I think that at all servers we have beem seem that bazaar is REALLY inflationed :( By myself I try to hold on any buy till get a fair price, yesterday for example, I bought an ornate silk robe for 58k that, I think, is a fair price. In my humble oppinion not all people in bazaar has the ability (or desire) to sell and buy things to get profits, most people are just trying to sell things to buy better things for their characters and when they see the prices going up they just bring up their prices too (I will not discuss the reason behind it). If we just stop to buy till find a fair price on the item that we are willing this will help to increase the offer and the prices will go down. I usually wait for one week or two till find an item on the right price, with some pacience it appears. The problem here is the part of "what is the fair price?" Sites like allakhazan may have a great role at this point. Allakhazan has the prices for many items on the servers and this can help :) Here we can sell and buy items outside the game as well :) Just to instance another example, I saw an ornate silk glove for 15k on the market channel :) Just be pacient and buy with wisdom, don't let the prices go to the sky :) An ornate silk robe will never worth 200k or even 100k :)
Another point posted here is that some items that you can buy on LDON vedors are really great and with time they can became equal or even better than the ornate one :)
Let the people that overprice items with their items in their bags :) If they are really players, they will put the price down after one week without sells and if they aren't really players they will not reach their objectives and leave us to play :)
This theory works for me :)
PS. Sorry about the bad englsh :)
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I agree, and I dont. New items seem to skyrocket, and some items, not that much better than old, seem out of sync with what one would expect for a price increase. The older gear, that was high end just a year ago, is going down, and markedly so. There is not an item I own, and I have 7 very well equipped 60-70K toons that cannot seem to demand the price I paid for an item when I upgrade and it becomes excess. Some are so deflated, i simply give em away. Items I spent 2-3k for, going now for 300-400pp, if I can find a buyer. I am not whinning, but I am watching the prices go up so High on the new items that I cannot afford them, or ever hope to raise the funds anytime soon. And the items I have, are worth only a fraction of what i originally paid. This discussion needs to inlcude reference to both happenings. The new gear costs so high, with little change in stats of gear, and the older still good gear going so low. It is a vicious cycle, lol.
36 posts
Quote:
As for Mr Taarakian who spouts of random drivel and will not post a Char/Server/Guild prove to us you are so uber and you will find people take you a little more seriously <Note i am only lvl 59 and get far more respect from the REAL uber crowd than you simply because i am honest and only post what i KNOW not what i hear in PoK.>
----------------------------
Jarkeld Hammerhiem
Knight of the 59th sphere
Druzzil Ro server
Who or what or if I am has absolutely no bearing on the validity of my proposition.
They stand on their own.
100pp times 4000 player times 1 hour equals 400,000 pp pumped into the economy, no cheating required.
100 x 4000 x 1 = 400,000 is drivel?
Shame, the quality of todays kindergartens, not even the 3 R's anymore.
Wait, I know, you and your ilk are POLITICAL majors, instead of attacking the facts and or figures, you attack the person delivering them. My bad, thought you had some math aptitude.
Quote:
Wait, I know, you and your ilk are POLITICAL majors, instead of attacking the facts and or figures, you attack the person delivering them. My bad, thought you had some math aptitude.
Attually i am in the Navy so i put my life on the line to save your sorry *** and lets face it you started flaming me for no reason what so ever so i responded.
36 posts
Calimyr wrote:
I've made approx 10 million since PoP came out, probably closer to 15 or so, and for what I deal in I'm one trader in 10 or so.
Yes, I can see anyone who wanted to do so making this kind of cash, and if you can, so can the others who complain they can't afford ornate, it's too expensive. Show them how you make this cash so they can buy their ornate please and they can stop whining.
Calimyr wrote:
Other guilds I know have done substantially better than that, making upwards of 50 to 60 million or more, and some breaking the hundred million mark. Where's this money coming from? If raid guilds were removing -billions- of platinum from circulation, why hasn't price come down since platinum would be more scarce?
Ummmm.. the guilds are "removing" this plat from circulation? Are you destroying this plat once you earned it? Doesn't the guild leadership purchase anything in the bazaar to help members get missing spells a bit faster, stead of waiting on a rune drop and turning it in for a duplicate spell? Or buy a missing tradeskill component from a pc vendor to complete a combine for a PoP tradeskill item that could be of benifit to a newer member?
If you are destroying the plat. Hey, to each his own.
If you are buying some stuff in the bazaar, the plat is just recirculating, as it all does.
If you are hoarding the plat, as some top guilds could do since the plat would purchase no upgradeable equipment at their level, it all being no drop, that's fine too, but I see this being a rarity not a common.
Calimyr wrote
I don't mind making a lot more money, but I don't have any explaination for why the economy is bursting with platinum versus me barely being able to move more demanded items during luclin.
Yes, I agree, you don't have an explanation.
There are multiple conjectures, by many people. Methinks they all have some merit to a certain degree, and possibly there are factor(s) noone has discovered.
Basically tho it boils down to
A. Players produce plat by
1. Normal game play
2. Cheats (dups, exploits)
3. Macroing
B. Plat is rarely destroyed
Result - inflation
Since 1 is never going to stop, inflation is always going to be a problem for the desireable gear. 2 and 3 are stopped as fast as SOE can discover them and program fixes, they are only factors in the short term and can produce spikes in the inflation curve but will not in and of themselves cause it nor will the inflation slow down or stop when they are stopped, since 1 is still in play.
