What if it was like getting a raise, where you have to accept for them to check you, and you can set it to allow, deny, or ask you for confirmation? That would be interesting.
I'd generally leave mine on 'always allow' because I don't mind people investigating say, what lure I'm using while I fish.
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Solid translation of JP /check msgFollow
44 posts
People have, even to today, kept bringing "new" things up. Some of these things make sense, some don't.
The translation IS important to the thread. In fact, the Translation is the PURPOSE of this thread. So let's give it again:
Japanese (Romaji): Kharon wa anata wo jitto mitsumeta.
Translation: Kharon stares intently at you.
NA Release: Kharon examines you.
A good number of you have said "If you think it's rude, turn it off." Okay, I think it's rude for people to stare at me, so I should ignore it and pretend it doesn't happen? Well, I happen to consider staring rude, which must simply be the way I was brought up because nobody else finds it rude to be closely examined or stared at by passersby. I'm the deviant here, so I should pretend people don't stare at me just because I find it rude, and should turn off the System Level 1 messages so I can better ignore it.
Please, let me pull a quote from "The Bilingual Website of FFXI". This one happens to be from their etiquette and manners guide, with the English slightly clarified:
"They may feel embarassed". This is not simply a game, it is a ROLE-PLAYING game. That means that some of the players are totally or mostly in-character while they play, and as such will emulate the emotional responses of their character. If someone is staring at You, how would You respond? You might be embarassed, you might blush, you might be upset at the rudeness of being stared at... there are MANY ways you might react to Me staring at You.
"So turn the filter on to block System Level 1, Kharon."
Wait! Just because I don't like people staring at me doesn't mean I don't want to know about it. Also, you have probably just mispronounced my name, which is a major faux pas, but one I can easily overlook since I can't hear you and thus have no idea that it's happening, and have accepted that people usually mispronounce it. I can get over the fact that being stared at is rude, and simply accept that it happens, but that doesn't mean I've decided to like it.
Checking is a two-edged sword. It can be used to good purposes, such as making sure your Tank isn't in severely gimped armor, or that her sub-job is appropriately leveled. It can also be used to judge, though, and make people feel bad when you say, "Oh, you don't have X item, you should really have it" as has been reported by people in this thread. Some newbies may also use it to find high-level characters and attempt to coerce them into handouts, PL, or whatnot. My BLM/RDM friend goes {/anon} much of the time simply so people don't ask him for a PL or Warp II all of the time.
"Well, if a few players don't like it, tough, they should adapt."
Hang on. Here's a nice idea: Don't /check people unless you have a reason to. A Bazaar is a reason to /check, and so is check PT equipment on a vital character such as your Tank. But we also have a report that a Japanese party NEVER ONCE checked their NA player. They took it on faith that the gear was good enough for the level range, and so they greeted, ate, and fought mobs. Try to keep in mind that these Japanese players were here first, and the North American and European players are the "invaders" into their Vana'diel. They set up a functional economy which we're hard at work destroying, and they laid the groundwork for all of the rules of social interaction within Vana'diel.
To a person within Vana'diel, there is a very real stare every time they are examined, and so to a Role-player and his character that stare is treated as real, and thus rude. If you are not a role-player, that's great, but bear in mind that some of the players are role-players, and some of the players are offended by /check (whether they are role-players or not). It is not society's place to accept the eccentricities of one person, but it IS the place of an individual to respect the desires of those individuals they interact with. So play the game not as a society, but as an individual, and keep that in mind.
~ Kharon the Hunter
[WAR31/NIN15 on Hades]
[{Looking for Party} to do {Promyion-Holla}]
[{Promyvion-Dem} and {Promyvion-Mea}]
[2/6 >> WAR, BLM. {Please check it.}]
The translation IS important to the thread. In fact, the Translation is the PURPOSE of this thread. So let's give it again:
Japanese (Romaji): Kharon wa anata wo jitto mitsumeta.
Translation: Kharon stares intently at you.
NA Release: Kharon examines you.
