New Group Bonuses Being Tested

Check out today's patch message for the test server. With today's patch, there is a new group experience bonus being tried out. This will significantly change how group experience works in Everquest. Here is the description provided in the patch message: May 27th, 2003 ------------------------- ** Experience System Change - Grouping ** We've made some improvements to the way experience is rewarded in all of EverQuest. At its core, the idea is to positively reinforce grouping. There should never be any penalty to adding "that sixth person over there," whatever class they may be, into your group. That is exactly the type of behavior that should be rewarded. In a massively multi-player game, any mechanic that penalizes those who group is one that we need to take a serious look at. While there are definite benefits to forming "well balanced" groups in terms of damage, tanking, healing, and support, there shouldn't be an active penalty to those who cannot find groups of "optimal" balance. As it stands in EverQuest, groups gain a 2% to 20% experience bonus, which we refer to as the "group bonus", for having two to six members. In practice, however, this has never been much of a bonus, even in the case of a full group, given that the experience was already being divided six ways. In the past, we had also attempted to reward people for adventuring in the more challenging Planes of Power zones by making those zones give a better rate of experience. As of this update, groups now gain 20% to 80% "group bonus" experience for having two to five members. Full, six-person, groups now see an additional bonus. Their experience is only divided five ways, yet they still gain the 80% "group bonus." For those who think in terms of pie charts, it amounts to a larger piece of a larger pie. Accordingly, the bonus inherent to Planes of Power zones will be decreased slightly. However, as long as person is grouped with at least one other, they will see an improvement in experience gain over the old system. The one down side to the new system is that there will be a slight decrease in experience for those who do not group, and only for those who do so in Planes of Power zones. We realize that we are, essentially, "manufacturing" a new type of experience after a kill. As players, we also understand it is the people who spend time in full groups who have to deal with the most interruptions and setup time caused by organizing the extra people. It simply makes sense to reward that extra time, especially if it means bringing more people together. After all, that's the whole point. We look forward to seeing how these changes play out on Test Server. ** Experience System Change - Level 60+ ** In addition to the above changes, we have increased the range of NPC levels that give a person experience after they reach level 60. The "blue to 65" range has been increased as far as level 50, with the "light blue" range extending to level 45. The best benefits, however, are still for fighting things around and above your level. The world of EverQuest, at this point in its history, is truly immense and full of the best and most interesting content and visuals out there. Ideally, when a person logs on they should have a wide array of places in which to adventure. The addition of new content shouldn't entirely obsolete what already exists. Hopefully these changes will once again make that the case. - The EverQuest Development Team

Comments

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Darke
# May 28 2003 at 1:32 PM Rating: Default
I got a totally different message here that people should look at. I think everyone knows that Verant is releasing a new expansion. Why doesn't Verant fix what they have already before releasing more bugged out crap? And as far as this EXP thing...same deal. Why don't they fix broken quests.....crashes...1018 and all that other shizz before messing with stuff like this? A new expansion every 6 months or so? I already pay them 12.95 a month. Now they want 30 bucks every six months or so for a bugged out expansion. They need to fix what they have before forcing people to buy another expansion. I say forced...because without PoP you couldn't go anywhere without a port...so I was forced to buy it. Is there anyone else out there that thinks the same way I do? Shouldn't they fix the crap they have already spewed before spewing more? Anyone want to start a petition with me? We should get what we are paying for...NOT what they want.
RE: Darke
# May 28 2003 at 2:16 PM Rating: Decent
Look man again. Those of you who say "I couldn't get anywhere before PoP" you're all just lazy. How about you take the senic route for once and ya might meet some new people on the way. And if you need to get someplace fast BUY a port. I dislike these people who always want the fastest best most efficent way while loosing the true secondary purpose of the game. TO HAVE FUN. I personally will run somewhere rather than use PoP. Stop whinning because the exp isn't he best you're not getting the most loot or you wont join a group because there's not a friggen cleric in it. This change is for the benifit of those who enjoy grouping nothing more.

Spiritling 55 druid
Spiriter 55 ranger
Ayonae Ro
NEVER FEAR! SPIRIT IS HERE!!!
RE: Darke
# May 28 2003 at 2:53 PM Rating: Default
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215 posts
The problem is this: It doesn't just benefit players who group, it penalizes anyone who doesn't think the way SoE wants them to. I agree with you on the PoP thing (and the LoY thing, before anyone brings it up)...SoE didn't FORCE anyone to buy those expansions. I bought PoP because I wanted the additional content. I bought LoY because I wanted the extra bank space. Everything else that came with those two expansions (convenient travel, cartography, armor tinting, etc.) was just a bonus. And like you, I often make a run rather than porting, just because you never know when you might see something new, even in an old world zone. I am also able to be objective about the likely effects of some of the changes that SoE is planning. In theory, I benefit from the deflagging of PoP, but I think it's a bad idea, because the encounters that generated the flags were there for a reason: To ensure that players would be able to handle the zones to which they would now have access. Personally, I think that they're removing the flags for two reasons...first, they're tired of hearing people whine about how they bought PoP but they can't access most of the content. To this, I say, 'cry me a river'...do what's necessary to prove you're ready for it, and you can access it. Second, they're tired of people complaining when they get flagged but then lose the flags because of a zone crash or LD prior to a character save.

Bear this in mind: Regardless of what they say in their press releases or patch messages, SoE NEVER makes any change in EQ solely because it benefits players. Anything that requires any effort on their part must generate income in some way, or it's not worthwhile for them. They are a company, and their motive is profit. This change is not being done simply because it appeases the people who feel slighted because their little blue bar doesn't climb as much as they think it should when they're in a group. It's being done because down the line, it generates profits. How? By forcing people to play longer to regain the exp they lose when some moron who doesn't belong in their zone trains them on his way to the ZL. By making it easier for inept players to get to a higher level, making them want to play longer (and don't everyone get ruffled here- I'm not saying that everyone is inept, nor am I saying that most players are inept...I'm saying that SOME players are inept, and don't belong in high-end situations. Know your limits). By reducing the number of variables they have to consider when creating new content, thereby reducing development costs. Don't think even for a moment that this is something that's being done because someone at SoE believes that players deserve a spiff.

