This post was strangely given an "awful" rating, I'm curious as to why so want to repost it and explain in more depth that Pakastan had done NOTHING to warrent this attack yesterday. That they had in fact offered to assist the US in bringing the responsible parties to justice.

"Last night, in my home town in North Dakota, I strangely found a channel that was doing the morning BBC news in England.

There was an interview with the Isreali Prime Minister questioning his movement into Palastinian lands with military forces yesterday. They moved 3 tanks and numerous troops into a couple Palastinian towns, in the processess killing 3 people. One of those was a 9 year old little girl.

When asked why now? Was it becuase nobody was looking at them, the response was so vague that I KNEW the Prime Minister was lieing. He claimed that they were only doing what Bush recommended, going after the terrorists where they form (by this I got the impression he meant breed).

After continued pressured questions by the british media person the Prime Minister backtracked and said that what they were doing had nothing to do with the rest of the world and when asked why he claimed they were only doing what Bush said must be done, he claimed that was not what he meant.



And so it begins, yet another young life gone, yet another reason to blame the US for another countries actions, yet more unnecessary violence. I would almost call the actions of Isreal yesterday a terrorist action. It was designed to create terror and anger in the innocent. They had no target, they had nobody they were going after, they were claiming only that they were going after terrorisism where it starts."

Fenra of Misty

P.S.-Anon, I am saddened by your loss, nothing anybody can say can make it better, we WILL find and punish those responsible, have no doubt of that.

I am a paramedic in Florida. I look at the video seeing FDNY's firefighters and paramedics doing everything they can to aid people and rescue those trapped and I feel an enormous sense of pride to know I serve my fellow man and wish I could be there in their hour of need. More videos showing crushed fire engines, ladder trucks, ambulances and police cars just makes my blood run cold. To have lost so many brothers and sisters in the fire service just makes me wonder what purpose there is behind these cowardly acts of terrorism. I pray that we have the power to put the end to these and all terrorists very soon. I typically frown on the idea of invading foreign countries but if they are harboring these cowards I hope we do everything in our power to end the possiblity of more innocent lives being affected.

Anyone harassing/attacking muslims in America is completely retarded and should be shot (unless of course they were of the few who were cheering about our loss). Thanks for your time.

