On the subject of in-game same-sex marriage....Follow

"And what gives the apples the right to deny rights and freedoms to the oranges?"

Nothing is being denied, it's all just in your head. Noone is stopping you from loving and being with whomever you want. Something can't be taken away that was never there. You NEVER had the right to marry same sex before. Not EVER throughout ALL time. Despite great expanses of water, societal differences, and no means of contact has any culture throughout time allowed same sex marriages. It has always been a natural union of a man and a woman. You're making up a right and feeling discriminated against for not having it... That's not right. A lot of people see it that way. This whole "gay movement" for marriage is like a spoiled child screaming in a WalMart. Noone wants ot hear it anymore. Everyone HAS to hear it because the kid can scream loud enough. Everyone wants the kid to be taken home and dealt with. And America looks like the typical bad parent that doesnt know what to do...

Social definitions changes too. Governemnt changed to include more type of government, citizen definition was changed to include women. Redefining political's marriage definition (as the religious one cannot and should not be changed because of the right to choose your religion) could easily be changed to two willing human beings instead of a man and a woman. No one lose anything in it. There's only 10% of the population that will gain the right to be equals.

Someone where I live once said: "We say gay pride because pride is the opposite of shame. However what I really want is just gay dignity".


Regards

Edited, Mon Aug 9 16:54:55 2004 by Manukiriki

Interesting thread.... I came into this 4 pages in, so bear with me as I try to encompass what I have read...

First off, I should state I am an out and proud gay man. My official stance on the issue is that SE made a mistake bringing marriage into the game, at least into the NA market, when it has been such a prevalent political issue. By doing so, they have broadcasted their political views, and as a result helped to influence younger players and further intolerance in a self proclaimed "community" platform. The fact that marriages can ONLY occur between M/F characters, discussions MUST have been made by SE deciding on this course of action. Gay marriages were not an oversight, they were deliberate. Along the same lines, multiracial marriages are allowed, which leads ME to believe SE made that decision deliberately as well to avoid being singled out as a racist organization....

By the way, I am Canadian, living in Toronto. I can legally get married to another man.

There has been quite a bit of religion tied into this thread. I do not proclaim to be an expert on Christianity, but I have read the bible, and I do not consider myself a Christian. Quoting scripture at me makes me laugh, because MY personal belief, (let the flames come), is that organized religion is the worlds biggest joke. Obviously there was reason for the creation of religions to provide explanations for the unknown, as a method of creating a morality base, to teach life lessons (same as fables), and provide a means for politicians and leaders as a method of control. The joke lies in the telling that the bible is divine, and that its scriptures are true retellings of what actually happened. The victor writes the history books. I respect Christianity in terms of most of the moral structures it teaches, but I abhor the way people take every word as gospel, and twist passages to promote a position. Times have changed, which creates misunderstandings in the religions that were created. [refer back to posts about Leviticus previously]. The population is supposedly more educated as well now and can comprehend things told them without the guise of entertaining stories of wonder and glamour (i.e. miracles). Let movies and television do that. The churches wield power over the masses because people let them, and allow ancient dogma to be the framework of their own belief systems. I do not fear that my soul will burn in hell because I lay with man, and I do not fear that your soul will burn if you associate with me, witness men holding hands, getting married, or having equal basic human rights. I support your right to your beliefs... I do not support your beliefs trampling on my rights.

In terms of the genetics/evolution thread.. Most of it went above my head cause I skimmed... There are more cases than the three mentioned... I saw a nature special that showed lions exhibiting homosexual behavior (so there is hope for the Mithra lesbians gaining marriage). Regardless of the number of species, it does show that it exists in nature, so I would appreciate it if people stopped saying "homosexuality is unnatural" ... By definition it is not. Also along the same thread, there was an argument around evolution requiring heterosexuality... Maybe I don't understand the gist of the debate, but, Yeah, if it wasn't for heterosexuals having sex there wouldn't be any of us homosexuals... So keep up the good work and breed away! I think you were trying to point out that homosexually is not the common trait for succession of species and therefore is abnormal. But if only heterosexuals creates offspring, why would homosexually keep appearing and not be extinct... If it doesn't go away because it got bred out, does that not say in some form that it is a normal occurrence?

Just a side note while talking about breeding... marriage and procreation are not mutually inclusive, so that is not an argument for anti-gay marriage.

