyzul Isle) Uncharted (Do you need it?) (Scholar) x2 (Yes, please) must have Skype."

Not that I can blame the people that do cheat though, the devs put some of the best gear in the game at floor 100, make it near impossible to get there, and then insist multiple times that "It can be done with a little luck and a well equipped party." What they conveniently forget is that "luck" can be replaced with "cheating", and with limited attempts at the event, nobody wants to go with anything other than 2 SCHs and 4 Legendary weapon holding WARs or SAMs, effectively tossing "well-equipped party" out the window and replacing it with "Four players spamming Ukko's Fury or Fudo/Shoha." The devs seems to be unwilling to budge on the issue. They know that the large majority or people that have this gear got it as a result of cheating, and they know that getting to/winning floor 100 is near impossible as is. As they refuse to acknowledge either of these points, it's clear what message that they're sending to the playerbase...

Edited, Jun 21st 2012 4:59am by KodoReturns



The problem is, by cheating these people are causing bad Data for SE. For a second let's assume SE is wearing a dunce cap on the situation as far as cheating. Now they see that an acceptable amount of people are winning and getting gear.and they won't adjust nyzul until way farther down the line.

The other scenario is they'll go the same route as salvage.once they find a way to prove people are doing this, (Aka more then ok we know it;s going on) Suspend and ban people as they see fit, Then they'll look at the un-tainted data and adjust it appropriately. Either way by cheating or simply accepting other people cheat instead of straight out boycotting the event, You are causing a mountain of bad data and SE won't touch nyzul to make it easier until the gear is irrelevant or a side grade.

Edited, Jun 21st 2012 9:13am by Laxedrane
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#8 Jun 21 2012 at 7:29 AM Rating: Excellent
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Fynlar wrote:
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Every time I see somebody in this gear, I'm inclined to think that they cheated to get it. Am I off base in assuming this?


Possibly, yeah. It's conceivable that the others in their group were cheating to get through it, but not them. I don't run anything besides windower, and I've got some HQ Nyzul stuff.

So far, I haven't done a run of it where all the other people in the group appeared to be playing legit. Most were running faster than they should normally be able to, among other things.
Edited, Jun 21st 2012 4:25am by Fynlar


Closing your eyes and plugging your ears shouting "nah nah nah" while the other 5/6 in your group run at flee speed through walls doesn't mean the non-flee hacker in the group got his gear legit.

But yeah I use windower too and some people consider that in itself cheating. So to each his own I guess.
#9 Jun 21 2012 at 7:34 AM Rating: Decent
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Closing your eyes and plugging your ears shouting "nah nah nah" while the other 5/6 in your group run at flee speed through walls doesn't mean the non-flee hacker in the group got his gear legit.


I'm not claiming that I got my gear "legit", I'm claiming that *I* didn't use cheats/hacks to get it.

Again, the issue here is that you have no real way to force your groups to play fairly, and I don't feel like I should have to say "welp, guess I'll never do HQ Nyzul or obtain HQ Nyzul gear" just because other people almost always insist on cheating for it.

Edited, Jun 21st 2012 9:35am by Fynlar
#11 Jun 21 2012 at 8:08 AM Rating: Decent
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Why not start a group of like-minded individuals who aren't cheating whores?


If I knew enough people that were actually skilled/geared enough to do HQ Nyzul (which, as is, requires ridiculous levels of those AND luck to do it purely legit; not even people who are cheating will win this event every time, just to put things in a little perspective), I might have tried that. But I absolutely do not. In fact, in the process of trying HQ Nyzul, I've discovered that many of the skilled players who I thought were above cheating would turn on the hax for this event in particular. That's how rampant the cheating is.

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It's your decision to allow yourself to be in a group of cheaters. Before joining you should ask if they cheat. And if you observe any cheating during the run, warp out immediately. I personally wouldn't allow the fate of my account or my reputation to be in the hands of some random people just for some gear.


That's pretty much the equivalent of just never doing HQ Nyzul at all, and I've already said what my thoughts are about that so I'm not going to mention it a 3rd time.

There's also cheats that aren't exactly easily detectable (unless they specifically mention information that they're gaining out of it that they shouldn't normally be able to know), such as seeing through walls and numbered lamps. Not that I would bother warping out after I was already inside anyway, unless SE plans on refunding my Assault tags for being the honest Abe, which I'm sure they do not.

Edited, Jun 21st 2012 10:09am by Fynlar
#12 Jun 21 2012 at 8:17 AM Rating: Excellent
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Zelduh wrote:
Why not start a group of like-minded individuals who aren't cheating whores? It's your decision to allow yourself to be in a group of cheaters. Before joining you should ask if they cheat. And if you observe any cheating during the run, warp out immediately. I personally wouldn't allow the fate of my account or my reputation to be in the hands of some random people just for some gear.


