You gotta be kidding me... By that notion half this game isn't and has never been worth playing. There are literally hundreds of side grades that people chase after, marginal upgrades. Hell most of the crap people go after isn't even needed. You don't need the best of the best to beat anything in this game, you need bare minimum, and people with brains to know how to use it. Essentially most of endgame is really not needed at all. If you can kill something for its loot, then you don't need the loot that drops to kill it again, and when the next patch comes out you can buy the side grade from the AH that jumps you into bare minimum for the next content.
If the DPS is higher with one weapon, it is better. Period. You are trying to compare the value of the weapon to time expended obtaining it. Which has no bearing at all on the DPS value.
I agree with you that the time investment isn't worth the side grade. In most cases this games time investment isn't worth the reward in the end anyway, hell Joyeuse is still one of the best single handed swords (non relic or the like) in terms of overall DPS value, but people ignore it because it says level 70 or w/e on it, and instead of taking a trip down to kill the Charbydis or w/e, they would rather spend weeks grinding through mobs to get a marginally (talking a few %) better weapon in the OAX line.
That doesn't change the fact that the OAX end result is better, but value of time is irrelevant in that discussion. People all value time differently, spending weeks working for a marginal upgrade is a waste of time to me, but to some people having that extra few % is totally worth it. But just because it takes longer doesn't mean that the end value is less.
So ya I don't get your arguments, the weapon is better, period.
Edited, Nov 21st 2012 12:53pm by rdmcandie
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Best DD Job now?Follow
HEY GOOGLE. **** OFF YOU. **** YOUR ******** SEARCH ENGINE IN ITS ******* ****** BINARY ***. ALL DAY LONG.
It's a downgrade from anything you should have if you're doing Ig'Alima often enough to get it.
I don't understand how this is a difficult concept. Yes, it's half a step above ****-tier, that doesn't make it worth getting nor a Hoarfrost DRK hand-over-fist better than an AH DRK. I'd sooner scrutinize them on their choice of grip than Hoarfrost vs. Gram. Dead serious, having Rose Strap is a better measure of a DRK than having Hoarfrost if you wanna talk about 'side' or 'marginal' upgrades from old unrequited content.
Someone who has Hoarfrost and nothing better is either bandwagon, a moron, or both. It means you play enough to have made a decent weapon, but didn't and got a ****-tier+1 instead.
I don't understand how this is a difficult concept. Yes, it's half a step above ****-tier, that doesn't make it worth getting nor a Hoarfrost DRK hand-over-fist better than an AH DRK. I'd sooner scrutinize them on their choice of grip than Hoarfrost vs. Gram. Dead serious, having Rose Strap is a better measure of a DRK than having Hoarfrost if you wanna talk about 'side' or 'marginal' upgrades from old unrequited content.
Someone who has Hoarfrost and nothing better is either bandwagon, a moron, or both. It means you play enough to have made a decent weapon, but didn't and got a ****-tier+1 instead.
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Airships on fire off the shoulder of Bahamut. I watched Scapula Beams glitter in the dark near the Three Mage Gate...
You're new here, aren't you?
Nilatai wrote:
Vlorsutes wrote:
There's always...not trolling him?
You're new here, aren't you?
eh, maybe they played a different job and got lucky on Ig and are using it cause they have it?
/shrug
/shrug
White Mage has my vote for best DD in FFXI now. Dia III is deadly, don't try to f**k with me after that is cast.
Can you out-DD a repeated Cure VI?!,......................didn't think so.
Edited, Nov 21st 2012 8:00pm by Nuhnisgodly
Can you out-DD a repeated Cure VI?!,......................didn't think so.
Edited, Nov 21st 2012 8:00pm by Nuhnisgodly
Raelix wrote:
It's a downgrade from anything you should have if you're doing Ig'Alima often enough to get it.
I don't understand how this is a difficult concept. Yes, it's half a step above sh*t-tier, that doesn't make it worth getting nor a Hoarfrost DRK hand-over-fist better than an AH DRK. I'd sooner scrutinize them on their choice of grip than Hoarfrost vs. Gram. Dead serious, having Rose Strap is a better measure of a DRK than having Hoarfrost if you wanna talk about 'side' or 'marginal' upgrades from old unrequited content.
Someone who has Hoarfrost and nothing better is either bandwagon, a moron, or both. It means you play enough to have made a decent weapon, but didn't and got a sh*t-tier+1 instead.