Quote:
I've made approx 10 million since PoP came out, probably closer to 15 or so, and for what I deal in I'm one trader in 10 or so.
Yes, I can see anyone who wanted to do so making this kind of cash, and if you can, so can the others who complain they can't afford ornate, it's too expensive. Show them how you make this cash so they can buy their ornate please and they can stop whining.
Calimyr wrote:
Quote:
Other guilds I know have done substantially better than that, making upwards of 50 to 60 million or more, and some breaking the hundred million mark. Where's this money coming from? If raid guilds were removing -billions- of platinum from circulation, why hasn't price come down since platinum would be more scarce?
Ummmm.. the guilds are "removing" this plat from circulation? Are you destroying this plat once you earned it? Doesn't the guild leadership purchase anything in the bazaar to help members get missing spells a bit faster, stead of waiting on a rune drop and turning it in for a duplicate spell? Or buy a missing tradeskill component from a pc vendor to complete a combine for a PoP tradeskill item that could be of benifit to a newer member?
If you are destroying the plat. Hey, to each his own.
If you are buying some stuff in the bazaar, the plat is just recirculating, as it all does.
If you are hoarding the plat, as some top guilds could do since the plat would purchase no upgradeable equipment at their level, it all being no drop, that's fine too, but I see this being a rarity not a common.
Calimyr wrote
Quote:
I don't mind making a lot more money, but I don't have any explaination for why the economy is bursting with platinum versus me barely being able to move more demanded items during luclin.
Yes, I agree, you don't have an explanation.
There are multiple conjectures, by many people. Methinks they all have some merit to a certain degree, and possibly there are factor(s) noone has discovered.
Basically tho it boils down to
A. Players produce plat by
1. Normal game play
2. Cheats (dups, exploits)
3. Macroing
B. Plat is rarely destroyed
Result - inflation
Since 1 is never going to stop, inflation is always going to be a problem for the desireable gear. 2 and 3 are stopped as fast as SOE can discover them and program fixes, they are only factors in the short term and can produce spikes in the inflation curve but will not in and of themselves cause it nor will the inflation slow down or stop when they are stopped, since 1 is still in play.
36 posts
Quote:
Attually i am in the Navy so i put my life on the line to save your sorry *** and lets face it you started flaming me for no reason what so ever so i responded.
----------------------------
Jarkeld Hammerhiem
Knight of the 59th sphere
Druzzil Ro server
Your very FIRST post contains the line:
Quote:
Like the items ever got out of the guild anyway f*cking dolt!
Who flamed who first???
Man I hope you aren't anything more than a deck swabby. Saints preserve us all if you get behind the sights of a gun and start shooting before you figure out who the enemy is or if there is an enemy.
If you do get into battle, don't die for your country, make the other guys die for theirs.
Well you just proved my point. If you don't even know how a guild removes plat from the economoy then you certainly are not in a raid level guild.
It's called the thousands of peridots and emeralds and pearls used each week.
And to make 10 million in PoP you need access to places that your average person doesn't have access to. Of course, you wouldn't know that.
It's called the thousands of peridots and emeralds and pearls used each week.
And to make 10 million in PoP you need access to places that your average person doesn't have access to. Of course, you wouldn't know that.
BigAlFoxTrot wrote:
Quote:
Now to elaborate more on this, where did the plat come from?
You guys wondering where all the plat comes from?
It never really leaves the game.
The only way plat leaves the game is when you buy something from a vendor. Food, water, horses, tradeskill supplies etc.... destroy plat.
The majority of players introduce more plat hunting then they destroy buying things from vendors. So the Everquest economy is like the Federal government, constantly "printing" more money by killing mobs who drop plat and stuff that sells for plat to vendors.
Hmmm... That's still overly simplistic though. Sure. More and more money enters the game, but more and more items do as well. The point is that as long as a certain ratio of items to money exist, the prices will move up or down based on that ratio. Presumably, the prices of a month ago were based on the cumulative growth of a wide assortment of items and money into the game. If we look at it this way, then the longer the game has existed, the *harder* it should be for prices to change dramatically over a short period of time (in either direction). The mass of existing items and money will make even a large delta relatively insignificant.
That's why I say it has to be something more then just inflation. Sure. The plat dup exploits that were buzzing around a month or so ago did some damage, but it shouldn't have been that huge. Also, after the initial "shock" of prices rising, they fell back down again (speculation maybe?). Now, they are rising again, but this time, we don't have a hyperinflation to blame.
The "normal" rate of money entering the economy via LDoN or anything else simply cannot account for the recent rises in prices. They can't. There has to be some other force at work here.
As to ornate being a "status" armor. I guess I completely disagree with your use of the term then. To me, when something is a status item, it's because you buy it purely for the acknowledgement that you have it. You buy an expensive luxury car, not because it gets you from point A to point B better then an economy car, but purely because it's expensive. It shows that you can afford to buy such a thing.
Ornate is not a status item. It's functional. Heck. It's very functional armor for most characters in the game. People don't buy it so they can walk around the bazaar showing off the fact that they could afford 100k for a single piece of armor. People buy it because it makes their character better (or at least most people do).