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There is nothing stopping the jokes as it is! You may not have noticed the extent of hate speech in the game because you are not sensitive to it. Every time I turn around, someone is using gay as a descriptive in a derogatory sense. Most of the time I let it pass because I am on to play a game instead of spark a debate, but I have frequently made an issue of it. You don't see any hate speech towards any racial groups or cultures (with the exception of the NA/Japanese rivalry). How do you think it would go over if someone called another <insert racial slang here>, or was complaining about Summerfest, and said "This event is so <insert religion here>. ?

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Why does acceptance always come with words like regrettable or distasteful? I do not regret my life, my choices, or the fact that I am homosexual. I hardly feel that homosexual sex is any more or less distasteful then non-procreating heterosexual sex.
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Thanks for your input... You have your right to believe that, and this is a forum to express it. I don't mean this to come across as a flame, but I think you are quite ignorant judging people you don't understand. You could have left your sentence as I don't condone gay/lesbians. Was it really necessary to add "stomach churn", "not natural", & "fundamentally wrong"? You took a standpoint, and furthered it with an insult, not to mention any backup.

I guess I will end my ranting now. I did not want to take all the RL issues into this, but it is all in response to others pulling it that way.

(And to those that ask what have I done to make things better, I will let you know I volunteer my time to a number of organizations and have participated in a number of activist activities.)

Human rights are for everyone, even if you are a Galka

ick

Edited, Mon Aug 9 17:14:36 2004 by Lefein

Ancient civilizations did not have the red tape, tax laws, spousal benefits, ... that our society does now.

First, let me confess that I am a forty-year-old, politically conservative, heterosexual with no gay or lesbian friends (that I know of). Like some who have posted here, I, too, am weary of listening to the debates and marches and exhibitions for and against same-sex marriage. Where I differ from those other posters is how I’d like to silence the cacophonous din. I’m in favor of governmental recognition of same-sex marriage. I’ve studied the issue closely and I’ve concluded that allowing gays and lesbians to suffer through marriage just like straight people simply does not affect me. It in no way diminishes my relationships. I feel no unease when I see a gay or lesbian couple, so what the hell do I care if they’re filing joint tax returns?

I suppose my only concern over the issue is that allowing same-sex marriages will lead to further “mainstreaming” of what is, IMO, an alternative lifestyle, thereby artificially elevating what is still a small minority to equal status with the majority of conventional relationships. By “equal status” I refer to the perceived proportion of homosexuals to heterosexuals. As adults, we have the ability to retain perspective. I’m not sure about children though. I’m not sure what messages will get misconstrued by children, who are already impressionable and imitative. I worry about what will be taught in our schools.

So, yeah, I have concerns, but they’re not so dire as to warrant depriving people legal recognition of their relationships. Adding the imprimatur of the State to their union will not create any new rights … all of the “rights” sought by gays and lesbians already exist, just currently only for hetero spouses. Anyway, “gay marriage” means there will also be “gay divorce” and that means more business for my colleagues who practice family law.

And for the person who mentioned their wills, as long as the lawyer you used knows what he’s doing, there is no problem. I’m unaware of any state that restricts beneficiaries of a will. Your families have no claim to your estates. In fact, in most jurisdictions, the only person who has the right to take part of an estate without being a named beneficiary is a spouse … and it seems doubtful you need to worry about that.

Legal unions... problem solved

Warlord Lefein,

Allow me to point out the following to you (taken from Wikipedia). I hope this clears up some of your questions about gay marriage in history.

(Ironically, as stated in the follow up article on homosexuality in China, it was the importation of Western Christianity that firmly established homophobia in China.)

cheers!


History of same-sex unions

The east

For detailed information, please see Homosexuality in Japan, Homosexuality in China, History of homosexuality.

Same-gender romantic love or sexual desire has been recorded from ancient times in the east. Such desire often took the form of same-sex unions, usually between men, and often included some difference in age (there is far less information available on relationships among women in ancient times. This may in part reflect a philosophy that saw writing about women as unnecessary or inappropriate, or may be because same-sex attraction between women was not valued as it was between men, or may even be because women were not afforded equal status with men, so that, while men were free to pursue sexual and romantic pleasure both within and without marriage, women often were not).

In China, especially in the southern province of Fujian where male love was especially cultivated, men would marry youths in elaborate ceremonies. The marriages would last a number of years, at the end of which the elder partner would help the younger find a (female) wife and settle down to raise a family.

