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War/mnk not a tank?!Follow

#27 Apr 18 2005 at 10:51 PM Rating: Decent
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1,285 posts
chinaman wrote:
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Hell, a /MNK can freaking COUNTER the hits. You don't know how cool that is until you see it.


The first time you counter the mandys both punches is just awesome.


Wow. That's quite a stroke of luck to have counter fire off twice in a row like that. Can't say I EVER get those kinds of results, and I do quite a bit of "tanking". It still counts if you're just fighting TWTBW monsters in Yuhtunga to see how big of a Raging Fists you can pull off (a bit over 800 damage on one of those onions).

I like to tank, and always loudly volunteer for the role when levelling my subjob. I guess it comes from being completely unable to tank as a Monk. I should tie on some Paladin levels.
#28 Apr 18 2005 at 10:51 PM Rating: Decent
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432 posts
Ill give you my 2 gil, since i was in the same situation though for me it was in the getting to 37 run to sub war for my DRK

Pre 50 War/Mnk > War/nin
until those vikings come up your alley your not going to be hitting nearly hard enough or often enough to keep hate and without dual weild 2 you might as well grab that Great axe.

/Mnk offers more HP more Vit and very good hate tools, counter is pretty sweet when you can follow it up with the *thwak* of a giant axe. Boost is a mini voke and makes a huge difference in WS dmg. Dont believe me... ask a mnk, any good one knows to boost before firing.

Personally id still rather have a NIN or a PLD tanking, but knowing the WAR ill take that which can keep hate take hits and take a good chunk of the mobs HP down with him.
#29 Apr 18 2005 at 11:23 PM Rating: Decent
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170 posts
A lot of people with this mentality probably wouldn't have survived pre-ninja(Rise of Zilart patch I believe)

I can't help but laugh everytime I see someone act so narrow minded :-)
#30 Apr 18 2005 at 11:25 PM Rating: Decent
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2,801 posts
I think what most people don't understand is that War/x *can* be a tank class. I tanked as a War/Thf into the 40s but got tired of LFG for hour on end.

War/Thf, War/Mnk, War/Nin, War/Rng, all have their own pluses and minuses for tanking. However, they are all pretty viable.

I think the biggest problem with the War/Nin setup is that it takes an above average player to pull it off well. Anyone can tank as a Pld, but its a bit harder to tank as a War. People also have to realize that War/Nins may not be able to hold hate quite as well. *PLAY INTO THAT*. Stop spamming Cure III when a Cure II and Regen do the same thing. Stop using -ga spells and your best nukes. Stop spamming arrows. People have to understand that not all tanks tank the exact same way. It takes a while to learn.
#31 Apr 18 2005 at 11:28 PM Rating: Decent
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4,475 posts
xmasterpent wrote:
/nin is used to reduce the dmg the war takes so the whm does not get hate from curing.

I stopped seeing war/mnk at lv 34 I think, then by 40 all the war tanks subbed nin. My memory is a little foggy though, so I am not sure about the exact lvs.


Yea WAR/MNK dissappeared around 36 for me. Kinda miss those guys. They were there before any other tank. From dunes, to qufim to kazham. Sorry guys, but you're DD's now. I think you deserve the break from tanking honestly.
#32 Apr 18 2005 at 11:33 PM Rating: Good
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193 posts
Honestly, pre-40 I would rather have a war/mnk tanking for me. They are the king of hate - Provoke, boost, boost, provoke, dodge, counter + double attack, sturmwind.

If I could have I would have taken war/mnk all the way because I felt so damn powerful being able to keep hate from a whm 20 levels higher than me who had just cast Benediction.

War/mnks I /salute you. You are the few, the powerful, the masters of hate. Or perhaps it would be more apt to say ... I hate you.

#33 Apr 19 2005 at 12:01 AM Rating: Decent
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4,209 posts
WAR/MNK can damned well tank! I did it in practically EVERY party I was in till level 41, at that point I switched to PLD. Back when I leveled WAR/MNK, PLD's were *VERRY RARE*.
#34 Apr 19 2005 at 12:10 AM Rating: Good
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2,027 posts
IMO, until level 37, War/monk is -the- best tank. After that, its situational, in the same way war/nin, pld/war, and nin/war are... a lil more niche, but fully capable of getting way up there... Might be a little rough on the sides when you fight IT++ at level 52-55ish, but beyond that should be fine if the healers are good and your gears are top notch...

