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Father shoots/kills daughter's boyfriendFollow

#252 Mar 21 2014 at 10:25 PM Rating: Decent
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Timelordwho wrote:

Ok, first problem. You don't get within melee range of someone you suspect to be a rapist, especially if you have a ranged weapon. Inform them that you will shoot if they make sudden moves, and have them slowly extricate themselves from the situation. Then you can question them, while waiting for the police if that ends up being the situation. Any home defense instruction should be telling you to try de-escalate the situation to prevent this sort of thing.


The FIRST problem is people falsely assessing and acting upon "threats" by their enhanced self-perception of power given by such weapons.

Torrence wrote:
Kaolian very specifically said that at the point where he is ready to shoot, his daughter has already stated this man was a stranger who was unlawfully inside the house. That's pretty much exactly how the situation in question played out.

Dad enters the room, asks questions, tells the kid not to move, and the kid does something stupid as all hell like reach for "something". That's a lot different than coming in, guns blazing, shooting anything that moves and asking questions later. Don't distort the facts.

I also take very serious exception with your last comment. I'm all for better gun laws but I have weapons, and they are for protection, because people are @#%^ing insane. If you think that's absurd, I hope you never have to live through an attack, because it obviously hasn't happened to you yet.


For someone to say "don't distort the facts", you sure are doing a lot of it.

1. As stated, there were more obvious facts leading to the fact that the girl was lying than the boy actually being a rapist. The fact that the father didn't go in the room gun-blazing, but asking questions first means that there was plenty of time to address the situation.

2. The kid didn't just "do something stupid", the two got in an argument, presumably over the girl lying.

3. If you're a fan of statistics, then statistics show that you're more likely to be in a violent domestic dispute (or with someone you know) as opposed to a complete stranger. So, by simply having the gun in your house, you're increasing the statistical probability of something like this happening. I don't have a problem with people having weapons in their home (or concealed), but if you want to talk about distorting facts, then you must acknowledge that fact.
#253 Mar 22 2014 at 3:44 AM Rating: Good
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Timelordwho wrote:
His Excellency Aethien wrote:
Dread Lörd Kaolian wrote:
I'm pretty sure that if I had a daughter, and she said "this man snuck into my bedroom and I don't know who it is" the fact that the death occured via a gun would simply be a matter of conveniance of access to a gun at that point. Gun or no gun, that guy was still dead. It's unfortunate that his daughter was in fact about the biggest idiot on the planet apperently in not seeing that chain of events coming, but trying to make it into a gun control issue is really missing the core of the situation.
This I just don't get. I don't expect you to be all polite but to instantly go to kill mode is just baffling to me. Just pulling him off would've worked as well and he might've broken something but that's a lot less bad than being dead. And the fact that anyone would even want a gun in their house for any reason other than sport or hunting seems absurd to me.

Ok, first problem. You don't get within melee range of someone you suspect to be a rapist, especially if you have a ranged weapon. Inform them that you will shoot if they make sudden moves, and have them slowly extricate themselves from the situation. Then you can question them, while waiting for the police if that ends up being the situation. Any home defense instruction should be telling you to try de-escalate the situation to prevent this sort of thing.
Ok, I'd trust you with a gun. Most other people, including myself, not so much.
#254 Mar 22 2014 at 2:15 PM Rating: Good
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His Excellency Aethien wrote:
Mazra wrote:
No idea how much sarcasm and tongue-in-cheek is happening in this thread, but this is mildly disturbing.
It's mostly Americans and when it comes to guns Europe and the USA are so wildly different that this thread is a little bewildering.


It's ok. You can admit that you're all jealous that you couldn't prance naked around the house with a loaded AK if you wanted to.
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#255 Mar 22 2014 at 4:19 PM Rating: Default
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Kelvyquayo wrote:
His Excellency Aethien wrote:
Mazra wrote:
No idea how much sarcasm and tongue-in-cheek is happening in this thread, but this is mildly disturbing.
It's mostly Americans and when it comes to guns Europe and the USA are so wildly different that this thread is a little bewildering.


It's ok. You can admit that you're all jealous that you couldn't prance naked around the house with a loaded AK if you wanted to.


Hey now, prancing around naked with AR15 is called American Dream for a reason. Cuz its American, not some Socialist EU Nightmare.
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#256 Mar 24 2014 at 7:04 AM Rating: Good
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Kelvyquayo wrote:
You can admit that you're all jealous that you couldn't prance naked around the house with a loaded AK if you wanted to.
You red commie.
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#257 Mar 24 2014 at 7:45 AM Rating: Good
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Kelvyquayo wrote:
His Excellency Aethien wrote:
Mazra wrote:
No idea how much sarcasm and tongue-in-cheek is happening in this thread, but this is mildly disturbing.
It's mostly Americans and when it comes to guns Europe and the USA are so wildly different that this thread is a little bewildering.


It's ok. You can admit that you're all jealous that you couldn't prance naked around the house with a loaded AK if you wanted to.

