On the subject of in-game same-sex marriage....Follow

I know this has been talked about before and I know it has always turned into a huge argument. But I was doing some thinking today after reading a same-sex marriage thread on GameFAQs, and I think I've managed to finally put into words my feelings on the subject. Forewarning, I'm a gay 25 year-old and I tend to be pretty outspoken in my beliefs, so if you're likely to be offended by this thread then please don't continue reading any further. I DON'T want to offend anyone, but I think I really need to get this off my chest. And everyone else, please allow me to apologise for indulging myself on this issue but I really wanted some mature people to read what I have to say. And GameFAQs being what it is, I figured I'd best post it here so that you guys (who're much more mature and intelligent on the whole) could read it and share your thoughts. Regardless whether you agree with me or not, don't hesitate to speak up. The point of debate is not for everyone to agree but for everyone to be able to see the opposite point of view and hopefully gain better understanding of the issue.

Really, on the subject of marriage in the game, I feel that S-E messed up. If they'd just added marriage of all kinds and allowed any character to marry any other character, the homophobes and the anti-gay camp would've just chalked it up to S-E being too lazy to differentiate between genders for the purpose of marriage and nobody would've made much of an issue of it. But now, they've pissed off a number of people and if they do anything to make that group happy they'll just **** off a different group entirely. If they leave same-sex marriage out of the game, many people will feel affronted. If they add it to the game, others will be offended.

As for whether or not people are making too much out of it (because I know a common argument is "Why do you care? It's only a game!"), look at it this way... Try very hard for a moment to put yourself in the shoes of a lesbian or gay man. Everywhere we look, there are images of things we simply can't identify with. In almost every movie, every TV show, every book or magazine story or song or advertisement, there are images of men and women in love. Holding hands, kissing, having sex, flirting, dating, going out together, getting married, having kids, building a life. Now, how many images can you think of in popular media that involve serious homosexual content? There's the quirky, goody-two-shoes TV-fluffy lesbianism-obsessed Ellen. There's the chronically disfunctional, neurotic characters of Will & Grace. There's the self-obsessed, narcissistic, nightclub-hopping, drug-abusing, hypersexed gay men of ***** as Folk. There's the effiminate stereotyped gay men and the trashy glam-girl drag queens of The Birdcage and Priscilla, Queen of the Desert and To Wong Fu: Thanks for Everything, Julie Newmar. And that's it. What amongst that can I identify with? In what of those characters can I see something of myself? Where is MY sense of belonging and acceptance? Everyone needs to see a reflection of themselves in others. It's part of our self-validation and a large part of our sense of self-esteem. We NEED to see others like ourselves so that we know we're not alone in the world, so that we know we're not outcasts or freaks or unwanted by society. Why do you think people campaign so hard to get a gay character onto a Star Trek show? Star Trek is supposed to be representative of mankind, it's supposed to be a multicultural show that represents the harmony and peace and acceptance mankind will achieve in the future. But where are all the gay people?

When you consider all the gender- and sexuality- and relationship-approval that heterosexuals get every day, it's totally unfair. It's not unnatural for us to want to be able to identify with our characters the same way straight people could. And when you're constantly, day after day, told "No!" by society, you just want somewhere along the line to say "Sure!" Ultimately, if they'd only allowed same-gender marriage in FFXI, we wouldn't feel so excluded and it wouldn't even be an issue. Unfortunately now it's too late. But please, don't trivialise this. It's not so much that we can't get married in the game, it's that once again we're being deliberately excluded to appease the ultra-conservatives and the hyper-religious and the homophobes. And when people exclude us just to avoid stepping on THEIR toes day after day, it starts to hurt after a while. Just once, I'd like to see a big company say "***** the homophobes and the Bible-thumpers, discrimination in any form is wrong!" Just once, I'd like someone out there to show me that they know I exist and to include me by representing me. I want to see a popular mainstream book with gay characters that don't fit any sort of stereotype and in which being gay is only a part of their character. I want to see a movie in which two girls kiss, and not for shock value or to appeal to the straight male sexuality but because they love each other. I want to see an advertisement where two men are holding hands or on a date and it has NOTHING to do with the product the ad is trying to sell. And I want to see a MMORPG in which my male taru bard can marry a male hume white mage. It's my character and it's my story, but I'm not allowed to tell the story I want to tell. And once again as in so many things, we're left out so that the anti-gays aren't "offended".



LOCKED by Request - Haggan

Edited, Wed Aug 11 00:26:01 2004 by Haggan

Who Cares.
Play The Game.
Nobody requires you to get married. You get nothing out of it. Play. The. Game.

One suggested workaround would be to use your Bazaar comments area to declare your outlaw marriage. ^__^ You know, declare who you're married to...maybe something like "this union was sanctioned by the bamboo sect of the Tenshodo". You know, something cool like that.