A good number of you have said "If you think it's rude, turn it off." Okay, I think it's rude for people to stare at me, so I should ignore it and pretend it doesn't happen? Well, I happen to consider staring rude, which must simply be the way I was brought up because nobody else finds it rude to be closely examined or stared at by passersby. I'm the deviant here, so I should pretend people don't stare at me just because I find it rude, and should turn off the System Level 1 messages so I can better ignore it.
Please, let me pull a quote from "The Bilingual Website of FFXI". This one happens to be from their etiquette and manners guide, with the English slightly clarified:
Quote:
1. Before You EXAMINE (/check) Someone
If you wish to check the equipment another person is using, please be considerate and ask them in advance if you may check it. They may feel embarassed if they are examined suddenly.
* If you simply wish to know someone's job or what level that person has attained, use the command "/sea all <t>". By doing this, you can see the targetted person's character information, excepting equipment, without making it know that you have done so. This is preferable, as they will not feel embarassed if you check them in this way.
If you wish to check the equipment another person is using, please be considerate and ask them in advance if you may check it. They may feel embarassed if they are examined suddenly.
* If you simply wish to know someone's job or what level that person has attained, use the command "/sea all <t>". By doing this, you can see the targetted person's character information, excepting equipment, without making it know that you have done so. This is preferable, as they will not feel embarassed if you check them in this way.
"They may feel embarassed". This is not simply a game, it is a ROLE-PLAYING game. That means that some of the players are totally or mostly in-character while they play, and as such will emulate the emotional responses of their character. If someone is staring at You, how would You respond? You might be embarassed, you might blush, you might be upset at the rudeness of being stared at... there are MANY ways you might react to Me staring at You.
"So turn the filter on to block System Level 1, Kharon."
Wait! Just because I don't like people staring at me doesn't mean I don't want to know about it. Also, you have probably just mispronounced my name, which is a major faux pas, but one I can easily overlook since I can't hear you and thus have no idea that it's happening, and have accepted that people usually mispronounce it. I can get over the fact that being stared at is rude, and simply accept that it happens, but that doesn't mean I've decided to like it.
Checking is a two-edged sword. It can be used to good purposes, such as making sure your Tank isn't in severely gimped armor, or that her sub-job is appropriately leveled. It can also be used to judge, though, and make people feel bad when you say, "Oh, you don't have X item, you should really have it" as has been reported by people in this thread. Some newbies may also use it to find high-level characters and attempt to coerce them into handouts, PL, or whatnot. My BLM/RDM friend goes {/anon} much of the time simply so people don't ask him for a PL or Warp II all of the time.
"Well, if a few players don't like it, tough, they should adapt."
Hang on. Here's a nice idea: Don't /check people unless you have a reason to. A Bazaar is a reason to /check, and so is check PT equipment on a vital character such as your Tank. But we also have a report that a Japanese party NEVER ONCE checked their NA player. They took it on faith that the gear was good enough for the level range, and so they greeted, ate, and fought mobs. Try to keep in mind that these Japanese players were here first, and the North American and European players are the "invaders" into their Vana'diel. They set up a functional economy which we're hard at work destroying, and they laid the groundwork for all of the rules of social interaction within Vana'diel.
To a person within Vana'diel, there is a very real stare every time they are examined, and so to a Role-player and his character that stare is treated as real, and thus rude. If you are not a role-player, that's great, but bear in mind that some of the players are role-players, and some of the players are offended by /check (whether they are role-players or not). It is not society's place to accept the eccentricities of one person, but it IS the place of an individual to respect the desires of those individuals they interact with. So play the game not as a society, but as an individual, and keep that in mind.
~ Kharon the Hunter
[WAR31/NIN15 on Hades]
[{Looking for Party} to do {Promyion-Holla}]
[{Promyvion-Dem} and {Promyvion-Mea}]
[2/6 >> WAR, BLM. {Please check it.}]
I always have a reason to check someone: I'm curious what they are wearing. I check lots of high levels. Especially those that have the same job as me. I'm curious what most of them optimize their equipment for. Its educational.
