I support gil buying.Follow

Absolute BS, this is a bullshyte attack at SE...

Oh, its SE's fault that a bunch of cheating ********* usurped their game and gave it to the highest bidder?

Stupidity shines through. Who would be banned in this scenario? Stupid cheaters? I, for one, would applaud such action.

It would be like SE designed it before gilsellers corrupted it, no?

Actually, SE hate RMT more than I do. You fail again.

Please remove yourself from this activity and seek a new pursuit for all of our sakes.. please?

Trnaslation, I think I'm better than you.

Its a shame you resort to disrespectful belittlement.

Edited, Wed May 10 12:26:02 2006 by avanent

Translation:

Acctually I was not using group in a political sense, I have no desire to argue about politics online. I was referring to your group in a more general manner, "Those who support RMT."

What does that make me? Nothing, it changes nothing. What does that make you? Flamboyant. If you don't owe me an explination, don't give me one. I'm glad if you did all of those things that you said, however, flaunting it here does nothing for your arguement. I'm not saying RMT is the same as Rape or Murder, oh far from it. However, that does not make it any less of a reprehensible action.



I love how blatantly conceited your arguement is. You use a tone of superiorty and condescending as if everything you say is the divine truth. All arguements have flaws in them, but yours has quite a few more than you realise.

You have fallen into the pit of exaggurated simplification. You've run out of intelligent ways to back up your arguement so you simplify everything as far as you possibly can.

You may view an MMO as a fancy communication device, however I'm sure many more people see it as something else. There are many other things to be done in MMOs, in fact a decent amount of the time I'm playing I play alone with no communication at all. MMORPGs are like all games an art form(oh god this is going to spawn even more arguements) just as movies and books are.

A mode of communication and a form of art are different. Art utilizes modes of communcation. Books utilize writing, movies utilize television, games utilize computers and MMOs utilize more specifically the internet. Can I profit off of Lord of the Rings by selling tickets to my home theatre for people to watch it? No. Could I make my own movie and then sell tickets to that? Yes.



*sigh* Perhaps if you read more carefully you would realize I used the word ruining which is present tense, not ruined which is past tense. Allow me to enlighten you with the difference. The word ruined implys that something came to ruin in the past, while the word ruining implys that something is coming to ruin at the present time however has not yet become ruin.

No I do not beleive FFXI will ever be ruined entirely by RMT, however in the coming generations those who are submissive will be forced to Pay the Piper in cold hard real life money, or quite the genre forever. It will require extreme action by the developers or a 3rd party to stop RMT. I have no reason to quit MMOs yet. Why do you not lay down and die right now, seeing as your death is inevitable?



I'm speaking of external profit, outside the game world, and no no one is profiting. Windower is free ware. Also windower does not allow you to speed hack or collect gil/drops faster. Those are entirely seperate programs. Windower does not in any way affect Final Fantasy XI server-side. Also RMT and windower are not associated in any way, and again no profits are made from windower, so how could they be "riding the money generated" if no money was generated.



If your going to use a condescending tone at least have some inkling of what your talking about. Most players use windower so they can continue to use their computer for work/school/recreation while waiting for things in FFXI to happen (PT invites, airship to arrive etc) I do not see any reason why we should have to sacrafice everything else happening in reality to play a game. In fact if windower did not exist I can guarantee that at any given moment there would be a mean drop in amount of players on the server by at almost 5%. Just because some people need to get work done and would like to play at the same time.

As for plugins, plugins are usually created by third parties (where those who created windower are the first party). Also, some plugins provide only aesthetic changes to FFXI, for instance increasing terrain draw distance (not model) by no means providing any unfair advantage. Unless you consider a prettier landscape an unfair advantage. Those plugins that do provide an advantage do so in only a few very indirect ways and most people choose not to download and use them. They do things like tell you the exact % of a targets hp, or tell you the distance from a target. Again you've over simplified things. If I own a car I have the ability to run someone over, therefore I should be arrested for having the potential to run someone over? You could in fact without windowing the game get all of these advantages.