-aye

Edited, Wed May 28 15:12:14 2003
RE: Darke
# May 30 2003 at 10:51 PM Rating: Default
Uhh? Are you smoking something?

you said:
SoE NEVER makes any change in EQ solely because it benefits players. Anything that requires any effort on their part must generate income in some way, or it's not worthwhile for them. They are a company, and their motive is profit.

Sony is making money no matter what level you are, they dont even care how fast you get to the next level. You pay the same monthly fee no matter what. The change just makes grouping less of a time sink. There is enough content in the game that will take you months to finish(Really you can never finish all the content. Otherwise it wouldnt be EverQuest).

The change just means for those that want to group they dont have to spend months or even years to get to the point where they can do the high end content.

As for knowing your limits you will never get better if you dont push yourself. Yeah you might die, it happens.... OH WELL!! You can die just as quick solo as you can in a group.

RE: Darke
# Jun 01 2003 at 3:39 AM Rating: Default
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215 posts
For existing subscribers who aren't on the fence about whether to continue playing, you're right, they'll just continue to make their money. For new players, however, who aren't sure whether they're going to stick with the game, and for upper-level players who were thinking about quitting because they just aren't levelling like they did when they were in Paludal in their teens, this change is a carrot that Sony is dangling in front of them so that they'll continue to pay their monthly fee.

As for this change making levelling in a group less of a time sink...If that's the objective, why not just cut to the chase and start everyone at level 65?

-aye
RE: Darke
# Jun 04 2003 at 4:00 AM Rating: Default
The main problem i have with this change is the falloing reasons. one you dont find m ein groups not because i dont liek to be in groups. you dont find me in groups becuase i am wiht my lfg tag on for 6 hrs a day 5 days a week. if im luky i get 2 groups a week and they last on average for 1 to 3 hrs, most comenly i am only asked into groups once all the clerics have gone to sleep. i am a 64th lvl druid pos pov bot and hoh asesable. its not that i rather solo its a matter of groups not neading my class. at least on my server seventh hammer. even members of my guild not have uses for us druids most fo the times unless its raid time. this change in policy to try to help incurege more grouping in my opinion is not going to make a significant increase in ppl grouping. another reason ppl stay at 5 or less in a group is its one less person to have to rool against.
im gratfull that my druid can solo, i have played alot of diferent clases in my years in eq spaning alot of servers. i have been in eq since betta testing. and i setled on teh druid for ease of getign around, nothing werse then having to rely on other ppl to get around. the ability to solo was a nice bonnus to give me something to do while i waighted for a group. and to have that afected is agrevating. never in all my years of palying eq have i thouhgt to my self o im going to solo today. i started to play this game with 30 of my friends, and i liked it mainly because of the groups with other ppl.

Hiddas Mosswalker
Seventh Hammer
Fundimental change
# May 28 2003 at 1:29 PM Rating: Decent
Not that Im flaming or anything my chars are 60s and exp worrys are a thing of the past for me..but it just seems forcing grouping. is a fundimental change to the way the game is designed.think any of the zillion quest camps in the game.(none of which give group rewards except flagging) some of which are 12 hours long ..(or more) usually have a hidy hole near for a solo player to hold or watch the camp with. and score the drop they need. quests have nothing to do with the exp issue. but it is on thin ice they tread here..
RE: Fundimental change
# May 28 2003 at 1:42 PM Rating: Excellent
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64 posts
I'm still confused as to why people think this is FORCING grouping.

Encouraging maybe, but not forcing. The only effect on soloers is you get a little less XP in POP, to bring it in line with the other zones of similar level. This does not stop soloing, just means you have to kill a few more things to get the same xp.
RE: Fundimental change
# May 28 2003 at 3:02 PM Rating: Default
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215 posts
Grouping is already encouraged, not just in one way, but in four (see below). This change forces grouping by making the exp gain so much faster in a group that players can either group, or stagnate relative to everyone else.

-aye

Edited, Wed May 28 15:20:40 2003
RE: Fundimental change
# May 28 2003 at 2:11 PM Rating: Good
Totally agree with you. Just because they change the rate at which exp is distributed does not mean in any way that this is forcing to group. The only penalty you could say they added in towards soloers is in PoP zones. As a Druid and when I feel like soloing I've always found it much easier to quad in the older school zones.. less HPs = fewer casts = more mana = less down time. To me at least this does not impact me what so ever. Before the charm nerf I tried carm kiting in PoN but still as a 55 druid I got way better exp quading in CS. The only thing this really does is just benifit those who enjoy grouping. Look at the entire perspective here people and stop being so close minded.

Spiritling 55 druid
Spiriter 55 ranger
Ayonae Ro
NEVER FEAR! SPIRIT IS HERE!!!
RE: Fundimental change
# May 28 2003 at 2:58 PM Rating: Default
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215 posts
Not true. By rewarding players who group, they indirectly penalize those who don't. Groups already enjoy substantial benefits versus solo players:

-Safety
-Efficiency
-Exp bonus just for being grouped
-Exp bonus for engaging MOBs at or above the level of the highest-level player in the group

Are we saying here that grouping is so sucky that yet ANOTHER benefit, in the form of increased exp bonus, is required to encourage it?

-aye
RE: Fundimental change
# May 29 2003 at 2:09 AM Rating: Decent
Please explain this quote "By rewarding players who group, they indirectly penalize those who don't."

That is kinda empty.

If everybody were to have the same feelings as you, nobody would create a Warrior, a character that HAS to group.

Also, you need to be carefull not to contradict yourself in your posts. In this one you state that "Safety" is a "substantial benefit" gained from grouping while in another post you state that grouping "allows underexperienced players to get themselves into situations that create needless hazard not only to themselves but to others as well..."

So which is it? Hazard or Safety?

You should look at this situation as a plus for you because it allows you so much more versitility. Now you have the option to Solo and gain the best experience possible or group and still be able to gain decent experience.

Carden Hugatree
55 Druid
Xev
Imperial Might
/comfort Bernoulli
# May 28 2003 at 1:25 PM Rating: Default
Many druids share your pain, Bernoulli.

*sneers at SOE/VI* YEAH! bring on ANOTHER nerf! I can take it! WOOHOO!

Will this change really help druids find a group?

Ariae
Druid
Hmm I wonder
# May 28 2003 at 12:58 PM Rating: Decent
Half tempted to go to test start a pally, /testbuff then delevel to 20 and go see what xp in a full group at 20 is like in Paludal?