I don't understand how this is a difficult concept. Yes, it's half a step above sh*t-tier, that doesn't make it worth getting nor a Hoarfrost DRK hand-over-fist better than an AH DRK. I'd sooner scrutinize them on their choice of grip than Hoarfrost vs. Gram. Dead serious, having Rose Strap is a better measure of a DRK than having Hoarfrost if you wanna talk about 'side' or 'marginal' upgrades from old unrequited content.
Someone who has Hoarfrost and nothing better is either bandwagon, a moron, or both. It means you play enough to have made a decent weapon, but didn't and got a sh*t-tier+1 instead.
Firstly no one said they were hand over fist than an AH DRK, Bryn said that they were likely among the top Damage Performers. If it out DPS's AH weapons it is better, how much is irrelevant. Time taken to attain said item is irrelevant, all that matter is one is capable of posting better number.
Now don't get me wrong, it is not worth the time to get i don't think, I think it is a marginal improvement, maybe at worst a side grade, and I agree if you spend that time getting it, then why not spend it making something better. But who am I to say what something means to someone else. Its not my call if someone finds the time invested worth it, If you do all the power too you, good luck.
The point I was making is that you can not compare what you consider time value to another. I am sure there are many people who have spent hours/days/weeks/years? Attaining an item that was marginally better than they could attain in a less amount of time. Some people call it a badge of honor, some people call it playing the game, and who is to say what is right and wrong in that, or valuable or invaluable.
What I can tell you however is that if one weapon deals more overall DPS than another, it is in fact an upgrade, be it marginal, or significant again, is irrelevant.
HEY GOOGLE. **** OFF YOU. **** YOUR ******** SEARCH ENGINE IN ITS ******* ****** BINARY ***. ALL DAY LONG.
Didn't Pchan has a parse showing that Mythic GKT , ON AVERAGE (pay @#%^ing attention), was the most often winner of best DMG at wide variety of high level events today?
On weak to piercing dmg I think Ryuhinge won but for the most part, 99 Mythic SAM kind of beats everything.
Edited, Nov 21st 2012 11:23pm by Busaman
On weak to piercing dmg I think Ryuhinge won but for the most part, 99 Mythic SAM kind of beats everything.
Edited, Nov 21st 2012 11:23pm by Busaman
[ffxisig]188740[/ffxisig]
Busa's Cloth Guide 1-100
Busa's Cloth Guide 1-100
Zaredx wrote:
Gjallihorn + Carnwenhan = Green Ranger's Flute! DRAGONZORD!
I didn't mean they'd be top-tier DDs compared to the now-common relics/empyreans. I meant they'd be good for non-magian options. Some people do Ig-Alima for Ogier's Coat, Riftdross, etc. and end up with Hoarfrost Blade. It was mostly to let people who don't feel like committing to a magian or 99 R/M/E know what to aim for. I mean, STR GSs being better is fab, but they cost like 5 million gil worth of geodes and hours of otherwise-profitless work. Doing Ig-Alima makes you gil while you farm for the blade. Yeah, yeah. There are better ways to make gil. Still, some people prefer Voidwatch for reasons that are entirely unclear to me.
When I parse (on WAR with a 99 Ukon or 99 Ragnarok for MS) here's what I notice:
1) Idiots never do well
If I'm fairly sure someone is not an idiot and am looking to compare the potential of their build to mine:
2) The only non-R/M/E 2H user that consistently breaks 50% of my damage is Hoarfrost DRK or (in Voidwatch with Discipline) SAM with the Save TP GKT.
3) The only 1H users that consistently breaks 50% of my damage is 99 Verth/Spharai Monks, which can do quite well especially against lower level content.
4) Dragoons without Ryunohige, SAMs without 99 R/M/Es, Scythe DRKs, and 1H users other than Monks with 99R/M/E are consistently <50% of my damage regardless how competent they are.
In practice, through way too many pickup Voidwatch groups, ADL zergs, and so on, the above is what I observe. These are all high buff situations with varying level correction (Voidwatch high, Legion high, ADL low). They aren't being compared to a particularly awesome example because my gear for WAR isn't even the best. I lack E.body/P.body and I'm a Taru. Still, the only place I parse <20% despite being in an alliance is Legion, where I've tried to make sure we only have DDs as good or better than me.
