The economic concept you are touching on is called Division of Labor. Corporations are just a collection of individuals. Nothing magical transpires in terms of what individuals do when a "corporation" is "formed" or given "legal entity". It's still the same old individuals trading the same old things to each other.
No one person can do everything at anywhere near the efficiency compared to specializing and trading your own surplus for the surplus of someone else. This is exactly what goes on in the real world and in Vana'diel. If you like cooking but don't like fishing, you'll buy somebody's elses excess fish on the AH and sell your excess finished cooked goods on the AH. Likewise for someone who likes fishing but doesn't like cooking will sell fish but buy finished cooked goods.
Prices are signals of relative scarcity. What's one of the least scarce things in the game? Gil! More gil is created, was at one time vastly created in the rusty cap fishing era, all the time. That's one of the primary reasons the amount of gil people are willing to trade for other items seems to have skyrocketed. It's because the circulating gil in the economy has skyrocketed.
Corporations *are* individuals. Corporations in Vana'diel (in the sense that some worker slaves would be shielded from supply/demand pricing structure to make it profitable for the owner) would be vastly inferior to the individual production we currently have. Or it would be exactly the same, except certain individual players who buy and sell from specific other certain individuals would be given an artificial name as a "corporation. Are you going to pay your farmers an hourly wage, pay them per bushel, give them health insurance (raises if they die :P), pay them the same, etc. etc.?
Corporations in the real world get monopoly patent and copyright protection. That increases the price consumers pay. Could you imagine how expensive goods would be in Vana'diel if the first crafters of specific syntheses were granted exclusive production of them? Prices would be much higher. Thus, in Vana'diel you cannot control any market. You cannot prevent new entrants when after driving them out through low prices you raise your prices.
Why would any farmer, or any crafter want to work for you? You would have to offer them something better then they could get on their own. You could buy in bulk. But buying in bulk does not remove supply and demand. You won't keep buying in bulk at the same price once the price of your finished goods start dropping or end up not selling and being returned to you unsold. Thus you would "fire" some of your employees, or "lay them off". But the exact same thing happens with no "corporations" through the price established by supply and demand. You cannot lock anyone out of the beeswax market like you can in the real world by using government monopoly force to prevent and deter new entrants into your market.
Many people in Vana'diel have a job, at least part time, that in the real world would be similar to xeroxing dollar bills. Both in the real world and in Vana'diel the legally declared money supply are not established by the free market. People don't bury dollar bills in the backyard. Why would anybody ever trade some food or some land for some green and white colored paper (and you had no interest in that paper for artistic or other purposes, such as starting a fire)? Only because the government says you must. People would rather buy more backyard, or a second backyard. People don't store gil; they convert it to some "real" money bullion sitting in a safe, like a pair of cross counters.
It's completely untrue that the rich get richer and poor stay poor. Everybody gets richer all the time. Every single month pretty much every character has better gear or more stuff than they did last month. That ain't staying poor. Look at what you have now compared to what you had 10 seconds after you created your character, and imagine what you will have a year from now. Pretty much everybody will be better off in the future than they are in the present. Only in the worst socialist envious sense would people prefer to be more equal yet all wearing starter gear.
So to conclude, your premis that a "corporation resource" is lacking and contributing to skyrocketing prices is if not fatally flawed, severely lacking in eludidating the matter at hand. Individuals freely choose how much of one thing, such as gil, they are willing to trade for another thing. Anything, *ABSOLUTELY ANY* deviation from that state of affairs, would *necessarily* by definition make the sum total of subjective value less than it otherwise would be. People only trade because they value what they receive more than what they give away in the exchange. If someone is not freely willing to trade one thing for another thing, forcing them to do so is necessarily making them worse off. Only individuals trade. Only individuals value. Only individuals set prices. Nonetheless, rate up for an original interesting read.
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- Economy thought....I know there has been plenty.
Economy thought....I know there has been plenty.Follow
Good ideas on everyone's part and I appreciate the responses.
Forgive me I am no law scholar or even college educated, like I said I am a blue collar guy with a high school diploma and some trade school so what I know about business is what I have taught myself or learned from my father and grandfather.
Which really isn't that great of a background to get into a business discussion because we still do it with a handshake and a promise.
So some of my points may be off, some may not but I figured if people are going to whine about the economy in game at least they could try to come up with solutions and that's what I did.
Anyways I'm glad we all came here and expressed ourselves in a calm un-flaming manner. Time to go home. See you guys tomorrow.
Edited, Wed Oct 12 16:19:36 2005 by ReignDrkKnight
Forgive me I am no law scholar or even college educated, like I said I am a blue collar guy with a high school diploma and some trade school so what I know about business is what I have taught myself or learned from my father and grandfather.
Which really isn't that great of a background to get into a business discussion because we still do it with a handshake and a promise.
So some of my points may be off, some may not but I figured if people are going to whine about the economy in game at least they could try to come up with solutions and that's what I did.
Anyways I'm glad we all came here and expressed ourselves in a calm un-flaming manner. Time to go home. See you guys tomorrow.
Edited, Wed Oct 12 16:19:36 2005 by ReignDrkKnight
Scholar
17 posts
Eh, my thoughts about the OP have already been said, but I believe there really is only one way to fix the massive inflation, and no one is going to like it:
Taxes
You can't stop people from creating massive amounts of gil through farming, crafting, etc, and you have no central bank like in RL to control the gil supply. So..you've gotta forcably take gil out of the economy somehow, and short of just setting gil amounts to zero, you'd need to take a percentage on a regular basis.
Every MMO ever made is going to experience inflation in their game economy, simply because people keep producing more and more income without limit and consume indefinitely. With no incentives or reason to save, the gil supply will never be driven down through player actions.
Either tax or cap the amount of gil you can carry at once. Which would mean you'd need a progressive system of increasing the money cap level by level, to discourage gil mules..Or whatever. Either way, the only way to fix inflation is for SE to step in and do something about it.
Taxes
You can't stop people from creating massive amounts of gil through farming, crafting, etc, and you have no central bank like in RL to control the gil supply. So..you've gotta forcably take gil out of the economy somehow, and short of just setting gil amounts to zero, you'd need to take a percentage on a regular basis.
Every MMO ever made is going to experience inflation in their game economy, simply because people keep producing more and more income without limit and consume indefinitely. With no incentives or reason to save, the gil supply will never be driven down through player actions.
Either tax or cap the amount of gil you can carry at once. Which would mean you'd need a progressive system of increasing the money cap level by level, to discourage gil mules..Or whatever. Either way, the only way to fix inflation is for SE to step in and do something about it.
Ayron, no no no!
Taxes is compulsion! It's using brute force to destroy the wealth of others. That makes society worse off. Why arbitrarily tax gil? Why not destroy Emperor's Hairpins too? Or crystals? The supply of Emps Hairpins has massively inflated too! Nobody is complaining that there are too many of these items are they?
The only reason there is a problem with too much gil is because gil is forced to be the money supply. You can't negotiate purchases with npcs in terms of non-gil items. That's the lesson to be learned and applied to the real world. Something which is basically worthless, because it can be easily created in infinite supply, is not something that people are going to value long-term. So why force them to?
Here's an excercise for you to comtemplate: What would happen if every single gil on every single server was eliminated?
The relative scarcity of of everything else which exists on the server would not change one iota. There will still be X Scorpion Harnesses existing and Y Vermillion Cloaks existing. With zero gil existing the price of a Scorpion Harness or a Vermillion Cloak will not suddenly be free, given away to everybody because there is no gil. The players will still freely, subjectively, assign relative value to everything which exists. That value, or price, will only be reflected when actual trades of one thing for another thing occur.
Regulating (which really means using violent force or the threat of violent force) the gil supply is as dumb as regulating the supply of anything else. Even if you were to say poison or fraud, how many people repeatedly fall for the insect wing as Emperor Hairpin trick? Yes, the real world regulators of the U.S. economy are dumb for exactly that reason. Nobody can tell anybody else what is money or what has value. Only the mutual agreement and trade of multiple parties can establish such. That's the free market.
Taxes is compulsion! It's using brute force to destroy the wealth of others. That makes society worse off. Why arbitrarily tax gil? Why not destroy Emperor's Hairpins too? Or crystals? The supply of Emps Hairpins has massively inflated too! Nobody is complaining that there are too many of these items are they?