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#13 Jun 21 2012 at 8:23 AM Rating: Excellent
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Fynlar wrote:
Again, the issue here is that you have no real way to force your groups to play fairly, and I don't feel like I should have to say "welp, guess I'll never do HQ Nyzul or obtain HQ Nyzul gear" just because other people almost always insist on cheating for it.


I understand what you're saying. We're just on opposite ends of the spectrum. I've got no use for a poorely designed event that takes a great deal of luck even with cheats and .dat swaps, no matter how good the gear is. Its unforunate that SE seems to refuse to acknowlege whats going on in Nyzul and puts players in that predicament. The worst I've heard of is some people getting temp banned.
#14 Jun 21 2012 at 8:24 AM Rating: Excellent
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Laxedrane the Irrelevant wrote:
The problem is, by cheating these people are causing bad Data for SE. For a second let's assume SE is wearing a dunce cap on the situation as far as cheating. Now they see that an acceptable amount of people are winning and getting gear.and they won't adjust nyzul until way farther down the line.

The other scenario is they'll go the same route as salvage.once they find a way to prove people are doing this, (Aka more then ok we know it;s going on) Suspend and ban people as they see fit, Then they'll look at the un-tainted data and adjust it appropriately. Either way by cheating or simply accepting other people cheat instead of straight out boycotting the event, You are causing a mountain of bad data and SE won't touch nyzul to make it easier until the gear is irrelevant or a side grade.


You're absolutely right. Sadly the cheaters don't really care about the consequences of their actions until they get busted and they themselves are negatively affected. They certainly don't care about any harm to the rest of the community. They want their shinies that they can lord over the rest of us. They don't want Nyzul to be made any different or easier, because then they can't be special snowflakes and have their existences validated by their video game accomplishments.

Zelduh wrote:
Why not start a group of like-minded individuals who aren't cheating whores? It's your decision to allow yourself to be in a group of cheaters. Before joining you should ask if they cheat. And if you observe any cheating during the run, warp out immediately. I personally wouldn't allow the fate of my account or my reputation to be in the hands of some random people just for some gear.


No offense, but I never thought I'd agree with you like this, Zelduh. People need to be very careful here that they don't get busted through guilt by association. If you see cheating, get out immediately or be willing to accept the consequences. Even if you aren't running the cheats yourself but you know they're being used, you're still directly benefiting from them and SE can and should sanction you for it. If you know the car is stolen and you still go for a ride in it, then be ready to pay for your stupidity.

Fynlar wrote:
Again, the issue here is that you have no real way to force your groups to play fairly,


Ditch 'em. They may not play fairly, but at least they won't win by cheating on that particular run.

Quote:
and I don't feel like I should have to say "welp, guess I'll never do HQ Nyzul or obtain HQ Nyzul gear" just because other people almost always insist on cheating for it.


Long as you get your shinies it's all good right? Everything's justified.

Edited, Jun 21st 2012 10:40am by Camiie
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#15 Jun 21 2012 at 8:37 AM Rating: Default
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I love how anyone with good gear is an elitist prick who hates casuals and needs to feel special.
#16 Jun 21 2012 at 8:38 AM Rating: Decent
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Regarding the whole "bad data" thing... SE knows people cheat the event, guys. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out how so many people are getting the gear that they obviously intended to be exceptionally rare. They've already threw out some bans for it, even.

With regard to this event as a whole, SE is currently either undergoing a BSOD with how to properly deal with it, or they're just too lazy to properly deal with it. Given the fact this is SE we're talking about... well, it could really be either one, but my money is on the latter.

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Ditch 'em. They may not play fairly, but at least they won't win by cheating on that particular run.


Again, that's pretty much the same thing as resigning myself never to do this bit of (sorta) new content in a game that's pretty starved for new content these days. See above for my reasoning on why I think that's crap and I won't go along with that.

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Long as you get your shinies it's all good right? Everything's justified.


Wouldn't say it has anything to do the shinies really, more like accepting inevitability (that is, that people will cheat an incredibly luck-based event that they have a more than decent chance of getting away from it scot-free) instead of trying to fight it in vain, so I can actually take part in an event that I played the **** out of the original version of because I happened to really enjoy it and not have to constantly **** heads with the cheaters (who will still be cheating anyway regardless of what I have to do or say about it). But hey, you can call it what you want.

