I suck at the internet.
Edited, Sun Jan 18 04:57:04 2004 by Averoth
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No WHM = No Party?Follow
I suck at the internet. yeah, I hear that final boss is hard. :P
Anyway, yeah, parties SHOULD have a WHM, doesn't mean they have to have one. I've run fine with PLD and 2 RDM, and the two best parties I've ever been in were WHM less. (The one of note was interesting, to say the least. 2 Mithra THF, 1 Taru PLD, 1 Mithra BRD, 1 Hume RDM, 1 Elvaan BLM....ALL OWN.)
Anyway, yeah, parties SHOULD have a WHM, doesn't mean they have to have one. I've run fine with PLD and 2 RDM, and the two best parties I've ever been in were WHM less. (The one of note was interesting, to say the least. 2 Mithra THF, 1 Taru PLD, 1 Mithra BRD, 1 Hume RDM, 1 Elvaan BLM....ALL OWN.)
What's even worse than fighting without a WHM is fighting with a WHM whose connection drops him 30 seconds into an IT clipper fight in Qufim. Never had a chance to cast more than 2 or 3 cures before he mysteriously leaves our group. The result? I'm the only survivor of our 6-person group, minus the disconnected WHM. And in that party I had to save the tank's *** more than once because the WHM was out of mana and I had to use my warrior sub to provoke and take some hits. This was with three warriors. As a melee thief I resent the comment that " have no reason to be picky." Major damage, which is my job every sixty seconds, depends on the ability of the tank(s) to hold the hate long enough for me to do sneak attack. I know that without trick attack until level 30, I run the risk of getting aggro stacking SA + WS, so on a clipper I can only take a few hits in case if I have to survive an AoE attack during the battle. From a melee standpoint the WHM is important unless you've got a good group of damage dealers. Qufim is a very dangerous place and picking up a second or third (or even fourth) mob is very likely; the WHM can keep the party alive for the rest of the 50 people by the tunnel entrance to take down the mob.
Edited: I forgot that "[I]" would trigger italics...English before computers, always...
[i]Edited, Sun Jan 18 09:22:02 2004 by TheFunch
Edited: I forgot that "[I]" would trigger italics...English before computers, always...
[i]Edited, Sun Jan 18 09:22:02 2004 by TheFunch
I agree with 1) the impatience thing and 2) the fact that a RDM can heal pretty well. First of all, RDMs seem to be even rarer than WHMs, so same problem here :)
Concerning the impatience: hard to find a group that even wanna wait 30 mins for a healer before starting to hunt bigger mobs. There are always people like "Can we please kill?" or "Why we kill mobs for 30 exp? Let's kill bigger now". I tend to suggest to such people that they should try a nice singleplayer game if they want instant action.
I noticed an even worse thing: If you wanna kill the highest mobs in any given zone, you don't have enough healing power with even 1 WHM in group - very often assistance healage is needed or your WHM runs out of MP (as BLM/WHM I toss in assist cure IIs very often). The only way to avoid a single healer going OOM in tough battles is the permanent use of a Renkei (weapon skill chain) - but sadly two thirds of the groups in the mid 20s I encountered so far are not able to execute such chain reliably :(
This leads to another fact that I don't understand: people always want the ultimate 200+ exp kills and even accept enormous downtimes after each mob and several deaths in the PT to see this "eyecandy" exp messages. I often seen members leaving PT or starting to rant when a group "only" chained 5-7 lower clippers in Qufim for a total of 300-400 exp before downtime - but chaining lower mobs is definately better exp/hr than an occasional 200+ exp mob every 10 minutes.
Concerning the impatience: hard to find a group that even wanna wait 30 mins for a healer before starting to hunt bigger mobs. There are always people like "Can we please kill?" or "Why we kill mobs for 30 exp? Let's kill bigger now". I tend to suggest to such people that they should try a nice singleplayer game if they want instant action.