I'm quite certain that I could get Ornate armor molds at a rate much faster then getting top end LDoN gear. 30ish adventures to get a single piece of gear just seems insane to me. Call me silly...
The point is this. Getting the Ornate drops (or equivalent) requires that you be capable of camping the mobs that drop them. Getting the (equivalent) stuff out of LDoN requires a significant time investment. Either of those are fine to me. A player will pick which one works best for him and go that way. What's happening though is that we're seeing a lot of players who can't camp Ornate drops, and don't want to spend the time getting that many AP points. Why should they? They can just go online at IGE's site, buy up a bunch of plat, and buy the gear instead.
You can't really equate them. If you take the plat buying out of the equation, then everything works and is balanced. The better you are at raiding, the better gear you can get in a shorter amount of time. Less capable characters will need to spend more time, either earning the cash to buy gear, or gathering AP points (or going on pickup raids to get gear, or any of a number of other in game methods). I still say that if you get rid of the online plat sales, then you eliminate the problem. Right now, the demand for Ornate is outstripping the supply because of the plat sales. Anyone who wants Ornate level gear can simply buy it with real money instead of spending the time in game to get it.
If we look just at your time equation, the reason is obvious. You are saying that spending 27 hours is "better" then buying Ornate. Sure. If you're making 2kpp per hour. However. Do this:
Take your hourly salary. Multiply it by 27 hours to get the LDoN armor. Now figure out how much plat you could have simply purchased from IGE instead. That's the measure we're talking about. Most people will find it much more efficient to simply buy plat rather then earn it. End result is that demand for high end items will increase, which in turn will result in those high end items going up in price.
That's exactly what we're seeing happen, and shortly after IGE gained a virtual monopoly on the plat selling business (and gobbled up a zillion game sites so that their advertisement is everywhere). I find that extremely non-coincidental...
King Nobby wrote:
More words please
Scholar
41 posts
Hi, Jim Nesselroad here.
Take an item, any item. Combine it in a forge with a set amount of platinum pieces. Voila new 'lore item or no drop' with improved stats. Takes alot of plat out of the game very quickly, provided the items are worth it from a cost basis.
Another way is to make quests involving large amount of plat turned in to receive a lore/no drop item.
Reduction in plat would lead to reduction in prices as the 'value' of platinum pieces increases with their scarcity.
Every multi-player online game has this difficulty: players kill stuff to get cash, sell items to get more cash, the common items become very cheap. The rare high-end items become incredibly expensive due to the inflation caused by the fact that there is no way to reduce the amount of platinum in the game. The supply of platinum is steadily, quickly increasing. The supply of low-mid level items is increasing at a moderate rate. The supply of very high end items increases but very very slowly. Hence, inflation of prices at the high end is a guarantee. Making quests or manufactured items that require platinum turn-in will help reduce the platinum supply.
Take an item, any item. Combine it in a forge with a set amount of platinum pieces. Voila new 'lore item or no drop' with improved stats. Takes alot of plat out of the game very quickly, provided the items are worth it from a cost basis.
Another way is to make quests involving large amount of plat turned in to receive a lore/no drop item.
Reduction in plat would lead to reduction in prices as the 'value' of platinum pieces increases with their scarcity.
Every multi-player online game has this difficulty: players kill stuff to get cash, sell items to get more cash, the common items become very cheap. The rare high-end items become incredibly expensive due to the inflation caused by the fact that there is no way to reduce the amount of platinum in the game. The supply of platinum is steadily, quickly increasing. The supply of low-mid level items is increasing at a moderate rate. The supply of very high end items increases but very very slowly. Hence, inflation of prices at the high end is a guarantee. Making quests or manufactured items that require platinum turn-in will help reduce the platinum supply.
36 posts
Quote:
Well you just proved my point. If you don't even know how a guild removes plat from the economoy then you certainly are not in a raid level guild.
It's called the thousands of peridots and emeralds and pearls used each week.
And to make 10 million in PoP you need access to places that your average person doesn't have access to. Of course, you wouldn't know that.
----------------------------
Tattle
Lotus Cult
Quellious
Sir Officer Tattle Sir, your forgiveness sir. I will explain my actions.
No, let me sum up.
Ahhh, I love how people throw out vague numbers without having delved into actually adding them up.
Lets go on raids for a week shall we?
Item------Quantity------Cost------Number of days------Subtotal
Peridots----600---------10.5------------7--------------44100
Emeralds----200---------13.7------------7--------------19180
Pearls------350----------4.8------------7--------------11760
Opals-------100---------17.9------------7--------------12530
Coffins-----160*--------68.3------------1--------------21856
Total = 109426 for one week of raiding
Lets see what the game has pumped into it's economy per week shall we?
Players------PP/Hour-----Hours--------Total
4000-----------100--------168-------67200000
Wow, you are destroying 0.16283% of the plat being pumped into the economy, good show. Now if only 614 other guilds would be doing the same, you could destroy the plat as fast as its being generated.
This is why I did not include raid supplies in the post, it's not significant.
*Generally not needed for PoP, except some for RZtW. Usually used for the occasional Screwup in the weekly VT run and now and then a few in SSRA Emperor who went afk and didn't take TL when we left.
Edited, Tue Feb 10 20:32:50 2004 by Taarakian
Ok. First off, are you seriously suggesting that each server has an average of 4 thousand characters online 24 hours a day, 7 days a week? Um... More like 2k peak, and around 800 to 1000 on average.