It WAS insane, I wonder what it is like now?

Rredd
hush ya solo whinners I'm a soloer too and this is great!
# May 28 2003 at 12:58 PM Rating: Decent
I'm a druid of 55 and ranger of 55. With my druid yes I get the best exp quad kiting and with my ranger.. well soloing can be a bit tough sometimes (up until my slow procs). Being a druid I presonally love to group dispite being a good soloer. The exp bonus has been something I've long wanted to implimented. All you other soloers out there stop whinning and realize that you play a game where you have to interact with other people. If you don't like that play a game that's not MMORPG . Shesh :-P The game only continues to become more enjoyable.. and with this a repercussion would be that less people are going to want to solo therefore more groups are going to be made decreasing that ever so long of wait find a group. :-D

~Spiritling 55 druid
~Spiriter 55 ranger
"NEVER FEAR! SPIRIT IS HERE!!!
RE: hush ya solo whinners I'm a soloer too and this is great
# May 28 2003 at 1:36 PM Rating: Default
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215 posts
And again with the people who feel that the only way to interact with other people in EQ is to fight alongside them. That's not everything that the game is about...why is it so difficult for people to realize this?

-aye
RE: hush ya solo whinners I'm a soloer too and this is great
# May 28 2003 at 12:59 PM Rating: Default
Eh sorry for the bad spelling and grammer errors sigh.. :-P

Spiritling 55 druid
Spiriter 55 ranger
Ayonae Ro
NEVER FEAR! SPIRIT IS HERE!!!
Good news
# May 28 2003 at 12:43 PM Rating: Decent
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85 posts
I play a beastlord and, except when I can find a PoP group, I solo when I'm looking for xp. Grouping is almost always more fun, it's just not as rewarding. Grouping is also better for handling those pesky adds. I hope to see this change implmented soon. Can't wait to see more broadcasts from groups looking to fill their spots with anyone available.

For those complaining druids out there, quadding is not all there is in life, your skills are welcome in any group I am in. If you feel the irresistable craving to quad, just run in circles around the group, but keep those heals and dots coming.

Sharrien Dreamstalker
Savage Lord of 61 Seasons
Vazaelle
great idea
# May 28 2003 at 11:58 AM Rating: Good
For all the soloers just b/c they dropped PoP's zone exp bonus a slight bit, you'll live. They increased the range lvl 60+'s to get exp from so you can go to other places besides PoP to solo now which still have their same bonuses. PoP wasn't designed with soloing in mind. It was for groups up to raids. So the change is just all in part of PoP's designed balance.

The bonuses for groups now are awesome. Maybe people will stop thinking other classes are useless when they aren't. Every frickin' class is valueable to add to your group. It might not be the best group ever but you will still kill better and faster. I've had groups with two clerics before and we kicked plenty of ***. Extras aren't useless, even warriors. People who believe other classes are useless are just a) Dumb b) Probably no idea what that class can do c) @$$holes just b/c their ignorant on how to play EQ well.

Mugaluk of Drinal
bloodravenous
# May 28 2003 at 11:54 AM Rating: Decent
Personally being a warrior class I can't honestly say that i ever play in a non 6 person group in the pop zones period(unless we just can't find 6 people to play). It does amaze me to see people that have played for a year(alot of soloing) level 65 200+aa's(because pop came out and their gettin 4 to 8 aa's in an hour soloing).
The xp nerf on soloing doesn't matter to me since i am incapable of soloing anything that would give me xp.
For a class that even has the ability to solo you should be damn happy you are still aquiring the 95% solo experience, oh did i mention all the loot and plat you have been fortunate enough to receive from this ability?
I chose a warrior to play because it's description and relative job made sense for the class. It didn't say anywhere in the eq manual that you can play this wonderful caster class and get leveled faster, richer, and more powerfull than any other class.
My job is simple, stand there, hold agro(oh wait warrior agro was partially nerfed, you guys want to complain about your precious semi-nerf of xp? How about we heavily hinder your sole purpose i.e. agro control(unless you have one of the much higher end weapons that stun procs or slow procs every 2 seconds) Tell me one stinkin thing that has been done period in the last year for a warrior?
Better weapons? no Better gear? no Better agro control? no Better xp? no
I don't care to hear any "well at least you don't have trouble getting a group" Bull pies, everyone has close to the same problem getting groups. I have sat looking for group hours on end just like anyone else, I hit 65 to make it easier to get a group.
aa's ? not bad at 53 now(since i can't solo and get 4 or 5 an hour).
Agro control? well if i get a warning in chat a mob is being slowed and time it absolutely perfect and hit the taunt right at the miniscule second its cast then there is an 80 percent chance that even though i have been solo killing this add mob down to 20 percent life the slower may or may not get summoned to the mob and spanked.
Please Varrant give me back the only thing i had :( AGro holding, make that taunt button work the way it used to. You made all the other classes more powerful damage wise making. Can you give a little back to our only job? please?


bloodravenous
65 warrior
bristlebane
Warrior officer Black Thorn
what are they thinking???
# May 28 2003 at 11:51 AM Rating: Default
I've been playing EQ for 5 years. Started out trying to group, cause I had a ranger and I didn't like to play him the way I would have had to play him to enable him to solo. The ranger is now gathering moss, and I started classes that are effective soloers, precisely because they are effective soloers. That's the way I prefer to play. I feel that it's somewhat arrogant and insulting that the game designers are tweaking the game to be the way they think it should be played, regardless of whether some people can or want to play it that way, based on their lifestyles or individual preferences. Why on earth a company would want to marginalize ANY percentage of their customer base in times like this is beyond me. How many companies offer a product that satisfies a customer base of widely diverse demographics, but then proceeds to narrow their product so that it satisfies a smaller and smaller percentage of that base? I would like someone to provide another example of that type of corporate logic that has actually worked. It's ALWAYS the other way around - successful companies make their products MORE flexible, not less. Anyone been following Sony's stock price lately? I have: around $35 at the beginning of the year, currently trading at about $25 a share (that's a 29% slide YTD). Now granted, there's a lot more driving that decline than just their decisions on what to do with EQ, but alienating customers because their lifestyles don't mesh with the vision of a relatively small group of people that pull the strings, is just plain bizarre. Do more to encourage all types of people, with all different types of lifestyles, to start using your product; don't weed out the customers that you don't want.
RE: what are they thinking???
# May 28 2003 at 1:25 PM Rating: Decent
Interesting point about marginalization. I wonder if they have just not provided all the details. Perhaps they know what types and percentage of players solo's regularly vs. groups. Maybe their data shows that, in this case, their action actually increases focus on their core product - the second M in MMORPG. In the business world, intense focus on a product niche is a good thing. The alternative is to diffuse your product line and marginalize your offering. I don't disagree with your view - just offering an alternative.