I noticed an even worse thing: If you wanna kill the highest mobs in any given zone, you don't have enough healing power with even 1 WHM in group - very often assistance healage is needed or your WHM runs out of MP (as BLM/WHM I toss in assist cure IIs very often). The only way to avoid a single healer going OOM in tough battles is the permanent use of a Renkei (weapon skill chain) - but sadly two thirds of the groups in the mid 20s I encountered so far are not able to execute such chain reliably :(
This leads to another fact that I don't understand: people always want the ultimate 200+ exp kills and even accept enormous downtimes after each mob and several deaths in the PT to see this "eyecandy" exp messages. I often seen members leaving PT or starting to rant when a group "only" chained 5-7 lower clippers in Qufim for a total of 300-400 exp before downtime - but chaining lower mobs is definately better exp/hr than an occasional 200+ exp mob every 10 minutes.
I find the problem with parties with no white mage isn't that you need a white mage, it's that other classes with healing ability refuse to face the stark reality that their healing is the single most important thing they can do for a group. Any WHM who isn't a complete moron has accepted that his primary job is healing, and in fact, he has very little else that he can do. And to heal, you don't need to be the proper level, expensive spells, up to date skill levels, or even a decent MND stat, all you need is raw mana.
The only problem is that RDM tend to want to melee, BLM want to nuke, and that PLD simply can't accept that he could cut the downtime in half if he would assist healing instead of saving his TP. Now, if your party is disciplined and experienced enough, it's not a problem, but that's a pipe dream most of the time.
I, for one, am a fan of people who are willing to leave parties if they feel it isn't working. If you're a leader, the good players will stay as long as you show yourself to be competent. And if you're joining someone else's party, you're not really doing anyone a favor by staying in a ****** party. Either you're better than the ****** party and could be helping a competent party form, or you're contributing to the party sucking and they'd be better off without you anyway.
If I join a party and the party composition looks unworkable, rest assured I'm already messaging other leaders. While it's true that good players can make any party work ok, a party with perfect composition can still suck horribly with bad players. Why cripple your chances by starting on a bad foot with a badly formed group? Not to mention the fact that any leader recruiting my class instead of a class he badly needs probably isn't very good anyway.
When forming a group, the first thing I get is a mage who can heal. And if I can't get one, it's very simple: I join another group. That way you don't have to wait half an hour to fill that last spot with a healer, retention rates improve, and you're not forming extraneous groups in a zone.
The only problem is that RDM tend to want to melee, BLM want to nuke, and that PLD simply can't accept that he could cut the downtime in half if he would assist healing instead of saving his TP. Now, if your party is disciplined and experienced enough, it's not a problem, but that's a pipe dream most of the time.
I, for one, am a fan of people who are willing to leave parties if they feel it isn't working. If you're a leader, the good players will stay as long as you show yourself to be competent. And if you're joining someone else's party, you're not really doing anyone a favor by staying in a ****** party. Either you're better than the ****** party and could be helping a competent party form, or you're contributing to the party sucking and they'd be better off without you anyway.
If I join a party and the party composition looks unworkable, rest assured I'm already messaging other leaders. While it's true that good players can make any party work ok, a party with perfect composition can still suck horribly with bad players. Why cripple your chances by starting on a bad foot with a badly formed group? Not to mention the fact that any leader recruiting my class instead of a class he badly needs probably isn't very good anyway.
When forming a group, the first thing I get is a mage who can heal. And if I can't get one, it's very simple: I join another group. That way you don't have to wait half an hour to fill that last spot with a healer, retention rates improve, and you're not forming extraneous groups in a zone.
9 posts
I make my own parties alot, I find it much more effective than sitting in Jeuno with my seek flag up.
- When I log on, the first thing I do is check who in my immediate areas are looking for group. After that, I do a /who class level all etc, and see if there are people around my level looking for parties else where. If there are not enough people to make a party, or if there are not enough essential jobs available, I don't bother. There is no use trying to make a PT with 10 tanks looking for party and no healers.
- When I start a PT, I invite a support first. Preferably whm, but rdm or brd can be a good start. People are more willing to join if you have a healer in your PT already. It is good practice to tell people what jobs are already in your PT when you send people tells for invite. All the JP players who has ever invited me has done this.
- It is better to have a whm and a rdm in the PT. Whm for erase and rdm for dispel. However, two rdm with convert is more than adequate.
- Invite JP players, they tend to be more patient and ***** alot less.
Lastly, no whm = no pt is certainly not true, it depends on what you are fighting. Two rdm with convert is very effective, unless you are fighting mobs with annoying debuffs like str down or attack down. For instance, crawlers they mostly use cocoon (def up) and sometimes inflict slow down (which isn't that bad really), as long as your rdm can dispel then its fine, therefore in this case 2 rdm is fine. However, for crab mobs that uses both def up abilities and str down abilities, it would require both whm and rdm to be effective (erase str down and dispel def up).