Edited, Nov 22nd 2012 10:56am by Byrthnoth
When I parse (on WAR with a 99 Ukon or 99 Ragnarok for MS) here's what I notice:
1) Idiots never do well
If I'm fairly sure someone is not an idiot and am looking to compare the potential of their build to mine:
2) The only non-R/M/E 2H user that consistently breaks 50% of my damage is Hoarfrost DRK or (in Voidwatch with Discipline) SAM with the Save TP GKT.
3) The only 1H users that consistently breaks 50% of my damage is 99 Verth/Spharai Monks, which can do quite well especially against lower level content.
4) Dragoons without Ryunohige, SAMs without 99 R/M/Es, Scythe DRKs, and 1H users other than Monks with 99R/M/E are consistently <50% of my damage regardless how competent they are.
In practice, through way too many pickup Voidwatch groups, ADL zergs, and so on, the above is what I observe. These are all high buff situations with varying level correction (Voidwatch high, Legion high, ADL low). They aren't being compared to a particularly awesome example because my gear for WAR isn't even the best. I lack E.body/P.body and I'm a Taru. Still, the only place I parse <20% despite being in an alliance is Legion, where I've tried to make sure we only have DDs as good or better than me.
Edited, Nov 22nd 2012 10:56am by Byrthnoth
Someone who does Voidwatch enough to have Hoarfrost/Borealis has enough invested in Voidwatch - atmacites, temps, and experience - to be good at Voidwatch? An event with buff stacking and prevalent tendencies that heavily favor vanilla (non-multihit or -hitbuilt) weapons via the degree that methods other than Save TP for increasing WS frequency, methods garnered by procuring an OAT weapon or having a proper hitbuild hence being a good DD outside of Voidwatch, actually become counter-intuitive to increasing damage output?
`What a contrived and baseless coincidence! What a staggeringly different world I live in with the revelation that with just +10 DEX a weapon can raise a lowly AH DRK into a job that deals over half the damage of a 99 Ukon WAR (in the sole event of the game they've already dedicated copious resources to)~!`
Yeah, this conversation is worthless. I know you guys are smarter than this.
`What a contrived and baseless coincidence! What a staggeringly different world I live in with the revelation that with just +10 DEX a weapon can raise a lowly AH DRK into a job that deals over half the damage of a 99 Ukon WAR (in the sole event of the game they've already dedicated copious resources to)~!`
Yeah, this conversation is worthless. I know you guys are smarter than this.
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Airships on fire off the shoulder of Bahamut. I watched Scapula Beams glitter in the dark near the Three Mage Gate...
You're new here, aren't you?
Nilatai wrote:
Vlorsutes wrote:
There's always...not trolling him?
You're new here, aren't you?
Its not about being smart, its now about you dictating what time is worth. Perhaps to you it is a waste of time, someone else however might find the time invested to be well worth it. At the end of the day if it is doing more damage than AH stuff, even by .01% it is still technically better. The only variable that can be questioned is time, but time only applies to you. Personally I agree it is a waste of time, but who am I to speak for others.
HEY GOOGLE. **** OFF YOU. **** YOUR ******** SEARCH ENGINE IN ITS ******* ****** BINARY ***. ALL DAY LONG.
There's a huge gap in the DD spectrum at the moment. Due to personal experience with relic holders, I tend to not equate having an R/M/E with being good at the related jobs, but that means the only explanation for the absolutely massive gap that I observe between good non-R/M/E users and good R/M/E users is the damage potential of their weapons.