They always say that you attract more flies with honey than vinegar. I myself wonder why you would want to attract flies in the first place. We can sit here in our bubbles of self-righteousness and righteous indignation, but it will do nothing. Bubbles do nothing to bring men together, only to divide us.
So, you tell me that America is to blame for what happened on Tuesday? Let me put this before you, then. I have a very close friend who was raped when she was a teenage. I myself suffered sexual abuse as a young child. Tell me, who is to blame for that? Was she to blame? Was she too pretty? Did she smile too much at the boy? Did she talk to him too long? Tell me, was I too trusting? Did I, as a mere child, send out the wrong signals? I will paraphrase the words of another victim of rape, whom I am sure many of you know of: Tori Amos. Just because she wore a tiny red dress, did that give that man the right to rape her?
Do not talk to me about how the victim of an atrocity, be it abuse, rape, or terrorism, is to blame for it. You do nothing but perpetuate the hatred that caused this act. You do nothing but justify the act to the rest of the world. Someone told Andnay that his country might be next, and he thought this was proposterous. But it might. Because when we blame victims in ANY attrocity, we open the door for that attrocity to be performed again on others. And so it might strike is country, or yours, and as we continue to blame the victims, eventually we will not care about it because they had it coming to them.
And THAT is truly monsterous. Am I wrong in saying that? Pah! Tell you what. Go around to college campuses. Talk to the boys there. I mean sit down, talk one on one. Get them to trust you enough to talk straight. You will find alot of them who would never force or trick a woman into having sex. But you will find others who will say that giving a girl 'rufies' so that she can't say or is knocked out is no big deal. They just don't see it as wrong. How do I know? Because it happens. And because these boys are amazed that they should get in trouble for it. But they think it because it is ingrained from them. Ladies and gentlemen, it has not been but a few generations since women, when raped, were forced by thier families to MARRY the rapist, especially if a child came of it. My own great-grand mother was a victim of THAT particular one. These thoughts follow generations down. It has only been a few decades that we have REALLY paid attention to how we treat victims of such crimes, and we are STILL having to fight that very attitude.
If you sit here and start blaming the victims of atrocities, then you do nothing but perpetuate the attitude that some people just "ask for it", so it's "ok". And it will keep happening and that attitude will grow, and eventually it will happen to you, and no one will care.
Don't you get it? Atrocities happen all the time. And maybe we have already stopped caring about them. Maybe we don't weep enough for innocent victims on BOTH sides of conflicts. I mean, is it possible for us to war with an aggressor and still show compassion when thier innocents suffer?
My friends, that is what differences are for. That is why we are a people, all of us, of extremes. Some of us have talked about just Nuking the people responsible. Others have said no, that war does not solve anything and only innocents will suffer. Others have taken a mid-road, saying that what we should do is seek out and assassinate specific individuals.
We can argue all day the best way to handle this situation. I tell you that there is no single best way.
Think a moment about when we are playing evercrack (momentary humor, now back to serious). What groups work best? Is it a group of all tanks? All casters? All healers? What are you going to do if everyone in a group are druids or chanters? Aren't the best groups made up of different classes? A healer, maybe one back up, a caster, a dotter/rooter of some kind, A tank or two, a mezzer, etc?
It was said, and they are right. We can't easily deal with terrorists. It is a way of life to them. I can still remember the pictures of children in, was it Dublin. It was long ago, and I don't remember it clearly, but I remember the impact of it. These terrorists are like that (and this is the only comparison I will make to the IRA) in that many of them have been taught and train since childhood. who knows, some involved might be children. And it is not just our actions globally they are against. It is much more. It has to be, otherwise, why attack non-military targets? To these people, simply dying will only solidify thier movement.
So, perhaps, we should let it soldify ours. Already we have come together as a nation. Let it continue. Why argue about what course to take. Let's see how we can use all of those views together. Those who say peace is the way, look to all innocents with compassion. Those who demand justice, demand it. And those who seek a median to obtain justice and still not bring the death of other innocents, let those two views guide you along. There is a saying that all things are good in moderation, including moderation. What that means is we need the extreme views as much as we need moderates. It is the extreme that keeps us alive and vital and alert and seeking change. It keeps us from stagnating.
Whatever this nation's solution is to these attacks, we, as American people should stand together and stand behind our leaders. We don't have to like them. But right now, they need us as much as we need them. They need to hear us. Talk to your congressmen. Make your voice heard. And encourage them to work together, to integrate the varied ideas into a solution that will be a result of a unified nation.
To the rest of the world. I implore you to stand beside us. To blame us will only divide us. We need to present a unified front. Not just because of the thousands who have died. But because if we do not, thousands more will die. Who will it be next? If the terrorists of the world understand that we, as a world, will not tolerate or excuse thier actions, then maybe, MAYBE we can keep this from happening. MAYBE we can come up with a way to handle it that will really strike at it and dissuade future acts of terrorism. yes, they do have a weakness. our solidarity is one of them. Think of horror movies, how the fear always divides the hapless co-stars. That is what terrorism tries to do, among other things. If we don't let it divide us, then it doesn't win. We need to be unified on our view of terrorism, that it is not the target that is to blame, but the terrorists. Not just for the thousands who died tuesday, or in the past years, but for the sake of thousands in the future.
Again, to all of you who lost a loved one, or fear still for the life of a loved one, my heart goes out to you. I pray that you will somehow find some comfort in this time for your pain and that you will find peace to deal with that pain, be it in God/Diety/or justice.

I live in New York City, and am old enough to remember the building of the twin towers of the World Trade Center. I recall the towers going up slowly - and marking their progress every time my parents drove us on one of the many highways that offer a view. I drove home Tuesday from a job I have part-time on Long Island, watching with horror the column of smoke that could be seen from 40 miles away and that was drifting across the sky. I am fortunate in that no one I know directly was killed or is missing, but I am now learning of friends of friends and relatives of friends that are still unaccounted for in this unspeakable act. I am filled with a combination of profound loss and incredible rage, and also great pride in the way my city and country has stepped up and pulled together. I spent hours trying to get through to a blood donation, because I have a highly desirable blood type - by the time I got through, they told me that they already had so many people donating that they didn't need me yet - I gave them my number to call. I fear that their statement indicates the number of wounded is low - that too many were beyond help.

