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We will respond overwhelmingly to the violence in IraqFollow
I love liberals I really do. The worlds troubles are our own until we do something that is not only right but can also help our interests. They want to say that the war in Iraq had no basing yet we can go into Kosovo for human rights concerns. Let's go ahead and forget that Saddam has a long track record of sponsoring terrorism (such as giving money to the families of Palestinian bombers). Let's forget that he spoke out to his country after September 11th saying we pretty much got what we deserved. Heck let's forget that he gassed the Khurds and Iranians showing he not only possesed at one time WMDs but that he had a willingness to use them. Let's go ahead and forget that Iraqi troops also had Chem/Bio suits and warheads deemed capable of using such agents. Let's forget that when given a last chance to come clean with unfettered inspections he went ahead playing the same old games he did before. Oh heck let's even forget the UN was pissing on it's own sanctions on Iraq with their Oil for Food program. Let's forget that subsequently it's member nations jumped at every chance to challenge the war in Iraq.. Yeah we're just the good ol Imperialist America jumping into another Vietnam right? It's great how we're expected to clean up the worlds messes yet we can't act in our own defense. To top it off People expect everything for nothing. Sure lets occupy a country but the second a terroist decides to put a bloodfest up for the world to see they cower and yell retreat! Unrealistic expectations are the liberal way why should any of us be surprised?
You are correct, I had thought the person was Raed when it is in fact Salam Pax. Which actually makes it a more direct connection since he obviously maintains the "Where is Raed" site and set River's link there.
Which only reinforces the idea that River is legitimate in my mind. I would hope that a newspaper journalist would at least attempt to find out if a link is legitimate but, again, who knows? At any rate, it's more evidence (however circumstantial) on the "Yes" side than your sole complaint about football fields. If more broken English translations and original Arabic text make you feel better, you can read the diaries of Raed's mother.
Sadly, you did not "just say" she spoke American, you said her site was "fishy" and pointed to it as an example of a "fabricated/questionable" sources. Again, I ask if you have any evidence beyond "football field" that the blog is fabricated.
For the record, Raed (can we agree that Raed exists and is Iraqi?) wrote:
Which only reinforces the idea that River is legitimate in my mind. I would hope that a newspaper journalist would at least attempt to find out if a link is legitimate but, again, who knows? At any rate, it's more evidence (however circumstantial) on the "Yes" side than your sole complaint about football fields. If more broken English translations and original Arabic text make you feel better, you can read the diaries of Raed's mother.
Sadly, you did not "just say" she spoke American, you said her site was "fishy" and pointed to it as an example of a "fabricated/questionable" sources. Again, I ask if you have any evidence beyond "football field" that the blog is fabricated.
For the record, Raed (can we agree that Raed exists and is Iraqi?) wrote:
Quote:
The uprising in Iraq is still expanding…
But I still feel that Bush and Bremer are totally out of the picture…
All what we can hear from the coalition governments’ spokesmen, and from the international media news are some fake explanations and explanations…
Let me declare some points:
AsSadr is NOT reflecting a minority of Iraqis, this is a stupid big lie.
Whether we liked him or not, he is the political and religious leader for MILLIONS of Iraqis in the southern region…
There are 15 million Iraqis living in the south, and another 5 million in Baghdad, I can say that 5 to 7 millions of them can be considered as AsSadr followers.
AsSadr is NOT a mere twenty-something year old guy, that is playing games.
Whether we liked him or not, he is a phenomenon. When people in the south of Iraq look at Muqtada AsSadr, they see the history of his father, the deep roots of his religious supporter: AlHaeri.
AsSadr is NOT a small follower of the Iranian Government; he has very bad relations with the official government of Iran, unlike Sistani and Hakim.
AsSadr is THE GOVERNMENT in most of the cities of the south: Amara, Kut, Nasryya and Diwanyya and Simawa partially, and Najaf partially (Kufa is a small city in Najaf that is the center of AsSadr).
I mean… from my secular point of view… it is a disaster to have all of these extremist religious right-winged militias… but this is the direct result of the lost policy of the Bush administration, which are exactly what the expected problem of imported “democracy” would be, I used to call this cul-de-sac that we are stuck in: The Algerian Dead End. Algeria went through the exact scenario some years ago… do you want elections and democracy? The powerful extremist religion people are going to win :*)
You don’t want democracy and elections? Don’t start the mess.