Also. You are completely ignoring several components of the game.
1. Items drop as well as cash. Most of the items you see for sale in the bazaar are items that dropped in dungeons and what not and where *not* sold for cash. Instead they are being used by the cash.
2. Tradeskill items make up the remainder of items in the bazaar. Um... Those items weren't dropped. In fact, they were made by spending a lot of platinum, most of which ends up back in NPC hands (taken entirely out of the economy).
3. Day to day costs beyond those you listed. Yeah. This is still pretty small, but people do spend cash on food, water, potions, etc... from vendors. That's money that's removed from the economy.
See. The biggie is the items. As I said earlier, it's the ratio of items to loot that's going to determine the overall costs for goods in the game. It doesn't take a mathmatical genius to see that if each character gets 100pp on average for every single worthwhile item drop he gets (assuming non-worthwhile items are vendored for cash), then the average cost of all items across the server *must* be somewhere less then 100pp (less then because of the admittedly small amount of plat that will be removed via tradeskill costs, and other vendor costs (gems, food, coffins, etc). There's no way around that mathmatical fact.
However, the distribution of money will affect the cost of different items (my earlier "burning pocket" theory). The amount that the "high end" items spread out in cost from the average will be directly related to how unevenly the money is spread out among the population of the players. Most importantly, by creating larger "chunks" of money, IGE can artificially cause the prices on those higher end items to rise.
End result may seem the same. However, if it was straight inflation, we'd see increases in everything across the board. For the most part, we're not seeing that. We're seeing inflation only on the "high ticket" items. Note, that by high ticket, I don't just mean most expensive. Popular items are going to rise in prices as well. Someone mentioned a haste item rising in price. Well, there just aren't that many "good" haste items, so while the demand for them might not raise the price much with a normal money distribution, if you've got people with larger chunks of cash in their pockets, they're going to be more willing to shell out a larger amount for those items. It's all about how desired an item is, and sometimes, it's just about how well known an item is.
I checked some prices in the bazaar a couple days ago and it was interesting to say the least. The items that I consider "deals" are still deals (moreso due to the inflation on the popular items). It continues to amaze me that people will pay more for an item that is inferior in every way, simply because they recognize the name.
Dunno. I think this argument is getting silly. The fact is that IGE is violating the EULA, is potentially damaging the economy, and is definatly pissing off a lot of players. That alone justifies their destruction in my eyes... ;)
Also. You are completely ignoring several components of the game.
1. Items drop as well as cash. Most of the items you see for sale in the bazaar are items that dropped in dungeons and what not and where *not* sold for cash. Instead they are being used by the cash.
2. Tradeskill items make up the remainder of items in the bazaar. Um... Those items weren't dropped. In fact, they were made by spending a lot of platinum, most of which ends up back in NPC hands (taken entirely out of the economy).
3. Day to day costs beyond those you listed. Yeah. This is still pretty small, but people do spend cash on food, water, potions, etc... from vendors. That's money that's removed from the economy.
See. The biggie is the items. As I said earlier, it's the ratio of items to loot that's going to determine the overall costs for goods in the game. It doesn't take a mathmatical genius to see that if each character gets 100pp on average for every single worthwhile item drop he gets (assuming non-worthwhile items are vendored for cash), then the average cost of all items across the server *must* be somewhere less then 100pp (less then because of the admittedly small amount of plat that will be removed via tradeskill costs, and other vendor costs (gems, food, coffins, etc). There's no way around that mathmatical fact.
However, the distribution of money will affect the cost of different items (my earlier "burning pocket" theory). The amount that the "high end" items spread out in cost from the average will be directly related to how unevenly the money is spread out among the population of the players. Most importantly, by creating larger "chunks" of money, IGE can artificially cause the prices on those higher end items to rise.
End result may seem the same. However, if it was straight inflation, we'd see increases in everything across the board. For the most part, we're not seeing that. We're seeing inflation only on the "high ticket" items. Note, that by high ticket, I don't just mean most expensive. Popular items are going to rise in prices as well. Someone mentioned a haste item rising in price. Well, there just aren't that many "good" haste items, so while the demand for them might not raise the price much with a normal money distribution, if you've got people with larger chunks of cash in their pockets, they're going to be more willing to shell out a larger amount for those items. It's all about how desired an item is, and sometimes, it's just about how well known an item is.
I checked some prices in the bazaar a couple days ago and it was interesting to say the least. The items that I consider "deals" are still deals (moreso due to the inflation on the popular items). It continues to amaze me that people will pay more for an item that is inferior in every way, simply because they recognize the name.
Dunno. I think this argument is getting silly. The fact is that IGE is violating the EULA, is potentially damaging the economy, and is definatly pissing off a lot of players. That alone justifies their destruction in my eyes... ;)
King Nobby wrote:
More words please
36 posts
Quote:
Ok. First off, are you seriously suggesting that each server has an average of 4 thousand characters online 24 hours a day, 7 days a week? Um... More like 2k peak, and around 800 to 1000 on average.
Since EQ no longer has the server population on the server select screen like in the past, we will have to just add it up ourselves. We have at least 10 top level guilds on with members online in the 70-100 range. Myriad smaller guilds with who knows online. Thousands of unguilded and such wandering around. Hard to calculate that way, It's a moving figure. Let's use some numbers from SOE.