Ragnarok level 99 - 143 base damage, 431 delay, Critical Hit Rate +14%, 2.5x proc on the first swing of an attack round probably 16% of the time
OAT GS level 99 - 104 base damage, 480 delay, 40% OAT rate
Under optimal conditions for its comparison (perfectly capped fSTR for the OAT GS and only the same amount for Ragnarok, and assuming 0% DA in both situations and ignoring Rag's 2.5x damage procs and crit rate) its DPS still lags Ragnarok by 5%. Using a moderate amount of Double Attack (20%) and 8 fSTR (at some point I figured out this is the fSTR I have on WAR against Morta in my TP set) while still ignoring 2.5x damage procs and the crit rate, its DPS lags Ragnarok by 20%. Using an 11 Fighter's Roll with a WAR (+24%, wikia values) and 8 fSTR and assuming 2.5x damage procs at a 16% rate for Ragnarok while still ignoring crits, its DPS lags Ragnarok's by 50%. In the last case, which includes pretty reasonable buffs if you have a COR, there's also not a very large difference in WS frequency between the two and Ragnarok WSs about 15% harder (assuming 200 STR in your WS set and a <108 VIT target):
480, 5 hits to 100 TP : 3 rounds average = 1442 delay without delay reduction or 288 with capped delay reduction, or 408 with capped delay reduction accounting for WS/JA delay
431, 6 hits to 100 TP : 4.16 rounds average = 1800 delay without delay reduction or 360 with capped delay reduction, or 480 with capped delay reduction accounting for WS/JA delay
So the OAT GS WSs 18% more often (ignoring any extra TP overflow it may have and the greater cost of inefficiency with it), but WSs 15% softer, which works out to exactly break-even on WS damage if used optimally. 50% less TP phase damage (minimum, still ignoring crits) and break-even for WS damage (maximum, assuming optimal usage and ignoring overflow). Even if they're absolutely inhumanly perfect, I'd expect the OAT GS user to lose to an equally skilled Ragnarok user by 25% (same WS damage component as the Ragnarok, half the TP phase damage as the Ragnarok, so assuming a 50/50 split for the Ragnarok user then it's effectively a 25/50 split for the OAT GS user). This entire analysis was carried out assuming Ragnarok's accuracy boost is useless.
I already assumed optimal playstyle and optimal efficiency and made essentially every assumption in favor of what is widely considered the best non-R/E GS option, so the spoilered math supports my assumption that the lower performance I observe in game from OAT GS users is a result of their weapon rather than their playstyle. As you start to introduce inefficiency, account for everything I ignored that favors Ragnarok, add other JAs uses, etc. it begins to affect the OAT GS user more than the Ragnarok GS user and it doesn't take long to slide down to the very substantial damage difference that I observe in practice. Furthermore, the OAT GS is likely the closest magian competition to an R/M/E weapon of any 2H weapon type because so much GS damage comes from Resolution and Resolution's mod is so high that base weapon damage has little effect on it. Something like Hoarfrost Blade is competitive when you have high amounts of DA, but it's still unlikely to be better. STR/Attack GS might be better, but if you sacrifice your 6-hit then the difference would be pretty slight.
So you can either invest 4mil making a STR/Attack GS or OAT GS that is still going to lose handily to a well-used Ragnarok, or you can farm gil by doing Ig-Alima to upgrade your Gram to a Hoarfrost blade, continue to farm Dynamis/Salvage, and use all that gil to buy a 99 Ragnarok. They cost something like 200mil these days and if you start farming for it you will get there much faster than you expect. I suspect that this is why SE thinks it is okay to have such a large potential damage gap between R/M/E options and non-R/M/E options.
At 75, the damage gap was much smaller for most weapon types. For instance:
Bravura - D99, 488 delay, 8% 2x damage procs on the first hit, Acc+20
Perdu Voulge - D96, 504 delay, 10 Atk, 5 Acc
At the time of Perdu's release, Bravura's 488 delay meant you had to make a few more sacrifices (using Askar Korazin, if you could get it) to get the STP to 6-hit on WAR/SAM. The WS damage increase was minor (3 base damage). The WS frequency increase was minor (~3%). The accuracy increase was minor (if you're using Askar Korazin instead of E.body for the STP). The TP-phase increase was the most significant, a 13% increase. Relics were an improvement at that point of the game, but the improvement was much much smaller than what we observe now. To be honest, I have been anticipating an announcement of non-R/M/E magian system expansion for quite a while now because it's so obviously "unbalanced" and pushes casuals away from DD jobs.