The only reason there is a problem with too much gil is because gil is forced to be the money supply. You can't negotiate purchases with npcs in terms of non-gil items. That's the lesson to be learned and applied to the real world. Something which is basically worthless, because it can be easily created in infinite supply, is not something that people are going to value long-term. So why force them to?
Here's an excercise for you to comtemplate: What would happen if every single gil on every single server was eliminated?
The relative scarcity of of everything else which exists on the server would not change one iota. There will still be X Scorpion Harnesses existing and Y Vermillion Cloaks existing. With zero gil existing the price of a Scorpion Harness or a Vermillion Cloak will not suddenly be free, given away to everybody because there is no gil. The players will still freely, subjectively, assign relative value to everything which exists. That value, or price, will only be reflected when actual trades of one thing for another thing occur.
Regulating (which really means using violent force or the threat of violent force) the gil supply is as dumb as regulating the supply of anything else. Even if you were to say poison or fraud, how many people repeatedly fall for the insect wing as Emperor Hairpin trick? Yes, the real world regulators of the U.S. economy are dumb for exactly that reason. Nobody can tell anybody else what is money or what has value. Only the mutual agreement and trade of multiple parties can establish such. That's the free market.
Scholar
17 posts
To Monx:
I think you're forgeting the underlying reason as to why free markets work: Scarcity, of which FFXI never has to worry about. The only thing players have to worry about running out is time to gain money.
Yes, it's great that there are tons of emporer's hairpins and the like, but an economy such as this is dependant on a standardized monetary system, and that's gil. The way things are progressing, and as you propose, we'll be headed towards bartering, like in Diablo 2 where stones of jordan are the basis for trade instead of gold (btw, I've never played diablo 2 in any depth and I just know that's what happened).
People should be forced to use gil for the same reason why the real world uses standard currency: Because there's no inherent value in anything. Like you said, the value of something depends solely on what it's worth to another person. Because of this, there is no way to equate the value of one item to another, and things become messy and more complicated than they have to be when people sell and buy items. Why do you think monetary systems were created in the first place? Also, what would happen to the auction house, a place where items can be bought and sold easily, and where items are made readily available? Not having currency would create more problems then actually maintaining a monetary system, and the sytem you advocate would have us abandoning money in favor of sloppily equating relative value of items.
"Something which is basically worthless, because it can be easily created in infinite supply, is not something that people are going to value long-term" - Know what? EVERYTHING in an MMO can be created in an infinte supply, so technically everything has no real value, especially when there is no scale to measure against.
Anyways, any economy, anywhere in the world, whether or not it's real or virtual, relies on a monetary system, and there's no way around it. Having a scale to equate the value of goods and services is essential, and the only real way to regulate this scale and keep it maintained is by an over-arching entity. The U.S. government does this (and by the way, saying that U.S. policy makers are dumb for keeping a stable currency is plain idiocy in my opinion) and it's up to SE to do this as well.
I don't intend to sound mean, but it's the truth. Implying that batering is a better system than having a stable monetary unit is just naive.
I think you're forgeting the underlying reason as to why free markets work: Scarcity, of which FFXI never has to worry about. The only thing players have to worry about running out is time to gain money.
Yes, it's great that there are tons of emporer's hairpins and the like, but an economy such as this is dependant on a standardized monetary system, and that's gil. The way things are progressing, and as you propose, we'll be headed towards bartering, like in Diablo 2 where stones of jordan are the basis for trade instead of gold (btw, I've never played diablo 2 in any depth and I just know that's what happened).
People should be forced to use gil for the same reason why the real world uses standard currency: Because there's no inherent value in anything. Like you said, the value of something depends solely on what it's worth to another person. Because of this, there is no way to equate the value of one item to another, and things become messy and more complicated than they have to be when people sell and buy items. Why do you think monetary systems were created in the first place? Also, what would happen to the auction house, a place where items can be bought and sold easily, and where items are made readily available? Not having currency would create more problems then actually maintaining a monetary system, and the sytem you advocate would have us abandoning money in favor of sloppily equating relative value of items.
"Something which is basically worthless, because it can be easily created in infinite supply, is not something that people are going to value long-term" - Know what? EVERYTHING in an MMO can be created in an infinte supply, so technically everything has no real value, especially when there is no scale to measure against.
Anyways, any economy, anywhere in the world, whether or not it's real or virtual, relies on a monetary system, and there's no way around it. Having a scale to equate the value of goods and services is essential, and the only real way to regulate this scale and keep it maintained is by an over-arching entity. The U.S. government does this (and by the way, saying that U.S. policy makers are dumb for keeping a stable currency is plain idiocy in my opinion) and it's up to SE to do this as well.
I don't intend to sound mean, but it's the truth. Implying that batering is a better system than having a stable monetary unit is just naive.
You bring up some great questions Ayron.
First off FFXI does have scarcity. Everything is not equally infinite. Cross Counters do not drop as often as rabbit hides. That's why they are valued differently, that's why more gil is traded for a pair of cross counters than is traded for a rabbit hide, that's why more rabbit hides are traded for a pair of cross counters rather than the other way around. If scarcity did not exist, no trade would ever occur, no price would exist for anything as everything could simply be plucked from your moogle. Obviously, that is not the case, because scarcity does indeed exist in FFXI. It's why people trade things, it's why prices exist and differ.
You are correct that ffxi is dependent upon a standardized monetary system to an extent. You can't rent a chocobo any other way except by trading gil to the npc. But it was created that way. Human beings are more adaptive.
That's an awesome example you gave of Diablo 2. And similar things already have happened in ffxi. Most people think they are better off holding alt gear on mules rather than selling it on the AH, holding that gil, and then rebuying the gear later when they need it. Why is that? Because of rampant inflation. But if demand is stable, the supply of that alt gear which is stored on mules is increasing every day. So that gear is getting cheaper all the time because the supply of it is always increasing. But it only *appears* as if it's getting more expensive because the amount of gil that's constantly introuduced dwarfs the amount of other things that are introuduced.
You are making one big mistake. Yes, the current legal tender dollar denomination currency of the U.S. was a created monetary system. However, before that, a world-wide gold standard monetary system *EVOLVED* over hundreds and hundreds of years. Trading gold for goods was voluntary. Trading goods for dollars was forced (by threat of imprisonment by the officials of the U.S. if you refused to accept that paper within its territory). See a problem regarding long-term stability with that? If the U.S. government fails, or maybe even just weakens enough, it's monetary system fails. Gold doesn't fail. Gold doesn't care who holds power as it's value is voluntarily established by willing free trade. Thus, there is no over-arching entity which declares and establishes a monetary system. That is a false short-term illusion. The U.S. dollar is money in the exact same way that a gun pointed towards the head of another is money. That of course goes for every other government currency around the world.
The free market establishes what is money. It can be credit, oil, gold, whatever. It is however *only* established through voluntary mutual trade. Telling someone they must trade something for your paper against their will is not voluntary mutual trade and thus not money. It's as silly as if I pretended the monopoly money I bought from a Monopoly game box was real money. You got a problem selling me your stuff for some of my monopoly money? Damn right you would! It's the same thing with the U.S. dollar.
First off FFXI does have scarcity. Everything is not equally infinite. Cross Counters do not drop as often as rabbit hides. That's why they are valued differently, that's why more gil is traded for a pair of cross counters than is traded for a rabbit hide, that's why more rabbit hides are traded for a pair of cross counters rather than the other way around. If scarcity did not exist, no trade would ever occur, no price would exist for anything as everything could simply be plucked from your moogle. Obviously, that is not the case, because scarcity does indeed exist in FFXI. It's why people trade things, it's why prices exist and differ.
You are correct that ffxi is dependent upon a standardized monetary system to an extent. You can't rent a chocobo any other way except by trading gil to the npc. But it was created that way. Human beings are more adaptive.
That's an awesome example you gave of Diablo 2. And similar things already have happened in ffxi. Most people think they are better off holding alt gear on mules rather than selling it on the AH, holding that gil, and then rebuying the gear later when they need it. Why is that? Because of rampant inflation. But if demand is stable, the supply of that alt gear which is stored on mules is increasing every day. So that gear is getting cheaper all the time because the supply of it is always increasing. But it only *appears* as if it's getting more expensive because the amount of gil that's constantly introuduced dwarfs the amount of other things that are introuduced.