July 29th 2002, 100,000 simultaneous users online, 430,000 subscribers.
August 2003 600,000 subscribers.
We will have to extrapolate now, No numbers forthcoming from SOE since.
From 7-02 to 8-03 they gained 170,000, that is 13,000 new each month.
8-03 to 2-04 is 6 months, 78,000 more, so 678,000 subscribers now.
Anyone have actual current subscriber base? Can't seem to find
it anywhere, I seem to recall reading something about 800,000 recently but can not find the article.
100,000 of 430,000 online in 7-29-02
That would put 157,000 online on 47 servers.
That would be 3340 online avg per server with a possible 14,000 online per server.
The servers are built to handle 5000 online at one time, they add servers and split them in the past when a server constantly had around 5000 on them.
If anyone here was around before the server select screen stopped carrying numbers on server population, they should recall most servers had 3500 - 5000 on them at most times.
Based on this I use a 4000 figure since during peak the servers can have 5000 on them and as few as 3000 off peak, average 4000.
Quote:
1. Items drop as well as cash. Most of the items you see for sale in the bazaar are items that dropped in dungeons and what not and where *not* sold for cash. Instead they are being used by the cash.
Items that go to the bazaar to be sold for floating capital do not count towards the 100 plat per hour made playing the game. Only the cash split that folks get from selling all non bazaarable goods and actual plat dropped from mobs make up the 100 plat per hour base when the group visits the vendors and the main looter sells all his stuff and does a group split.
How much do you think is fair to say folks make per hour from exp. grps and soloing and such?
Quote:
2. Tradeskill items make up the remainder of items in the bazaar. Um... Those items weren't dropped. In fact, they were made by spending a lot of platinum, most of which ends up back in NPC hands (taken entirely out of the economy).
Wow, you can buy items from NPCs to make new stuff that is actually saleable in the bazaar? I want those recipes. Most everything (save stuff like prismatic dye) that has anything of any sale value in the bazaar is made almost exclusively from drops from PoP and as such the plat spent buying the items to make a new item is just circulating.
Quote:
3. Day to day costs beyond those you listed. Yeah. This is still pretty small, but people do spend cash on food, water, potions, etc... from vendors. That's money that's removed from the economy.
Yeap, pretty small, spend 2pp an hour for rations and water and make 100pp an hour adventuring. People actually buy potions from NPCs when you can get them in bazaar for half to one tenth what the NPCs charge?
Nice math. I'm impressed by your ability to assume, and then multiply on a 3rd grade level. Too bad your companent numbers are not even close to what a hardcore raiding guild would use. 600 peridots? Mmmkay.
I was around. Your numbers are high. No server ever hit 5k people online. The most seriously crowded servers, the ones that were split, were around the 3k mark. Your active subscriber numbers are nice, assuming of course that everything is linear. This is real life, it isnt linear. The average server population would be around 2,000 - 2500, not much different than it always has been. Haven't seen any splits lately have you?
Yes you can. Please brush up on your tradeskills and the uses for in demand items made by tradeskills before you attack someone.
Again untrue. A very small percentage of tradeskill items sold in the bazaar require PoP drops, even less from high end zones in PoP.
Much better. I'm impressed that you can click my guild website link and check the roster.
Quote:
If anyone here was around before the server select screen stopped carrying numbers on server population, they should recall most servers had 3500 - 5000 on them at most times.
I was around. Your numbers are high. No server ever hit 5k people online. The most seriously crowded servers, the ones that were split, were around the 3k mark. Your active subscriber numbers are nice, assuming of course that everything is linear. This is real life, it isnt linear. The average server population would be around 2,000 - 2500, not much different than it always has been. Haven't seen any splits lately have you?
Quote:
Wow, you can buy items from NPCs to make new stuff that is actually saleable in the bazaar?
Yes you can. Please brush up on your tradeskills and the uses for in demand items made by tradeskills before you attack someone.
Quote:
Most everything (save stuff like prismatic dye) that has anything of any sale value in the bazaar is made almost exclusively from drops from PoP and as such the plat spent buying the items to make a new item is just circulating.
Again untrue. A very small percentage of tradeskill items sold in the bazaar require PoP drops, even less from high end zones in PoP.
Quote:
Sir Officer Tattle Sir
Much better. I'm impressed that you can click my guild website link and check the roster.
36 posts
Quote:
Too bad your companent numbers are not even close to what a hardcore raiding guild would use. 600 peridots? Mmmkay.
Then provide the numbers that your guild uses. We can plug them in.
Quote:
The average server population would be around 2,000 - 2500
Ok, let's work with those numbers.
Quote:
Quote:
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Wow, you can buy items from NPCs to make new stuff that is actually saleable in the bazaar?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes you can. Please brush up on your tradeskills and the uses for in demand items made by tradeskills before you attack someone.
Provide names of items that are sold in the bazaar that are wholly made from NPC purchased components that have any desireability please (other than the aforementioned prismatic dye, and celestial essence).
Quote:
Again untrue. A very small percentage of tradeskill items sold in the bazaar require PoP drops, even less from high end zones in PoP.
Ok, let's clarify that some.
Are you talking percentage value wise or number wise?