This is not an act of war. Acts of war are waged in the open, by people who will stand up and state their goals, and who act against military 'targets.' This is a purely criminal act of monstrous proportions. As such, anyone harboring or aiding the criminals in any way is as guilty of the crime as the perpetrators themselves are.

Comparing this action to actions taken by the United States in the throes of World War II, with open and obvious declarations of war in place, and with both sides having clear, publicly avowed military objectives demonstrates pure unadorned hatred for the United States and a desire for us to 'get what's coming to us.'

Equating this action with starvation of children around the world also demonstrates ignorance, or a willful blindness, or something equally ungenuine. Every famine in the history of the world can be traced to the actions and policy of those in charge. An Indian economist won a Nobel Prize in 1999 (if memory serves) for demonstrating this point. Has there ever been a famine in the United States? The world's agricultural technology is capable of feeding 10 times the world's current population, yet we still have starvation. Wonder why? Because starving people are easily controlled.

It has been demonstrated time and again that the actions against Hiroshima and Nagasaki served to not only dramatically shorten the Pacific War, but to reduce the overall death toll by a huge number. These actions, horrid though they were, were undertaken in the context of an on-going WAR between two clearly identifiable enemies.

To the Austrian gentleman whose posts indicate a desire for the US to 'not be involved' - can you honestly look at yourself in the mirror and say that you would have the freedom to express these opinions had the US remained uninvolved in world affairs over the last century? If you are so interested in isolationism, then you shouldn't give a rat's *** what we do - just enjoy your comfy little lifestyle and ignore the fact that we're the ones who made it possible. Yes, us, the United States. All your posts do is indicate that you are a mean-spirited, jealous, and ignorant person. Your willingness to revel in the notion that americans 'got theirs' indicates that you are heartless and soulless. Come to this country and recognize the pain and horror we feel when we see innocents dying - anywhere in the world. You will not see me exulting in a bomb killing civilians - no matter where or by whom.

How much do you relish saying that we 'got our balls kicked?' Does that make you happy? Do you wish more harm upon us? Despite your inflammatory words, I wish no harm upon you. I do wish you'd get your head out of your ***, though.

I could easily continue to refute the claptrap I've read on this board - nonsense obviously fed to those who posted it by the sheltered intellectual elitists who sit idly by with too much free time and too much resentment for those who have worked for all they have. My parents came to the US from Greece in the 1960s with $200 in their pockets, worked hard, and raised two sons in a happy and comfortable life.

What happened in New York and Washington DC on Tuesday involved no stated or implied military objective. Its goal was to murder United States citizens, demoralize the United States and the western world (I ask you where Western peace and prosperity would be without the direct military actions of the United States in the last century, and dare you to tell me that we haven't saved the western world's bacon several times over), and to motivate and embolden the fanatics of the terrorist communities.

The old nonsense about killing them doing no good is appearing again. The terrorist organization needs no more heroes. We are so used to thinking in Western ways here that we believe others require the same stimuli that we do. We have had a horror rammed down our throats - this horror has pushed us over the 'line' past proportional responses and restraint, and down the slope to war. Believe you me, the people who did this require no such motivation. Their leaders tell them that they will enter the bliss of heaven for doing these things, and they believe this more deeply than a 'civilized Westerner' could ever believe anything. No martyr figures are needed.

Negotiations and measured responses have been attempted for decades. Through all this, terrorist organizations have been getting smarter, stronger, more organized, and wealthier. In my humble opinion, this action demands no less than a ten-fold or hundred-fold response. Just as the fear of a massive, annihilating response held peace during the Cold War, a demonstration of massive, annihilating proportions will reestablish peace and security. Peace through fear, unfortunately, but peace. Utterly destroy the machine, and it will not be available to be used against you in the future.