As stated in several of my previous posts here I find asking to be checked a much larger burden, I would much rather just be checked. You are requesting sometimes time by a response.
When you are asking someone if you can check them and you are a roleplayer what are you envisioning, you walk up facing the ground with your hand over your eyes mumbling if its okay to uncover and see their tunic? I guess I'm just not into the rp side of things, but it would seem even more akward from that perspective to ask someone.
I checked someone the other day and they slapped me. Now really if we are in a roleplaying world is that how it works? I glance over at your boots and you smack me? People who don't like being checked (from my experience) are much ruder if we were pretending that this was real life. Usually responding with insults, or violence for someone looking at them.
As stated in several of my previous posts here I find asking to be checked a much larger burden, I would much rather just be checked. You are requesting sometimes time by a response.
When you are asking someone if you can check them and you are a roleplayer what are you envisioning, you walk up facing the ground with your hand over your eyes mumbling if its okay to uncover and see their tunic? I guess I'm just not into the rp side of things, but it would seem even more akward from that perspective to ask someone.
I checked someone the other day and they slapped me. Now really if we are in a roleplaying world is that how it works? I glance over at your boots and you smack me? People who don't like being checked (from my experience) are much ruder if we were pretending that this was real life. Usually responding with insults, or violence for someone looking at them.
Personally, I understand /checks being irritating. I think it can best be equated to gnats flying around you and landing on your face. The first one hits and you don't really care, just brush it off, no harm done. Then ten more come at you and it starts to get annoying.
Luckily SE provided me with some handy dandy bug spray! And I only have to spray it one time, and it will last for eternity! So I've got /check filtered out and I'm a much happier person for it. ^_^
Now here's something I really don't get. I /checked a JPs bazaar while waiting for the airship. He's got one item in there for max gil, I believe it was a Summerstone. Well, good for him I guess, he's got a god item and he wants to show it off. I exit out of the bazaar and start to check out his equipment, I barely read one line before he swaps equipment and prevents me from examining him.
Now, here he is showing off his item in his bazaar. That's all he's doing, showing off. He obviously wants to be checked. So why does he get pissed off and change his gear to keep me from looking at it?
Edit: Wow, heavy on the rate downs...
Edited, Sat Feb 26 05:01:20 2005 by JenovasPuppet
Luckily SE provided me with some handy dandy bug spray! And I only have to spray it one time, and it will last for eternity! So I've got /check filtered out and I'm a much happier person for it. ^_^
Now here's something I really don't get. I /checked a JPs bazaar while waiting for the airship. He's got one item in there for max gil, I believe it was a Summerstone. Well, good for him I guess, he's got a god item and he wants to show it off. I exit out of the bazaar and start to check out his equipment, I barely read one line before he swaps equipment and prevents me from examining him.
Now, here he is showing off his item in his bazaar. That's all he's doing, showing off. He obviously wants to be checked. So why does he get pissed off and change his gear to keep me from looking at it?
Edit: Wow, heavy on the rate downs...
Edited, Sat Feb 26 05:01:20 2005 by JenovasPuppet
People change gear all the time, maybe someone asked them to see how much stats change with equiping some piece or they remembered to euqip something they've just bought or wanted to rest MP or they just like kicking checkers as much as checkers like to check people.
I'd like to respectfully disagree with some of the posters on the meaning of "jitto mitsumeru."
I think that "jitto mitsumeru" does have a deeper (slightly sexual) connotation compared to just staring.
Staring only implies uninterrupted eye contact. For example, you can stare at someone without really thinking about that person. But "mitsumeru" implies that there is some thought behind the eye contact.
I lived and worked in Japan for 7 years, and I have rarely heard the word "mitsumeru" used outside the context of a girl "gazing" at a boy or vice-versa.
However, as with all words, the meaning of "mitsumeru" can change slightly depending on the context. When one player in a game is trying to see another player's stats, there's obviously no sexual implications to that action.