Are you talking tradeskill components (generally used to skill up on) or final products (generally used to equip oneself)?
Finally, provide data of the percentages of the items in question.
Just for giggles, lets plug in some numbers you apparently feel are more appropriate. 600 Peridots not enough to get you through your rebuffs from deaths and such? Ok, lets do 6000 peridots per day.
Item------Quantity------Cost------Number of days------Subtotal
Peridots----6000--------10.5------------7-------------441000
Emeralds----200---------13.7------------7--------------19180
Pearls------350----------4.8------------7--------------11760
Opals-------100---------17.9------------7--------------12530
Coffins-----160*--------68.3------------1--------------21856
Total 506326
4000 players online at the same time too high? Ok, let's do 2000. 100 pp per hour too high? Ok, lets do 50pp.
Players------PP/Hour-----Hours--------Total
2000-----------50---------168-------16800000
Ok, now we have you destroying 3.01384% of the plat produced on your server per week. You need to die 33.33 times more each night if you want use up enough peridots to solve the inflation problem on your server.
BigAlFoxTrot wrote:
Quote:
Now to elaborate more on this, where did the plat come from?
You guys wondering where all the plat comes from?
It never really leaves the game.
The only way plat leaves the game is when you buy something from a vendor. Food, water, horses, tradeskill supplies etc.... destroy plat.
The majority of players introduce more plat hunting then they destroy buying things from vendors. So the Everquest economy is like the Federal government, constantly "printing" more money by killing mobs who drop plat and stuff that sells for plat to vendors.
I've spent approx 5 million, probably closer to 7, on vendors during PoP. Considering i'm just one person, it looks pretty suspect for the economy to increase it's platinum total by about 2000% in a year.
(Hint, this money wasn't exactly being deleted because of coffins and peridots)
Edited, Wed Feb 11 09:11:14 2004 by Calimyr
Quote:
Your very FIRST post contains the line:
Like the items ever got out of the guild anyway f*cking dolt!
Who flamed who first???
Man I hope you aren't anything more than a deck swabby. Saints preserve us all if you get behind the sights of a gun and start shooting before you figure out who the enemy is or if there is an enemy.
If you do get into battle, don't die for your country, make the other guys die for theirs.
Like the items ever got out of the guild anyway f*cking dolt!
Who flamed who first???
Man I hope you aren't anything more than a deck swabby. Saints preserve us all if you get behind the sights of a gun and start shooting before you figure out who the enemy is or if there is an enemy.
If you do get into battle, don't die for your country, make the other guys die for theirs.
Umm HELLO??? anyone home?? i hear echo's in here must be the lack of grey matter, you didn't post the quote Yosa did you chimp, so how could i be flaming you?? Your arguements have more holes in it than a teabag.
36 posts
Quote:
Umm HELLO??? anyone home?? i hear echo's in here must be the lack of grey matter, you didn't post the quote Yosa did you chimp, so how could i be flaming you?? Your arguements have more holes in it than a teabag.
----------------------------
Jarkeld Hammerhiem
Knight of the 59th sphere
Druzzil Ro server
I support his argument.
The enemy of my friend is my enemy.
Be carefull when you cuss at people, others may take offense as well. If you can't take the heat from all of them, don't cuss.
Edited, Wed Feb 11 17:37:49 2004 by Taarakian
13 posts
I can happily say that I have never bought plat... have been playing since last August... and have bought all my gear myself... Remember people, that this is merely a game... (But to some people it's their life... so they have to ruin it for everyone else) I'm still using Crustacean Shell Armor (some pieces) at 51... because prices are so high, and the plat you get from leveling... is nothing... unless you want to continue to buy minor upgrades to your gear. That's why people farming things is so important... (I know I would if I was a class that could)...
Remember... EverQuest is just a game... and games are meant to be fun... (and those of you who play 16-20 hours a day... I really pity you...)
Anyway... just my 2 cents (if it really matters)
Have a laugh on me... My Gear
Edited, Thu Feb 12 03:03:47 2004 by MegadanMcDan
Remember... EverQuest is just a game... and games are meant to be fun... (and those of you who play 16-20 hours a day... I really pity you...)
Anyway... just my 2 cents (if it really matters)
Have a laugh on me... My Gear
Edited, Thu Feb 12 03:03:47 2004 by MegadanMcDan
Quote:
As to ornate being a "status" armor. I guess I completely disagree with your use of the term then. To me, when something is a status item, it's because you buy it purely for the acknowledgement that you have it.
Maybe we can agree that a status item is something that is more than you need bought for the purpose of making yourself apear better to others, and yourself than you did with out it.
Quote:
What's happening though is that we're seeing a lot of players who can't camp Ornate drops,
If you can't camp Ornate drops, then you really don't need ornate armor. Therefor it is a status item, it is more than you need to play the game.
Quote:
Take your hourly salary. Multiply it by 27 hours to get the LDoN armor. Now figure out how much plat you could have simply purchased from IGE instead. That's the measure we're talking about. Most people will find it much more efficient to simply buy plat rather then earn it. End result is that demand for high end items will increase, which in turn will result in those high end items going up in price.
If people are willing to use real world money to equip thier EQ toons, why should they complain how much real world money they have to spend to get the items they want?