Also, I don't know, black curry is said to be variable effects, and I don't know what makes it vary... One hypothesis is job? If not and thats just ********* Black Curry on a war/monk tank would be sick... +6 vitality bonus, 26% defence, +4 dext, and stuff that many pages seem to miss, +5 acc and +5 evasion. Evasion isn't all that, but +5 acc is the same thing as a sniper ring, so you get a HUGE defence boost, and you still keep a very acceptable TP bonus. So worse come to worse, you can Shield Break at the very beggining of most fight.

And at that point...

Shield Break's def down
+
counter
+
double attack
+
Great axe
+
all the other nifty war stuff
=
mob is gonna die so freagin fast, you probably take less damage during a fight than a Paladin does @.@ And you get a better shot at being part of skillchains, which means an extra burst from the BLM, you get the idea...

I am a paladin, and my opinion is that a well played (thats rare ^^) war/monk can be about as good as me in many situations, and better in some.

Without the belt for +dual weild at 30, IMO, war/nin just is INSANELY overrated until Rampage. -unless- you do a dual tank setup. 2 war/nin is probably the best tank setups you can get, if limited a lil for skillchains.
#35 Apr 19 2005 at 12:35 AM Rating: Good
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1,458 posts
The main problem with WAR/NIN as a tank is that WAR have C in evasion, while NIN have A. So while it's the same number of shadows, they last a lot less time.

On the other hand Counter only kicks in when you get hit. Add those +Counter Earrings and you can mitigate more damage with Counter than you would with Utsusemi and get more damage into the bargain. Also you can use Aeriel Armour.
#36 Apr 19 2005 at 12:40 AM Rating: Decent
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235 posts
Here is an idea- STOP SUBBING /nin BEFORE LEVEL 24! The last few jobs I've taken through the dunes and qufim have been plagued with war/nin's who get absolutely nothing from their sub. Tonko in qufim? Sorry, but it isn't the sight aggro mobs you have to worry about. Dual wield I doesn't have any advantages beyond style, which is nullified by the sheer number of ninjas. Also, not all of these people were noobs- I've partied with a rank 10, level 20 war/nin in qufim. Regardless of the pros and cons of different war subs, /nin just because you don't understand how dual wield works is pathetic.
#37 Apr 19 2005 at 1:03 AM Rating: Default
Maybe i'm the only one who does cause no on mention this but i am War/nin because i'm a DD not because i'm a tank. if a party wants me to tank as War/nin i turn down the party because in my experience i do better at damage dealing. rampage is a nice little WS the damage can be Random at times but if hits every single time i can do about 500+ dmg to a IT mob food and buffed fully. if used my 2h i can do 900+ with it but i can probley do the most dmg just hitting the mob twice three or four times in each Attack. i can hit the mob depending on the mob for 25-50+ dmg each hit crabs are a hard shell to crack so i maybe only do 25 dmg but thats 50 dmg for each some times 75 or 100 if get lucky. my gear is Accu. increase and such Dual viking axe's 2 deft rings life belt royal knight collar Combat casters boomerange +1. my perfect party set up would be Smn/whm Nin/war War/nin(me) Rng/nin Blm/Whm Brd/whm because i get the bards Accu and Attk bonus plus the Smn would cast the Evasion and Accu boost which make me even stronger.. hmm.. i'm going on to long sorry.. any way does no one consider War/nin a DD?
#38 Apr 19 2005 at 1:06 AM Rating: Good
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2,027 posts
Quote:
any way does no one consider War/nin a DD?


Not in a discussion comparing war/monk and war/nin. To have any kind of logic, you need to compare apple with apple. In this case, war/monk, while being fairly DD capable, is a tank combo, not a DD combo. Thus you have to compare it to the tank side of war/nin to end up with a list of pro and con...

Comparing war/monk as a tank with war/nin as a DD is like comparing RNG to BRD. Which is better?
#39 Apr 19 2005 at 1:09 AM Rating: Default
I was off subject i was not comparing a DD to tank i just wanted to ask if any one thought War/nin as a Damage Dealer sorry..