I ask myself this question - is the experience really worse off for soloers because they lose a single digit percentage of exp per kill? Could it be, rather, that it's more rewarding because of the increased challenge?

Fearfactor,
56 Defiler, Eci

Edited, Wed May 28 13:45:39 2003
Why is everyone so upset
# May 28 2003 at 11:35 AM Rating: Good
OK, as far as I can see only 2 changes are being made.

1) XP from PoP zones is being reduced slightly.

2) People in groups will get more XP due to a change in the 'group bonus'.

This does not penalise soloers, they will get the same XP they have always got (apart from in PoP zones where the XP has been reduced for everyone). It does encourage grouping and in my opinion, with the main reason for playing a massively multiplayer online game being the interraction with other 'real' people, this can only be a good thing.

Now lets look at (my interpretation) of the maths.
For killing a mob solo you would get 1XP.
In a group of 2, you would get (1XP + 20%)/2 = 0.6XP.
In a group of 3, you would get (1XP + 40%)/3 = 0.46XP.
In a group of 4, you would get (1XP + 60%)/4 = 0.4XP.
In a group of 5, you would get (1XP + 80%)/5 = 0.36XP.
In a group of 6, you would get (1XP + 80%)/5 = 0.36XP.

Now if the soloer can quad kite (I know not all of them can) then, in the time for them to kill the 4 mobs (4XP), a group of 6 would have to kill more than 11 mobs (11 x 0.36 = 3.96XP).

If you consider this unfair then vote with your feet and find another game. For me, the game isn't just about getting XP. I enjoy exploring, doing quests, tradeskills and getting to know other people.
Druids get nerfed - AGAIN!
# May 28 2003 at 11:34 AM Rating: Default
Basicly all they did was ***** those classes that solo best, namely necro's and druids. Oh well, can't say i didn't see it coming....but hey, atleast i got most of my POP-charm-exp-whoring down before they nerfed charm and now solo exp. I actually enjoyed soloing for awhile, becuase it was for ONCE!!!(if only briefly) equitable in terms of loot and exp that i could otherwise get in a grp.
Good for VI
# May 28 2003 at 11:18 AM Rating: Default
People should be forced to group. It's the only way they will be useful in raids and in general is more fun. It also helps encourage people to play nicely and involve otehrs.

If you really like to play with yourself all the time, solo, hehe, go play Baldur's Gate or Quake53.
RE: Good for VI
# May 28 2003 at 1:58 PM Rating: Decent
Okay everyone, why are you treating this obvious attempt by a pre-teenage, anonymous poster as if they made a comment worthy of discussion??
Go add to the posts that have merit, and added some thought.


45 Mage
RE: Good for VI
# May 28 2003 at 12:45 PM Rating: Default
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215 posts
Indeed? So, the only way to be playing EQ with others is to fight alongside them? I guess we should eliminate trade skills, then. Clearly, no need for that, because the only valid way to interact with other players is in a combat situation. We probably ought to remove the bazaar, too, along with inter-player trades. And /shout...if they're in your group, they MUST be close enough for say to work, and even if not, /gs should do fine. Oh, and /ooc and /auction. Also, buffing or healing of players not in one's own group should be outlawed, punishable by account suspension.

As far as forcing players to group- Interesting. And how do you feel about the deflagging of PoP? Because the flags basically did that. It wasn't generally possible to even do the alternate flag methods without being in at least a 6-player group...you didn't necessarily have to be in a raid, but you had to be grouped.

As I've said, I agree that players need to learn to group in order to be able to play in certain areas. In the original EQ, this was handled by creating raid-level encounters (like Vox and Nagafen) that required large groups above a certain level, but no more. No need for players to be flagged to get in, no need for keys which had to be farmed over a period of days, weeks, or even months. You just needed to have enough players of sufficient level to get the job done. This philosophy continued through Kunark and Velious, expanding on the idea with things like the ring war, which not only requires a large group of players, but also a coherent strategy, as well as a significant level of commitment on the part of the player who's going to end up with the ring at the end of the war.

And then came Luclin. Rather than spending the time to design end-game encounters for Luclin that were sensible, they made Vex Thal. And the keys. And rather than keeping equipment balance, they just kept putting better and better stuff out there which resulted in the need for things like shissar bane weapons and other specialized equipment in order to make the "boss" encounters a challenge. And I think most people agree that this concept was a huge mistake. It discouraged grouping outside one's own guild (because why would guild A want anyone from guild B to have a shot at VT gear?). Though grouping in most Luclin zones actually does work out pretty well, the end game part of Luclin was/is a disaster.

Then PoP came out, which tweaked the keying idea a bit, changing it into the flagging concept. Personally, I think that's a pretty good idea. Being allowed to continue on based on encounters rather than having farmed a key is a good plan. They sort of jacked it up with the council and Plane of Time, but in general, I think PoP worked pretty well. And it encouraged grouping because that was the only realistic way to get flagged for the upper tiers.

So, I think we can all agree that grouping is good. But groups already get a bonus for being a group- efficiency, as well as being able to realistically fight yellow and red MOBs. Solo players can't generally do that (except maybe Necros), and there's an exp bonus associated with killing MOBs at or above the player's level. What I think we all need to recognize, however, is that soloing is NOT BAD. Despite the EQ gestapo's attempt to inundate us with this doctrine, it just isn't true- players who solo are every bit a part of the EQ community that players who group are...they just contribute differently.

-aye

Edited, Wed May 28 13:23:50 2003
RE: Good for VI
# May 28 2003 at 12:20 PM Rating: Decent
What about those of us who can not find a group. I play a necromancer and I find it terribly difficult to get a group. No one tends to realize just how useful we can be in groups. As for soloing, the root/dot combo is way too mana ineffecient to be worthwhile, and most of my other spots are having pathing changes so fear kiting is no longer effective. It's not that people don't want groups, it's that groups don't want people...