Ragnarok level 99 - 143 base damage, 431 delay, Critical Hit Rate +14%, 2.5x proc on the first swing of an attack round probably 16% of the time
OAT GS level 99 - 104 base damage, 480 delay, 40% OAT rate
Under optimal conditions for its comparison (perfectly capped fSTR for the OAT GS and only the same amount for Ragnarok, and assuming 0% DA in both situations and ignoring Rag's 2.5x damage procs and crit rate) its DPS still lags Ragnarok by 5%. Using a moderate amount of Double Attack (20%) and 8 fSTR (at some point I figured out this is the fSTR I have on WAR against Morta in my TP set) while still ignoring 2.5x damage procs and the crit rate, its DPS lags Ragnarok by 20%. Using an 11 Fighter's Roll with a WAR (+24%, wikia values) and 8 fSTR and assuming 2.5x damage procs at a 16% rate for Ragnarok while still ignoring crits, its DPS lags Ragnarok's by 50%. In the last case, which includes pretty reasonable buffs if you have a COR, there's also not a very large difference in WS frequency between the two and Ragnarok WSs about 15% harder (assuming 200 STR in your WS set and a <108 VIT target):
480, 5 hits to 100 TP : 3 rounds average = 1442 delay without delay reduction or 288 with capped delay reduction, or 408 with capped delay reduction accounting for WS/JA delay
431, 6 hits to 100 TP : 4.16 rounds average = 1800 delay without delay reduction or 360 with capped delay reduction, or 480 with capped delay reduction accounting for WS/JA delay
So the OAT GS WSs 18% more often (ignoring any extra TP overflow it may have and the greater cost of inefficiency with it), but WSs 15% softer, which works out to exactly break-even on WS damage if used optimally. 50% less TP phase damage (minimum, still ignoring crits) and break-even for WS damage (maximum, assuming optimal usage and ignoring overflow). Even if they're absolutely inhumanly perfect, I'd expect the OAT GS user to lose to an equally skilled Ragnarok user by 25% (same WS damage component as the Ragnarok, half the TP phase damage as the Ragnarok, so assuming a 50/50 split for the Ragnarok user then it's effectively a 25/50 split for the OAT GS user). This entire analysis was carried out assuming Ragnarok's accuracy boost is useless.
I already assumed optimal playstyle and optimal efficiency and made essentially every assumption in favor of what is widely considered the best non-R/E GS option, so the spoilered math supports my assumption that the lower performance I observe in game from OAT GS users is a result of their weapon rather than their playstyle. As you start to introduce inefficiency, account for everything I ignored that favors Ragnarok, add other JAs uses, etc. it begins to affect the OAT GS user more than the Ragnarok GS user and it doesn't take long to slide down to the very substantial damage difference that I observe in practice. Furthermore, the OAT GS is likely the closest magian competition to an R/M/E weapon of any 2H weapon type because so much GS damage comes from Resolution and Resolution's mod is so high that base weapon damage has little effect on it. Something like Hoarfrost Blade is competitive when you have high amounts of DA, but it's still unlikely to be better. STR/Attack GS might be better, but if you sacrifice your 6-hit then the difference would be pretty slight.
So you can either invest 4mil making a STR/Attack GS or OAT GS that is still going to lose handily to a well-used Ragnarok, or you can farm gil by doing Ig-Alima to upgrade your Gram to a Hoarfrost blade, continue to farm Dynamis/Salvage, and use all that gil to buy a 99 Ragnarok. They cost something like 200mil these days and if you start farming for it you will get there much faster than you expect. I suspect that this is why SE thinks it is okay to have such a large potential damage gap between R/M/E options and non-R/M/E options.
At 75, the damage gap was much smaller for most weapon types. For instance:
Bravura - D99, 488 delay, 8% 2x damage procs on the first hit, Acc+20
Perdu Voulge - D96, 504 delay, 10 Atk, 5 Acc
At the time of Perdu's release, Bravura's 488 delay meant you had to make a few more sacrifices (using Askar Korazin, if you could get it) to get the STP to 6-hit on WAR/SAM. The WS damage increase was minor (3 base damage). The WS frequency increase was minor (~3%). The accuracy increase was minor (if you're using Askar Korazin instead of E.body for the STP). The TP-phase increase was the most significant, a 13% increase. Relics were an improvement at that point of the game, but the improvement was much much smaller than what we observe now. To be honest, I have been anticipating an announcement of non-R/M/E magian system expansion for quite a while now because it's so obviously "unbalanced" and pushes casuals away from DD jobs.
Allow me to point out the absurdity more succinctly: Someone with no Voidwatch clears, maybe a half dozen stones for that matter, asks you what weapon they should use for their freshly-99 DRK once they have 5/5 Resolution and finished other merits and finish skilling up with Ferrara.
Are you really gonna say Hoarfrost Blade? No! You tell them to go spend 800k on Gram, which they can even sell once they have something better (I did, at 300k profit even). That's why it was an asinine endorsement. "It performs well in Voidwatch" is probably the biggest confirmation bias I have ever seen. Seriously, ouch.
Yeah, Magians need another tier, and not just base damage. They jacked R/M/E so much with just the 90-99 upgrades (despite needing to make them 'worth it') that nothing else competing is more the problem than where to start. This game has indeed become Ragnarok Fantasy XI. The other issue is just how ridiculous Resolution is. An attack penalty does not a downside make when you give it to the job with the highest attack in the game.