However, if someone told me in real life that
"[Name] wa anata o jitto mitsumeteita"
I would definitely take that to mean [name] has the hots for me.
In summary, I don't think that the use of "mitsumeru" in the game is intended to imply anything sexual. However, it is very commonly used in a pseudo-sexual context in real life (just like the word "gaze"). So I can see how that choice of words can make some people a little uncomfortable.
I think that "jitto mitsumeru" does have a deeper (slightly sexual) connotation compared to just staring.
Staring only implies uninterrupted eye contact. For example, you can stare at someone without really thinking about that person. But "mitsumeru" implies that there is some thought behind the eye contact.
I lived and worked in Japan for 7 years, and I have rarely heard the word "mitsumeru" used outside the context of a girl "gazing" at a boy or vice-versa.
However, as with all words, the meaning of "mitsumeru" can change slightly depending on the context. When one player in a game is trying to see another player's stats, there's obviously no sexual implications to that action.
However, if someone told me in real life that
"[Name] wa anata o jitto mitsumeteita"
I would definitely take that to mean [name] has the hots for me.
In summary, I don't think that the use of "mitsumeru" in the game is intended to imply anything sexual. However, it is very commonly used in a pseudo-sexual context in real life (just like the word "gaze"). So I can see how that choice of words can make some people a little uncomfortable.
Why are people who dont speak fluent Japanese arguing about this? Japanese people programmed it, and surely it couldn't be realeased if a basic game feature had sexual connotations. It wouldn't be a allowed.
People are just too damn sensitive about a line of text. Filter it or live with it, it's simple.
It's not like the /check says '/em stares hatefully at <t> insulting every level of their being and denouncing their ancestors as fools, with his baleful gaze'
People are just too damn sensitive about a line of text. Filter it or live with it, it's simple.
It's not like the /check says '/em stares hatefully at <t> insulting every level of their being and denouncing their ancestors as fools, with his baleful gaze'
rate up for the imformation and quenching of my desire for knowledge.
I decided to respond personally to my ages old post (I tend to be a fire and forget poster, I haven't read everything in here, and I often don't check back on posts)!
I think SE could clear up some, though not all, of the problems by simply changing the phrase to "[Name] wa anata o mite imasu" or "[Name] is looking at you." Being looked at could still be interpreted in all the same ways, and be annoying for the same reasons as the old message, but I think it is less likely to be so. I also really wonder why SE made such an odd word choice in their /check msg. Perhaps they figured that people had to really check someone out to get such detailed info about their gear.
Alright, Sonnette opened Pandora's Box, so let's get technical! (for all you future translators and other interested parties) Please read this post in the same light as the "advanced version translation" in my original post- utterly unnecessary and more a discussion of heavy linguistic matters than something about FFXI. In short: OT!
*****
I completely agree with the second paragraph. The first I will get to. Here we uncover the fine lines of semantic differention between words in different languages. If you are zoned out, obviously drunken and vapidly looking out of the window at Micky D's, English could describe this as "staring" (in fact, while describing the action above, I instinctively wrote "staring out of the window"). Staring does not have to be intentional for almost all English speakers (a yet more convoluted "theory of meaning" discussion would consider the fact that every word has differnt meaning barriers to each speaker, eep!). "Mitsumeru" on the other hand, definitely implies intention. You have to chose/try/voluntarily "mitsumeru." That doesn't change the sexual connotation debate for me though.
As I said in my OP (being able to say "my OP" is much more fun than "the OP"), I don't think that the Japanese has explict sexual implications anymore than the English "stare" does. As you said, if someone said that a guy was staring at you, it could very likely mean the was attracted to you. I reckon that taking long, hard looks at people who turn you on is a cultural universal. And, as Sonnette said, the idea that the word "mitsumeru" carries a sexual connotation in the game's context is pretty far-fetched. (Though, as I said, some will take it that way because meaning really is different for every person).
In summary (again agreeing w/ Sonnette), despite having a frequent connotation (linked to definition) links, there is no denotation of physical attraction in the words "stare" or "mitsumeru."