Maldorn
Heretic on Saryrn
RE: Good for VI
# May 28 2003 at 1:39 PM Rating: Decent
Now THAT is an interesting comment - "...those of us who can not find a group....It's not that people don't want groups, it's that groups don't want people."

I too play a necro and have found the view of the necro as a "support" contingent as Sony put it leaves the class type outside the family of 'optimal' group structure. Given that, I see two possible non-exclusive views -

1) the 'huge advantage' necros have supposedly had because they can solo mobs others cannot has been offset by our lack of desirability in groups

2) this change has the potential to make group balance less necessary and therefore necros more readily accepted as group members

I actually agree with the comment but not because I'm whining (no implication there) but because I think sony can do more to encourage class type utility. Each class type should have a group-desirable grouping ability that no other has thereby reducing the chance that any one class type can be viewed as dispensible and, thus is encouraged to solo not because of experience sharing "penalties"...but because you can continue advancement at all. Now, before you flame the hell out of me, don't mistake what I'm saying to mean that necros don't have group-desirable abilities. What I mean is that the groups feel other class types have more desirable abilities. A non-combat example is crystal clear in the nexus today....there's only ONE class that is constantly hounded for a buff that people still consistently pay for - chanter, KEI.

Fearfactor
56 Defiler, Eci

Edited, Wed May 28 14:13:04 2003
RE: Good for VI
# May 28 2003 at 11:30 AM Rating: Decent
21 posts
What a joke, why would you even say that? FORCED to group? Nobody forces us to pay the 13 bux a month to play this game, why should we be forced to play a certain way?

I personally am neutral about the changes, I can live with them whether I decide to group or go kill things by myself. But your viewpoint is just flat-out WRONG, my friend. You tell me what is bad about someone who does not like to group in a huge HUGE game that they pay their hard earned money to play? You tell me, and if your reason doesn't sound as stupid as what you said above I may change my tune.

-Ferret
Cry babies
# May 28 2003 at 10:27 AM Rating: Decent
With few exceptions the only folks i see whinning here are those "solo" classes that haave enjoyed a huge advantage ever since day one of EQ; tho i find it humurous that their arguments for why this is so bad is that it gives grps the same advantage the soloers have had all this time. Maybe they should just nerf solo XP to 1/6th the normal rate in all zones for a while and then let those folks come back and talk about how aweful this new proposed system is? 8)
One More Thought
# May 28 2003 at 10:01 AM Rating: Good
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64 posts
Has anyone thought this might also be the reason they deflagged the higher zones?

Getting to those zones required some serious group work. Now, the solo classes who could not get there before without help can get there to rack up the higher XP, correct?

RE: One More Thought
# May 28 2003 at 10:13 AM Rating: Good
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215 posts
Yes, they did require some serious group work. And with good reason- if you weren't capable of doing what was necessary to get flagged for zones past tier one, then you probably weren't ready to play in zones past tier one. Inexperienced (or underexperienced, if you prefer) players in advanced zones are a danger not only to themselves and their group, but to other players and groups as well.

Personally, I solo. With the exception of a couple of groups that I was in, I've soloed my pally all the way to 48. It's not that I'm against grouping...I've played other characters as grouping characters, and in my experience, the difficulty of finding a group that actually works well together and that's fun to play with far outweighs the downtime/efficiency and safety issues that come with grouping. I did recognize, however, that when the time came for me to be flagged for upper tier planes, I was going to have to group, and I was okay with that. Why? Because in the upper tiers, grouping is the only way to stay alive unless, through some sort of error, you've managed to equip yourself with a full suit of Plane of Time gear.

It's important that players understand how to play in a group for raids, and for zones that make it a necessity. It's wrong, however, for players who group to be rewarded more than they already are.

-aye

Edited, Wed May 28 10:33:27 2003
RE: One More Thought
# May 28 2003 at 10:28 AM Rating: Excellent
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64 posts
I think the perception at Verant (right or wrong) was that the '6th wheel' was acting as a penalty, more than a plus.

Over time, I have found that the 'optimum' performance makeup of a group seems to be the following roles (fit classes in here as you see fit)

1 Main Tank
1 Main Healer
1 Slower
1 Haster
1 DPS dealer

Note the lack of a 6th position. Now, that 6th position is more valuable to the team and may encourage people to pick up and learn how to work with the various classes.
RE: maybe you do not understand
# May 28 2003 at 9:55 AM Rating: Default
Quote:
They don't intend to take qaway EXP because you don't group, you just don't get the group bonus.

SOLOing NEVER got the "group" bonus.
If a situation is uneven( grp vs. solo) then you adjust one side or the other, not both. Adjusting both sides implies that you cannot adjust one side enough to make them equal or whatever you goal is. Soloing in the planes is chance, limited and fraught with deaths if the pull goes bad. Sometimes the "soloers" go for a long time LFG before they return to soloing. I just recently go to PoS and PoV and have spent lots of time LFG with no results. I have grouped with friends and done some soloing, but the "safe" soloing areas of PoV and PoS are very limited. Yes there are more in PoN and PoD but still limited. Most of my time in the PoP zones is spent LFG, then solo and while I try an get a solo spot in POS/POV I usually end up in PoN fighting the low 50s groups for spots. I can not play the 5-6 hours a stretch every night that some of the groups want, so I end up doing solo. NOW I either enjoy the game much less or play much more and sine playing the game more is not an option that is agreeable with my wife and family.....................

I have no problem with the increase in EXP for groups, but PLEASE, PLEASE do not reduce the casual soloers EXP, it is tough enough as is.
RE: maybe you do not understand
# May 28 2003 at 2:40 PM Rating: Decent
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94 posts


I think there is some confusion here, no one said there was a bonus for soloing, there isnt bonus exp for it. These changes dont penalize a person who does solo.

And they are NOT effecting the amount of exp a solo person gets, they are reducing the amount of exp ANYONE SOLO OR GROUP gets when on the planes. So it is not targetted at solo players it is just an adjustment to exp on the planes.

As an example lets say for this mob you get 1000 exp if it is killed.
If you solo it you get 1000 exp.
If you are group of 2 you get 600 each.
If you are a group of 3 you get 460 each.
If you are a group of 4 you get 400 each.
And a group of 5 or 6 get 360 each.