Edited, Jun 21st 2012 10:55am by Fynlar
#17 Jun 21 2012 at 8:41 AM Rating: Excellent
KodoReturns wrote:

Not that I can blame the people that do cheat though, the devs put some of the best gear in the game at floor 100, make it near impossible to get there, and then insist multiple times that "It can be done with a little luck and a well equipped party."
Edited, Jun 21st 2012 4:59am by KodoReturns


They didn't want/expect getting to floor 100 to be something that could be done on a regular basis, but something that, with luck, a group might be able to do once in awhile with perfect floor jumps and easy individual floors. It was a way of artificially making the gear rarer, since they weren't looking at people using third party tools to improve their odds. Why they didn't, given that they've seen several times in the past that people will use any mean necessary to obtain what they want (i.e. Wall of Justice, Salvage dupes, etc), is beyond me, but that's just how they set up the system, and now they seem to be trying different methods to "remedy" that is a very passive way.
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#18 Jun 21 2012 at 9:05 AM Rating: Excellent
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Fynlar wrote:
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Why not start a group of like-minded individuals who aren't cheating whores?


If I knew enough people that were actually skilled/geared enough to do HQ Nyzul (which, as is, requires ridiculous levels of those AND luck to do it purely legit...

...

Edited, Jun 21st 2012 10:09am by Fynlar


Starting to look like oldschool FFXI again Smiley: grin
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#19 Jun 21 2012 at 9:09 AM Rating: Default
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It's perfectly possible to win this event with just .dat swaps and fillmode (windower's built-in seeing-through-walls feature). Fleehacking will obviously increase your odds (to nearly 100%), but I'd expect you can win ~25% with just Fillmode and .dat swaps. To each his own, but there are plenty of different levels of "cheaters" that will have the same equipment. Fleehacking-cheater, dat Swap/Fillmode Cheater, cheaters by proxy, etc.

The arguments for using 3P advantages to win this event are the same as the argument for using Windower. SE has designed a part of the game that is insufficient (Nyzul's or UI's design, respectively) and people fix it for them with 3P solutions. Some people tone down the difficulty a little (.dat swaps and fillmode) and some easy-button the event (Fleehacking). This is similar to the difference between using Windower Sandbox for Send to dualbox your mule and using a cure bot. If you choose not to partake in the solutions, you end up not doing Neo-NI or using an incredibly antiquated and terrible UI.

In my opinion, we all play this game for fun and there's no RL correlate for stupid digital "equipment." Play as you like and don't expect SE to fix the game's problems. They're having enough trouble making Tacos for FanFest.
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#20 Jun 21 2012 at 9:33 AM Rating: Excellent
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Byrthnoth wrote:
In my opinion, we all play this game for fun and there's no RL correlate for stupid digital "equipment." Play as you like and don't expect SE to fix the game's problems. They're having enough trouble making Tacos for FanFest.


I'd change it to "Play as you like and be willing to accept the consequences." I don't want to see people going on BG to whine about what a travesty of justice it is they got banned for this. Yeah there's comedic value in that, but in a "I can't believe anyone is this stupid" kind of way.
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#21 Jun 21 2012 at 9:47 AM Rating: Excellent
Fynlar wrote:
Regarding the whole "bad data" thing... SE knows people cheat the event, guys. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out how so many people are getting the gear that they obviously intended to be exceptionally rare. They've already threw out some bans for it, even.

With regard to this event as a whole, SE is currently either undergoing a BSOD with how to properly deal with it, or they're just too lazy to properly deal with it. Given the fact this is SE we're talking about... well, it could really be either one, but my money is on the latter.


You don't understand. The difference is that they probably do know, but what they don't know how many people are. How many people are obtaining them legitmently? Is anyone actually succeeding the way they intended? These are the things that keep square from aggressively adjusting it.
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#22 Jun 21 2012 at 10:07 AM Rating: Good
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Yeah, they're a bunch of cheaters. But unfortunately I just don't see anyone getting banned for this, or SE fixing the event to not virtually require cheating to win. People only got banned in Salvage because the bug they were abusing caused some sort of logs to be generated server-side that SE could check, and that only happened because items were being duplicated--stuff was being created on the server as a DIRECT result of cheating that otherwise would not have existed. Seeing through walls and .DAT name mods are 100% client-side and 100% undetectable unless someone is stupid enough to brag in-game about them. Moving at flee speed is also known to be undetectable unless someone is there to see you, people have been cheating that way for most of the time this game has been out and there's never been a systemic fix of any kind. And unless there is ironclad proof like there was in Salvage, SE has shown that they will stick their fingers in their ears and go, "We can't hear you!" when confronted with player cheating no matter how systemic. HNM botting was proof of that. To this day they have not acknowledged that the system was fundamentally broken even now that it is gone!