Your arguement is riddled with exaggurated simplification. Assault and shoplifting are not the same, therefore they are not prosecuted the same. Orange Juice and Apple Juice are not the same, that is why they taste different. You could say the things you say about anything. You need to realize that the world is not black and white.

CellyO,

The devil is in the details. First of all there are some items for which the supply will remain exactly the same regardless of RMT. There will ALWAYS be people camping O. Kote. Even with jerk RMTs camping it there is always at least 1 legit player there camping too. There are items such as peacock charm and snipers which are no longer provided by RMT (they are only obtained from people reselling them, bcnms and now assault). Some RMT do bcnms/KS fights but for the most part they stick with KS fights and don't bother with BCNM. I have a friend who is a chinese gil seller (we have some very interesting discussions on the matter, its quite fascinating) so I have gotten an inside like at quite a few of the RMT linkshells (on my server at least they aren't individual companies but rather just like NA HNMs with the various RMT trying to get into the better shells run by other RMT).

There certainly are items whose introduction into the economy has been increased by RMT. One example that comes to mind is Southern Pearls. The NM itself isn't worth camping, but the RMT have the pop conditions on Sea Hog so well that usually it only takes 2-3 kills inbetween camping siren Hair NMs every 1-2 hours to get him to pop. However just because the availability of some items are inreased by RMT does not change the fact that the introduction of others is constant regardless of RMT.

From basic economics we can have a price/demand curve (i.e. a function that tells us the number of people willing to buy a product at a given price). We can look at something like snipers rings the supply of which is no longer affected by RMT (and I would argue never was, people were always camping than damn jelly, ALWAYS). There are a certain number of people that are willing to pay 2 million gil for snipers (given by the price/demand curve). If people didn't buy gil there would be fewer people able/willing to pay 2 million gil for one (this is your own admission since your whole argument is that people buy gil so they can buy better equip they otherwise wouldn't be able to). Therefore the demand has increased by RMT but the supply is the same. I think you know the consequence.

Is it possible some items right now are cheaper because of RMT? Certainly, I'm sure there are some items. However its not all items, the introduction of many items is not affected by RMT. Moreover in order for your argument to hold water the items which do have increased introduction rate would need to be introduced a rate proportional to the increased demand due to people buying gil. You can't just say they both increase so they are a wash, when in some cases thats clearly not true, some it might be, and others the supply may increase beyond the additional demand for a while.

Next is the issue that people RMTing would increase your exp/hr. I've already conceded in some cases that it will. However what is up in the air is what percentage of the cases this is and to what extent. People argue all the time on these boards that jobs are simple and I really think they are. However it doesn't change the fact that the reason I tend to have bad experience parties (75 pld, 75 brd, 63 rdm, 59 thf, 56 cor, 50 war, 43 mnk, and just about everything else 30+) is because I get idiots or other non-gear related circumstances (i.e. everywhere we try to party is absolutely packed, connection problems for party members, or akward level gap). Somehow the fact that the thf in my party has strider boots instead of leaping, and links consistently on the pull doesn't make the fact that he RMT'd help experience in the slightest. Even through the 60s I get tanks that don't provoke every 30 seconds (ninjas and paladins). Whms don't haste. I had a rdm who refused to consistently refresh the pld two days ago (he told the pld he wasn't going to bother refreshing him and for the pld to equip a dark staff and just rest when his mp got low). Most whms are horrible in LoO (before I get told that I shouldn't criticize since I haven't leveled whm through there, I have partied with good whms there and I have done all the paralyna/silena as bard and rdm through there). I've had countless blms that just go afk after about 30 minutes of exp and never return.