Those are very good points Lady. It's a very two-sided argument. On the one hand, they're not discriminating against PEOPLE, but rather setting limits on what fictional characters can do. But on the other hand, it's yet another stamp of approval for the "Straights can marry, gays can't" thing. Even if this IS just a game, is it really necessary to reflect the bias and bigotry and homophobia in the real world, in-game? The argument runs both ways: "If they're only fictional characters, what's the big deal about wanting them to be able to marry?" can be countered with "If they're only fictional characters, what's the big deal about denying them the ability to marry?"

These are virtual characters in their fantasy world, they aren't discriminating against anyone. This argument is stupid...

I don't understand why people are afraid of allowing gay marriages.
Young men are dying everyday for some ******** politician named George Bush who's never even been in a scrap, I bet.
Wake the hell up and see the real evil in this world ********

I want to marry my cat in rl so i can get him on my insurance and file as head of household.

right now we just have a civil union. I fill the food and water bowls and he stops by and sits on my book or keyboard when he has time between naps.

Alright here's the way I see it. The purpose of this game is to play as a character and play or act however you wish. This should create an atmoshpere with no limitations, allowing you to play as you wish and making your character like an alter-ego of sorts. As stated in previous posts, there are quite a few male gamers that choose to play as female characters. Obviously SE knew that this would happen and didn't have a problem with it. So if the lines of gender have already been blurred, why then is SE so worried about insuring marriage happens between opposite sex characters only? Not to mention marriage has no added benefit in the game, it's not like the married couples in game have an advantage over everyone else. So then what is the big deal if two characters of the same sex get married. Very few people on the server would even know, hell the same is true with the marriages going on now. I'm running on the assumption that people get married in game because it's just something they would like to do to enhance their playing experience--just like doing the Summerfest quests for rare items that really don't do a whole hell of a lot.

So then the big question I have is what's the big deal? If I happen to see to male characters married while I'm doing whatever in game, it's not really affecting me at all. SE really dropped the ball on this one. In a game that was supposed to allow you to role play without limits, SE slapped some them on for really no good reason. So for anyone freaked out by the whole same sex marriage thing in game, just seriously think about it, are you really gonna notice?

To the OP regarding poor representation of gays on TV and whatnot- it's capitalism, baby! My fuzzy math indicates that about 1/10 of us are gay, and catering to the other 9/10 = more dollars! TV is not a public service and it doesn't care how alone you feel. Until we start paying taxes for the programming or you learn how to procreate, you're SOL.

"But where are all the gay people?"

If I walk down a city street, there may be gay people around, but I don't know because all I see is PEOPLE. I don't see gay or hetero and (for the most part) nobody is carrying signs or labeling themselves! Someone who approaches me and tells me their sexuality as if that is the only part of their identity gets a big o.O. I don't have a problem with homosexuality, I have a problem with those who are "gay first, people second."

"It's my character and it's my story, but I'm not allowed to tell the story I want to tell. And once again as in so many things, we're left out so that the anti-gays aren't "offended"."

It's not your character! It's not your story! When you made your character, put him in the town, you didn't plan the beginning cutscene and you didn't contribute to the story. The NPCs say the same things to everyone, your character is a product of the world SE created.

Something this thread made me curious about:
How are gay marriages viewed to other cultures? The US has made such a huge issue about this lately that I haven't heard one thing about other countries or cultures in a long time. (Not trying to make excuses for SE's choice, but...) did they choose it because they had other cultures to consider?

Its not like the game is promoting family values, so I'm not sure personally why they chose to limit marriage to opposite genders (I'm a female, I have a galka, ha!). I mean, do we want kids running around stabbing bunnies with daggers? I think not! I actually think they shouldn't have added weddings in the first place.

Seriously, if you don't like what he's talking about tell him why you're rating him down, anything less and you're just ignorant.

Props and rate up for you for having the guts to talk about it.

We all readt have that it's called Shota and Lilocon look it into it lol

Edited, Mon Aug 9 03:28:59 2004 by BitTheBlack

Has SE commented on this topic at all? I know the Japanese culture is much more liberal with sex and sexual content in general, then here in conservative America. Japan doesn't view homosexuality, transgenderism, cross-dressing, etc.. as America does, and it's certainly not a religious debate for them either. I really can't see this as a hot issue for them . However, I do find it odd that a conscious decision was made to not allow same sex to marry. It leaves me to wonder, since FFXI had been released in America, maybe they took that into consideration and decided to restrict the marriages. Ehh, I personally think that we should be allowed to marry whomever we choose...but it's not worth the engery to fight over. Instead, but that energy into real life actions and get Bush out of office! There's your real problem, ***** video games, he's trying to alter the constitution, not allowing any same sex marriages in any state!


student: sooo..the pilgrims left England to escape religious persecution?
teacher: right.
student: and so they end up in america, spreading christian fundamentalism and killing witches based on their religious beliefs?
teacher: well...uh....
student: so, hypocrisy has translated well throughout history. Aren't we supposed to learn from our mistakes?


edit: spelling

Edited, Mon Aug 9 03:36:51 2004 by PixelFiend

Edited, Mon Aug 9 03:37:33 2004 by PixelFiend

Edited, Mon Aug 9 03:38:08 2004 by PixelFiend