People who post here as 'disinterested' third parties - if your beliefs are that we shouldn't be involved in world affairs, those beliefs should apply doubly to yourselves. Keep your heads in the sand, and let us do what we feel we should do.

We have gone too far down the road of appeasement. It is time we demonstrate again, as we did in World War II, the resolve, resourcefulness, and might of the United States and all it stands for. Making peace with those who do not want peace is impossible. Peace is only possible when both sides want peace, and are willing to discuss peace. When one side wants peace, but the other side doesn't, there are two options, war or surrender. Guess which one I vote for.

I hope they all suffer eternal damnation - that their souls burn forever in hell.

Live from New York City.

I understand where the hate of the USA in the arabic countries come from, USA has persistantly aided one of two evils in the arabic countries (Israel) for none other reason than that they have more to gain from Israel (Also maybe the worst of the countries, Saudi Arabia, has little to nothing to fear from USA also because USA has interests in that country).

The USA has also the selfappointed role (and mostly unwanted) of some moral police worldwide that I can't agree with...

The USA's politics in these countries however has nothing to do with the maybe tens of thousands that lost their lives and the lots greater number of americans that lost a friend, relative or family member 2 days ago..

While I understand where the hate comes from I will never understand why some cowardly ******* would use American citizens (citizens are NOT the regim) as a weapon to destroy other citizens. I cried too when I saw these news and I am not even american. For the first time I WANT the USA to strike and strike HARD on those forces behind his cowardly and utterly unhuman attack on the worlds most successful nation throughout time and history of this world and I hope they use this fact to seek out these a-holes and anyone protecting them.

I suffer with you.

One other thing I'd like to mention is this. 200+ years ago there were colonies fighting for their very lives. They fought against those that would oppress them and they fought against the rules. They threw honor to the wind and used tactics that would allow them to win, at whatever cost against a nation that fought to control them.

The role's have been reversed. This time america is the "oppressing nation" and we are being fought with any tactics can be used to win.

So do we use superior numbers and tactics to overwhelm our adversaries? It certainly didn't work to well for the brit's back then, and I don't believe it will help us now.

It's time for us to get our heads out of our asses and realize that we have someone with some possible intelligence here. We are not dealing with a sadam hussein or fidel castro. We are dealing now with Zealots who are on a mission from 'god'. People who will stop at nothing for what they believe in, just as the colonies did oh so long ago.

This is not a battle that will be won with brute force. This is a time that our military leaders have to stop thinking about who we're bombing and what country has oil 'so lets not **** them off' and start thinking about how we are going to find this man, and make an example of him.

Shaklor Soulraizer
53rd vicar
Innoruuk Server

I grieve for the thousands of lives snuffed out in a moment of pure evil, yet I would caution America to remain true to its principals and not give in to hatred. Justice must be done, and the men behind the attack must be found. This WILL take time, but it is better to strike the RIGHT targets later, than to strike at the first target that presents itself, only to find later that it was wrong.

If, as seems likely now, Osama bin Laden is the perpetrator of this, pressure will be brought to bear on his Taleban "hosts" to give him up. Oh, and bombing Afghanistan will achieve very little - that country is mostly rubble already thanks to two decades of battles against the USSR, and a bloody civil war.

As for the scenes of Palestinians in Jerusalem celebrating, however photogenic such scenes are, that was not the view of the majority of Palestinians - all news agencies report the West Bank region remained in a quiet and somber mood throughout the period. Do not be swayed into anger just because some very bitter, angry people find joy in the death of innocents.

I'm no history expert, but it seems the last time a single location/region was responsible for so much worldwide anguish was Germany and the two world wars (don't misunderstand me, I like Germany, I'm merely pointing out that certain events did occur).

In that case the end result was that the major powers at that time decided enough was enough and split the country in two and took stewardship to protect world peace. Later, when the world was confident that peace would hold, the walls came down.

The same paradigm could concievably be seen in the mid-east in the no so distant future. The location is a hotbed of conflict and a source of pain for the whole world for thousands of years.

There will come a time, maybe today, maybe tomorrow, when the stable, powerful countries of the world will decide that endless killing will no longer be allowed.