- When I log on, the first thing I do is check who in my immediate areas are looking for group. After that, I do a /who class level all etc, and see if there are people around my level looking for parties else where. If there are not enough people to make a party, or if there are not enough essential jobs available, I don't bother. There is no use trying to make a PT with 10 tanks looking for party and no healers.
- When I start a PT, I invite a support first. Preferably whm, but rdm or brd can be a good start. People are more willing to join if you have a healer in your PT already. It is good practice to tell people what jobs are already in your PT when you send people tells for invite. All the JP players who has ever invited me has done this.
- It is better to have a whm and a rdm in the PT. Whm for erase and rdm for dispel. However, two rdm with convert is more than adequate.
- Invite JP players, they tend to be more patient and ***** alot less.
Lastly, no whm = no pt is certainly not true, it depends on what you are fighting. Two rdm with convert is very effective, unless you are fighting mobs with annoying debuffs like str down or attack down. For instance, crawlers they mostly use cocoon (def up) and sometimes inflict slow down (which isn't that bad really), as long as your rdm can dispel then its fine, therefore in this case 2 rdm is fine. However, for crab mobs that uses both def up abilities and str down abilities, it would require both whm and rdm to be effective (erase str down and dispel def up).
This thread seems for the most part to be one-sided. While it's a fair argument you're making, you need to look at the other side, too.
First off, I'll agree that a party can function well without a WHM, though some form of constant healing is necessary if you want to chain or take down ITs for the big xp. One solid RDM, help from a PAL, or a couple WHM subs can usually fill in quite nicely. Don't be mad when someone won't join or doesn't want to stay when you have no healing whatsoever, though. As someone else stated, it's my *** on the line every fight with no one to heal, and I probably have no idea how well anyone in this new group can perform.
The "a little xp while you wait is better than none" attitude has one fundamental flaw: when you're grouped, you're no longer available. If you walk into a zone with 4 balanced and established parties already there hunting, why rush to join a pick-up group with whoever is around? Sooner or later, someone is going to leave from another party and you've just taken yourself out of the pool of people they can grab to fill the spot. A little patience can make things a lot easier for everyone. Additionally, what are you going to do with your full group when a healer does show up? I'm not going to be the one to leave now that we're just about to start getting the great xp. In the original post, you said you left a spot open for a healer and just fought toughs. What level are you and where are you fighting that you can kill toughs with a party of five melees and no healing? That kind of stuff just doesn't fly when you've outgrown Qufim and Kazham. Give all the "my party had X classes, X levels and we were fighting in X" examples you want; if you did well with a party of only five normal melees and you're 40+, I'll pay for your worldpasses to come join my linkshell.
I could give countless personal examples, but I can summarize by saying that every time I've waited for an at least semi-balanced group with healing as opposed to diving right in at the first invite I got, I've advanced exponentially faster in xp. For the naysayers that encourage us all to take it easy and stop to smell the roses, I have hours to enjoy each and every level even in the best of groups. I only get new tricks every 5-10 levels, else all the levels from X5 to X0 are pretty much the same. Do the math; that's a still lot of time to enjoy the ride.
I'd like to point out that I say all of this as a THF, which is quite possibly the least desireable class when it comes time to fill spot #6 (due mainly to a lack of awareness about how useful THFs can be and the fact there are WAY too many of them up to level 35). This is one of those issues where neither side is really wrong and they'll always bicker because of it.
First off, I'll agree that a party can function well without a WHM, though some form of constant healing is necessary if you want to chain or take down ITs for the big xp. One solid RDM, help from a PAL, or a couple WHM subs can usually fill in quite nicely. Don't be mad when someone won't join or doesn't want to stay when you have no healing whatsoever, though. As someone else stated, it's my *** on the line every fight with no one to heal, and I probably have no idea how well anyone in this new group can perform.