But I still feel that Bush and Bremer are totally out of the picture…
All what we can hear from the coalition governments’ spokesmen, and from the international media news are some fake explanations and explanations…
Let me declare some points:
AsSadr is NOT reflecting a minority of Iraqis, this is a stupid big lie.
Whether we liked him or not, he is the political and religious leader for MILLIONS of Iraqis in the southern region…
There are 15 million Iraqis living in the south, and another 5 million in Baghdad, I can say that 5 to 7 millions of them can be considered as AsSadr followers.
AsSadr is NOT a mere twenty-something year old guy, that is playing games.
Whether we liked him or not, he is a phenomenon. When people in the south of Iraq look at Muqtada AsSadr, they see the history of his father, the deep roots of his religious supporter: AlHaeri.
AsSadr is NOT a small follower of the Iranian Government; he has very bad relations with the official government of Iran, unlike Sistani and Hakim.
AsSadr is THE GOVERNMENT in most of the cities of the south: Amara, Kut, Nasryya and Diwanyya and Simawa partially, and Najaf partially (Kufa is a small city in Najaf that is the center of AsSadr).
I mean… from my secular point of view… it is a disaster to have all of these extremist religious right-winged militias… but this is the direct result of the lost policy of the Bush administration, which are exactly what the expected problem of imported “democracy” would be, I used to call this cul-de-sac that we are stuck in: The Algerian Dead End. Algeria went through the exact scenario some years ago… do you want elections and democracy? The powerful extremist religion people are going to win :*)
You don’t want democracy and elections? Don’t start the mess.
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
It's great! They'll keep putting radicals in power and we'll keep knocking them down. Eventually there will be a government in place that we can work with. Puppet states are great.
Jophiel wrote:
Sadly, you did not "just say" she spoke American, you said her site was "fishy" and pointed to it as an example of a "fabricated/questionable" sources. Again, I ask if you have any evidence beyond "football field" that the blog is fabricated.
Yes Joph. Look at it from my point of view. Someone posts a link in a context that indicates that the link is expressing the view of the average Iraqi. I click on the link and start reading. About midway through the second post in the blog I start recognizing inconsistencies in the language that indicate strongly that the person writing it is American, specifically a US raised individual.
So. Knowing *nothing* else about the site, the person, or the source, it sure as hell did look "fishy" to me...
My point is that there are *many* different opinions. Not every American agrees on the issues surrounding Iraq right now. Why expect that everyone in Iraq will either? My real issue is that the way the Left tells the story, every single Iraqi hates the US and just wants us to leave. I believe that the issue is much more complex and deserves a bit more thought and discussion then the equivalent of shouting slogans at eachother from 10 feet away through bullhorns.
EDIT: Oh. BTW. Which archive page did you find that on? I looked for a bit but couldn't find it...
Edited, Tue Apr 13 20:30:51 2004 by gbaji
King Nobby wrote:
More words please
I just can't wait for guided energy weapons personally. We won't have to invade a country to take out their leadership. Even better we can make it look like a health problem or someone elses fault. The way it should be.
Quote:
My real issue is that the way the Left tells the story, every single Iraqi hates the US and just wants us to leave
I'm tired of clicking back to link things, so go page to page one, and the link to Rael's blog is in my inital post about the BBC. One is the Salam Pax "Where is Rael?" site and the other is Rael's actual personal blog. The quoted text is from his actual blog.
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
Ok. He does have some interesting things to say, and he certainly makes some very good points. I think he buys into the rummormill that passes for news in Iraq right now, but other then that he's got a pretty good grip on what's going on.
One of the things that a number of folks I've talked to who've rotated back from Iraq have said is that the "news" in Iraq is sketchy at best. It's the equivalent of the old telephone game. One person will witness an event and relate it to someone else. That person will tell his family, who'll relate it to some friends of theirs and so on until the story has been distorted and exagerated to an extreme. The story of how they "heard" that there was bombing in a particular city, had relatives in that city, called them up and they were all sleeping is a good indicator of this (don't ask me which page that one was on!). When they called, their family members were asleep and no bombing was going on. But to anyone else who heard, they would continue to believe that it was happening.