So the way to get the most exp is still soloing. This change just makes it so that you can group and if work well together and kill fast you can get near the exp of a solo person, a group of 5 or 6 needs to kill roughly 2.77 mobs to get the same exp each as a solo person per kill of the same mob at the same level.

I know I solo a lot, and dread at times grouping even with my guild and friends, cause i will get less exp then solo. Some of my friends are the same way. With this change we still get the same exp solo, but we will get more exp in a group then we have in the past.

Its really a win/win situation for soloers and groupers.

The only thing that can be complained about really is the decrease in planes exp. But this affects soloers and groupers, the rest of these changes just mean more exp for mob kills if grouped, or the same exp if solo.

Has Anyone Realized?
# May 28 2003 at 9:51 AM Rating: Excellent
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64 posts
This may actually HELP the 'not so popular' classes find groups?

My main is a mage. The fact that a lot of people have no clue what mages can do aside, I often find I have trouble finding a planes group not because no one NEEDS me, they just did not want to give up the XP I would take in the 6th spot.

Well, I wont be an XP drain anymore. In fact, thru my pet and nuking, I will now be an XP BONUS thru faster kills and less downtime, as will any of the DPS based classes and backup healers (traditionally the harder ones to find groups for). No way would I get upset about this.

I solo too. If you can control adds, mages can solo very effectively with pets. So from what I understand, my PoP soloing XP will drop from COMPLETELY INSANE to Somewhat Approaching Realistic Numbers.

Everyone seems to think they are 'penalizing' soloers. No. They are just taking the POP zones and putting them back into balance with the rest of the game, as well as providing those classes with more potential group opportunities.

Every time there is a change, people think Verant is out to '*****' someone. I've spoken to a couple of the game designers. They do not want to ***** over anyone. Instead, they are trying to keep a delicate balance in a game that consists of 20+ classes, 20+ races, 65 levels, hundreds of play styles. You try it sometime.
RE: Has Anyone Realized?
# May 28 2003 at 10:03 AM Rating: Default
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215 posts
You're acting as if the only zones that are affected here are the PoP zones. While it's true that it's only in the PoP zones that people who solo are losing exp due to this change, keep in mind that no matter WHAT zone someone is playing in, if they group, they're getting more exp. Soe has been herding players into their narrow-minded vision of how the game should be played ever since I can remember...this is just the next phase in the master plan to eliminate individuality from the game.

And I do realize that designers don't set out to ***** anyone directly, but by providing a benefit to one class or race or playstyle, they ***** all the others indirectly.

"C'mere, boy...c'mere...join the group...thaaaaat's it....GOOD BOY, here's your cookie."

-aye

Edited, Wed May 28 10:40:27 2003
RE: Has Anyone Realized?
# May 28 2003 at 12:34 PM Rating: Default
"by providing a benefit to one class or race or playstyle, they ***** all the others indirectly.

That is so much crap. Either it was OK to solo yesterday or it wasn't. Judging from the number of people here saying "I prefer to solo" at least some of them think it's been worth the $13 / month to do so.

So VI decides to sweeten the deal for groupers. How is this unfair to soloers? The deal is exactly the same as it was yesterday - you still get what you forked your $13 over for.

If this more about 'yeah, well that guy over there who groups is getting more exp than me - and I don't like his playing style" - well, get over it. Welcome to life.
RE: Has Anyone Realized?
# May 28 2003 at 11:11 AM Rating: Decent
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2,268 posts
Now I'm not saying this to flame you or anything. As a matter of fact, I (yes, I the cleric) enjoy soloing sometimes. Even though i get my butt beat by dark blues... (another story though.)

I would like to say, however, that I think Verrant has a right to "herd" us. Granted, we're paying them money each month to log on, but we are playing a game that relies HEAVILY on other people. We're not playing a single player game, we're playing a Massive Multiplayer Online RPG.

But again, I'm not saying I don't think they aren't herding us. I'm just saying I think they have a right to.

And besides, this is comming from a class that pretty much doesn't have a chance to solo. Like I said, I get my butt beat by dark blues (and I'm only 25, there's 30 more levels to go... :-/)

RE: Has Anyone Realized?
# May 28 2003 at 1:04 PM Rating: Decent
Actually, Clerics can solo Dark Blues...you just have to be really careful...and pray that you get no adds...or can root them long enough to finish off the one you started on...

And other "non-solo" "group only" classes can solo. They just have to be careful and again, pray that they get 0 adds.

Unlike the "solo" classes that can deal with adds. Which is why I like to have the "solo" classes in my groups...take care of those pesky adds while the rest finish off the one we started with...because guess who gets hit by the adds once I start healing whoever it just hit...
RE: Has Anyone Realized?
# May 28 2003 at 12:39 PM Rating: Default
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215 posts
I disagree- If this game had been structured, at the time of its release, as a game where players were forced to group in order to fight, they wouldn't have near the subscriber base they do today.

I'm not disputing that Sony has the right to release whatever kind of product they want, but to release a product, for which people pay subscription fees up to 12 months in advance, and then change a basic operating feature of that product is a classic bait-and-switch operation.

From the standpoint of most players who group regularly, this change will be perceived as a good thing because it will get them to their phat lewtz faster.

From SoE's standpoint, this change is a good thing because it's one more step in the overall homogenezation of the game, which means they don't have to work as hard on content- if everyone groups, it's easier to populate a zone and design encounters than if they have to take into account that there will be solo players.

To a soloing player, however, this change does nothing more than reward the players who are willing to go along with Sony's idea of how a perfect world operates.

-aye
RE: Has Anyone Realized?
# May 28 2003 at 10:24 AM Rating: Good
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64 posts
A valid point (the herding). That said, I personally prefer to hunt in OTHER than POP zones (I'm greedy, I like lootage) and this will also make it more attractive to take me on in Seb, Nadox, etc....

I just don't think the downside is as bad as everyone seems to make it.
And yet again...
# May 28 2003 at 9:44 AM Rating: Default
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215 posts
SoE introduces a change to the game whose purpose is to herd players into their idea of how the game should be played and hook new players quicker, all under the guise of "balancing the game". Anyone who cries that people who group get the shaft because they end up with less exp per kill needs to keep in mind that:

-In a group, you're only doing a fraction of the work for an equivalent kill.
-In a group, you're much less likely to die, unless your group screws something up badly.
-In a group, downtime is far lower because the casters can med through the battle, standing only to cast their spells.