The "a little xp while you wait is better than none" attitude has one fundamental flaw: when you're grouped, you're no longer available. If you walk into a zone with 4 balanced and established parties already there hunting, why rush to join a pick-up group with whoever is around? Sooner or later, someone is going to leave from another party and you've just taken yourself out of the pool of people they can grab to fill the spot. A little patience can make things a lot easier for everyone. Additionally, what are you going to do with your full group when a healer does show up? I'm not going to be the one to leave now that we're just about to start getting the great xp. In the original post, you said you left a spot open for a healer and just fought toughs. What level are you and where are you fighting that you can kill toughs with a party of five melees and no healing? That kind of stuff just doesn't fly when you've outgrown Qufim and Kazham. Give all the "my party had X classes, X levels and we were fighting in X" examples you want; if you did well with a party of only five normal melees and you're 40+, I'll pay for your worldpasses to come join my linkshell.
I could give countless personal examples, but I can summarize by saying that every time I've waited for an at least semi-balanced group with healing as opposed to diving right in at the first invite I got, I've advanced exponentially faster in xp. For the naysayers that encourage us all to take it easy and stop to smell the roses, I have hours to enjoy each and every level even in the best of groups. I only get new tricks every 5-10 levels, else all the levels from X5 to X0 are pretty much the same. Do the math; that's a still lot of time to enjoy the ride.
I'd like to point out that I say all of this as a THF, which is quite possibly the least desireable class when it comes time to fill spot #6 (due mainly to a lack of awareness about how useful THFs can be and the fact there are WAY too many of them up to level 35). This is one of those issues where neither side is really wrong and they'll always bicker because of it.
WHM 36, PAL 30, WAR 22, BLM 18 - and in my experience, whether or not you need a WHM depends entirely on the skill level of your members. In low levels, I've been in groups of all WARs with one sub-jobbed WHM - and have been OK. Experienced players know their limitations, non-experienced players will insist everything is fine and take many risks. But at higher levels, you need a WHM to get good XP, no exceptions.
I've left several groups because they didn't have a decent healer. Some, such as myself, prefer to sit around flagged as LFG hoping to jump into an allready established group. Sure, it takes longer, but sometimes you're just flat-out better off sitting there then forming a rag-tag party. If theres allready a massive healer shortage, chances are there are several other groups around who will snag that WHM when they get online, so your group will continue to get really low XP for the rest of the night - and in the meantime no other parties will be inviting you as their members leave, since you're allready grouped.
Having played a WHM, I know how picky we can be. When I go LFG and get 4 offers right off the bat, I go with the most promising one - not the one thats needs a WHM the most, or has been without a healer the longest. And if another healer messages me asking if I want to take their place, you can bet I'll usually always take the offer over hopping into a startup group. So unless your rag-tag group just happens to be a -very- well balanced PT save the missing WHM, you have a pretty low chance of me joining your group anyhow.
As for grouping without a WHM - my 'rule of thumb' is that your party will generally be fine if at least 3 people have some level of healing ability, and one of those 3 has access to the appropriate 'high level' cure of your level for emergencies. RDMs are a good standin as long as they have 1 or 2 other people to help when things get tough, because generally they can't handle it all alone in those cases.
Edited, Sun Jan 18 15:39:55 2004 by Bahru
Edited, Sun Jan 18 15:49:22 2004 by Bahru
I've left several groups because they didn't have a decent healer. Some, such as myself, prefer to sit around flagged as LFG hoping to jump into an allready established group. Sure, it takes longer, but sometimes you're just flat-out better off sitting there then forming a rag-tag party. If theres allready a massive healer shortage, chances are there are several other groups around who will snag that WHM when they get online, so your group will continue to get really low XP for the rest of the night - and in the meantime no other parties will be inviting you as their members leave, since you're allready grouped.
Having played a WHM, I know how picky we can be. When I go LFG and get 4 offers right off the bat, I go with the most promising one - not the one thats needs a WHM the most, or has been without a healer the longest. And if another healer messages me asking if I want to take their place, you can bet I'll usually always take the offer over hopping into a startup group. So unless your rag-tag group just happens to be a -very- well balanced PT save the missing WHM, you have a pretty low chance of me joining your group anyhow.
As for grouping without a WHM - my 'rule of thumb' is that your party will generally be fine if at least 3 people have some level of healing ability, and one of those 3 has access to the appropriate 'high level' cure of your level for emergencies. RDMs are a good standin as long as they have 1 or 2 other people to help when things get tough, because generally they can't handle it all alone in those cases.