The high cost of ornate does one thing, it makes ornate more expensive. If someone does not want to spend the plat (weatehr bought or earned) for Ornate, they are not prevented from obtainig equlivent equipment. They can go camp the drops, they can go on raids, they can do LDoN, all of this will get them the good equipment they want.
The only ones crying about the cost of highend items, or any items are those who want to have everything all the time.
If they are willing to spend the in game time they can do very well with LDoN equipemnt. If they get into raiding they can obtain even better items. However if they are not willing and able to do these things they have no right to compalin that they now have to pay more for thier instant gratification.
Quote:
Provide names of items that are sold in the bazaar that are wholly made from NPC purchased components that have any desireability please (other than the aforementioned prismatic dye, and celestial essence).
heady kiolas, imbued emeralds, vial of viscous mana
theres 3 i have been been selling in the last few days. they sell pretty well in quantity. i could probably list many more if i took the time to think about it.
Edited, Thu Feb 12 12:45:49 2004 by sickseventwenty
36 posts
Thats a few more tradeskill items, and a few technically not tradeskill, but made by enchanting stuff. But lets work with them some. Although they may be producing decent value to you, I stopped selling them long ago due to the low hourly return value for the time spent tradeskilling them.
Headly Kiola=2 Kiola Sap 0.2pp + 1 water 0.01pp= 0.41pp
Imbued Emerald=1 emerald 13.7pp
Vial of Viscuos Mana=1 pearl 13.7pp + 1 poison vial 1.6pp=15.3pp
Another I remembered (kiola reminded me of my tailoring skill up days)
Paeala Bark Tannin=1 bark 1.9pp + 1 water 0.01pp=1.91pp
In the Bazaar right now we have the following amounts for sale
Heady Kiola 247 x 0.41pp = 101.27pp
Imbued Emerald 364 x 13.7pp = 4986.8pp
Vial of Viscuos Mana 303 x 15.3pp = 4635.9pp
Paeala Bark Tanin 174 x 1.9pp = 330.6pp
Now, lets assume theses traders each have a 100 percent daily turnover (they sell out and replace stock completely) each day.
What would the weekly destruction of platinum be?
(101.27 + 4986.9 + 4635.9 + 330.6) x 7 = 70382.69
Platinum pumped into economy normal game play
2000 x 50 x 168 = 16800000
This activity is removing 0.42162% of the plat going into the economy thru normal game play. Still insignificant enough that inflation is going to run rampant. Please provide a saleable item or items that are wholly made from npc purchased components that would have a significant effect on removing platinum from the game.
Headly Kiola=2 Kiola Sap 0.2pp + 1 water 0.01pp= 0.41pp
Imbued Emerald=1 emerald 13.7pp
Vial of Viscuos Mana=1 pearl 13.7pp + 1 poison vial 1.6pp=15.3pp
Another I remembered (kiola reminded me of my tailoring skill up days)
Paeala Bark Tannin=1 bark 1.9pp + 1 water 0.01pp=1.91pp
In the Bazaar right now we have the following amounts for sale
Heady Kiola 247 x 0.41pp = 101.27pp
Imbued Emerald 364 x 13.7pp = 4986.8pp
Vial of Viscuos Mana 303 x 15.3pp = 4635.9pp
Paeala Bark Tanin 174 x 1.9pp = 330.6pp
Now, lets assume theses traders each have a 100 percent daily turnover (they sell out and replace stock completely) each day.
What would the weekly destruction of platinum be?
(101.27 + 4986.9 + 4635.9 + 330.6) x 7 = 70382.69
Platinum pumped into economy normal game play
2000 x 50 x 168 = 16800000
This activity is removing 0.42162% of the plat going into the economy thru normal game play. Still insignificant enough that inflation is going to run rampant. Please provide a saleable item or items that are wholly made from npc purchased components that would have a significant effect on removing platinum from the game.
Quote:
Platinum pumped into economy normal game play
2000 x 50 x 168 = 16800000
2000 x 50 x 168 = 16800000
while i am not disagreeing with your general arguement i think you figures are more than a little off.
2000 people for 6 hours per day maybe <peak us time> i play GMT and i can assure you that if you do who all 65 at 12 noon gmt there is less than 10 poepl on for each class, with far less maybe 1 or 2 per level <per class> for the other 50-64 crew and you are lucky to find 6 people total to make a LDoN group outside bazaar and playing if you are below 50.
besides even if there are 2000 take out the 500 in bazaar and 120 in Pok/PoT at peak time plus those LFG, in PoP zones <which aren't know for uber pp thats for sure. especially tier 1.> and you are more likely to have 1000 people if that earning pp at the rate you are talking about.
I do agree somewhat with the abundance of player generated pp in the system having an effect on Bazaar prices but it doesn't explain the overnight jump that occured before xmas. that saw prices on a range of item double if not triple within a week
I.E. i was looking to buy a Sebsidian berserker cloak which retailed at 20-25k dec 03 it is now 50k at best.
there has to be more to the price increase than a mere player generated issue.
18 posts
Deeltor wrote:
"People who use their own money to buy things in a virtual world just makes me wonder if they realize its just a game."
So, I guess you don't use real life money to pay for a virtual character "in a virtual world"?? The fact is that everyone who plays EQ pays real money to buy things in a virtual world. No you don't own it, SOE does. But that doesn't change the fact that if you subscribe to EQ, you are paying real money for something that only exists in a virtual world.
