Shouts in JeunoFollow

In terms of this Manifest/Fynlar etc argument going on here...

My concern as a casual player with people who confuse crappy drop rates, general ****-blockery, gating, long spawns etc with "challenge" - is that it really ruins the game for folks who do just want to log in once in awhile, have some fun, accomplish a bit (maybe even get a useful shiny!)

It may cheapen the experience of those who want to play for hours and hours everyday to have shinies in the game available to scrubs like me, but then again, having 1% drop rates and content that shuts out people who don't feel like sinking 2 hours a day 5 days a week for a couple months into a digital weapon...(boring! Not challenging!) well that makes the game not very fun to the rest of us.

I agree on finding whm challenging... and honestly I wish that's the kind of challenge people looked for in this game, but it feels like 90% of the time people only apply the word "challenge" to things that are soul-crushingly grindy... not actually difficult at all. I mean if people actually wanted "challenge" we wouldn't be arguing about PJ shouts that say E/R/M weapon DD only, would we? Because we can all agree taking on content with less optimal equipment demands more from the player.



Edited, May 24th 2012 3:27pm by Olorinus

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=260&mid=133017600034022142#4



That's right, that measly "Trial Weapon" is actually equal to a Rag and is one of the top end weapons for DRK, and it's much the same for DRG and sorta the same for SAM.


That's the difference between me, you and af, I actually being forced to build voidwatch runs to get things done for LS members. One of our members parses every run and posts them for us to see, that's how I know who's worth inviting again and who's not. It's also how I know that "R/M/E onry!!" is complete BS, seen too many fail DDs that happen to possess one of those and too many good DD's that didn't. Now I just ask them what their main weapon is and what their x-hit is, and depending on how they answer is whether their any good or not.

This is what I keep talking about, people who do the /sh "R/M/E DD ONRY" shouts rarely know the proper order for each of those jobs weapons.

As for

I can take any sort of Real Life "accomplishment" and dumb it down the exact same way you have. Often times, there ARE factors of luck, and practice/repetition of a specific task to the point of absurdity involved... so again, what's the real difference here?

Do it then.

Here are three examples:

-Button smash and luck on becoming a first chair trumpet player for your state's music organization. I'll make it easy. High school level. Let me know how much easier that is than FFXI.

-Become a blackbelt in ninjutsu

-Get an engineering degree. And a law degree. And then practice successfully for 15 years.

I let the whole tangent from talking about relics, mythics, and empyreans go for a bit, but it's getting a bit out of hand, so keep to the subject at hand and avoid the whole real life discussion/issue.

So .. basically Afania can't understand math, doesn't play DD jobs and yet expects to actually know what their talking about. Wow ... no wonder you don't get what's been said here.

We all know mythics are currently the best weapons for SAM / DRG and possibly DRK (Entropy is much weaker then Res). Do you know why the mythics are so powerful even though their WS's are completely ****?

It's because their AM allows you to swing more often through multi-hit procs. This directly leads to more total WS's over time which for those jobs that highly favor WS spam is a huge bonus. And by golly isn't there another weapon that does a very similar thing? I could of swore there was and we've been discussing them this entire time. Ohh right, the OaT Magian weapons! The magian's are understandably weaker then the Mythics, yet the mechanics are the same and they don't require you to use a weak WS to keep AM up.

As for Taint, his math was horribly flawed from the get go. It was done in January before these weapons were made and made many false assumptions, specifically that all stats were capped yet there was tons of TP overflow, something that hurts Kano. If your getting TP overflow then your not paying enough attention and pressing buttons fast enough. In that case you are the limiter not your gear. Also their math assumed 99 versions of those weapons, a 99 Amano costs 100M (20M x 5) from 95 while a 99 Masa costs 195M from 90. The proper comparison is 99 Kano (Oat / ect..) vs 90 Emp vs 95 Relic as that is what you'll see 99.9% of the time. Although 99 relics are appearing more often as ADL has become farmable status. When someone wants something to "be the best" they can easily skew the assumptions into their favor. I try not to do that and use somewhat realistic scenarios, or at least scenarios that I can reasonably expect to happen.

Here I'll demonstrate



He created a perfect bubble for Amano/Masa but then removed that bubble for Kano, and even then the difference was very small, we're talking 3~4% small. Since then Save TP has been nerfed and we've shifted to SD being a better zerg WS.

I don't want to **** vlor's off too much so I'll try to get to the point on each item.