Another option is another rescaling of TP/Delay, but that would probably just turn the current 5-hit wall that neuters Scythe into a 4-hit wall and even more troubles with WS saturation. It already favors OAT over Rag as best it can. 480 delay is currently 'optimal' from a TP/time and hitbuild standpoint. There'd have to be some other approach, like a trait that favors higher delay without using a method of, or resulting in, more cycle compression.
Going back to the attack penalty concept, you could make the penalty mandatory much like Level Correction was made to be long ago. This could also be lent to effects like Bio, which would then always have an effect on damage dealt, which would be good for mitigation of mob->player attacks too. Unfortunately... this would probably hurt DRG and Drakesbane (which also has a penalty) more than DRK and Resolution, lawl.
So that makes two things this game needs or it will just continue to devolve into an even more severe case of the gearing tropes it already experiences: Haste Rework, Attack/Defense Rework (and still more for Mob vs. Player than the issue currently discussed).
Though I think unstacking and lightly uncapping haste categories would have a very positive effect all around. It's the best way to raise the gear ceiling for all jobs and all weapons while retaining certain 'themes' such as Desperate Blows or Dual Wield. This might remedy enough of the 'cap haste, stack multihit' paradigm to let non-relic shine a little. Subtractive haste was a mistake from the start anyway.
Edited, Nov 24th 2012 11:09am by Raelix
Are you really gonna say Hoarfrost Blade? No! You tell them to go spend 800k on Gram, which they can even sell once they have something better (I did, at 300k profit even). That's why it was an asinine endorsement. "It performs well in Voidwatch" is probably the biggest confirmation bias I have ever seen. Seriously, ouch.
Yeah, Magians need another tier, and not just base damage. They jacked R/M/E so much with just the 90-99 upgrades (despite needing to make them 'worth it') that nothing else competing is more the problem than where to start. This game has indeed become Ragnarok Fantasy XI. The other issue is just how ridiculous Resolution is. An attack penalty does not a downside make when you give it to the job with the highest attack in the game.
Another option is another rescaling of TP/Delay, but that would probably just turn the current 5-hit wall that neuters Scythe into a 4-hit wall and even more troubles with WS saturation. It already favors OAT over Rag as best it can. 480 delay is currently 'optimal' from a TP/time and hitbuild standpoint. There'd have to be some other approach, like a trait that favors higher delay without using a method of, or resulting in, more cycle compression.
Going back to the attack penalty concept, you could make the penalty mandatory much like Level Correction was made to be long ago. This could also be lent to effects like Bio, which would then always have an effect on damage dealt, which would be good for mitigation of mob->player attacks too. Unfortunately... this would probably hurt DRG and Drakesbane (which also has a penalty) more than DRK and Resolution, lawl.
So that makes two things this game needs or it will just continue to devolve into an even more severe case of the gearing tropes it already experiences: Haste Rework, Attack/Defense Rework (and still more for Mob vs. Player than the issue currently discussed).
Though I think unstacking and lightly uncapping haste categories would have a very positive effect all around. It's the best way to raise the gear ceiling for all jobs and all weapons while retaining certain 'themes' such as Desperate Blows or Dual Wield. This might remedy enough of the 'cap haste, stack multihit' paradigm to let non-relic shine a little. Subtractive haste was a mistake from the start anyway.
Edited, Nov 24th 2012 11:09am by Raelix
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Airships on fire off the shoulder of Bahamut. I watched Scapula Beams glitter in the dark near the Three Mage Gate...
You're new here, aren't you?
Nilatai wrote:
Vlorsutes wrote:
There's always...not trolling him?
You're new here, aren't you?
Hoarfrost is a fine placeholder while someone is working on an OaT or a Rag.
As for "doing so much Ig alima"
BWHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHA
I've thrown maybe 10 of them away already, and I don't even do Ig that much. Hoarfrost is a stupidly common drop, along with the Scyth. Nearly everyone I know has one or has thrown one away, most of them don't have a geared / kited out DRK. If they ever desired to build a DRK then they already have an acceptable weapon ready to use while they build something better. Why would someone spend the money on an AH GS when chances are they already have a better weapon sitting on their moggle.
As for "doing so much Ig alima"
BWHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHA
I've thrown maybe 10 of them away already, and I don't even do Ig that much. Hoarfrost is a stupidly common drop, along with the Scyth. Nearly everyone I know has one or has thrown one away, most of them don't have a geared / kited out DRK. If they ever desired to build a DRK then they already have an acceptable weapon ready to use while they build something better. Why would someone spend the money on an AH GS when chances are they already have a better weapon sitting on their moggle.