I think in much of America-the-free you can't prance around your house naked if you have windows to the outside world and you are male - cuz that makes you a perverted child-molesting mother-raper.

Though maybe adding the gun would make it ok.


Edited, Mar 24th 2014 3:46pm by Elinda
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#258 Mar 24 2014 at 8:06 AM Rating: Excellent
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What if I tape a gun to my dong?
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Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#259 Mar 24 2014 at 8:10 AM Rating: Excellent
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A .38 special, if you know what I mean.
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#260 Mar 24 2014 at 8:21 AM Rating: Excellent
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Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#261 Mar 24 2014 at 8:25 AM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
What if I tape a gun to my dong?
Smiley: lol

Stick um up.
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#262 Mar 24 2014 at 10:02 AM Rating: Decent
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His Excellency Aethien wrote:
I've never even seen a gun not in the hands of a hunter, police officer or military personnel and I probably never will. It's this paranoid fear that there could be a madman with a gun around every corner or sneaking into your house to rape your daughter(s) that I just don't get and for as far as I can tell is a uniquely American thing.

So yes, I think owning a gun to protect yourself with is absurd.


No, it's a reality for folks who live in areas where crimes aren't necessarily the "exception". I think it's insane that so many people actually agree with you that protecting oneself is an absurd notion.
#263 Mar 24 2014 at 10:38 AM Rating: Good
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Torrence wrote:
His Excellency Aethien wrote:
I've never even seen a gun not in the hands of a hunter, police officer or military personnel and I probably never will. It's this paranoid fear that there could be a madman with a gun around every corner or sneaking into your house to rape your daughter(s) that I just don't get and for as far as I can tell is a uniquely American thing.

So yes, I think owning a gun to protect yourself with is absurd.


No, it's a reality for folks who live in areas where crimes aren't necessarily the "exception". I think it's insane that so many people actually agree with you that protecting oneself is an absurd notion.

I think it's insane that you'd jump to the conclusion that Aethien ever said he'd not defend himself. Locking yourself in the bathroom while you call the police is defending oneself. Interrupting the situation, asking and getting answers is defending oneself. Not alienating and scaring your children to the point that they sneak and lie to you is defending oneself.

I think it's insane that 'shooting a stranger' is the only option you can think of for defending yourself.
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#264 Mar 24 2014 at 10:57 AM Rating: Good
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Torrence wrote:
His Excellency Aethien wrote:
I've never even seen a gun not in the hands of a hunter, police officer or military personnel and I probably never will. It's this paranoid fear that there could be a madman with a gun around every corner or sneaking into your house to rape your daughter(s) that I just don't get and for as far as I can tell is a uniquely American thing.

So yes, I think owning a gun to protect yourself with is absurd.
No, it's a reality for folks who live in areas where crimes aren't necessarily the "exception". I think it's insane that so many people actually agree with you that protecting oneself is an absurd notion.
Are you delusional? Unless you live in downtown Camden or some similarly shady place crime is the exception and you're more likely to make things worse with a gun than actually protect yourself. You think that burglar is out to hurt you? He just wants your TV but if he's got a gun and you're holding a gun he's much more likely to try and kill you than if you just let him take your damn TV and report it to the cops. Unlike you seem to believe the world isn't full of crazy violent criminals who are too dumb or desperate to steal from a house where nobody's home.
#265 Mar 24 2014 at 12:31 PM Rating: Decent
The majority of gun injuries and gun deaths are from gun accidents, so the best way to protect yourself with a gun is to simply not have one around.
#266 Mar 24 2014 at 12:34 PM Rating: Good
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If I were (any part of) the rest of the world I think I'd be cheering for Americans to kill each other off, at this point. We must look so insane from outside.
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#267 Mar 24 2014 at 12:56 PM Rating: Good
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Samira wrote:
If I were (any part of) the rest of the world I think I'd be cheering for Americans to kill each other off, at this point. We must look so insane from outside.

Guns n' Roses..
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#268 Mar 24 2014 at 12:58 PM Rating: Decent
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The cop is totally checking out the glock on that dude.
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#269 Mar 24 2014 at 2:11 PM Rating: Good
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lolgaxe wrote:
The cop is totally checking out the glock on that dude.
If it was an actual gun he'd be at risk of accidentally shooting off his own ****. Seems like a pretty damn stupid way of carrying a gun to me.
#270 Mar 24 2014 at 3:03 PM Rating: Good
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Elinda wrote:
Torrence wrote:
No, it's a reality for folks who live in areas where crimes aren't necessarily the "exception". I think it's insane that so many people actually agree with you that protecting oneself is an absurd notion.

I think it's insane that you'd jump to the conclusion that Aethien ever said he'd not defend himself. Locking yourself in the bathroom while you call the police is defending oneself. Interrupting the situation, asking and getting answers is defending oneself. Not alienating and scaring your children to the point that they sneak and lie to you is defending oneself.