Lets think about the hard jobs to find for a party. Healer, refresher, tank. Whm needs dark staff and light staff, end of story. I don't care what else they have for exp, if they know what they are doing a naked whm with dark and light staff will do more than 90% of the whms I end up with. Next is tank. I've leveled pld there are so many plds looking for group at most times its silly (yes yes everyone wants ninja, and usually there are a couple lfg as well, but I'll emphasize pld here). Pld wears AF. Its one of the cheapest jobs to 75. Throw on some drone earrings, some AF and some NQ vit rings and you've spent < 150k to equip yourself. Food can be incredibly cheap (yes tacos are expensive and thats what I used when I leveled pld but there are plenty of options that are very good and won't noticably slow down exp). Grab a pld in AF and you're set. Finally we have refresher. Again this is another job that most people are just crappy at. So many rdms can't run a refresh cycle or dispel on time. I'd take the naked rdm who dispels, backup heals and has a tight refresh cycle over the well equipped one who doesn't know what they are doing any day of the week.

All that we are left with is generic DD. On rare occassions its hard to find some. Typically there are tons and tons lfg and its not hard to find some well equipped ones. If you invite someone and they are gimp just say I'm sorry this isn't going to work your gear is going to hold back exp if thats what you honestly believe will be the result. Even if you can't find dd with haubs, scorpion harnesses, etc go level on VTs and it won't make that much of a difference. Accuracy problems start going away, etc.. Might you get a little better exp if they were better equipped? Probably, but how 1337 do people have to be for you to be satisfied with the experience? What is a satisfactory amount of exp for you. Getting good experience can usually be accomplished by something very simple: don't level off of beetles or crabs. Thats one of the secrets to successful experiencing.

Now I will contend to a very large extent that the gear on mages doesn't matter, tank gear for pld is incredibly cheap so the real source of exp/hr that you are concerned about is DD. Lets examine the "good" gear for them. Haubergeon, SH, snipers and possibly kote. I've already commented on the fact that snipers introduction is not impacted by RMT because its only from BCNM and assault. The introduction of Haubs and SHs is basically equivalent to the introduction of damascus ingots and venomous claws. The source of ingots is the following: KS fights, Roc, Simurgh, Overlord Bakgodek, Byakko, Kirin, Tiamat, Vrtra. RMT don't touch Vrtra or tiamat on my server with a 10 foot pole. Only one of the RMT shells does Kirin (the rest don't have the firepower for Kirin). Simurgh, Roc, Overlord will be claimed within seconds regardless of RMT. They will always be claimed upon popping. The only significant introduction from RMT is Byakko and KS fights. Both of these are forced pops. However the amount of legitimate players doing KS fights, killing gods is much much greater on my server than the amount of RMT doing it. What we have is a very small inrease in the introduction of ingots due to RMT. The same story holds for V. Claws.

I honestly don't know if the increased production of v claws and ingots due to RMT is in proportion to the amount of people buying gil for those items. I would wager not, due to the fact that RMT sell lots of gil which comes from items which have no realistic impact on exp/hr (speed belt, juggernaut, siren hair, etc...). Of course not all gil is bought to increase exp/hr. Regardless items like O. Kote, Snipers, Life Belts, etc have not been increased in production proportionate to the amount of people buying gil for them. This means that legitimate players do have to pay more for some of these items.

Your argument that you enjoy so much is just too vague. I realize your original post is an opinion and as such does not have to be a perfect logical argument. However explicit within the justification of your opinion is the assumption that your exp will be better due to people RMTing, yet the extent to which you hope people RMT and the amount of you think this will really impact you is vague. Moreover I feel that the impact of people RMTing good gear has on exp/hr is minimal and can often be made up easily in other ways (i.e. not partying with idiots). I have quite a bit of experience with partying and this more or less has been true for me. Finally while you do agree that RMT does hurt some players I think you are trying to downplay this aspect based on faulty logic. You have not presented any evidence that the amount of introduction of new items by RMT will be always proportionate to the amount of increased demand from people buying gil. In some cases this is blatantly false, meaning in some cases the people you are partying with don't have great gear BECAUSE other people RMT'd not just becuase they themselves didn't.

Edit: My original post said "my thief" instead of thief in my party, making it unclear whether I was talking about myself or a party member. Edited for clarification.