Some countries are forward looking. They strive to find advances and improve life and discover.

Some countries are caught up in the past, old hatreds, endless wars.

Please note the difference between these two types of countries when it comes to freedom, personal rights, quality of life, economic power, and national power.

The forward looking countries have the power to put an end to the constant war and suffering that the backwards looking countries maintain. The countries that look forward will only be the victims of those that look backwards for as long as it is easier to get by than to put an end to it.

I think that line has been crossed.

I got about half way down the first page of this forum, and gave up reading.

listen to yourselves, instead of focusing on finding and punishing those responsible for Tuesdays Atrocities, you war (all be it with words) on each other.

Remember the saying "United we stand, divided we fall"

For the americans out there who seem to think that the USA is the only country in the world that counts, Think again, Without the trade of countries other than the USA your economy would be in ruins.

For those not of american nationality, who seam to think that America deserved this assault, NO NATION DISERVES SUCH A BARBARIC ATTACK.

For those who seam to feel that america is the only country that has any right to feel or do anything, dont forget that there were nationals of many other countries on those planes, there were members of other nations in those buildings. It wasnt only Americans that died.

Take note of the Finantial affects of Tuesdays tragedy, world markets are still falling, this affects not just america, this afects the world.

And the world needs to work together, to end this kind of barbarism once and for all.

People have been quick to label this as a fight between Good and Evil when it is in fact more like Good vs 'Good'.
Let me explain before people start flaming, I am not in anyway supporting what happened, I am a Brit with friends in the states and I have spent the last few days trying to find out if they are ok (all seem to be, thank god).
We (Western world) consider ourselves the good guys and the people that did this as Evil whereas the people that did this believe with all their heart that they are the good guys and that the western world is evil. It is totally a matter of which view point you see it from.
This would explain the scenes of people celebrating the event and shows why, no matter how hard you try, you will never be able to wipe terrorism from the world. It's a question of religion for the perpetrators of this crime. This is not like **** Germany where they were trying to conquer land and countries by invasion, they believe they are doing gods work and they are holy warriors against an evil force. You will never be able to explain anything different to a religious zealot. More and more militant muslim forces are appearing and apologies to those muslims that denounced this action but isn't their philosphy one of trying to achieve a islamic/muslim world by whatever means needed? (correct me if I am wrong but I don't think I am).
It is a situation that could rapidly spiral out of control. If the US attack/declare war on one of the muslim states then you can bet that the others will side with them because they are fellow muslims.
A response is needed but it needs to be a calm, measured response because anything else could be disastrous.
To win this you need to be a surgeon and not a butcher.

Bluff.
Fennin Ro.

(PS That last line of mine was not intended as an insult or slight to anyone, just as an example of method to use. Trouble with message boards is that it's so easy to read the wrong inflection into words)

We will avene those dead and dieng when we find out who did this i hope we make them suffer we should take down the whole country we have the man power the anger now he weapons and most fo all the hydrogen bomb abomb and liquid napalm level that country to avenge those dead or injured to show the AMERICA will not stand for terrorist!

Brief history lesson.

Remember the Marine Corps hymn? "From the halls of Monteczuma, to the shores of Tripoli..." Follow along if you know the words.

What shores of Tripoli? Well, that's Tripoli, Libya. A city in Libya. What were US marines doing in Libya? It was America's first war after independence.

The conflict was with the Barbary pirates. The north coast of Africa was refered to as the Barbary coast at that time. Various pirate bands were based along the shores there and were pirating US flag merchant vessels on the high seas. This presented a grave threat to America economicly and also militarily as we dared not appear weak in front of European powers that still wanted to contest control of North America.

These pirates did not represent any one nation-state and the countries from which they operated denied any responsibility. Sound familiar? The United States was very weak militarily and we actually paid a ransom to be left alone as a stalling measure so we could build up some forces. The US Navy finally sent a squadron with Marines on board and in a series of fights and sieges, America defeated this threat. It was our first war.

We didn't ask for anyone's help, or anyone's for permission. We simply went and eliminated the threat. We came, we saw, we kicked some ***. I suggest we do the same thing again.