You are making one big mistake. Yes, the current legal tender dollar denomination currency of the U.S. was a created monetary system. However, before that, a world-wide gold standard monetary system *EVOLVED* over hundreds and hundreds of years. Trading gold for goods was voluntary. Trading goods for dollars was forced (by threat of imprisonment by the officials of the U.S. if you refused to accept that paper within its territory). See a problem regarding long-term stability with that? If the U.S. government fails, or maybe even just weakens enough, it's monetary system fails. Gold doesn't fail. Gold doesn't care who holds power as it's value is voluntarily established by willing free trade. Thus, there is no over-arching entity which declares and establishes a monetary system. That is a false short-term illusion. The U.S. dollar is money in the exact same way that a gun pointed towards the head of another is money. That of course goes for every other government currency around the world.
The free market establishes what is money. It can be credit, oil, gold, whatever. It is however *only* established through voluntary mutual trade. Telling someone they must trade something for your paper against their will is not voluntary mutual trade and thus not money. It's as silly as if I pretended the monopoly money I bought from a Monopoly game box was real money. You got a problem selling me your stuff for some of my monopoly money? Damn right you would! It's the same thing with the U.S. dollar.
I have often thought of creating such a corporation, but due to the shear amount of time and effort that it would require I haven't been able to do so.
A corporation like this would most likely be more massive and complex than any HNMLS. Just the management of such a corporation would have to be in charge of keeping track of massive amounts of information.
As I see it you would need 5 departments for the corporation to exist. Each of these departments would have to work with the other for the corporation as a whole to make a good profit.
Management. These peole would be in charge of keeping track of any and all information about the corporation. They would be in charge of payroll, recruitment, and discipline. If a crafter and certain farmers decide to make a side profit and exclude the corporation management would have to step in. Management would also be in charge of delegating which crafters craft what.
Say you have 3 lvl 100 Alchemists, who crafts what? It won't always be needed for them to all craft the same items. Most times it will be more beneficial for them to craft different items. Also, what if one crafter has one moghancment and another a different one. Depending on the synth it could be more beneficial for one to craft vs the other.
Market Research. These are the people who figure out what to sell and where. Will beeswax sell better at the Alchemy guild or in a bazaar in Crawler's Nest? Some of the answers are extremely simple, but others have very rarely been thought of by the masses. I know some people have started setting up bazaars in CN with various food and supplies and they are able to hike their prices due to convienence. Market Research would figure out exactly what products would be good to sell. They would also have to keep updated records of prices in each of the 4 cities as well as general bazaar prices.
Distribution (bazaar/AH-sellers/runners). These are the people who would sell the products. Some could be sold in bazaar, while others in AH. Items would need to be sold at wherever we could get the most profit/time. If we can sell 20 stacks of Prism Powder in Jeuno for 18k each or instead 5 stacks in Bastok for 20k each it makes the most sense to go for Jeuno. However, we may be in such a situation that we can sell in both places. We may find that we can also sell more by having a bazaar in Quicksand Caves or Valkurm Dunes. Most of where we sell will be part of Market Research's responsibility to figure out, however we will need people all over to sell the products.
Distribution could also deal with delivery. People may need a product, but be unable to run to the AH or bazaar because they are in a pt or in a secluded area. We can have people who deal with delivery of products. Run out of food or forget a spell or piece of equipment in Valkurm Dunes? Let us send a runner out to deliver it to you (with moderate fee, of course).
Crafters. These people would take most of the products that are farmed and turn them into much more profitable items. While crafters could do this alone, having others get them the supplies and sell the product takes much of the burden off of a crafter. Profits could increase dramatically just because no longer would a crafter have to research what exactly to make and where to sell it, but instead would have much of this done already.
Farmers. Farmers do exactly that. It's possible that one day we may need a certain product. Management will instruct farmers where to go and what to farm. Most times farmers already are used to doing a lot of farming. They can use their talents and bring in items for the corporation easily.
Arbitrage farmers. There's a good chance that besides normal farming we may want to have specific people who go out and find items that are selling less in one area to resell in another. Find a Kingdom Aketon for only 450k when you know you can push it for 600k in Jeuno? Arbitrage farmers would buy it and let distribution resell it for profit for the corporation.
Potential Problems with the Corporation
As I see it this corporation also has many potential problems in it. Who says who gets how much for their efforts? Should farmers get exactly what they would get if selling the items on AH? Should crafters get reimbursed for cost of lvl'ing said craft? Should management get a bonus 10% for doing most of the head-work?
Many of the problems with such a corporation will come from greed. Farmers will want more for their products. Crafters will want more for their time/effort/skill. Pretty much each area could have potentially drastic problems. Someone may decide not to report a drop, find, or success. What's to say that a crafter who happens to make a SH+1 doesn't just report a normal SH to the corporation take the profits from the +1 all for himself? What's to say that a farmer may only report 20 stacks of beehive chips when he actually farmed 25? In every department of the corporation there is a great chance of greed destroying the profits for the rest.
Ultimately I think such a corporation would take way too much trust, effort, and time than most people are willing to give. Greed would be the ulitmate downfall, like with any major venture.
That all being said. I'd still be interested in joining such a corporation.
A corporation like this would most likely be more massive and complex than any HNMLS. Just the management of such a corporation would have to be in charge of keeping track of massive amounts of information.
As I see it you would need 5 departments for the corporation to exist. Each of these departments would have to work with the other for the corporation as a whole to make a good profit.
Management. These peole would be in charge of keeping track of any and all information about the corporation. They would be in charge of payroll, recruitment, and discipline. If a crafter and certain farmers decide to make a side profit and exclude the corporation management would have to step in. Management would also be in charge of delegating which crafters craft what.
Say you have 3 lvl 100 Alchemists, who crafts what? It won't always be needed for them to all craft the same items. Most times it will be more beneficial for them to craft different items. Also, what if one crafter has one moghancment and another a different one. Depending on the synth it could be more beneficial for one to craft vs the other.
Market Research. These are the people who figure out what to sell and where. Will beeswax sell better at the Alchemy guild or in a bazaar in Crawler's Nest? Some of the answers are extremely simple, but others have very rarely been thought of by the masses. I know some people have started setting up bazaars in CN with various food and supplies and they are able to hike their prices due to convienence. Market Research would figure out exactly what products would be good to sell. They would also have to keep updated records of prices in each of the 4 cities as well as general bazaar prices.
Distribution (bazaar/AH-sellers/runners). These are the people who would sell the products. Some could be sold in bazaar, while others in AH. Items would need to be sold at wherever we could get the most profit/time. If we can sell 20 stacks of Prism Powder in Jeuno for 18k each or instead 5 stacks in Bastok for 20k each it makes the most sense to go for Jeuno. However, we may be in such a situation that we can sell in both places. We may find that we can also sell more by having a bazaar in Quicksand Caves or Valkurm Dunes. Most of where we sell will be part of Market Research's responsibility to figure out, however we will need people all over to sell the products.
Distribution could also deal with delivery. People may need a product, but be unable to run to the AH or bazaar because they are in a pt or in a secluded area. We can have people who deal with delivery of products. Run out of food or forget a spell or piece of equipment in Valkurm Dunes? Let us send a runner out to deliver it to you (with moderate fee, of course).
Crafters. These people would take most of the products that are farmed and turn them into much more profitable items. While crafters could do this alone, having others get them the supplies and sell the product takes much of the burden off of a crafter. Profits could increase dramatically just because no longer would a crafter have to research what exactly to make and where to sell it, but instead would have much of this done already.
Farmers. Farmers do exactly that. It's possible that one day we may need a certain product. Management will instruct farmers where to go and what to farm. Most times farmers already are used to doing a lot of farming. They can use their talents and bring in items for the corporation easily.
Arbitrage farmers. There's a good chance that besides normal farming we may want to have specific people who go out and find items that are selling less in one area to resell in another. Find a Kingdom Aketon for only 450k when you know you can push it for 600k in Jeuno? Arbitrage farmers would buy it and let distribution resell it for profit for the corporation.
Potential Problems with the Corporation
As I see it this corporation also has many potential problems in it. Who says who gets how much for their efforts? Should farmers get exactly what they would get if selling the items on AH? Should crafters get reimbursed for cost of lvl'ing said craft? Should management get a bonus 10% for doing most of the head-work?
Many of the problems with such a corporation will come from greed. Farmers will want more for their products. Crafters will want more for their time/effort/skill. Pretty much each area could have potentially drastic problems. Someone may decide not to report a drop, find, or success. What's to say that a crafter who happens to make a SH+1 doesn't just report a normal SH to the corporation take the profits from the +1 all for himself? What's to say that a farmer may only report 20 stacks of beehive chips when he actually farmed 25? In every department of the corporation there is a great chance of greed destroying the profits for the rest.