Edited, Sun Jan 18 15:39:55 2004 by Bahru
Edited, Sun Jan 18 15:49:22 2004 by Bahru
Many of my best parties were WHM-less.
In actual fact, my best Valkrum Dunes party got started after 2 hours of aimless LFG, and another 30 minutes of trying to find a WHM in vain, me and 2 THFs formed a party with only a little hope:
15 SAM / 7 WAR me
14 THF / 7 WAR almost 15
15 THF no sub
14 BRD / 7 WHM Cure I spammer, Giver of Protectra and Poisona
14 MNK / 7 WHM 28MP, 3 Cure I's, backup healer (!)
15 RDM no sub Our 'WHM' with Cure II (they get it at lvl 14)
No WHM, No BLM and I was surprised the Bard even stayed that long to find out if we sucked. Surprise surprise, with Third Eye (SAM lv 15 skill) I allowed both THFs to SA any IT mob once each without losing aggro, and SA once more before it died. Needless to say, the amount of offense dished out to them poor crabs/flies/gobs enabled us to get up to chain #5 (T-IT-VT-IT-T-IT etc). At the PT's end, we were levels 18-19.
Give THFs a chance guys. They are a no-mana-required BLM in my books! =). A minimal level spread, decent party setup and skill is more essential to great exp groups.
A BLM who spends all his/her MP nuking an IT mob- exp chain #0 or #1 makes me go ><.
Edited, Sun Jan 18 23:05:46 2004 by Etherr
Edited, Mon Jan 19 01:12:34 2004 by Etherr
In actual fact, my best Valkrum Dunes party got started after 2 hours of aimless LFG, and another 30 minutes of trying to find a WHM in vain, me and 2 THFs formed a party with only a little hope:
15 SAM / 7 WAR me
14 THF / 7 WAR almost 15
15 THF no sub
14 BRD / 7 WHM Cure I spammer, Giver of Protectra and Poisona
14 MNK / 7 WHM 28MP, 3 Cure I's, backup healer (!)
15 RDM no sub Our 'WHM' with Cure II (they get it at lvl 14)
No WHM, No BLM and I was surprised the Bard even stayed that long to find out if we sucked. Surprise surprise, with Third Eye (SAM lv 15 skill) I allowed both THFs to SA any IT mob once each without losing aggro, and SA once more before it died. Needless to say, the amount of offense dished out to them poor crabs/flies/gobs enabled us to get up to chain #5 (T-IT-VT-IT-T-IT etc). At the PT's end, we were levels 18-19.
Give THFs a chance guys. They are a no-mana-required BLM in my books! =). A minimal level spread, decent party setup and skill is more essential to great exp groups.
A BLM who spends all his/her MP nuking an IT mob- exp chain #0 or #1 makes me go ><.
Edited, Sun Jan 18 23:05:46 2004 by Etherr
Edited, Mon Jan 19 01:12:34 2004 by Etherr
13 posts
i've had no problem finding PTs without a whm. I usually just fine 2 rdms to heal, usually with WHM subs. Noone has a problem with it and it works quite well as long as you have enough dmg being dealt and a decent tank to keep aggro. I've also handled mobs with a rdm and a smn/whm or brd/whm. I actually havnt had the trouble you seem to be having with aquiring members and holding onto them.
I have no issues about joining a party without a WHM, actually I prefer it. =)
LOL
Nice one Lungboy =)
Nice one Lungboy =)
Whms are very nice to have but its also not essential. I have been one and rdms if they know thier role they are perfectly capable of healing party members if they have a support healer. When I was around lvl 25 as rdm, we had a blm taru subbed with whm (my friend actually) who had nearly 340 mp (and me with like 180). He spent most of the time being prime healer and me assisting with heals, stick debuffs and such.
Party in Kazham consisted of War/Thf 27(tarutaru and our main tank), Thief/ninja 27(our puller), Monk/war 25, Rdm/blm 25(me), blm/whm 26(my friend and our prime healer), Brd/whm 24. We ended up with 2 lvl ups each and no deaths. We were mainly doing Goblin smiths while building up TP with madongoras. Blm never argued of being prime healer (since his main is 40whm), rather he had time to pull off some debuffs and nukes being prime healer too. I usually sticked 5 debuffs (gravity, paralise, slow, dia (to madongoras)/ bio (to goblins), blind) then sit till blm was low on mp (which hardly was an issue). I sticked regen to sub tankers and that seems to do the trick on keep the entire party healed.