The west

There is a long history of same-sex unions in the western world. That many early western societies tolerated, and even celebrated, same sex relationships is well-known. Evidence of same-sex marriage, however, is less clear, but there exists some evidence, often controversial, of same-sex marriages in ancient Rome and Greece, and even in medieval Europe. Same-sex unions have also been recorded among Native Americans and Africans.

In ancient Rome, for example, the Emperor Nero is reported to have married, at different times, two other men in wedding ceremonies. Other Roman Emperors are reported to have done the same thing. The increasing influence of Christianity, which promoted marriage for procreative purposes, is linked with the increasing intolerance of homosexuality in Rome.

Same-sex marriage has been documented in many societies that were not subject to Christian influence. In North America, among the Native American societies, it has taken the form of two-spirit-type relationships, in which some members of the tribe, from an early age, heed a calling to take on female gender with all its responsibilities. They are prized as wives by the other men in the tribe, who enter into formal marriages with these two-spirit men. They are also respected as being especially powerful shamans.

In Africa, among the Azande of the Congo, men would marry youths for whom they had to pay a bride-price to the father. These marriages likewise were understood to be of a temporary nature.

Finally, in Europe during Hellenic times, pederastic relationships between Greek men (erastes) and youths (eromenos) who had come of age were analogous to marriage in several aspects. The age of the youth was similar to the age at which women married (the mid-teens), and the relationship could only be undertaken with the consent of the father. This consent, just as in the case of a daughter's marriage, was contingent on the suitor's social standing. The relationship, just like a marriage, consisted of very specific social and religious responsibilities, and also had an erotic component.

This game was made in japan, not america where se can do what ever we want, when we want with a dew exceptions. I have never seen a gay man that was raised in Japan or near that rgion. As im sure they're are, its just not as common. Japanese have very high standards and probly dislike the idea...But this is just a game after all. There are no benefits of getting married, no special treatment, nothing besides a ring or something. besides, how many of you really wanna see a Galka or Male Elvaan run around in a wedding dress...

Lunaras, I told myself I wasn't going to reply again, but JEEZ.

Did you read the thread? In Japan, the family is viewed as more important then sexuality. Someone can be gay, but they still have a family, and they go to brothels for their sexual activity. They don't view it as hetero or homosexual, they view it as man or women.

And why the hell would a male wear a wedding dress?

This person can raise his kids however he wants. Hell, if he wants to teach them to be racist or even neo-*****, it's his prerogative. But what does me being able to marry Max have to do with his religious freedoms? I'm not telling him to stop being Christian. I'm not even telling him to stop being a bigot. I'm telling him to stop making my decisions FOR me and setting limits on MY rights. He can view it as wrong all he wants to, but considering that every scrap of scientific evidence proves that it does NOT "harm society", regardless of HIS moral code he has no leg to stand on when trying to say that MY relationship shouldn't be afforded the same protections as his.

Whether or not you are born that way or choose to be that way makes no difference. You still choose your own actions in life. There are some in this world who cast aside all sexual emotion in pursuit of spirtuality. There are even some people who accepted homosexuality but have become straight. The fact of the matter is, when it comes to the issue of homosexuality I completely agree with the Japanese view on this subject. Whatever you do to get your jollies is your business. Noone is a victim of anything unless they choose to be. If it pleases you to be with someone of your gender then by all means go out and fulfill your desires. Don't act like you are out of control of yourself and that everyone has to accept you for it. The truth of the matter is noone needs to know. When you see people prading around at gay pride marches and crap like that. It only shows that those who have the least to say yell the loudest. There are no gay rights or hetero rights or any rights inbetween in the matter of the subject. Its all people proclaiming that they get their jollies doing something and feel like you need to know or somehow accomodate them for it. Some people actually get their jollies while looking at pictures of cartoons too. Do I think it's normal? No! Do I think it's bizzarre, yes! But, do i think it's any of my business? HELL NO! I don't want to know what gets you off. I could care less what gets you off. Do I need to accomodate you or treat you special in any way because of what you get your jollies on? HELL NO! Do you need to treat me a certain way because I like girls? Nope, I work with a lot of gay guys who say Im cute, or that some movie star or another is cute... Does it bother me? Only in the sense that they are so outward about sexuality and it's politically correct of me to just let it be. I'm sure if I started talking about Jenna Jamesons gozangas however I would get sued for harrassment and have a hard time finding a job.. But, hey! Noone needs to know what I think about Jenna Jameson's boobs anyways, right!? Exactly!

Think about it...