Edit: I cant explain..

Edited, Tue Apr 19 02:09:50 2005 by LordCecil
#40 Apr 19 2005 at 1:45 AM Rating: Decent
IMHO i think War/mnk and War/nin make decent tank at best. Sure fighting against mandies in jungle you can have pretty much anyjob which will work decently including War/whm, Anyjob/war.

But when IT mobs starts doing real heavy damage then War/mnk or War/nin just won't cut it for good exp.

War/mnk doesn't counter nearly enough and lacks defence compared with a Paladin tank. War/nin with 1/2 the utsusemi skill and no Utsusemi: Ni will find 3 blinks gone by real fast and taking heavy damage.

up to 30 War/whatever or Whatever/war will be fine but past that Paladin or Ninja is your best bet.

I'm sure with great efforts War/mnk can tank at higher lvls but with great difficulty. I've had War/mnk and War/nin tanks post 40 and 50 and later past 60 and they just can't tank nearly as good as Pld or Ninja. Too much damage taken, too much downtime, poor exp.

On the other hand, War/thf, and War/nin have been excellend DD, back up tank and SATA partner.
#41 Apr 19 2005 at 1:49 AM Rating: Decent
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Actually, WAR/NIN's keep horrible hate. A simple Cure II still well into the fight can ***** everything up and get the healer hate, you have to make sure to plan things very carefully when healing a WAR/NIN.


Wow you must have ptied with bad War/Nin's or you must be talking for early levels. Hate isn't a problem at all for War/Nin's post 50. Top DoT, Rampage, Warcry, ADD a lot of hate. Last night as a trick buddy, I was tanking the half of the fight till the Thf and the Nin gain TP for SC, with just one voking at the start of the fight. No way you 're stealing hate with a Cure2.

Quote:
Ooops. >.>" I leveled war from 25-36 on nin sub. Sorry main Warriors XD. And believe me, keeping hate is very tuff as war/nin


26-36>> The /Nin sj offers nothing to a Warrior.
Level War/Nin after 55 and come post again.

Quote:
Here is an idea- STOP SUBBING /nin BEFORE LEVEL 24!


True, and I would even say dont do it till 50.
Before that, War/Thf as a DD, and War/Mnk as a tank.
#42 Apr 19 2005 at 2:08 AM Rating: Decent
I agree, when I play my Warrior, I prefer tanking and going WAR/MONK all the way. You'd basically have to get a static if you want to be a tanking war/mnk now days though, because people just simply don't understand. Another thing I've noticed, is that although war/nin isn't going to shine until 50+, people are going war/nin as early on as level ten in the dunes.

I'm dead serious, I've seen 15war/7nin in the dunes, among untold numbers of others like him in the Dunes, Qufim, and Jungles. When I was taking my WAR/MNK to 30, I encountered many a WAR/NIN that would A) Get the invite before me B) Insist they were naturally better than me for being /NIN and C) Think they can outdamage me and hold hate better.

A and B were of course dead wrong, and I don't even want to get into how bad I made them look on C.
#43 Apr 19 2005 at 2:17 AM Rating: Decent
People are morons.

War/nin is not a viable tank or job combo in general until lv.55 and even then, tanking is iffy at best. Until 55 when you can equip viking axes, NOTHING is worth giving up sturmwind for. Have you ninja fanatics even SEEN sturmwind in action? I had a party in Yhoator that got a wasp link on a gob's pet bee. WHM 2hred and died for it shortly after the gob died. Well, I went NUTS on the bug with sturm wind and atk skills and I annihalated it. Everyone was in awe.

Guess what? I was war/mnk. I have not raised ninja and do not plan to.

Utsusemi is gimped when subbed so it's not near as effective for blink tanking. Especially since war/nin will get interrupted a lot because war's evasion is pretty sucky.

Now monk sub gives you nice things like...

More HP: can't go wrong there

More Vit: Also good for tanking. Nin sub sure doesn't give that

Boost: I combine this with sturmwind for great damage and hate. Not to mention boost in itself causes a nice hate spike.

dodge: This is quite potent. Excellent tanking tool

Counter attack: Avoid taking damage and get an extra hit in. ALso great for tanking.