Ultimately I think such a corporation would take way too much trust, effort, and time than most people are willing to give. Greed would be the ulitmate downfall, like with any major venture.
That all being said. I'd still be interested in joining such a corporation.
Thank you all for your responses in light of reading them and others about this thread this is my last post on it. This was an answer to the post on my server forum so it is not directed to anyone here.
Thank you for all of your encouragement. After reading everyone's responses here and in the Main FFXI forum we have two choices that seem apparent to me.
1. Everyone quit there day jobs to spend 8-10hours a day working hard in game and not playing for fun and fianlly take control of our economy.
2. We accept that gil-sellers are an unecessary evil in our game, and shut the f&ck up.
The amount of man power it would take to combat this situation would push normal players like myself and others to abandon our lives to fix our game. This simply isn't going to happen. And this was one of my subtle points I wanted to make with this thread.
Everyone wants a solution for gil-sellers as long as it doen't interrupt their schedule, if it means that our keepers at SE will jump in like a savior from the heavens and fix everything they are all for it. If it means them working harder being more organized and sacrificing for the greater good of your fellow players, yeah not happening.
No one wants to say it but your average player is just as greedy as a gil-seller, myself not excluded. I mean if you could sell something you bought for 4 million and you only paid 1 for it, would you put it up for auction at the "old" price to help the next player in line? I seriously doubt it.
The major problem with my idea is it takes personal sacrifice to achieve a goal for all. And at some point even if this did take off someone no doubt would turn up asking why am I breaking my a$$ to make things cheap for other people? It's not something to be ashamed of either it is human nature.
There are solutions to the epidemic we have within our game. Will it be a "quick fix"? No. And this is where the problem begins everyone wants something done, but they want it done for them.
As much as I would love to come here and tell you last night over fruit loops and late night TV I figured it all out and were saved, I think we know that's not happening. At what point though do we conceed that our stupidly named friends run a pretty tight ship and there here untill there's no more customers.
Thanks again to all who responded it was a great discussion and handled with outstanding maturity. Was a pleasure typing at you guys take care.
Thank you for all of your encouragement. After reading everyone's responses here and in the Main FFXI forum we have two choices that seem apparent to me.
1. Everyone quit there day jobs to spend 8-10hours a day working hard in game and not playing for fun and fianlly take control of our economy.
2. We accept that gil-sellers are an unecessary evil in our game, and shut the f&ck up.
The amount of man power it would take to combat this situation would push normal players like myself and others to abandon our lives to fix our game. This simply isn't going to happen. And this was one of my subtle points I wanted to make with this thread.
Everyone wants a solution for gil-sellers as long as it doen't interrupt their schedule, if it means that our keepers at SE will jump in like a savior from the heavens and fix everything they are all for it. If it means them working harder being more organized and sacrificing for the greater good of your fellow players, yeah not happening.
No one wants to say it but your average player is just as greedy as a gil-seller, myself not excluded. I mean if you could sell something you bought for 4 million and you only paid 1 for it, would you put it up for auction at the "old" price to help the next player in line? I seriously doubt it.
The major problem with my idea is it takes personal sacrifice to achieve a goal for all. And at some point even if this did take off someone no doubt would turn up asking why am I breaking my a$$ to make things cheap for other people? It's not something to be ashamed of either it is human nature.
There are solutions to the epidemic we have within our game. Will it be a "quick fix"? No. And this is where the problem begins everyone wants something done, but they want it done for them.
As much as I would love to come here and tell you last night over fruit loops and late night TV I figured it all out and were saved, I think we know that's not happening. At what point though do we conceed that our stupidly named friends run a pretty tight ship and there here untill there's no more customers.
Thanks again to all who responded it was a great discussion and handled with outstanding maturity. Was a pleasure typing at you guys take care.
Ok, I hate to burst your bubble, but this wouldn't work. There is a little thing called supply and demand. If you produce an excessive ammount of just about anything in game, it's value will drop drastically. You would have to have your farmers going after many different things so your crafters didn't flood the market. This removes the efficiency of having the farmers stick to one target item.
Furthermore, in your 'corporation' everyone along the supply chain would wish to be compensated for their time. The farmers, the runners, the crafters, even the mules. In the end, your cost of goods sold would be higher than operating as an independednt entity, just buying your materials from farmers and synthing them for a profit.
Your theory is sound, but the application of it in this game is all wrong. The fact is, for all the people that play, a single server is a rather small community. Corporations only exist and flourish in high density, high population scenarios.
Furthermore, in your 'corporation' everyone along the supply chain would wish to be compensated for their time. The farmers, the runners, the crafters, even the mules. In the end, your cost of goods sold would be higher than operating as an independednt entity, just buying your materials from farmers and synthing them for a profit.
Your theory is sound, but the application of it in this game is all wrong. The fact is, for all the people that play, a single server is a rather small community. Corporations only exist and flourish in high density, high population scenarios.
37 posts
Corporations? {No, thanks.}
I'd not very much like the simple things I use to make small amounts of gil to suddenly become even lower in price due to market flooding.
I'd not very much like the simple things I use to make small amounts of gil to suddenly become even lower in price due to market flooding.
Edit: Nevermind. {I'm sorry...}
Edited, Thu Oct 13 11:59:25 2005 by baldgalkaguy
Edited, Thu Oct 13 11:59:25 2005 by baldgalkaguy
Anyone that would enter into an employment contract with an employer that exists only in an online game needs to reevaluate how they make decisions
Scholar
17 posts
OK, this is going to be a long post, but it ecompasses everything as to why inflation occurs in MMOs as well as why you HAVE to have a monetary system to make it work:
Everything in an MMO is infinite, until the devs decide to take a specific item out of the game.
Scarcity of resources would imply that there is a fixed number of items in the game, and once those run out, then poof, there are no more. Yet, anyone can go out and kill a monster and eventually, you'll get the item you are looking for. Prices don't differ because of the scarcity of items, they differ because of the time invested in obtaining those items. It's much harder to get an emporer's hairpin than it is to get a rabbit hide. THAT's why different prices exist and trade exists. Not everyone is willing to do what it takes to obtain the harder to get items, and that doesn't equate to scarcity. Like I said, the only scarcity in an MMO is time, and that exists outside the game (and by outside, I mean it's not a variable that can't be changed by the game itself, or the creators of the game).
There is a reason why the gold standard was abandoned IRL. I don't feel like writing it out because it's such a long spill, so here, let wikipedia do it for me: Go Wikipedia
Yes, if something can be infinitely created like paper money, then it becomes useless. That's why gil is becoming more and more useless..so why hasn't the dollar become useless to the U.S. economy? Because it's REGULATED BY A CENTRAL BANK, MAKING IT NO LONGER INFINITE. That's what FFXI lacks, and that's why there is massive inflation. This is why rampant inflation occurs in countries where the policy makers have the mindset, "oh, we're poor, so we'll print our way to prosperity by creating more and more money!" That's why a pair of shoes in post WW2 Germany went from 12 german marks to roughly 6 trillion.
But say we DID go to a batering system. Gil was removed and players traded what they thought their items were worth for other items they needed. What's going to become the medium of trade then? Will it be a lower level item? Hardly, since the majority of the population will be high level and want higher level items. How will lower levels players get the trade medium that is only available to higher level players (stones of jordan in the Diablo 2 example. Another point to notice, is that eventually stones of jordan will become worthless too. Why? because they are infinite!! no scarcity!!)? Hmm..they can't! That means that people of similar levels will have to trade items of similar levels. But wait, where do the armors you need when you're low level come from? Well, you buy what you need from the AH, since higher level crafters make them, or sell them from buying in other cities..
Oh wait, you can't buy them, and the higher level crafters are higher level, and thus want different items that you don't have..well, I guess I better work on my crafting skills so I can make my own armor. But wait, that means that everyone is going to be a crafter, which would flood the market with items, making them cheaper! Yay! Oh, wait, they're not techically cheaper since there's no monetary system, so what them becomes the new medium of trade? Something even harder to get...plus, there are some items that are hard for me to get at this level, so getting my crafting skill up to make my armor is going to take..well the time it could probably take me to advance many many many levels if I could just buy the armor in the first place. Wouldn't it have been a whole lot easier to buy armor that is no longer needed by a higher level player?