ITT: Hoarfrost DRKs dig for validation.
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Airships on fire off the shoulder of Bahamut. I watched Scapula Beams glitter in the dark near the Three Mage Gate...
You're new here, aren't you?
Nilatai wrote:
Vlorsutes wrote:
There's always...not trolling him?
You're new here, aren't you?
Raelix wrote:
ITT: Hoarfrost DRKs dig for validation.
http://www.ffxiah.com/item/19749/ragnarok
*Cough* *Cough*
Keep trying.
The drop rate isn't super high, but it's better than most other voidwatch drops: http://www.ffxidb.com/items/19175
Byrthnoth wrote:
The drop rate isn't super high, but it's better than most other voidwatch drops: http://www.ffxidb.com/items/19175
Yeah but you'll be doing 6~12 of them at a time. Means chances are that you'll get it while seeking the body.
I can't believe you are still arguing over this. It shouldn't even be an argument. You do not have the luxury of telling people what is worth their time or not...and neither do I. If it out DPS's anything on the AH it is better, and that is all that matters, how much is irrelevant, and time value is impossible to use in a comparison as we all value it differently.
(god I sound like a broken record.)
(god I sound like a broken record.)
HEY GOOGLE. **** OFF YOU. **** YOUR ******** SEARCH ENGINE IN ITS ******* ****** BINARY ***. ALL DAY LONG.
Well, it's fine for those of us who only really do endgame on mage jobs. My poor little WAR still uses Vermeil Bhuj, because I'm working on Dharp for my main job and don't feel the need to invest in two empies at once. Since my WAR's main use these days is red procs in Abyssea when our actual Ukon war is absent, and for that I'm tossing on low damage weapons anyway, the Vermeil is adequate to finish killing whatever thing we're killing.
If I considered WAR my main job, though, I'd be squiggling around to get my grubby mitts on Ukon.
Edited, Nov 25th 2012 10:42am by catwho
If I considered WAR my main job, though, I'd be squiggling around to get my grubby mitts on Ukon.
Edited, Nov 25th 2012 10:42am by catwho
I know you have Rag, Saevel, I just wanted to see somebody get indignant and defensive over a weapon they wouldn't even take out of the box at this point.
Catwho almost raises a point, but a weapon from an oft-spammed Abyssea KI NM does not equate in severity of obtainment to a weapon from one of the hardest mobs in the whole game, and the suggestions was that somebody start with this weapon?
Relic owners being out-of-touch with accessibility? What else is new. Keep acting like Hoarfrost just takes showing up to a few runs and doesn't require competence to even be allowed (unless you're the 20.2% hit rate NIN in yesterday's Ig run...)
Catwho almost raises a point, but a weapon from an oft-spammed Abyssea KI NM does not equate in severity of obtainment to a weapon from one of the hardest mobs in the whole game, and the suggestions was that somebody start with this weapon?
Relic owners being out-of-touch with accessibility? What else is new. Keep acting like Hoarfrost just takes showing up to a few runs and doesn't require competence to even be allowed (unless you're the 20.2% hit rate NIN in yesterday's Ig run...)
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Airships on fire off the shoulder of Bahamut. I watched Scapula Beams glitter in the dark near the Three Mage Gate...
You're new here, aren't you?
Nilatai wrote:
Vlorsutes wrote:
There's always...not trolling him?
You're new here, aren't you?
ITT: Raelix acts like Ig-Alima is some extremely difficult top-tier mob that only the elite uber guys have any business fighting
Versus doing what... One? Two? Maybe three Dynamis tops to buy a Gram? Even just doing the early runs to have more than three stones breaks that threshold of worth as a sidegrade.
Go ahead. Lower your standards to let the guy get a Hoarfrost just so you can turn your back on him the moment you wanna do NNI or Legion.
Go ahead. Lower your standards to let the guy get a Hoarfrost just so you can turn your back on him the moment you wanna do NNI or Legion.
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Airships on fire off the shoulder of Bahamut. I watched Scapula Beams glitter in the dark near the Three Mage Gate...
You're new here, aren't you?
Nilatai wrote:
Vlorsutes wrote:
There's always...not trolling him?
You're new here, aren't you?
I have no idea what you're talking about with HQ Nyzul or Legion, but I'm pretty sure none of it refuted my point.