"People who use their own money to buy things in a virtual world just makes me wonder if they realize its just a game."
So, I guess you don't use real life money to pay for a virtual character "in a virtual world"?? The fact is that everyone who plays EQ pays real money to buy things in a virtual world. No you don't own it, SOE does. But that doesn't change the fact that if you subscribe to EQ, you are paying real money for something that only exists in a virtual world.
Yosa wrote:
Maybe we can agree that a status item is something that is more than you need bought for the purpose of making yourself apear better to others, and yourself than you did with out it.
Ok. I can agree with that definition.
Quote:
If you can't camp Ornate drops, then you really don't need ornate armor. Therefor it is a status item, it is more than you need to play the game.
Ok. You're missing the point. You said that Ornate was a status item. You implied that it was a status item for *everyone*, not just the unguiled guy who bought it in the bazaar.
The fact is that it's pretty nice armor for probably 95% of the entire game population. An increase in AC/HP is never just "status" no matter what you are doing. If I'm hunting mobs in KC, having Ornate will make me more capable of doing so then not having it. Upgrading from Kunark class armor to Ornate will always result in an increase in the character's ability to do stuff in the game, regardless of what stuff they are doing.
In fact, if we're going to judge status value by how much the armor increases a character's capabilities, then the guy who's never raided a day in his life, and doesn't have PoP boss drops, or Velious class quest armor, or VT gear, is gaining more by buying Ornate then the guy with that aforementioned gear gaining it in a raid.
Sure. The low level guy probably doesn't "need" it, but to him that doesn't matter. He "wants" it because it makes his charater more powerful. I agree that that's purely about status, but there are a lot of players in EQ who care more about the status of their gear then the status of their accomplishments.
Also. Just because you *can* camp Ornate, does not mean you are going to get the right drops you need in the right proportions to equip all the classes that want/need them in your guild. No drop rate *ever* matches need perfectly. Also, no guild is going to sit around waiting for everyone to get Ornate (or equivalent) before moving on. Thus, there is a very real reason for folks capable of being able to camp Ornate to want to buy the occasional piece just to fill out their gear slots.
Raiding isn't magic. You don't automatically get every slot filled at each level. In fact, it never works out that way. Not ever. With rare exceptions (very top level guilds who've run out of content), no one in a raiding guild ever feels he's got every slot filled with the gear he can get raiding. It just never happens. There are always slots you can improve. If you can buy something to fill those slots, that's a great thing.
It's a matter of time. Sure, I *could* raid for and get that particular Ornate mold that I need. But that might take another 10 raids before getting it. Or I could save up some cash and buy it. When all we had to do was compete with folks who worked the bazaar and tradeskills to make cash, this was reasonable. With IGE selling anyone plat, that means that us raiders really can't afford to buy those slot filling pieces. They're just too expensive. No way am I dumping 100k+ just for a single piece of Ornate. It's just not worth it (and remember, it's going to be less of an upgrade for me then a non-raider buying it with plat from IGE). The dynamic is changed dramatically against the mid-high level raider.
King Nobby wrote:
More words please
36 posts
Tarv wrote
I do agree somewhat with the abundance of player generated pp in the system having an effect on Bazaar prices but it doesn't explain the overnight jump that occured before xmas. that saw prices on a range of item double if not triple within a week
I wrote
A. Players produce plat by
1. Normal game play
2. Cheats (dups, exploits)
3. Macroing
B. Plat is rarely destroyed
Result - inflation
Since 1 is never going to stop, inflation is always going to be a problem for the desireable gear. 2 and 3 are stopped as fast as SOE can discover them and program fixes, they are only factors in the short term and can produce spikes in the inflation curve but will not in and of themselves cause it nor will the inflation slow down or stop when they are stopped, since 1 is still in play.
One of those "spikes" from 2 and/or 3.
Lacking exact numbers of server populations on a sampled basis from thruout the day, I have to extrapolate as best as can be done useing what I can find published by soe. If anyone can provide more accurate numbers or a better extrapolation, we can use those numbers, and as you say, it will still show a general overabundance of player generated plat compared to waht players destroy.
Edited, Thu Feb 12 21:09:15 2004 by Taarakian
Quote:
I do agree somewhat with the abundance of player generated pp in the system having an effect on Bazaar prices but it doesn't explain the overnight jump that occured before xmas. that saw prices on a range of item double if not triple within a week
I wrote
Quote:
A. Players produce plat by
1. Normal game play
2. Cheats (dups, exploits)
3. Macroing
B. Plat is rarely destroyed
Result - inflation
Since 1 is never going to stop, inflation is always going to be a problem for the desireable gear. 2 and 3 are stopped as fast as SOE can discover them and program fixes, they are only factors in the short term and can produce spikes in the inflation curve but will not in and of themselves cause it nor will the inflation slow down or stop when they are stopped, since 1 is still in play.
One of those "spikes" from 2 and/or 3.
Lacking exact numbers of server populations on a sampled basis from thruout the day, I have to extrapolate as best as can be done useing what I can find published by soe. If anyone can provide more accurate numbers or a better extrapolation, we can use those numbers, and as you say, it will still show a general overabundance of player generated plat compared to waht players destroy.
Edited, Thu Feb 12 21:09:15 2004 by Taarakian
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