What this change does is penalize players who solo. The exp system we have has been working just fine for years. There's no need to change it.

-aye

Edited, Wed May 28 10:07:28 2003
RE: And yet again...
# May 28 2003 at 2:53 PM Rating: Decent
****
8,619 posts
i think the whole point is that the xp system is not working as it should, the fact that <and i'm not flaming droods here> a drood can quad kite 4 mobs, that just 1 of would eat the average melee. means that they are getting far more xp per hour using thier method of hunting than the War who has to share his xp with the other 5 people in his group < trust me go to CS with a group and compare your full group xp per hour to a quad kiting drood they get far far more xp than the group does>. All this does is redress the balance a little.

and don't give me the less chance of dying rubbish there is almost no risk for a good drood kiting in CS , my buddy when 49-56 without dying once

Edited, Wed May 28 15:13:21 2003
RE: And yet again...
# May 28 2003 at 5:04 PM Rating: Default
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215 posts
Not everyone who solos is a druid or wizard quad-kiting mobs. I play a paladin, and I can tell you that if I'm not careful in how I do it, I have a much more significant chance of dying than anyone who's in a group.

I'm not saying that there aren't problems with balance...certainly the rate at which certain classes are able to exp solo is in excess of what it should be. On the other hand, they sort of suffer by not being the most desireable classes to have in a group, so they pay for it in the end.

Players have managed to exp to level 65 with max AAs, with no real snags, using the exp system that's been in place all along. There's no reasonable need to change it now.

-aye
Lowest Common BS
# May 28 2003 at 8:12 AM Rating: Decent
Ok - yet again this is another example of how sad it is that the designers of this game, time and time again, keep dipping down to the lowest common denominator. Its happening with the upcomming patch of all pre-elemental plains being opened and its happening right now. Because not all classes can solo they must make it so that soloing classes get less exp and nonsoloing classes get more. Now i realize, as a bard, that hell - I can get a group within 10 minutes of putting up lfg. But i ask you - Its seems that VI has done this (or testing) so that people will get groups faster due to the friendlier exp for having more members. However lets think about this, shall we? If a group already has a war there not going to get another when they need DPS - because lets face it - wars keep the healers alive by keeping agro. The rogues, rangers, bards, etc. are the key DPS here. So due to the fact that they upped the 5 man group exp bonus - groups are still gonna say "***** you little Timmy - we dont care."
So basically VI is going to be shooting themselves in the foot here if they make this live on all servers because the ******** of LFG that arent needed in the group is still going to happen.

Melodico Harmonico
65th bard
Quellious
RE: Lowest Common BS
# May 28 2003 at 9:55 AM Rating: Decent

So what you are saying is that those classes that CANNOT solo should be penalized instead? Classes such as rogue and warrior and monk, that cannot kite and cannot charm, which are vital for other aspects of the game and are fun to play, should just suffer?

Playing a warrior I spent 1 to 2 hours LFG on average, if I even GET a group in a night that I want to LFG. I have a druid that I used to 2-box with, but the xp was so poor that I gave up and use him almost solely for a gate-bot now.

Give me a break. The game is ment to be social, so be social. If you want to adventure on your own then understand the negative side effects, don't just complain when they give a nice bonus to grouping which should have been done in the begining to help facilitate groups.

Ewan Cathain
63 Warrior
Mithaniel Marr Server
Most soloers dont loose xp !!!
# May 28 2003 at 6:49 AM Rating: Default
It seems people dont read these fully. The only Solo players loosing xp will be peeps in PoP Zones. Lets face it those will still get a lot of xp, with charming and similar methods.

ALL OTHER solors will NOT loose any xp, but get the same amount theyre used to.

I like this idea, and hope it will go live after good testing.
RE: Most soloers dont loose xp !!!
# May 28 2003 at 9:54 AM Rating: Default
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215 posts
That's a very presumptuous statement, Azatoth. I read the message fully, and I understand all of its implications. Do you?

Let me spell this out for you: Because exp is going to increase for grouping, two things will happen:

-Players who group will level faster than players who solo, simply because they're playing the way Sony wants them to.

-Groups will begin to overrun zones that were previously good for soloing, because given a coice between levelling faster doing what they have been, or levelling at the same rate by fighting much easier MOBs, some people will take the lazy and safe way out and fight the easy MOBs.

-aye
RE: Most soloers dont loose xp !!!
# May 29 2003 at 2:45 AM Rating: Decent
"Players who group will level faster than players who solo, simply because they're playing the way Sony wants them to."

How do you figure?
Experience is still going to be divided between the people in the group. When you solo you get 100% of the experience. When you group you get LESS than 100% of the experience. Tell me how I can level faster that way compared to soloing. Each person in the group is NOT going to be receiving the same amount of experience for each kill as you, me, or anybody soloing. Therefore people who are capable of solo fighting CAN still level faster than people who group. There is NO direct effect to people who decide to solo.... NONE.
This is coming from a Druid, a Jack-of-all-trades class that was designed for optimal solo play (as are Wizzard's along with Bard's, Mage's and Necro's). Pally's, Ranger's, SK's and the such aren't designed to be played primarily in a solo enviornment. Why? Because their damage output is divided between Magic AND Melee. When you melee, you get hit. Getting hit= damage. Too much damage=death:^( The casters do everything in their power NOT to get hit and rarely do when fighting. Some classes are better suited for soloing while others are better suited for grouping. If you wanted to solo so bad you should have created a Druid or Wizzy. A Pally's primary job in the game is as a tank. You wear Plate and take a lot of damage. You swing 2 hand swords and deal alot of damage. Either face your problem or change classes.

"Groups will begin to overrun zones that were previously good for soloing, because given a coice between levelling faster doing what they have been, or levelling at the same rate by fighting much easier MOBs, some people will take the lazy and safe way out and fight the easy MOBs."

That is a very presumptuous and generalized statement. The majority of the people that play this game play for the fun, interaction and CHALLENGE that is involved. You are making a huge generalization because you fail to realize that higher level MoB's will STILL give more experience than lower level "easier" MoB's, thus making them more attractive for groups to kill for experience. Killing that level 60 mob is going to get you more experience than killing that level 55. You are right in saying that SOME people will take the lazy and safe way out, but I guarantee that people who are grinding hard for experience won't.