Edited, Wed May 10 14:19:38 2006 by Kwontos

Slow down CellyO, and maybe you'll learn something. Besides, I've barely gotten warmed up. Your last post is a big improvement, much less drivel. But you're far from done. You've made ethical claims which need to be backed up and proved by you, far and above the aspects I've touched. It's about time you found something of the many points I've so far made to directly address and avoid skating around. Let's start with what you think you've shown:



Abolutely, every new character, gil sellers included, increases supply of *some* things. So what? It can be "most" things, 90%+ of things. Every new character that turns in their adventurer's coupon increases the gil supply by 50g. Is 1 billion gil sellers turning in adventurer's coupons every 10 minutes going to make anybody but the gil sellers and gil buyers better off? Of course, everyone else will be worse off. Every extra single gil brought onto the server by gil sellers makes everyone else worse off, have less value. Agree? Just as in real life any single counterfeiting of any single government currency by defintion makes all other users of that currency worse off. I'll get to seals and ENMs later.

This however is all immaterial to the transactions and changes which occur when dollars are used to purchase stuff in game. There can be one gil seller that increased supply of one thing by one, there can 1,000 gil sellers that increased the supply of 100 items by 10,000. Obviously, there are many things additional characters add to the economy, whether they are gil sellers or not.

But this is what you need to note and address. No amount of gil sellers will increase the spawns of NMs or HNMs. More gil sellers camping those will always increase the competition for those NMs and HNMs, by definition of more gil sellers competing for those spawns. Drop rates are unaffected by whether there are no gil sellers or 1,000 gil sellers. It should be incredibly obvious that if we mutliplied the competition of every hot NM or HNM by 100 gil sellers, every legit player is indeed worse off and harmed by those gil sellers mere camping activity (even before they make any actual claims). It's undeniable that the more gil sellers which camp those spawns, the harder it is for legit players to directly camp those spawns themselves. That's undeniably true. Of course it's just as undeniably true that 1,000 legit new players could cause exactly the same effect as the gil sellers. But it is irrefutable that when you add XYZ gil sellers to the playerbase population equation, XYZ gil sellers have increased competition, price, and time required to obtain those NM and HNM drops, for the entire server.

Now this is an important part you have yet to grasp. At any moment in time the supply of items on a server = the supply of items on a server. For this analysis, it is immaterial who, what, why, or how the supply of items on the server got to be the current supply of items on the server. Make sure you understand that. Supply = Supply.

Given that supply = supply, the effect of gil buying still in every case whatsoever increases the prices across all items (unevenly, disproportionately, and unsimultaneously) by the amount of dollars bid. It doesn't matter how you artificially break down the labeling of the producers of that supply: gil seller, legit, fisher, farmer, doesn't matter. Don't worry I'm getting to what you think the point you made is. The supply created is the supply created. Dollars bid still have in every case an inflationary effect on the prices of all those items by every slightest single dollar spent to the maximum dollars actually spent. The effect is absolutely the same, whether there are gil sellers or no gil sellers. Dollars bid is an effectual increase in the money supply every single time they are used. Thus, in every single instance of RMT gil buying, inflation is *caused* by that RMT gil buying.

Now that you understand that supply = supply (no matter how the supply is brought about), every time dollars are bid and used to purchase in game items either directly or roundaboutly by purchasing gil first, the distribution of those items is irrefutably different than what the distribution of those items would be without cheating.

Buying gil changes the item distriubtions and order in which items are received, every single time gil is bought. It doesn't matter where or how the items were produced, buying gil changes the distribution. This is irrefutable. This is the *only* reason people buy gil in the first place. There would be absolutely no reason to buy gil whatsoever if buying gil did not change item distributions. It would be beyond silly. Got that? Gil buying by defintions changes item distriubtion because that's the only reason whatsoever to buy gil. Since that is so, you have to answer how it is fair, how it does not harm, that a 100 point HNMLS member can be outbid for a Kirin's Osode by a 0 point HNMLS member because the 0 point HNMLS member uses cash. How does that not make the game worse, but make the game better, make experience parties better? Explain.