The OT-ness gets worse from here....
Getting even more picky, I personally don't like the translation "gaze" for "mitsumeru" in most contexts (including this one). "Gaze," by nature, is a very emotive word and thus laden with connotations (and thus difficult to translate skillfully). To me "mitsumeru" is usually far to analytical a word/action to translate as "gaze." I much prefer "nagameru" in most cases, though that is hindered by the "wide angle look" (like you do to take in distant scenery) connotation that it often has.
Japanese provides slim pickings for alternative ways to say "stare." You can "miramu," but that clearly shows hostility and anger. You can "mitoreru," but that usually means being so caught up in something's beauty that you can't take your eyes off of it. You can "gyoshi suru" but that word is way too strong for anything but seriously, fixedly, intently focusing on something.
I think SE could clear up some, though not all, of the problems by simply changing the phrase to "[Name] wa anata o mite imasu" or "[Name] is looking at you." Being looked at could still be interpreted in all the same ways, and be annoying for the same reasons as the old message, but I think it is less likely to be so. I also really wonder why SE made such an odd word choice in their /check msg. Perhaps they figured that people had to really check someone out to get such detailed info about their gear.
Alright, Sonnette opened Pandora's Box, so let's get technical! (for all you future translators and other interested parties) Please read this post in the same light as the "advanced version translation" in my original post- utterly unnecessary and more a discussion of heavy linguistic matters than something about FFXI. In short: OT!
*****
Quote:
I think that "jitto mitsumeru" does have a deeper (slightly sexual) connotation compared to just staring.
Staring only implies uninterrupted eye contact. For example, you can stare at someone without really thinking about that person. But "mitsumeru" implies that there is some thought behind the eye contact.
Staring only implies uninterrupted eye contact. For example, you can stare at someone without really thinking about that person. But "mitsumeru" implies that there is some thought behind the eye contact.
I completely agree with the second paragraph. The first I will get to. Here we uncover the fine lines of semantic differention between words in different languages. If you are zoned out, obviously drunken and vapidly looking out of the window at Micky D's, English could describe this as "staring" (in fact, while describing the action above, I instinctively wrote "staring out of the window"). Staring does not have to be intentional for almost all English speakers (a yet more convoluted "theory of meaning" discussion would consider the fact that every word has differnt meaning barriers to each speaker, eep!). "Mitsumeru" on the other hand, definitely implies intention. You have to chose/try/voluntarily "mitsumeru." That doesn't change the sexual connotation debate for me though.
As I said in my OP (being able to say "my OP" is much more fun than "the OP"), I don't think that the Japanese has explict sexual implications anymore than the English "stare" does. As you said, if someone said that a guy was staring at you, it could very likely mean the was attracted to you. I reckon that taking long, hard looks at people who turn you on is a cultural universal. And, as Sonnette said, the idea that the word "mitsumeru" carries a sexual connotation in the game's context is pretty far-fetched. (Though, as I said, some will take it that way because meaning really is different for every person).
In summary (again agreeing w/ Sonnette), despite having a frequent connotation (linked to definition) links, there is no denotation of physical attraction in the words "stare" or "mitsumeru."
The OT-ness gets worse from here....
Getting even more picky, I personally don't like the translation "gaze" for "mitsumeru" in most contexts (including this one). "Gaze," by nature, is a very emotive word and thus laden with connotations (and thus difficult to translate skillfully). To me "mitsumeru" is usually far to analytical a word/action to translate as "gaze." I much prefer "nagameru" in most cases, though that is hindered by the "wide angle look" (like you do to take in distant scenery) connotation that it often has.
Japanese provides slim pickings for alternative ways to say "stare." You can "miramu," but that clearly shows hostility and anger. You can "mitoreru," but that usually means being so caught up in something's beauty that you can't take your eyes off of it. You can "gyoshi suru" but that word is way too strong for anything but seriously, fixedly, intently focusing on something.