Even if there were items desired amongst every category of level to ensure that people would have something to trade with others their level, it still creates a contrived system where things are harder and harder to obtain; much harder than dealing with inflated currency.
See how utterly convoluted and awkward this is? How many people do you think would be turned of from the game by this? How would this affect the only scarcity in this game: time? You're left with a system that offers nothing but hinderances to the lower level community, and even to the higher level community, since they have to find what others want and give it to them to get their items, instead of just relying on a fixed scale to weigh against.
And the example with Monopoly money, you just shot your own argument in the foot. I got a problem giving you things in exchange for Monopoly money? Yup, so I'll sell it to someone else who has what I want, leaving you to scrounge around for anyone who thinks there's value in Monopoly money. Back to the only scarcity in an MMO: you just lost a ton of it picking through the masses to find buyers for your goods. It's like using the english system and the metric system, and system A, and system B, etc to infinity, all in one society. Hm yes, I see such an overwhelming potential for prosperity in such an ambiguous society....
Money was designed as a convenience, and properly monitored, provides THE best option for measuring worth of items. Unless you want a mess of an economy and society where the values of everything are unclear, then go ahead and live in on a barter system.
Why are you so against a governmental system? Would you prefer anarchy to stability? Let everyone do what they want, and you'll have utter chaos. Control is a good thing. OVER-BEARING control is a bad thing, and requiring a standardized monetary system is HARDLY over bearing. Oh no, an efficient, easy to use system of trade that streamlines market transactions is being forced on me. Whatever will I do =O
Edited, Thu Oct 13 16:17:52 2005 by Ayron
Edited, Thu Oct 13 16:21:44 2005 by Ayron
Edited, Thu Oct 13 16:38:04 2005 by Ayron
Everything in an MMO is infinite, until the devs decide to take a specific item out of the game.
Scarcity of resources would imply that there is a fixed number of items in the game, and once those run out, then poof, there are no more. Yet, anyone can go out and kill a monster and eventually, you'll get the item you are looking for. Prices don't differ because of the scarcity of items, they differ because of the time invested in obtaining those items. It's much harder to get an emporer's hairpin than it is to get a rabbit hide. THAT's why different prices exist and trade exists. Not everyone is willing to do what it takes to obtain the harder to get items, and that doesn't equate to scarcity. Like I said, the only scarcity in an MMO is time, and that exists outside the game (and by outside, I mean it's not a variable that can't be changed by the game itself, or the creators of the game).
There is a reason why the gold standard was abandoned IRL. I don't feel like writing it out because it's such a long spill, so here, let wikipedia do it for me: Go Wikipedia
Yes, if something can be infinitely created like paper money, then it becomes useless. That's why gil is becoming more and more useless..so why hasn't the dollar become useless to the U.S. economy? Because it's REGULATED BY A CENTRAL BANK, MAKING IT NO LONGER INFINITE. That's what FFXI lacks, and that's why there is massive inflation. This is why rampant inflation occurs in countries where the policy makers have the mindset, "oh, we're poor, so we'll print our way to prosperity by creating more and more money!" That's why a pair of shoes in post WW2 Germany went from 12 german marks to roughly 6 trillion.
But say we DID go to a batering system. Gil was removed and players traded what they thought their items were worth for other items they needed. What's going to become the medium of trade then? Will it be a lower level item? Hardly, since the majority of the population will be high level and want higher level items. How will lower levels players get the trade medium that is only available to higher level players (stones of jordan in the Diablo 2 example. Another point to notice, is that eventually stones of jordan will become worthless too. Why? because they are infinite!! no scarcity!!)? Hmm..they can't! That means that people of similar levels will have to trade items of similar levels. But wait, where do the armors you need when you're low level come from? Well, you buy what you need from the AH, since higher level crafters make them, or sell them from buying in other cities..
Oh wait, you can't buy them, and the higher level crafters are higher level, and thus want different items that you don't have..well, I guess I better work on my crafting skills so I can make my own armor. But wait, that means that everyone is going to be a crafter, which would flood the market with items, making them cheaper! Yay! Oh, wait, they're not techically cheaper since there's no monetary system, so what them becomes the new medium of trade? Something even harder to get...plus, there are some items that are hard for me to get at this level, so getting my crafting skill up to make my armor is going to take..well the time it could probably take me to advance many many many levels if I could just buy the armor in the first place. Wouldn't it have been a whole lot easier to buy armor that is no longer needed by a higher level player?
Even if there were items desired amongst every category of level to ensure that people would have something to trade with others their level, it still creates a contrived system where things are harder and harder to obtain; much harder than dealing with inflated currency.
See how utterly convoluted and awkward this is? How many people do you think would be turned of from the game by this? How would this affect the only scarcity in this game: time? You're left with a system that offers nothing but hinderances to the lower level community, and even to the higher level community, since they have to find what others want and give it to them to get their items, instead of just relying on a fixed scale to weigh against.
And the example with Monopoly money, you just shot your own argument in the foot. I got a problem giving you things in exchange for Monopoly money? Yup, so I'll sell it to someone else who has what I want, leaving you to scrounge around for anyone who thinks there's value in Monopoly money. Back to the only scarcity in an MMO: you just lost a ton of it picking through the masses to find buyers for your goods. It's like using the english system and the metric system, and system A, and system B, etc to infinity, all in one society. Hm yes, I see such an overwhelming potential for prosperity in such an ambiguous society....
Money was designed as a convenience, and properly monitored, provides THE best option for measuring worth of items. Unless you want a mess of an economy and society where the values of everything are unclear, then go ahead and live in on a barter system.
Why are you so against a governmental system? Would you prefer anarchy to stability? Let everyone do what they want, and you'll have utter chaos. Control is a good thing. OVER-BEARING control is a bad thing, and requiring a standardized monetary system is HARDLY over bearing. Oh no, an efficient, easy to use system of trade that streamlines market transactions is being forced on me. Whatever will I do =O
Edited, Thu Oct 13 16:17:52 2005 by Ayron
Edited, Thu Oct 13 16:21:44 2005 by Ayron
Edited, Thu Oct 13 16:38:04 2005 by Ayron
Scholar
17 posts
Well, I have been thinking about this topic alot. So much in fact that I have considered writing my undergraduate final paper for my BA in Economics on the very issue of Economies in MMORPGS. Basically this is the way I feel:
1. Ayron is correct in the fact that trade exists because there are different preferences for each person. Scarcity does not cause trade. If someone didnt like apples and only bananas, they would never trade for apples even if they ran out of bananas. They simply would not enter that market because it is not a good they wish to have.
2. The Scarce object people sacrifice is indeed time. People have an opportunity cost for every hour they play this game. If someone is bored and has nothing to do, they "pay" less to farm, level, etc. than if they were declining going to a party. This causes different people to gain or lose different amounts of consumer surplus when engaging in activities online. They then go and trade their RL CS for In-Game CS.
3. Inflation is inevitable in an MMO. There is no way around that. Heck the US has a tough enough time and we have many instruments and policies to control it. The only way to control prices in the long run is to control the money supply. If we create new items it might drop prices of old items, but thats is just moving the cost to new things.
4. Keeping a fixed amount of money in the economy won't work. People have different liquidity preferences. Some like to hold alot of cash and some like to hold none. At different points in time peoples preferences shift as well. There is a market for money just like there is a market for Meat Mithkabobs.
5. Enemies should not drop gil. This is creating money outside the limits of game designers. Nothing prevents someone from killing gobs 24/7 and making infinite amounts of gil. This ruins an economy.
I will continue my ideas based on responses and what I think up. I have a great job and do not wish to get canned because of this ^^.
Edited, Thu Oct 13 16:27:32 2005 by MacsimusFFXI
1. Ayron is correct in the fact that trade exists because there are different preferences for each person. Scarcity does not cause trade. If someone didnt like apples and only bananas, they would never trade for apples even if they ran out of bananas. They simply would not enter that market because it is not a good they wish to have.
2. The Scarce object people sacrifice is indeed time. People have an opportunity cost for every hour they play this game. If someone is bored and has nothing to do, they "pay" less to farm, level, etc. than if they were declining going to a party. This causes different people to gain or lose different amounts of consumer surplus when engaging in activities online. They then go and trade their RL CS for In-Game CS.