Now of course it's absolutely true that gil sellers increase the supply of everything they increase the supply of just as it's absolutely true legit players increase the supply of everything they increase the supply of. There's tons of untouched mobs and quests that are not done 24/7 the instant they are available. Either gil sellers or legit players could further icrease the supply of rock salt by killing more worms the instant they spawn, and doing that 24/7. That's obvious.

However, NM and HNM drops are different. This is the stuff we are talking about when we're talking about better equipped servers. The fact that gil sellers camp NMs and HNMs by definition means there are more people camping NMs and HNMs than there would be if gil sellers were not camping NMs and HNMs. Gil sellers will naturally gravitate to the camps and activities which produce the most value in the least amount of time. Wherever or whenever that activity involves competition over spawns, it is by definition more competition at that particular spawn or activity at that particular place and time, always.

Now gil sellers don't just hurt players by artificially raising all prices. They also artificially lower prices by everything they increase the supply of. What happens, and the example I gave you, was a new player must pay a much higher price for O. Kote because of gil seller competition and gil buyer bidding *and also at the same time* he receives a much lower reward than he would have otherwise for his farming activity such as fishing and making sushi. Of course, everyone pays much lower prices for sushi because of gil sellers. But it's undeniable that legit fishermen have been directly harmed by gil sellers to actual extent they fish and make sushi. Thus legit fishermen have had items which they would have possessed redistributed to others because gil sellers cause them to receive less compensation for their activity.

That's of course just as true for BCNMs and ENMs. Gil sellers increase the supply. Gil buyers do not increase the supply. Gil buyers decrease the supply for legit players by exactly the amount of supply they buy.

Gil sellers are by defintion a for profit enterprise. Gil sellers cannot make any profit whatsoever that is not paid for by gil buyers and paid for by honest players in the form of longer hours to work and more gil paid to the exact extent gil sellers conflict with honest players (which way know is not some small negligible thing). The mere fact of crowding spawns and blackmailing legit players which has been documented even at rare/ex spawns like Stroper Chyme and Leaping Lizzy is irrefutable evidence of direct harm of legit players caused by gil sellers.

Your excuse for conding gil buying and it's effects is that it leads to better equipped experience parties? Guess what you ignored so far, and is imperative that you address in order to salvage some credibility; duping items leads to better equipped servers. So duping doesn't harm the game? Why allow cheating in the form of gil buyers but not allow cheating in the form of hacking SEs servers and creating infinite items at whim, or even allow cheating in the form of hacking your personal account and taking the items from that? What moral, ethical, economic, or any base whatseover, do you have to argue against that? You're the one advocating cheating. You're the one who needs to prove one is ok and another is not. Let's see it. Why should I as the defendant of honesty profer all of the proof besides the fact that you lack the talent I possess? You've profered zero proof so far for why if gil selling should be allowed to cause harm anything else shouldn't also be allowed to cause harm.

Like I said, you've got a long long way to go to substantiate your position. So either do that or just admit that your position, followed to its logical conclusion leads to the destruction of the game of ffxi. A destruction you favor for short term selfish experience points reasons. Let's see some justification.

Im not arguing with you but RMT peopel are actually pretty hard to catch... I've been a GM in other games... And even if they do catch them, its hard to kick them out of the game because they are paid players... and sometimes, theres only suspicion, or someone saw something... but, really? they can claim they were sending money to a friend, but without actually going to an RMT site, and finding certain individuals and tracking them down in game, its hard to identify an RMT person just through FFXI... They cant say "you sent money to this person, or these people, you must be involved in RMT" not so bluntly put, but I think you know what im getting at? It's just a big mess, like a disease... bubonic plague FTW... They need more evidence than is provided by simply sending someone gil, or a /tell, to be able to really ban someone for it, and im sure legal issues could come up and thats not in SE's best interest, or so I would think... Just, my two cents

Ah... I see, fine. I get your point, now, and I understand it. It's a lot clearer and it makes sense.