Nin only gives you a half powered utsusemi for tanking and duel wielding which isn't very good until you can use viking axes and have duel wield II.

Paladins tank by focusing on defense and healing.

Ninjas tank by avoiding taking damage in the first place

Warriors tank by a combination of defense and holding hate with damage. They can lean either way and thus act as tanks or damage dealers. They are NOT blink tanks. You wanna blink tank, play ninja main.
#44 Apr 19 2005 at 2:17 AM Rating: Default
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I'm dead serious, I've seen 15war/7nin in the dunes, among untold numbers of others like him in the Dunes, Qufim, and Jungles. When I was taking my WAR/MNK to 30, I encountered many a WAR/NIN that would A) Get the invite before me B) Insist they were naturally better than me for being /NIN and C) Think they can outdamage me and hold hate better.

A and B were of course dead wrong, and I don't even want to get into how bad I made them look on C.


Hmmm i'm pretty sure with dual axe's i can deal more dmg but any way why cant a War/nin have a Great axe >.>

Edited, Tue Apr 19 03:21:22 2005 by LordCecil
#45 Apr 19 2005 at 2:24 AM Rating: Decent
30 WAR 18 WHM
20 THF 15 MNK
13 BLM 12 RDM
23 BST 9 RNG
8 BRD

I've played WAR/MNK to 30, Taken my BST/WHM to 23, and currently I've taken up Thief as my main and my LS is starting a level 20 static.

I should probably adjust my signature back to how it used to be, showing all it does now, as well as my collective job levels.

I think I ended up as our LS static's Thief more out of convenience than anything since it was already 20, and someone else filled the WHM position I kind of would've liked to fill, since I need 37WHM for a fully levelled BST sub. All in all though, I love everything a Thief is capable of farming/chest picking/steal&mug/flee/nm camping, and of course the bad *** SATA. I'm eager to get more into this job. Fortunately in taking up Thief, I have Kakusaijin 55THF, Laktor 55THF, and Jetsoda 61THF, as mentors within my LS. Things are looking good, and could only get better!



Edited, Tue Apr 19 03:28:29 2005 by Cerivyn
#46 Apr 19 2005 at 2:25 AM Rating: Decent
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549 posts
Personally I always liked using my war/nin with GA and DD gear, too many people do war/nin and go all out evasion which doesnt help much at all.

I've pulled off a WAR, RDM , BLM, RNG, RNG, SAM with ninja sub, I could usually go with the first 5-6 hits getting absorbed (casting utsusemi after my second shadow gets taken), while WAR/MNK I always thought needed more of a WHM in the party.

As usual its more situational than anything else: If theres not alot of DDs go /mnk for more damage/tanking ability, if theres no healers sub /nin to help with the mp conservation (because even taking off 6 hits a fight that would do 70 dmg a hit, ends up being a fair amount of mp saved)
#47 Apr 19 2005 at 2:33 AM Rating: Decent
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Hmmm i'm pretty sure with dual axe's i can deal more dmg but any way why cant a War/nin have a Great axe >.>


Regularily do a 200+ damage WS at lv.30, then come see me. :p

I broke the 300 mark when I used mighty strikes on that wasp that linked.
#48 Apr 19 2005 at 3:27 AM Rating: Decent
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Until 55 when you can equip viking axes, NOTHING is worth giving up sturmwind for


You can equip Viking Axes at 48. Rampage is at 55.

#49 Apr 19 2005 at 3:50 AM Rating: Good
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8,779 posts
war/nin is THE tank from 24-75*

*under the condition that you have another war/nin to level with an additional 4 people who know how to work around the limitations of a war/nin, plus the necessary gear to make a war/nin work to its highest possible potential at that time, which is, admittedly, still under that of war/mnk or war/thf for tanking/DDing purposes respectively.

seriously tho, if you get a group of competent folks together, war/nin can work from 24 onwards. it can WORK. whether or not its truly best really is a matter of opinion, and my opinion is that you can sub something better pre-48. the only time war/nin outclasses war/thf or war/mnk pre-48 is in the role of trick partner. no class trick partners as well as a war/nin, being able to dodge a guaranteed 6 hits with utsusemi, plus providing strong backup tanking power and strong DDing power. a nin/war/thf combo is a perfect situation, allowing for a minimal amount of damage to be taken, while providing ample hate control with the SA/TA of the thf and the backup provided by a warrior who is free to let the berserk flow.