No... I never meleed in this group. Was too busy sticking debuffs and regening the entire party.
Party in Kazham consisted of War/Thf 27(tarutaru and our main tank), Thief/ninja 27(our puller), Monk/war 25, Rdm/blm 25(me), blm/whm 26(my friend and our prime healer), Brd/whm 24. We ended up with 2 lvl ups each and no deaths. We were mainly doing Goblin smiths while building up TP with madongoras. Blm never argued of being prime healer (since his main is 40whm), rather he had time to pull off some debuffs and nukes being prime healer too. I usually sticked 5 debuffs (gravity, paralise, slow, dia (to madongoras)/ bio (to goblins), blind) then sit till blm was low on mp (which hardly was an issue). I sticked regen to sub tankers and that seems to do the trick on keep the entire party healed.
No... I never meleed in this group. Was too busy sticking debuffs and regening the entire party.
Quote:
I cant help but notice that majority of the people claiming you dont NEED a WHM in a group play LVL15 and below characters.
Well all through out Qufim I had many groups with no white mage and was still in awesome groups. In Kazham I once had a party of a pal/war drg/war thf/mnk and another warrior. And we did fine with just the pal healing and resting inbetween pulls and himself tanking. For VT mobs Mandragoras hit like alot weaker than most, it's that sleep that slows stuff down. Now by no means am I saying white mage isn't needed, im just saying it is actually possible to get by without them to some extent. I know more than likely they will be a must have in a party at higher levels.
Well, if any of you can wait until you pass 30 with a job you will level further you will eitehr be pleased or sorely dissapointed. Mages becomes very popular after 30(WHM especially), however the down side is that the tanks (99% WAR) virtually dissapear because of adv. jobs. So unless you are lucky enough to get a post 30WAR, or PAL, or a tough tough dragoon or even drk with war subs, you will find yourself waiting on one of them. Also past 30 getting parties becomes much more difficult as most players quit because they got bored, lvled advanced jobs, or didnt have the patience to wait for a party. I generally organize my parties (43DRK/WAR) and getting a whm is never a problem. Luckly i have a pal friend same lvl so its easier. I am happy if i can organize a party and begin actually fighting in under 2 hours. Yes, 2 hours organizing and going to spot. It can be disheartening for most, but it isnt to bad for me, i like being a sweet DRK hehe.
As a 42 RDM/21 BLM, I can say that WHMs are not absolutely necessary in later levels (mid-game ... I consider endgame 60+). I can heal nearly as well as a WHM (my Cure 3 is maybe 5-8 lower) with the exception of Curaga spells, I can buff the party just as well (though this takes an extra minute or so because I don't have the buffga spells), and most importantly, I'm not that worried about getting mob aggro since I have better defense then most DRK/DRG types. With one refresh cast considered per fight, my mp pool is identical to a taru WHM/SMN and I'm a hume RDM/BLM. White mages are great for extremely tough fights and healing limits my debuffing a bit (though not a problem with a good PLD/WAR tank), but I've found that sometimes it is best to have an extra DRK or DRG in the party and skip the WHM altogether and I still get over 3K XP per hour.
It's all a matter of working all angles. People that say that Red Mages are subpar healers are ignorant (the only difference is slightly less mps), and the people that won't group without a WHM are fools. I just laugh at them while I continue to level faster than them and after watching some of the antics of some absolutely horrible WHMs, I'd much rather take the healing on myself.
It's all a matter of working all angles. People that say that Red Mages are subpar healers are ignorant (the only difference is slightly less mps), and the people that won't group without a WHM are fools. I just laugh at them while I continue to level faster than them and after watching some of the antics of some absolutely horrible WHMs, I'd much rather take the healing on myself.
3 posts
RDM rocks... hehe once partied with another RDM... we ruled...
hmmm.... well maybe not all... only those who have updated spells and equips... hehe
at lvl 20+ regen and a well timed cure II keeps the party going...
debuffs makes ITs become Ts...
wahaha what can i say RDM rocks...
hmmm.... well maybe not all... only those who have updated spells and equips... hehe
at lvl 20+ regen and a well timed cure II keeps the party going...
debuffs makes ITs become Ts...
wahaha what can i say RDM rocks...
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