But, then if you don't want to hear about it, you should point that to CellyO. CellyO in all honesty could have kept his own preference on gil buying secret and these eight pages would never have sprouted from it. I wouldn't say it's a very inclusive preference for all, but it's not necessarily wrong.

My point isn't a crusade. It's the fact that even while you, for example, admit that it does do harm overall, why start supporting? My biggest "beef" is supporting it. Again, I realize it's here and it's here to stay. A world without crime is one without humans, too. Tighten security and violators will only find better means and ways around it. The point of trying to look for a solution (as all the crusaders may wrongfully be doing, but they are trying) is that even though some can still get around tighter security, in general it will weed out many who can't keep up, at least immediately.

And, not to nitpick, but yes, there are laws about pickle sizes and other stupid stuff here in the States. Something similar to it was passed in Congress, perhaps as a rider, who knows. Did you hear about the law passed about it being illegal to annoy poeple on the internet anonymously? Yeah, that was hidden in a bill about women's rights in abuse cases, apparently. How often will that be enforced?

Look for cute stupid law books in a local bookstore. They are out there and they are official. My point is, some are better left un-enforced. There are laws prohibiting certain sex acts between consenting adults in their own homes. How in the world is anyone supposed to enforce that? Laws are not sacrosanct.

As you admit, Windower is less harmful overall and probably harder to enforce or regulate (pure speculation on my part). It's not really worth it. As CellyO noted, gil selling has affected the economy and perhaps proved the greatest factor in forcing a player to quit. More people, as myself, will admit quitting if it gets worse. SE has taken steps against it. They don't want to lose a mass of players over it. Sure, it's their game, their ToS, but overall they want subscribers to even BE under that ToS.

And, again, it's not like someone made a thread stating "I support the Windower" with their prime argument being "If more poeple use Windower for TParty plugin, I will have better SC partners in my parties, and thus get better, more efficient exp. Use Windower!" At least on my end, I have no crusade or witch hunt planned on RMT. I've been responding to the OP.

Edited, Wed May 10 17:36:38 2006 by Caes

Basically Gilsellers perpetuate economic injustice in an online fantasy game; steal fom the innocent and sell to the guilty.

One place many of us go to escape the real world's money-troubles, and now it's infested with greedy scum and scum apologists to boot.


Look. I camp Sozu Rogberry. A lot. For some reason, maybe the sheer value of the thf knife, RMT scum LOVE to camp this mob.

They claim from AFK. They voke before allowed by the claim-delay that effects legitimate campers. They don't kill placeholders, due to lack of skill / laziness / disregard for the real camper. They actually, DIE to placeholders. They overcome this the same way they kill Lord of Onzozo: with sheer numbers.

When I warped out of Uggalipeh disgusted after another 6.5 hour camp, the new RMTs were still there...

...retarding the progress of actual, legit players who love the THF job. When the THFs who need the knife come and go we tell each other when next is due, even though it means more knowledgable competition, because we want the NM to go to a REAL PLAYER.

If you support gilbuyers you support the same ******** who are best at sucking the fun out of this game; and you should reexamine your value system or find a game designed for cheaters, and go play that.

Hahahhahahhahha.

I want to thank everyone who has contributed to this thread.

It's the most entertaining thing to come out of Allah in a long time.

Human nature being what it is, people will continue to find new ways to do the wrong thing, and others will learn the new ways to stop them.

Further, many of the RMT sites prohibit S-E employees or affiliates from using their "services" or accessing their site...in order to prevent such stings from being set up. Which is, of course perfectly legal.

I'm amazed.

You people DO realize that this is a game, right?

Do you put this much time and arguement into everything you do? If not, cancel your account and move onto something that isn't going to leave you in a state of mental psychosis when you are done.

It's a GAME. A GAME! Get that into your heads and realize there are more important things to worry about.

Edited, Thu May 11 16:58:30 2006 by Lumis