To be fair, none of those are really "defending yourself" so much as "hiding" and/or "letting the other person control the situation". Which is great if it does turn out that guy in your daughters room is really her boyfriend, but not so great otherwise.

Quote:
I think it's insane that 'shooting a stranger' is the only option you can think of for defending yourself.


This particular situation aside, by far the most common use of a firearm with regard to crime is as a threat used to protect a potential victim from the criminal. The problem is that gun control advocates intentionally use only statistics where a gun is fired, leaving out all of the cases where it's "used" to prevent crime and a shot is never fired. Most of the time firearms are used to defend oneself from a criminal act without the gun being fired, or anyone getting hurt.

So "shooting a stranger" is the exception, not the norm. But "no one got shot today" doesn't make a good headline.

Edited, Mar 24th 2014 2:04pm by gbaji
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#271 Mar 24 2014 at 3:45 PM Rating: Decent
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His Excellency Aethien wrote:
lolgaxe wrote:
The cop is totally checking out the glock on that dude.
If it was an actual gun he'd be at risk of accidentally shooting off his own ****.

So now he's a sharpshooter?
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#272 Mar 24 2014 at 3:48 PM Rating: Decent
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gbaji wrote:
a gun is fired, leaving out all of the cases where it's "used" to prevent crime and a shot is never fired. Most of the time firearms are used to defend oneself from a criminal act without the gun being fired, or anyone getting hurt.

So "shooting a stranger" is the exception, not the norm. But "no one got shot today" doesn't make a good headline.

Yeah, duh. It's mostly not strangers that get shot. The shooting headlines that usually make this forum however are those in the gray areas of being justifiable by law or common sense. Course this is Alma's thread so all bets off about it's cause.

Better headline:
US News, bout a year ago wrote:

•Every day in the U.S., an average of 289 people are shot. Eighty-six of them die: 30 are murdered, 53 kill themselves, two die accidentally, and one is shot in a police intervention, the Brady Campaign reports.
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#273 Mar 24 2014 at 3:58 PM Rating: Good
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Elinda wrote:
gbaji wrote:
a gun is fired, leaving out all of the cases where it's "used" to prevent crime and a shot is never fired. Most of the time firearms are used to defend oneself from a criminal act without the gun being fired, or anyone getting hurt.

So "shooting a stranger" is the exception, not the norm. But "no one got shot today" doesn't make a good headline.

Yeah, duh. It's mostly not strangers that get shot.


Sure. But it's mostly strangers who are defended against when someone isn't shot. I get that there are legitimate arguments to go with, but this by itself isn't one of them. By far the most dog bite injuries are suffered by people who are not strangers to the dogs owners, yet "get a dog" is still arguably one of the best home protection actions one can take. So while what you're saying is true, it does not invalidate the reason(s) to own a gun.

Quote:
The shooting headlines that usually make this forum however are those in the gray areas of being justifiable by law or common sense. Course this is Alma's thread so all bets off about it's cause.


Lol! Good point. I'm just speaking in broad terms though. We sometimes forget that by focusing on a small subset of cases, we can easily miss the larger issue. In the US guns are overwhelmingly used for home and personal defense. We can argue whether they should be, or if they were replaced with other weapons what effect that would have on crime, but just tossing out statistics like "most shootings are accidents" doesn't really say much IMO.

Quote:
Better headline:
US News, bout a year ago wrote:

•Every day in the U.S., an average of 289 people are shot. Eighty-six of them die: 30 are murdered, 53 kill themselves, two die accidentally, and one is shot in a police intervention, the Brady Campaign reports.


Yeah. Like this. Think people wouldn't commit suicide if they didn't have a gun? That's 2/3rds of the deaths right there. Think people wont commit murder if they don't have a gun? So what's left? Now compare it to the thousands of times per day that firearms are used to prevent and/or protect against a crime. Context matters.
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#274 Mar 24 2014 at 4:06 PM Rating: Good
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Wow, 12045 killed in a year. Of course, "murdered" is a loaded term. I would be interested in knowing how many of those were manslaughter of whatever degree, and how many were self defense.

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#275 Mar 24 2014 at 4:17 PM Rating: Decent
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Samira wrote:
Wow, 12045 killed in a year. Of course, "murdered" is a loaded term. I would be interested in knowing how many of those were manslaughter of whatever degree, and how many were self defense.


Which is what? .004% of the US population? I'm not saying that those deaths don't matter, but in context...

Oh. And yeah, I agree. Given that they didn't allow for any other numbers, we kinda have to assume that "murdered" (interesting that they'd use such a loaded term) includes the full set of "people who were shot intentionally and died". Which we have to assume includes a number of self defense situations.

Edited, Mar 24th 2014 3:18pm by gbaji
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#276 Mar 24 2014 at 4:36 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
[Which is what? .004% of the US population? I'm not saying that those deaths don't matter, but in context...

But we'll turn the country upside down and declare a couple wars when 0.00095% of the population dies.
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