99 Relics tend to be the realistic top end (Mythics are 510,000,000 gil for base weapon) for the jobs that received uber WS's, they have the right combination of stats and do not require using a weaker WS to do their 2.0~2.5x damage. 99 Emps depend highly on the WS, DRG / DRK got crap emps so theirs falls near the bottom, SAM's got Fudo which is a decent zerging WS which is the situation that it beats out Kano. Unfortunately (or not depending on your PoV) SAM's also get Stardiver and a good PLM which is an even better zerging weapon. Depending on the exact situation those two tend to switch places, a lot.

For DRK pure damage race, Raelix's order is correct. He prefers his Apoc over Rag, actually he hates rag with a passion haha. His comment about Rag not existing is that there are so few of them, or at least were so few of them until this spring. All the old guard DRKS, without exception made Apocs, they really like scythes. Rag was considered "lol" status as a relic, only slightly higher then gutler and claustrum. Then SE created Resolution which upset everything, thus nearly all Rags are newly created Rags. Also Rae was using a generic "all content" approach thus the /SAM, his order stands the same for /WAR in voidwatch. Rag is a powerful weapon but has one serious flaw, it's delay is too low. It makes getting a 6-hit really hard, you need Porcy's to pull it off comfortably. That was the biggest shock going from Jingang to Rag, Jing's high delay makes you have a 6-hit built in even as /WAR, can do 5-hit as /SAM. Cala has the same weak delay that Rag does but without the built in 2.5x damage nor the boost to crit rates. The boat paddle really isn't worth using, ever. OaT GSWD has 480 delay which puts it solidly into 6-hit territory as /WAR and 5-hit as /SAM. Once you account for the 45% OaT you end up with ~1.2 less hits then required. 99 Rag > 95 Rag = OaT > everything else (for great swords).

For DRG, their Emp sucks, and it sucks so bad that anyone who defends it must be doing it out of pride or possibly shame for making one. Even at 99 it falls behind pretty much everything else, that is how much it sucks. Gungnir otoh is a pretty nice Relic, the add effect is helpful for everything in the alliance and SD spam gives everyone else a +5% crit rate. 95 Gungnir is slightly behind their OaT, 99 Gungnir beats the OaT, that's how close those three are.

The OaT weapons at 99 have been tested to have a between a 45 and 48% OaT rate, not the 40% I quoted earlier. For DRK it's a no brainer, higher delay (easier x-hit) + more WS's makes it win over the boat paddle. For DRG, it's a no brainer, OaT beats out emp, especially as the OaT effect procs on jumps and jump timers has been reduced.

Overall, the difference between those top weapons (Relic vs OaT / TP Bonus) is not large enough to determine win / fail of any event. And all those pail in comparison the performance that proper macro / ja / temp item management bring to the table. Btw those are not just copying a bunch of macros from the internet. Something nearly everyone forgets and does wrong is having a good layout that lends itself to fast paced button smashing and JA / item usage. My finger hovers over my WS macro even when I'm at 40~60TP so that the moment I hit 100, or should hit 100, I can fire off a WS. I rarely get to see my Ws animations cause the moment I see it start I hit my TP gear macro to prevent having a full attack round in WS gear, too many people wait till after the animation to hit their TP macro not realizing they've spent an entire attack round in WS gear. That becomes especially important during super buffed scenarios when your attack round has been reduced to a second.

Edited, May 25th 2012 10:55am by saevellakshmi

So as someone who has never done a VW before i was wondering which of my two jobs would be more readily accepted in a VW shout, (talking about lower tier stuff, not the elite battles you guys are talking about). My main job is, and always has been pup, i have the WoE 90 weapon along with 5/5 shijin w/gorget + belt, all attachments and good gear but i never see people asking for it, so i was wondering if people even bring pups along to these things, the test server notes say that automatons will always proc things now using abilities, so will they be more useful after the next update?

My second job is SCH, another job i almost never see asked for in shouts, are they normally used for VW? I currently have 470 enhancing, (one reason i need to start VW is to work on my 500 embrava build), along with sea obis/twilight cape, and the Magian Ice staff. When scholars are brought into VW what are their normal roles, just embrava/regen 5ga while healing, or are they useful for procs/nuking as well? I haven't worked on Arka IV because so far in my SCH's life i have more focused on nuking, but if i did try to get a VW group on SCH would they require me to have the healing staff?

Sorry for the semi derail, just trying to figure out the best way to go about starting VW when all the shouts i see are asking for very specific jobs, along with DD's with elite weapons.

Thanks for any help you guys can give me,
Fantus

WTF are you talking about???

The OA2~4 weapons suck horribly, one of the worst selection unless your building a weapon for /DNC solos. We're talking about the OaT weapon, had a higher DMG and procs it's extra swing 45~48% of the time at 99. It's higher delay and extra swing usually puts them in the perfect sweet-spot for a lower x-hit build and for spamming WS's that use 100% WSC mods. When your talking about ~170 from WSC alone then 10~30 base damage difference begins to look really small.