3. Inflation is inevitable in an MMO. There is no way around that. Heck the US has a tough enough time and we have many instruments and policies to control it. The only way to control prices in the long run is to control the money supply. If we create new items it might drop prices of old items, but thats is just moving the cost to new things.
4. Keeping a fixed amount of money in the economy won't work. People have different liquidity preferences. Some like to hold alot of cash and some like to hold none. At different points in time peoples preferences shift as well. There is a market for money just like there is a market for Meat Mithkabobs.
5. Enemies should not drop gil. This is creating money outside the limits of game designers. Nothing prevents someone from killing gobs 24/7 and making infinite amounts of gil. This ruins an economy.
I will continue my ideas based on responses and what I think up. I have a great job and do not wish to get canned because of this ^^.
Edited, Thu Oct 13 16:27:32 2005 by MacsimusFFXI
Scholar
17 posts
Sound and valid points all.
"The only way to control prices in the long run is to control the money supply" <--- Why FFXI will continue to have inflation until SE steps in.
When you create a game that aims to mimic reality, (but in an alternate universe in this case) and intend to add a realistic economy to it, you need to mimic real life, successful economies as well. That includes implementing government and policy, which has never appeared in an online game, and is why EVERY MMO to date faces the same problems.
"The only way to control prices in the long run is to control the money supply" <--- Why FFXI will continue to have inflation until SE steps in.
When you create a game that aims to mimic reality, (but in an alternate universe in this case) and intend to add a realistic economy to it, you need to mimic real life, successful economies as well. That includes implementing government and policy, which has never appeared in an online game, and is why EVERY MMO to date faces the same problems.
Admitedly mobs drop some gil, this injects extra money into the economy. However money also comes OUT again for traveling costs, AH listing prices, Linkshell Sales and NPC shops. I've come to wonder quite a bit about what "revenue" the Chocobo Renting generates. I imagen quite a bit, there are always people coming and going at Mea crag where Chocobo prices are around 1-2k. Theres also a large money sink when players delete an account.
The money dropped by Mobs is marginal at best anyway. On a normal farming run at 30-40, I make about 2k in hard cash, compared to 30-40k's worth of goods to sell on the AH.
At the bottom line, technicaly SE has the most scope to stop inflation, buy using NPC Shops and Quests to regulate prices. For example since the price of Erase increased, they have attempted to control it by increasing the number of BCNM's that drop it.
The money dropped by Mobs is marginal at best anyway. On a normal farming run at 30-40, I make about 2k in hard cash, compared to 30-40k's worth of goods to sell on the AH.
At the bottom line, technicaly SE has the most scope to stop inflation, buy using NPC Shops and Quests to regulate prices. For example since the price of Erase increased, they have attempted to control it by increasing the number of BCNM's that drop it.
Yes time is scarce too. But so are items. Take crystals. The price of fire crystals tends to be lower when there are 150 stacks up on the AH rather than 3 stacks up on the AH. I've never seen 1 million, let alone 1,000 stacks of fire crystals up on the AH. Fire crystals are not infinite. A specific amount of them exist at any time. At any time in the past, the present, or the future that amount never has been, never is, nor never will be, infinite. Therefore, fire crystals are scarce. Therefore everything which exists in ffxi is scarce. If everything in a mmo game was infinite we'd all have Kraken Clubs. We don't all have one because Kraken Clubs are scarce.
Now everything in an mmo *could* be very easily made to approach infinity. But it isn't. It will be infinite when you click on your moogle and can take off the AH whatever you want and the supply will always be 99999999..... That's not the case. Until that is the case, all items are scarce.
There's much more U.S. dollars floating around today then when the Central Bank first issued them. Have any idea how many more of them there are today then in say 1910? Also the U.S. dollar is becoming more useless to the economy every year. Ever get unsolicited credit card applications in the mail that say you are pre-approved for $xx,xxx? You can spend, which is technically speaking trading one thing for another thing, that credit without ever having seen a U.S. dollar in your life. The percentage of that type of trade, or transactions, every year, makes U.S. dollars less and less an important part of the monetary system as a percentage of the "money" supply. Hardly anyone forks over the cash amount to buy big ticket items like cars and houses.
The lesson is a promise *can* have just as much subjective value as a piece of gold or a loaf of bread. But it is *IMPOSSIBLE* to regulate what people VALUE. It subjectively exists. People choose what has value, what has more value, what has less value, and what doesn't have an value to them. Even threatening people with prison doesn't magically make drugs have no value to drug users. That's all you need to know to understand that forcing someone to accept paper currency as something of value is a futile proposition. That's why they print "Legal Tender" on it. Translated it means you *will* accept this as payment, or else. Or else what? Exactly.
The medium of trade is whatever is the most useful, most convenient, for the most people. You don't need to involve U.S. dollars to trade one baseball card for another baseball card, a kiss for a kiss back, a story for an ear, or anything for anything. You can but you don't have to. In the end it all comes down to what people want, and how much of what people want there is, and what they are voluntarily willing to trade. People don't trade one thing for another thing they value equally. They trade, they give up something they have, for something they value more! Both parties do that. Both parties are wealthier after having traded because of trade. That's why trade occurs, that's why society and civilization exist, and it's not brute force of all versus all, every waking second of every day.
Using money doesn't get rid of barter, it just make barter easier, a hell of a lot easier. But it is *NOT* a hell of a lot easier when money is something which can be easily manipulated and multiplied. Obviously, ffxi players are incredibly dissatisfied with gil as money. WWII Germans were pissed off at the loss in value of the mark. There are plenty of other examples to look at too. Argentina. Brazil. What guarantee is there that the same thing won't happen to the U.S.? There is none! That's why the U.S. dollar is **** poor money. It has much less expectation of holding value than many other things that could be used as money. What the hell does anyone need a regulated money supply for when they can have a better one that can't be regulated to hell and back like paper or gil?
That's what people want as money, something which holds value, something which is easily transported, and readily accepted. That something either already has that or it doesn't. Using force to make something appear as a similar inferior substitute lasts for as long as the force lasts. And using force to make one person trade something for another thing is theft. If they wanted to voluntarily trade one thing for another thing they would do so voluntarily with no force required.
If it's morally ok for the government of the U.S. to use such violent force then it's morally ok for any individual whatsoever to do likewise. We seek a *society* of peaceful cooperation or we seek a warfare of violent compusion. There's no in between. Robbing less money doesn't make theft anything else but theft. Just keep that in mind when you advocate "regulating by a central bank". It's absurd to think that a third party has a better idea of what has value to two other directly involved trading parties. Thus gil, and dollars continue to be valued less by freely choosing actors.
Of course SE screwed up the money supply. The rusty fishing cap bot whereby npcs converted rusty fishing caps which converted into padded caps with a light crystal into ~5k of gil for each cap is likely still the #1 reason why as much gil exists on the servers as it does. We would probably have been better of if no npc would ever buy anything whatsoever. It seems that the fact they do is almost universally involved in some ramptant inflation affect on pretty much every mmo. Make people drop it for 0 gil if they don't want it.
That's the difference. You are choosing because you yourself know better what's good for you than anyone else does. If a proposed trade will not make you better off, you won't do it. If it will make you better off you will freely do it. Regulating means thieving or taking advantage of people being suckers.
The government of the U.S. did not have something that someone else wanted, so they created the U.S. dollar and forced people to accept it as payment for what they took. And that's how the current monetary system we have came into existence. And if you think the common man is better off than he would be without the U.S. dollar just take a lot at how many new dollars were printed (floating in existence) each year for the last 100 years. The common man has been bamboozled and is worse off than he otherwise would be, is poorer, has less stuff of lower quality, because he was bamboozled and his purchasing power is continually syphoned away by regulators. Mount up!
Now everything in an mmo *could* be very easily made to approach infinity. But it isn't. It will be infinite when you click on your moogle and can take off the AH whatever you want and the supply will always be 99999999..... That's not the case. Until that is the case, all items are scarce.
There's much more U.S. dollars floating around today then when the Central Bank first issued them. Have any idea how many more of them there are today then in say 1910? Also the U.S. dollar is becoming more useless to the economy every year. Ever get unsolicited credit card applications in the mail that say you are pre-approved for $xx,xxx? You can spend, which is technically speaking trading one thing for another thing, that credit without ever having seen a U.S. dollar in your life. The percentage of that type of trade, or transactions, every year, makes U.S. dollars less and less an important part of the monetary system as a percentage of the "money" supply. Hardly anyone forks over the cash amount to buy big ticket items like cars and houses.