Quote:
Why should people have to turn the filter on to accomodate others?
Because it's easier to filter it out than to ***** about it?
Seriously, click like three buttons, or click a million yelling at someone about checking you?
If you do not like being checked, filter it out, bottom line. Otherwise, you cannot control it, so shut the f*ck up about it if you don't plan to turn it off.
If you hate being checked, and do not filter it, then you have got no damn right to get mad about it. You have the power to not be disturbed by it, yet some people chose to anyway? I think it's because they just like ********************* since it's so easy to not see.
Buzzltyear, lol.. that purple dinosaur is distrubing dude. You know, I wouldn't mind if they had a yes/no option for checking like when you get a raise.
Really... Stop crying.
This is a -GAME-.
Remember? G A M E.
Big freaking deal if someone sees what gear you have. It's not like they're trying to look up your skirt and cop a feel. Jesus, so many uptight people with no sense of reality.
This is a -GAME-.
Remember? G A M E.
Big freaking deal if someone sees what gear you have. It's not like they're trying to look up your skirt and cop a feel. Jesus, so many uptight people with no sense of reality.
Quote:
GFY shoes
LoL... Stalk much?
LOOLOOL I try.....
Don't know if this has been said or not, but dont you think that JP would already know about this. Like, They shouldnt think its rude anymore, since they found out what english are really intentionally meanful for. I mean, its just checking armour, what's the biggie. As well, most people check bazaars using /check.. so think about that.
Sick of people tryin to be like JP tho, its getting ridiculous. My two cents.
Sick of people tryin to be like JP tho, its getting ridiculous. My two cents.
You'd think after 1 year of being "sexually stared at" by other jp, they wouldnt be shocked when NA's do it.
Or the fact that when you check a mob, you get its con... not sexually molest it.
Or that you can check yourself...
But yeah, its just stupid now.
They could put in the NA translation "JohnDoe looks at you and cops a feel" and while it may be shocking at first, after a while of playing the game you would realize that hey, they arent grabbing my e-junk, they are just checking my gear. If not by your own logic, by someone telling you so.
Or the fact that when you check a mob, you get its con... not sexually molest it.
Or that you can check yourself...
But yeah, its just stupid now.
They could put in the NA translation "JohnDoe looks at you and cops a feel" and while it may be shocking at first, after a while of playing the game you would realize that hey, they arent grabbing my e-junk, they are just checking my gear. If not by your own logic, by someone telling you so.
ThePalace wrote:
Kiyokatsu wrote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't think that the Japanese has explict sexual implications anymore than the English "stare" does
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
But the NA text is "examines", not "stare". Just to point that out to others.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't think that the Japanese has explict sexual implications anymore than the English "stare" does
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
But the NA text is "examines", not "stare". Just to point that out to others.
True though that is, we're talking about the Japanese check message, but doing it in English. So I was explaining that the Japanese word is (meaning wise) very, very close to the English word "stare." For an English native speaker, understanding the text that Japanese players see as saying "[Name] stares at you" allows us to think about the issue from their perspective. That's the whole point of a translation (understanding another's language/culture/worldview in your own), which is what I was doing.
why are we even notified people are examining us anyways? it seems pointless. i always like to check peoples gear who are my same job (to see if there's anything special out there i'm missing), but som sometimes i'm shot down with the immature little gear change macro people have (....so, so stupid).. anyways, hi!
well, after a year or two of NA players "stare"-ing at them. don't you think the JP could possibly have figured out that we're not all thinking of getting them in the sack?
really, if they don't like being ckecked, they can filter it. if SE feels that checking is invasive and doesn't want it in the game, they will remove it. beyond that, learn to deal with it. because if i think your armor is cool and i want to know what it is, i am going to check you. and i'm not asking you first.
really, if they don't like being ckecked, they can filter it. if SE feels that checking is invasive and doesn't want it in the game, they will remove it. beyond that, learn to deal with it. because if i think your armor is cool and i want to know what it is, i am going to check you. and i'm not asking you first.
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