Rag is top single-target damage, sure, but that's all it does. If you want max damage for any situation, play WAR instead. OAT is more adaptive to multiple targets and applying your damage efficiently, like in Neo-Nyzul. OAT requires intelligence to see and reap the benefits.

You use 2-4 for proc-finding in VW. If you think it's for winning parses you're one of those worthless e-peen douchebags who doesn't understand the content he plays.

The answer to 'Did I factor x' is generally yes, unless it's something retarded like using /WAR for 2-4 Scythe, which does well to compartmentalize and define your idiodicy. The 'Did I factor x' that you're completely missing is ease of obtainment: OAT costs maybe 5 mil and a week of work all-told, while Rag is 10x that.

I'd rather have ten OAT DRKs in my LS than one Rag DRK.

90 Calad is just a vanilla GS with really awful hitbuild options except in that specific situation you can drop an opening 300tp Torcleaver for ODD in Voidwatch, but that's still a paltry ~10% damage increase or less (due to what a small factor TP phase damage becomes) over an AH sword (added just this last update, sure), and barely putting it over Borealis.

Torc and Reso don't chain. 430 delay is still a nightmare. etc. You already read and ignored the reasons I'm sure.

I'm biased because I actually have one of the few 2-4 Scythes in the game. The owners can be counted on one hand. At the same time you still think that list is a damage ranking, but 2-4 Scythe would still beat 90 Calad for raw damage in almost any situation, I would know because I was doing it daily, you're just horribly misinformed as to the attributes and performance of Entropy and how much INT a DRK can actually get (protip: more than they can get STR with neck/belt reserved and without -Acc pieces or insane Huginn pieces). You aren't contending with an attack penalty, lower skill cap, or increased miss susceptibility. The reason I called you a derptard for /WAR on 2-4 is because 5-hit gives you one-round cycles or more specifically something like a 30% reduction in 3+ round cycles. 2-4 on 5-hit is WS spam brewed down to an essence and snorted through a hundred byne bill, and a proper build on Entropy makes it scary. To be more precise it's a low-buff monster. You think the absurdly high-buffed Voidwatch is the only event in the game now.

2-4 Scythe and OAT GS makes the most useful DRK in the game, because, this might blow your f*cking mind, there are events in this game that aren't a single target for greater than 20 seconds duration and being able to spread your damage around instead of blowing your whole 4k WS load on a mob with 1200hp is actually valuable.

I guess I'm simply saying: You know nothing of DRK if you think 90 Calad is underrated in that list. If Voidwatch was the only event in the game it might be a tad lowballed, but seeing as Voidwatch should never be a max-damage contest for 90% of the duration save for three or four mobs tops, it's a worthless vanilla sword everywhere else.

And to be honest, it smells like you're butthurt because you went full cookie-cutter (never go full cookie-cutter) and made Calad and now you get told it's crap.

If anything, Redemption is the underrated one there because of closing Entropy self-Darkness while still getting ODD activated.



So once again: THAT LIST IS NOT A GODDAMN DAMAGE RANKING. What that boils down to is if I were to have to pick between two DRKs each with one of those weapons, that's the order I'd pick them. Not necessarily OAT directly over Rag, but if I had an OAT DRK I wouldn't be holding out for a Rag DRK instead, nor if a Rag DRK suddenly cropped up would I kick the OAT DRK to the curb (the chance of them being a total lulzball derptard scrubhole tryhard is equal with both).


So read it this way: I'd take a Gram/Jingang or a 90 Calad at equal face value, because the Jingang user could be 5-hitting like a boss and many other factors. I'd take a 99 WoE Scythe DRK for much the same reason, though less about unique snowflake and more about knowing why they have that weapon. I'd take a 2-4 Scythe DRK over a 90 Calad DRK for exactly the same reason as the rest of this post: One is an intelligent player with a real level 99 weapon and the other is a cookie-cutter tryhard wannabe who sleeps with his paddle because he's too much of a ***** to farm up a different and superior weapon.


If you have the resources to get Rag, you get Rag, but generally because you've already used those resources to get Apoc. It's still riding mostly on being FotM right now though, and Voidwatch favors it in droves (Save-TP, 6-hittable /WAR, actual need for that much attack but mobs aren't particularly evasive). Once Voidwatch is properly dead or nerfed things will change again, and then all the owners and players working on it will be like "Wait... the aftermath is only 5% crit rate even at 99? Seriously? Why am I using this thing again?"


Something to notice is that I didn't even bother to list Mythic. This is because you can and should know who has a Mythic on your server and what they're worth, plus the AM3 info was still half-baked at the time.

Edited, May 28th 2012 2:20pm by Raelix