The lesson is a promise *can* have just as much subjective value as a piece of gold or a loaf of bread. But it is *IMPOSSIBLE* to regulate what people VALUE. It subjectively exists. People choose what has value, what has more value, what has less value, and what doesn't have an value to them. Even threatening people with prison doesn't magically make drugs have no value to drug users. That's all you need to know to understand that forcing someone to accept paper currency as something of value is a futile proposition. That's why they print "Legal Tender" on it. Translated it means you *will* accept this as payment, or else. Or else what? Exactly.
The medium of trade is whatever is the most useful, most convenient, for the most people. You don't need to involve U.S. dollars to trade one baseball card for another baseball card, a kiss for a kiss back, a story for an ear, or anything for anything. You can but you don't have to. In the end it all comes down to what people want, and how much of what people want there is, and what they are voluntarily willing to trade. People don't trade one thing for another thing they value equally. They trade, they give up something they have, for something they value more! Both parties do that. Both parties are wealthier after having traded because of trade. That's why trade occurs, that's why society and civilization exist, and it's not brute force of all versus all, every waking second of every day.
Using money doesn't get rid of barter, it just make barter easier, a hell of a lot easier. But it is *NOT* a hell of a lot easier when money is something which can be easily manipulated and multiplied. Obviously, ffxi players are incredibly dissatisfied with gil as money. WWII Germans were pissed off at the loss in value of the mark. There are plenty of other examples to look at too. Argentina. Brazil. What guarantee is there that the same thing won't happen to the U.S.? There is none! That's why the U.S. dollar is **** poor money. It has much less expectation of holding value than many other things that could be used as money. What the hell does anyone need a regulated money supply for when they can have a better one that can't be regulated to hell and back like paper or gil?
That's what people want as money, something which holds value, something which is easily transported, and readily accepted. That something either already has that or it doesn't. Using force to make something appear as a similar inferior substitute lasts for as long as the force lasts. And using force to make one person trade something for another thing is theft. If they wanted to voluntarily trade one thing for another thing they would do so voluntarily with no force required.
If it's morally ok for the government of the U.S. to use such violent force then it's morally ok for any individual whatsoever to do likewise. We seek a *society* of peaceful cooperation or we seek a warfare of violent compusion. There's no in between. Robbing less money doesn't make theft anything else but theft. Just keep that in mind when you advocate "regulating by a central bank". It's absurd to think that a third party has a better idea of what has value to two other directly involved trading parties. Thus gil, and dollars continue to be valued less by freely choosing actors.
Of course SE screwed up the money supply. The rusty fishing cap bot whereby npcs converted rusty fishing caps which converted into padded caps with a light crystal into ~5k of gil for each cap is likely still the #1 reason why as much gil exists on the servers as it does. We would probably have been better of if no npc would ever buy anything whatsoever. It seems that the fact they do is almost universally involved in some ramptant inflation affect on pretty much every mmo. Make people drop it for 0 gil if they don't want it.
Quote:
And the example with Monopoly money, you just shot your own argument in the foot. I got a problem giving you things in exchange for Monopoly money? Yup, so I'll sell it to someone else who has what I want, leaving you to scrounge around for anyone who thinks there's value in Monopoly money.
That's the difference. You are choosing because you yourself know better what's good for you than anyone else does. If a proposed trade will not make you better off, you won't do it. If it will make you better off you will freely do it. Regulating means thieving or taking advantage of people being suckers.
The government of the U.S. did not have something that someone else wanted, so they created the U.S. dollar and forced people to accept it as payment for what they took. And that's how the current monetary system we have came into existence. And if you think the common man is better off than he would be without the U.S. dollar just take a lot at how many new dollars were printed (floating in existence) each year for the last 100 years. The common man has been bamboozled and is worse off than he otherwise would be, is poorer, has less stuff of lower quality, because he was bamboozled and his purchasing power is continually syphoned away by regulators. Mount up!
Scholar
17 posts
Don't worry, after this, there won't be any more posts:
Tell me: How many fire crystals are there in the game? More specifically, how many fire crystals can be potentially collected? Care to quantify that for me? How many pieces of code are there on the server, representing fire crystals, that are deleted every time someone gathers one. I think the number comes close to something like..infinity, seeing as how items in an MMO don't work like this.. Hm, so, there's a potentially infinite supply of fire crystals. Tell me how that's scarce, other than through spending time to collect them, which I've thoroughly explained already?
Yes, wow, thanks for pointing out the obvious. There are more dollars in circulation than there were 100 years ago..Maybe that's because the economy has GROWN since then and required more money to change hands. Note the point Macs made about liquidity. Hm, let's continually change what it is people think have value, since, well, inherently value lies only in the eye of the beholder.
See, you agree too! So what can we find that provides a scale to try and measure value because well, it'd be confusing if no one had an idea of what something was worth if they have no idea how valuable the thing they want actually is. We need something like..money! Because, well:
Oh, so now you're advocating a medium instead of just trading random items that people hold valuable? Yes..that's the point of money. Congratulations, you're on the track to figuring out that money is a scale to measure what people think the value of their items are worth. Maybe a little bit further down the road and you'll finally see what I've been saying for the past few posts, that like everything, money has no value. It's only there to make transactions easier and exists solely as a scale. So what currency should we use?:
Alright, well let's use that medium, whatever it may be, that people think has value. It has to be convenient, useful, and lots of people can get their hands on it. Oh! I know! A STANDARD CURRENCY LIKE WE ALREADY HAVE.
Ok, so, through much arguing and debating over what is valuable and fits that descriptiong the most, let's use gold. People used gold before realizing there was an easier way to make a transaction, so gold must've been a useful medium. There's a finite amount of gold in all the world, so there'll only be so much to go around. Last time I checked, the human population was expanding, not contracting, so that means there will be less and less gold to go around every year..no, every day..no, every minute of the day. So gold becomes more and more and more scarce as the minutes go by, and the people that have gold become richer and richer while the people that don't are poorer and poorer. What's going to make someone with a lot of gold, who knows by now that the supply is only going to get smaller and smaller, give up their gold and get it into the hands of people who need it more than they? So, this guy is going to just start handing out gold, even though it's increasing exponentially in value as the seconds pass? So tell me, what is going to happen to a society where the majority live without gold that need it to buy food and shelter?
Welp, Bob here has lots of clothes, and he knows Frank across town has food, which he wants. SO, Bob has to gather up his clothes in hopes Frank will trade for it. It'd take to long to outline the process, but consider these questions: How will Bob get across town to Frank? Will he walk? How many hours will it take him to walk all the way there for food, when he needs to be home making clothes to trade other people? Will he drive? How will he get gas? Will the gas station take his clothes for gas? How does Bob even know Frank has food? Was it on the TV? How does Bob pay for his electrical bill? What if the electric company doesn't want clothes in exchange for electricity? Like you said, money makes batering a hell of a lot easier, but since you just HAVE to have something that has real value to it, all the money is being horded by those who could get to it first.
I think a society of violent compulsion describes nicely where they're headed. Oh yes, what's an example of this that the world has already experienced..Hm, oh yea, the Aztecs and Mayans! They had lots of gold, but they thought it was relatively worthless, because well, they thought other things were more valuable. When was the last time you saw countries invading other countries for their paper money? Probably never, since when a country invades another nowadays, it's over NATURAL resources like land and oil, which is scarce; it has a FINITE amount. Why isn't it for money? Because for the millionth time, money is worthless. What're they going to do with all that paper? Line their walls with it? precisely.
Yup, the dollar in this case would be less than gold, seeing as a medium is worthless by defenition. It's worthless in the same sense that people don't buy paintings for the actual paints the artist used, they buy it for entire painting. So is using a medium a good tradeoff for a society of violent compulsion? o____o
Probably the fact that the U.S., and other countries around the world, know how to regulate the use of money. Argentina, Brazil, Germany. Massive inflation caused in those countries came from poor decision making. And you know what? When they started restricting money supply, everything balanced out! Yea, sucks for the people that lived during those times of massive inflation, but who's to say similar problems with a barter system won't arise? I've already proven that problems could happen, and those problems sound a helluva lot worse than changing a few policies.
You've already admited that using a medium for trade makes things much much easier. Have you realized yet why using something worthless is essential? Have you realized that by using something finite, you create a hostile situation that needn't be there? Have you realized that if a trade medium is going to work, then EVERYONE in that society has to use it? Do you realize that to make that possible, there has to be a way to make sure everyone uses it? not, then I'm sorry, you're just blind to reality.
