Transgender rightsFollow

This is a thread about ***** possession.

Those traits not being intrinsic is the purpose of the creation of the word "gender", to differentiate personality traits from your sex. The fact that there is no standard on what is a female gender trait only supports the argument that bathrooms are based on sex, not a subjective, evolving opinion based on various cultures around the world.



I don't disagree. Read above.

Edited, Apr 2nd 2013 11:23pm by Almalieque

Please provide me a better list of female gender traits.

Yes, I do understand. You're arguing that the determinate of who can/should use any given restroom is based on gender and not sex. I'm arguing that it's based on sex and not gender. My argument is based on two things:

1. It's based on sex because there are differences between the restrooms that are clearly based on the physical traits of those intended to use them. Since sex is based on physiology and not psychology, this strongly suggests that sex is the determinate being used.

2. If it's based on gender and not sex, and gender is purely subjective (determined by the individual and not via any external objective means), then the distinction is irrelevant and we have no usable determination of who should use which restroom, and thus having different restrooms becomes meaningless..



I don't think you're arguing *for* that per se. But your argument is the equivalent of arguing for that. As I've stated repeatedly, since gender cannot be determined by any external objective means, allowing use of restrooms by gender effectively requires that we allow anyone to use any bathroom they want. It's like you're arguing for people who like strawberry ice cream to have strawberry ice cream specifically, but failing to grasp that what you're really arguing for is anyone to have any flavor they like. Unless you want *only* people who like strawberry ice cream to have what they want, but everyone else has to eat whatever flavor they're served. In which case your argument is discrimination in the guise of fighting against discrimination (as I've also pointed out several times in this thread).

This is why your argument is about allowing anyone to use any restroom they want. You may not think that's what you're arguing for, but it is the only way to fulfill the thing you *are* arguing for.



And? Women (sex) never use urinals, and men (sex) almost always use urinals. I'm not sure what your point is. Urinals can only be used by people with penises. Thus, they exist so that people with penises may use them. The fact that not everyone with a ***** will use them every time doesn't change that fact.



Which is funny, give that this is precisely what you are doing.



I'm not arguing that. See how you are doing what you accuse me of doing? It's called projection. I'm arguing that if bathrooms were separated by gender urinals would not exist. Because if they were separated by gender, we could not assume that people with penises would use one restroom, but not the other. Thus, there would be no reason to put urinals in one, but not the other. Additionally, since there would be concern about people with penises peeing in urinals in front of people without penises, we'd have significant pressure to just put stalls in all the restrooms and no urinals.

That was my primary argument. I thought it was quite clear.

A secondary argument is that if we didn't have pressure (hangups) in our society about people with penises using urinals in front of people that don't, then the rationale for having them in either restroom becomes equal. You get that the reason trans people today don't use urinals is because of social conventions and no other reasons. If we didn't exist in a society where men aren't expected to wave their penises in front of women, we'd have communal restrooms with both stalls and urinals. But we don't.

The problem is that you are arguing for changes to how society deals with certain things, but not really thinking through the ramifications of the changes you're arguing for. You're assuming that one thing can change without anything else changing. But that's not how things tend to work.




So neither is wearing a dress? Or looking as society currently expects a woman to look, right? I just find it funny that you're arguing for a social change/acceptance of one thing, but then steadfastly insisting that it can't change in some other way. So a biological male who is gender female in your world should use the women's restroom both because it's more comfortable for him/her *and* causes less problems for the other occupants (since they'll assume she's female). But there's no reason why a trans person can't identify with the gender of the opposite sex, without feeling the need to dress according to social stereotypes regarding that gender, right? Not unless you're discounting the possibility of a butch trans female, or effeminate trans male. You're being just as discriminatory for other forms of deviation from the norm (and deviation is not meant negatively here btw) as you accuse others of being regarding yourself if you do that.


Which brings us back to "anyone can use any restroom". Once you separate the issue from biology, there's no rational reason to argue that this person with a ***** can use the women's restroom, but that other one over there cannot. But you seem to want to pretend that we can make an exception for your group, but not anyone else. I think that's problematic.

Edited, Apr 2nd 2013 3:43pm by gbaji

My point is that there is no reason urinals would ever be put into women's bathrooms.

Uh, huh? When 99% of people with penises use one bathroom, the other 1% are irrelevant. Why wouldn't you put urinals in a bathroom where most of the people who go into it will use them?

99% of people in one bathroom will use urinals. .001% in the other will. Yup, sure seems equal to me.

Huh? Why? I've never known trans men to have a problem with this. I don't know about how much cis women would care, but there will never be a reason to put urinals in a women's bathroom, so it doesn't matter.

Wow, i didn't know you knew more about why trans people do what they do than those people themselves!

Nope, i'm not asking for an exception for anyone. Everyone uses the bathroom that matches their gender, no exceptions.

I told you some 600 posts ago that i don't know how to describe it to someone who has no awareness of how gender can differ from sex.

No, definitely not. It would take far more than 100 words.

It can be. As evidenced by your (and most people's) lack of understanding.An example? That's easy. Mine.

No, i'm claiming a meaningful explanation would exceed 100 words.
Nope, it's not. You didn't ask for a definition. It's an example, which is what you asked for. Another example: your mom's gender.

I give up.

It's obvious that you've never actually interacted with a trans person before.

So like, we're looking for a way for your average person using the restroom to be able to tell the difference between "legitimate transgender" and "creepy pervert" without unnecessarily involving the relevant authorities? Or at least without the potential perpetrator needing to spend 40 hours with a psychologist?

Or is this thread still about not having a *****?