Personally I attribute behavior to Japanese attitudes on crime and punishment in general. Japanese prosecutors try to maintain a 100% conviction rate; it's a big deal for them to lose a case. As a result there's a lot of crime in Japan that is unpunished and covered up, because the prosecution wouldn't risk going to trial. Meanwhile when someone is found guilty they get sent to long sentences in Japanese prisons, which are notoriously strict. Oh, and who finds a Japanese criminal guilty? A judge, with no jury, and Japanese judges are notoriously bad. (The unfairness in the Ace Attorney series isn't purely dramatic, it actually has a basis in Japanese experience!) An unaccountable and unresponsive system that alternates between brutal punishment without appeal and total blindness--sounds familiar, doesn't it? I believe that the problem is that dev team is looking at the issue through cultural blinders a mile thick.
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#23 Jun 21 2012 at 10:45 AM Rating: Good
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Nyzul Uncharted: nice gear, cheater!


I laughed at the title D:

Isn't it sad they did it again, the top tier event is ridden with cheats to win and even the people that do it legit are tainted. HNM bot claiming all over again, meh.
#24 Jun 21 2012 at 11:06 AM Rating: Excellent
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Dantedmc wrote:
I love how anyone with good gear is an elitist prick who hates casuals and needs to feel special.


There's a difference between having good gear and insisting a broken event is fine because one has no problem in manipulating it via means other players don't have access to or even know exist. The latter is shades of Salvage's "only those who deserve to know would know" mentality when it came to the duping. And of course, some go on to ridicule people without these pieces of gear or talk like they're common enough to be associated in a given situation's build.

Others have hinted on how the negative behavior can skew data. It's a lot easier to comb character data files and find X of Y item is in existence. It's harder for SE to document and process the exact conditions a given item was acquired, especially since their backup data seems limited. Personally, I don't think people would mind Nyzul's current incarnation so much if the alternative means of loot acquisition wasn't a mega obvious grind of grinds: Clear F80 25 times for 1 F100 piece... do the math for all 15 pieces this way. Propose this be 5 clears, though, and you'll get the same jerks from above demanding their "skill" be rewarded and that some items just don't deserve to be in the hands of the "filthy casuals" who dare request such.

At this point, if SE has no intention of changing Nyzul 2.0 itself, I'd like to see trials to upgrade lesser pieces. Include ZNMs. Require ToAU Beastman King kills. Make someone kill 5000 colibri for all I care. It can be done and takes a bit of pressure off the luck element if you're willing to put a bit of work into things.

Does it suck being stereotyped? Sure. Unfortunately, stereotypes come about because something happens enough for people to take notice. And when a given behavior is not discouraged, well, open season for pricks in this case.
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#25 Jun 21 2012 at 11:31 AM Rating: Decent
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If someone is having trouble with an event, I assume they would eventually look for some kind of strategy guide. Any kind of strategy guide for Nyzul Isle is going to be pretty upfront with the need for third party solutions to first party problems, and five minutes later anyone that is skilled with "The Google" can probably find those third party solutions (Dat swaps and Windower, at least).

If SE's next official release numbered the lamps 1-5, I seriously doubt any player would have any problems with that. With "The Google" and a little ~hard~ work, you can be one update that should have already happened ahead of the game. Maybe they'll ban everyone that escaped their sorry excuse for content by capping out on gear, or maybe they won't. Either way, after 150k tokens I know I've done enough Nyzul Isle to last me the rest of my playtime.
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#26 Jun 21 2012 at 11:51 AM Rating: Excellent
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Here on Bismark (Remember Bismark? The epicenter of the Salvage Bans with more bans than any other server) I've seen some of the usual clowns and their LS's pull down "Temp Bans" for 3rd-party shenanigans in Neo-Nyzul. Big wow, 3 days sitting in a corner, that will surely make them fly straight...

These are the same clowns that used apradar to drunkenly run around for 15 seconds in an area and take one knee POOF exactly on the Tier 3 VNM. The same folks that used to supply the server with Haguns by "acing" the Boneyard Gully ENM by knowing just where to run, and where not to run.

TBH, I am disappoint at the way that SE has handled these areas. In the Salvage bans, they let it go to such a point that everyone's grandmother was duping thinking that since nothing was being done that it was acceptable behavior then BAM. What's it gonna be this time?

I say either enforce the rules or go wild west, this "Intermittent enforcement" is killing me. There are no "levels" or gray area to cheating and this applies as well to "honest". It's a lot like being "kinda" pregnant.

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