I don't think you're a liberal..no, that'd be putting it too lightly. I think the term anarchist suits you more fittingly. Yes, let everyone do whatever they want and we'll be much better off for it. I'm convinced of this after I read your last paragraph:
wow....just...wow, that is quite possibly the most ignorant thing I've ever read. Yea..America has no natural resources or industrial power that could be taken advantage of by any other nation..well crap, where did all those planes, tanks, guns, and machinery come from that we needed for WW2? If we had no capacity to do that, then how the hell DID we win WW2? Take a course in economics, history, and if they offer one, logic; or just read books about it. I don't have the time or the energy to write the textbook needed to explain why that, and your logic, is so far from the truth.
One thing's for sure, I'm glad I don't live in a country where you call the shots.
And on that note, I'm done. I'm tired of arguing with someone who consistently contradicts themselves and bases their theory on pure speculation and idealism. And if all of this is because you don't like the idea that you have to do something you don't want to do, then you need to wake up to reality. What you want to do is not always the best thing for everybody.
Have a nice day.
Edited, Fri Oct 14 15:18:24 2005 by Ayron
Edited, Fri Oct 14 15:46:05 2005 by Ayron
Edited, Fri Oct 14 16:01:40 2005 by Ayron
Tell me: How many fire crystals are there in the game? More specifically, how many fire crystals can be potentially collected? Care to quantify that for me? How many pieces of code are there on the server, representing fire crystals, that are deleted every time someone gathers one. I think the number comes close to something like..infinity, seeing as how items in an MMO don't work like this.. Hm, so, there's a potentially infinite supply of fire crystals. Tell me how that's scarce, other than through spending time to collect them, which I've thoroughly explained already?
Quote:
There's much more U.S. dollars floating around today then when the Central Bank first issued them.
Yes, wow, thanks for pointing out the obvious. There are more dollars in circulation than there were 100 years ago..Maybe that's because the economy has GROWN since then and required more money to change hands. Note the point Macs made about liquidity. Hm, let's continually change what it is people think have value, since, well, inherently value lies only in the eye of the beholder.
Quote:
But it is *IMPOSSIBLE* to regulate what people VALUE
See, you agree too! So what can we find that provides a scale to try and measure value because well, it'd be confusing if no one had an idea of what something was worth if they have no idea how valuable the thing they want actually is. We need something like..money! Because, well:
Quote:
Using money doesn't get rid of barter, it just make barter easier, a hell of a lot easier.
Oh, so now you're advocating a medium instead of just trading random items that people hold valuable? Yes..that's the point of money. Congratulations, you're on the track to figuring out that money is a scale to measure what people think the value of their items are worth. Maybe a little bit further down the road and you'll finally see what I've been saying for the past few posts, that like everything, money has no value. It's only there to make transactions easier and exists solely as a scale. So what currency should we use?:
Quote:
The medium of trade is whatever is the most useful, most convenient, for the most people
Alright, well let's use that medium, whatever it may be, that people think has value. It has to be convenient, useful, and lots of people can get their hands on it. Oh! I know! A STANDARD CURRENCY LIKE WE ALREADY HAVE.
Quote:
But it is *NOT* a hell of a lot easier when money is something which can be easily manipulated and multiplied
Ok, so, through much arguing and debating over what is valuable and fits that descriptiong the most, let's use gold. People used gold before realizing there was an easier way to make a transaction, so gold must've been a useful medium. There's a finite amount of gold in all the world, so there'll only be so much to go around. Last time I checked, the human population was expanding, not contracting, so that means there will be less and less gold to go around every year..no, every day..no, every minute of the day. So gold becomes more and more and more scarce as the minutes go by, and the people that have gold become richer and richer while the people that don't are poorer and poorer. What's going to make someone with a lot of gold, who knows by now that the supply is only going to get smaller and smaller, give up their gold and get it into the hands of people who need it more than they? So, this guy is going to just start handing out gold, even though it's increasing exponentially in value as the seconds pass? So tell me, what is going to happen to a society where the majority live without gold that need it to buy food and shelter?
Welp, Bob here has lots of clothes, and he knows Frank across town has food, which he wants. SO, Bob has to gather up his clothes in hopes Frank will trade for it. It'd take to long to outline the process, but consider these questions: How will Bob get across town to Frank? Will he walk? How many hours will it take him to walk all the way there for food, when he needs to be home making clothes to trade other people? Will he drive? How will he get gas? Will the gas station take his clothes for gas? How does Bob even know Frank has food? Was it on the TV? How does Bob pay for his electrical bill? What if the electric company doesn't want clothes in exchange for electricity? Like you said, money makes batering a hell of a lot easier, but since you just HAVE to have something that has real value to it, all the money is being horded by those who could get to it first.
Quote:
We seek a *society* of peaceful cooperation or we seek a warfare of violent compusion.
I think a society of violent compulsion describes nicely where they're headed. Oh yes, what's an example of this that the world has already experienced..Hm, oh yea, the Aztecs and Mayans! They had lots of gold, but they thought it was relatively worthless, because well, they thought other things were more valuable. When was the last time you saw countries invading other countries for their paper money? Probably never, since when a country invades another nowadays, it's over NATURAL resources like land and oil, which is scarce; it has a FINITE amount. Why isn't it for money? Because for the millionth time, money is worthless. What're they going to do with all that paper? Line their walls with it? precisely.
Quote:
Thus gil, and dollars continue to be valued less by freely choosing actors.
Yup, the dollar in this case would be less than gold, seeing as a medium is worthless by defenition. It's worthless in the same sense that people don't buy paintings for the actual paints the artist used, they buy it for entire painting. So is using a medium a good tradeoff for a society of violent compulsion? o____o
Quote:
There are plenty of other examples to look at too. Argentina. Brazil. What guarantee is there that the same thing won't happen to the U.S.?
Probably the fact that the U.S., and other countries around the world, know how to regulate the use of money. Argentina, Brazil, Germany. Massive inflation caused in those countries came from poor decision making. And you know what? When they started restricting money supply, everything balanced out! Yea, sucks for the people that lived during those times of massive inflation, but who's to say similar problems with a barter system won't arise? I've already proven that problems could happen, and those problems sound a helluva lot worse than changing a few policies.
You've already admited that using a medium for trade makes things much much easier. Have you realized yet why using something worthless is essential? Have you realized that by using something finite, you create a hostile situation that needn't be there? Have you realized that if a trade medium is going to work, then EVERYONE in that society has to use it? Do you realize that to make that possible, there has to be a way to make sure everyone uses it? not, then I'm sorry, you're just blind to reality.
I don't think you're a liberal..no, that'd be putting it too lightly. I think the term anarchist suits you more fittingly. Yes, let everyone do whatever they want and we'll be much better off for it. I'm convinced of this after I read your last paragraph:
Quote:
The government of the U.S. did not have something that someone else wanted, so they created the U.S. dollar and forced people to accept it as payment for what they took. And that's how the current monetary system we have came into existence. And if you think the common man is better off than he would be without the U.S. dollar just take a lot at how many new dollars were printed (floating in existence) each year for the last 100 years. The common man has been bamboozled and is worse off than he otherwise would be, is poorer, has less stuff of lower quality, because he was bamboozled and his purchasing power is continually syphoned away by regulators. Mount up!
wow....just...wow, that is quite possibly the most ignorant thing I've ever read. Yea..America has no natural resources or industrial power that could be taken advantage of by any other nation..well crap, where did all those planes, tanks, guns, and machinery come from that we needed for WW2? If we had no capacity to do that, then how the hell DID we win WW2? Take a course in economics, history, and if they offer one, logic; or just read books about it. I don't have the time or the energy to write the textbook needed to explain why that, and your logic, is so far from the truth.
One thing's for sure, I'm glad I don't live in a country where you call the shots.
And on that note, I'm done. I'm tired of arguing with someone who consistently contradicts themselves and bases their theory on pure speculation and idealism. And if all of this is because you don't like the idea that you have to do something you don't want to do, then you need to wake up to reality. What you want to do is not always the best thing for everybody.
Have a nice day.
Edited, Fri Oct 14 15:18:24 2005 by Ayron
Edited, Fri Oct 14 15:46:05 2005 by Ayron
Edited, Fri Oct 14 16:01:40 2005 by Ayron
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