Edited, Thu May 29 03:26:05 2003
#Anonymous, Posted: May 28 2003 at 8:35 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) PoP zones are the only zones worth soloing in post 50, and the majority of the player base is 50+
not a punishment
# May 28 2003 at 6:28 AM Rating: Default
I am relatively new to the game, having just started about three months ago. My main is a lvl53 druid. I love to quad and charm solo. I also love the social aspect of the game, but am often frustrated when groups aren't interested in inviting a druid. So, after /ooc LFG and not being invited for a while, (multiple zones sometimes), it's off to solo more, get the next level, see if I'll get invited to group if I'm just one level higher. Doesn't happen. Rinse, repeat.

On balance, I think the proposed change for an improved group exp bonus is good. It won't prevent the toons that can solo from getting great exp soloing, or prevent those without a large block of time from soloing, but it will encourage groups to add another by rewarding that behavior with the bonus.

RE: not a punishment
# May 28 2003 at 9:59 AM Rating: Good
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64 posts
I kind of want to make a point here, not necessarily to this person (actually he/she agrees with me), but he/she prompted it.

This individual has been playing for 3 months. His main is a 53 druid. Does anyone find anything wrong with this at all?

Granted, I have no idea how much play time is involved here, so I can't say for sure, but 3 months seems like an awfully rapid time to get to 53 AND learn how to properly play your class.

I've been running a lot of 50+ events recently and have been finding more and more characters who have NO idea how to work in groups or raids (and consequently cause delays and wipeouts) because they either soloed their way to the upper levels or were powerleveled by friends or guildies (a rant for another day). Examples: Druids who don't heal the caster groups they are put in. Bards who have no idea how to mez properly. ANY DPS class who has no idea what an assist call is.

It's taken me over a year to get where I am, but I would like to think I am a damn good mage. I know my role in raids, and how to control my pets to avoid adds (in most cases admittely, I still make mistakes). Speed levelling and soloing does not contribute to this learning. Period.

When you get to the higher levels, for anything other than XP grinding, groups and raids are a MUST, not an option.
Solo nerf? Not really
# May 28 2003 at 6:18 AM Rating: Decent
"Accordingly, the bonus inherent to Planes of Power zones will be decreased slightly"

Okay, those of you that are complaining about this need to wake up.

This is not a nerf to solo experience. Is "not". Its a nerf to PoP experience. Anyone been to LOIO lately? Experience is crappy compared to what it was a few months ago. Why? Because they nerfed the experience bonus there.

PoP Is getting an experience nerf. At the same time, Groups are getting an experience bonus. They STILL get the experience nerf if in PoP, this "new bonus" makes up for this. Alot of posts on this board are saying "I think its unfair they are nerfing soloing. They should just add in the group bonus and leave solo classes alone." Well, thats exactly what they are doing. The PoP zone "bonus" is being lowered "slightly". This isnt an attack on soloers, it will lower everyones experience. The new bonus is completely different.

So, for those of you who still dont get it.. lets recap:

1.) This is only affecting PoP zones.
2.) This is a loss to both solo and group experience. ( nerfing PoP zone bonus )
3.) Group experience bonus will make up for this loss.

Okay. Now, if your upset with this, go find another zone to level in? Your not going to though. Because you know the PoP zones will still have the best solo experience, even with this slight reduction(that everyone is getting).

Go whine about LOIO. I know I am.. That was nice experience at level 16+.. now its crap. Same with OT. Kunark was just nerfed. PoP is now getting a minor nerf. Did you expect it to last forever? No. Lost Dungeons is comming out soon, with a new experience multiplier that will last 9 months before being slightly nerfed.

Atleast this time they are announcing the experience reduction.

As a side note. If you only play 2 hours a day, only solo and never raid. Why don't you play a single player game and stop ******** about a 5% nerf in your experience.

-stuff

Edited, Wed May 28 07:00:19 2003
RE: Solo nerf? Not really
# May 28 2003 at 8:24 AM Rating: Good
The end result is that soloers will get less exp. That is the issue that people are having problems with. Yes, only in PoP, but PoP zones are the only places worth exping in post 50.
And
Quote - "If you only play 2 hours a day, only solo and never raid. Why don't you play a single player game and stop ******** about a 5% nerf in your experience."
???
Why do you play? Because it is fun. So why should people with less time to play be treated any different than you, who has more time? If you had a family / life / job - shouldnt you be rewarded, rather than punished? Those are the people who NEED the play time more than those who have all day.
RE: Solo nerf? Not really
# May 28 2003 at 11:24 AM Rating: Decent
Ok, hmm, let's see.... you said, Quote - "If you only play 2 hours a day, only solo and never raid. Why don't you play a single player game and stop ******** about a 5% nerf in your experience." Why do you play? Because it is fun. So why should people with less time to play be treated any different than you, who has more time? If you had a family / life / job - shouldnt you be rewarded, rather than punished? Those are the people who NEED the play time more than those who have all day.

I believe thats what they just did....those of us who can only play 2 hours at any given time because we have family / life / jobs etc... are now able to get in groups for the added xp MUCH faster due to the new bonuses. Seems to me we just got rewarded..ie..better chance to pick up that XP bonus from grouping even if you dont have time to stay for an hour just LFG. My two cents worth, feel free to flame on :)

RE: Solo nerf? Not really
# May 28 2003 at 8:11 AM Rating: Default
not worth it.

Edited, Wed May 28 08:49:12 2003
Group Xp bonus
# May 28 2003 at 5:32 AM Rating: Excellent
12 posts
Well as a Monk this is great news for me.....and I think the "slight reduction" (remains to be seen what that is!) in PoP xp is more than made up for by the grouping bonus I will receive.

In my opinion PoP xp is way too high anyway!! A bit contraversial I know, but since I started fighting in PoV/PoS I have gained levels at a rate not seen since I was level 15 in HHK!!

I think it is also important to attempt to address the imbalance between those classes that can quad kite/charm their way up through the levels at a terrific rate, and us poor melees that can't!! Im not jealous that you can go so quickly, but I just don't like to see us get left behind :-)

Brite
63 Monk
VS
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