but thats an isolated scenario, and hardly not a reason to hold war/nin above war/mnk as a tank.

i firmly believe that, from, 1-50, war/mnk is a superior tank to war/nin in the vast majority of situations. for your average warrior, who enjoys kicking *** and taking names (while, as a happy side effect, also tanking), nothing is quite as solid as war/mnk. a plethora of wonderful hate-holding JA, loads of extra vit, a nice str and dex boost.../mnk brings it all.

but, for whatever reason, theres this....aura....about war/nin that has a lot of people fooled. war/nin is godly at 74, and friggin strong starting at 55. its a respectable DD in its own right as soon as 48 rolls around, giving your average war/nin a full time +30 acc bonus. aggressor can tack on another 20 to that number, and with dual wield 2 at 50, and AF boots at 52 enhancing double attack, war/nin can quickly become a TP machine, and this machine becomes very deadly once rampage is learned.

yet, despite the fact that i, and pretty much every other warrior i know, try to encourage war/mnk and war/thf use pre-50, *SO* many people fall in love with the dual wielding that they just cant help themselves. a number of my friends who had hardly touched war could be seen leveling it, as a war/nin, starting at 20, just because the two axes thing was that cool. it only gets worse when they hit 25, because now they become addicted to getting a tri- or (god forbid) quad-attack. its like a gambling addiction, and every time 3+ hits land on the monster, some neural pathway is stimulated that makes these people giggle in glee.

but really, its just a game....i mean, when you get right down to it, war/nin may not be as good a tank as war/mnk in those levels, but at least a war/nin at 24 isnt a war/whm. in other words, it could be FAR worse.

the hype still gets me tho. warrior, as a job, used to be shat on quite a lot, and for no reason other than way too many people had read that damn brady guide and actually believed its incessant drivel. ignorance was the main criminal here, ignorance and misinformation. and over the months, people worked to rectify this situation, and eventually the reputation of warrior as a job was raised to the level its at now. and somewhere along the line, old faithful was forgotten....back in the day, it was expected that a warrior would sub mnk once they hit 18. it was THE sub. great for tanking, and the best DD sub you could get for those w/o any but the initial 6 jobs available. but that all fell away, and people now use the ironic excuse of wanting to be "different" when they say they refuse to level as a war/mnk, and instead go for war/nin. go figure.

regardless, from one berserker to another, keep it up war/mnks. youre good and you know it; one day, everyone else will learn. just keep splitting skulls and makin stuff your b*tch. oh, and carry a parser with you wherever you go....its nice to be able to prove you did damage almost on par with the blm and rng while at the same time tanking well enough to last for a number of chain 5's.
#50 Apr 19 2005 at 3:53 AM Rating: Good
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259 posts
Hello, i am a 67rdm.

When i was level 53 or so in boyahda, i had a level 54 WAR/MNK in my pt

not as a tank, but just as a DD.

we were fighting spiders and i must say... insane.

after using aggressor, focus, berserk, boost he hit for insane amounts of damage, EASILY ripping hate off the PLD.

But when it came time for the PLD to leave, he took over as tank,

Popped a fish kabob and started tanking and taking hits only slightly

more than the PLD... while still having great accuracy and amazing damage output.

after that i gained complete respect for the WAR/MNK...

I beleve WAR is a job for the situation... if you're gonna fight low def mobs, bust out the /nin, high def mobs, /mnk or /thf.

as a tank, i'd prefer war/mnk below 50 simple because wars have **** for evasion and it's so damn hard to reast utsusemi in mid-fight.
#51 Apr 19 2005 at 4:05 AM Rating: Decent
Shahar you liar, I've invited you to all my parties since I've met you.... errr yesterday, and nobody holds hate off this nuke happy blm unless I want them to.:)

Go war/mnk

I miss when the ONLY tank was war/mnk

Yeah, those were the days, utsusemi is far from the end all be all ability in the game.
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