Simply put, free > 800k, and Hoarfrost is an extremely easy drop off Iggy along with the other spiffy things he probably-won't-but-potentially-could drop. What do you think most people would rather go for?
Simply put, free > 800k, and Hoarfrost is an extremely easy drop off Iggy along with the other spiffy things he probably-won't-but-potentially-could drop. What do you think most people would rather go for?
Fynlar wrote:
ITT: Raelix acts like Ig-Alima is some extremely difficult top-tier mob that only the elite uber guys have any business fighting
Only thing I can think of is Rae confused Ig'Alima with Bot Rex. PUG's used to constantly spam Ig, especially during the initial rush when people wanted their Emps to 99.
Funny thing is I actually used Hoarfrost while I was building my Rag, got it off an Ig run and it was better then what I had at the time. once I finished Rag to 90+ the Hoarfrost went into my Moghouse as a pretty sword for a mannequin.
As long as someone's working towards a better weapon then there is no shame in using one. They'll pick it up naturally from doing Voidwatch, its not exactly Toci's here.
Guys.. i have to say this, for the people making an autobiography in a single post, please,
http://img82.imageshack.us/img82/7600/forumskirtmsgpl9og2rl3.jpg
But I will say is that my new Elitist LS ive joined, they all agree on this for the Top DDs
1. WAR, DRK, and SAM around the same/tied
#4 DRG
#5 MNK
I personally am a Monk, and i have yet to get fully merited, the best godlike gear possible at 99,
so i can't test myself but i will come back later to refute this order if i actually out damage any of the 4 listed above monk
Edited, Nov 26th 2012 6:18am by AlexFitz
Edited, Nov 26th 2012 6:19am by AlexFitz
http://img82.imageshack.us/img82/7600/forumskirtmsgpl9og2rl3.jpg
But I will say is that my new Elitist LS ive joined, they all agree on this for the Top DDs
1. WAR, DRK, and SAM around the same/tied
#4 DRG
#5 MNK
I personally am a Monk, and i have yet to get fully merited, the best godlike gear possible at 99,
so i can't test myself but i will come back later to refute this order if i actually out damage any of the 4 listed above monk
Edited, Nov 26th 2012 6:18am by AlexFitz
Edited, Nov 26th 2012 6:19am by AlexFitz
AlexFitz wrote:
Guys.. i have to say this, for the people making an autobiography in a single post, please,
http://img82.imageshack.us/img82/7600/forumskirtmsgpl9og2rl3.jpg
But I will say is that my new Elitist LS ive joined, they all agree on this for the Top DDs
1. WAR, DRK, and SAM around the same/tied
#4 DRG
#5 MNK
I personally am a Monk, and i have yet to get fully merited, the best godlike gear possible at 99,
so i can't test myself but i will come back later to refute this order if i actually out damage any of the 4 listed above monk
Edited, Nov 26th 2012 6:18am by AlexFitz
Edited, Nov 26th 2012 6:19am by AlexFitz
http://img82.imageshack.us/img82/7600/forumskirtmsgpl9og2rl3.jpg
But I will say is that my new Elitist LS ive joined, they all agree on this for the Top DDs
1. WAR, DRK, and SAM around the same/tied
#4 DRG
#5 MNK
I personally am a Monk, and i have yet to get fully merited, the best godlike gear possible at 99,
so i can't test myself but i will come back later to refute this order if i actually out damage any of the 4 listed above monk
Edited, Nov 26th 2012 6:18am by AlexFitz
Edited, Nov 26th 2012 6:19am by AlexFitz
For the first comment, that's personal preference. I am notorious for typing out very long, involved responses to posts, primarily because I want to make sure that I get my point across as thoroughly as possible. Sticking to a short, concise sentence or paragraph won't necessarily do that.
As for the DD line-up, that's situational at best. There are several, several different factors you have to account for, such as mob type, weapons/equipment, buffs, outside support, and even just how aggressive they are. If you're looking at an optimal situation for all those factors (mob doesn't have any weird damage resistances, weapons/equipment are all top caliber, same buffs, support, etc) then I'd say, at present, a Drk should come out ahead, but I'd put Dragoon as being on par with everyone else in that #1 slot. Monk, however, falls short primarily due to it not being a two-handed job, and partially suffers from the same issues that plague single-handed/dual wielding jobs from being competitive in "end game" fights anymore (by "end game" I mean Legion more than anything).
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