This sort of thing is rampant in Iraq. It's one of the reasons why the focus right now is to get electricity and TV going again. This is largely because when the rummormill disagrees with the "official" news, guess who the people believe? All the reports of people being "detained" and disappearing? Bogus. All of them. But that's a commonly held belief. While I'm sure a *very small* number of folks have been arrested for looting or taking part in shootings, the average joe on the street isn't being arrested and killed like the rummors indicate.
And that's just a few. They're rampant, and they are what passes for "news" in Iraq right now. No wonder the population is in an uproar?
As to AsSadr? While I'd need to do more research, he sounds like a person who *could* be part of the solution, but by distancing himself and casting himself in the "rebel" role, he's only contributing to the problem. But that's just my opinion.
One of the things that a number of folks I've talked to who've rotated back from Iraq have said is that the "news" in Iraq is sketchy at best. It's the equivalent of the old telephone game. One person will witness an event and relate it to someone else. That person will tell his family, who'll relate it to some friends of theirs and so on until the story has been distorted and exagerated to an extreme. The story of how they "heard" that there was bombing in a particular city, had relatives in that city, called them up and they were all sleeping is a good indicator of this (don't ask me which page that one was on!). When they called, their family members were asleep and no bombing was going on. But to anyone else who heard, they would continue to believe that it was happening.
This sort of thing is rampant in Iraq. It's one of the reasons why the focus right now is to get electricity and TV going again. This is largely because when the rummormill disagrees with the "official" news, guess who the people believe? All the reports of people being "detained" and disappearing? Bogus. All of them. But that's a commonly held belief. While I'm sure a *very small* number of folks have been arrested for looting or taking part in shootings, the average joe on the street isn't being arrested and killed like the rummors indicate.
And that's just a few. They're rampant, and they are what passes for "news" in Iraq right now. No wonder the population is in an uproar?
As to AsSadr? While I'd need to do more research, he sounds like a person who *could* be part of the solution, but by distancing himself and casting himself in the "rebel" role, he's only contributing to the problem. But that's just my opinion.
King Nobby wrote:
More words please
Al-Sadr needs a bullet in his head.
Don't worry, the CPA shuts down any news source that isn't freindly to them at every opportunity.
If only they get to Al Jezera, the BBC and CNN they'd be able to controll all of the media out of Iraq instead of just most of it.
If only they get to Al Jezera, the BBC and CNN they'd be able to controll all of the media out of Iraq instead of just most of it.
Disclaimer:
To make a long story short, I don't take any responsibility for anything I post here. It's not news, it's not truth, it's not serious. It's parody. It's satire. It's bitter. It's angsty. Your mother's a *****. You like to jack off dogs. That's right, you heard me. You like to grab that dog by the bone and rub it like a ski pole. Your dad? Gay. Your priest? Straight. **** off and let me post. It's not true, it's all in good fun. Now go away.
To make a long story short, I don't take any responsibility for anything I post here. It's not news, it's not truth, it's not serious. It's parody. It's satire. It's bitter. It's angsty. Your mother's a *****. You like to jack off dogs. That's right, you heard me. You like to grab that dog by the bone and rub it like a ski pole. Your dad? Gay. Your priest? Straight. **** off and let me post. It's not true, it's all in good fun. Now go away.
Eh CNN may be the devil but Al Jazeera makes them seem objective...
Al Jezera is as objective as Fox News. Pretty much exactly as objective. IF the CPA is going to ***** about them they should at least give equal time and ***** about FN.
Disclaimer:
To make a long story short, I don't take any responsibility for anything I post here. It's not news, it's not truth, it's not serious. It's parody. It's satire. It's bitter. It's angsty. Your mother's a *****. You like to jack off dogs. That's right, you heard me. You like to grab that dog by the bone and rub it like a ski pole. Your dad? Gay. Your priest? Straight. **** off and let me post. It's not true, it's all in good fun. Now go away.
To make a long story short, I don't take any responsibility for anything I post here. It's not news, it's not truth, it's not serious. It's parody. It's satire. It's bitter. It's angsty. Your mother's a *****. You like to jack off dogs. That's right, you heard me. You like to grab that dog by the bone and rub it like a ski pole. Your dad? Gay. Your priest? Straight. **** off and let me post. It's not true, it's all in good fun. Now go away.
Most soldiers are in a catch 22. Yes, we are loyal. We have sworn to obey the orders of the officers appointed over us as well as the President of the United States. We do our jobs. Period. We chose to pick up a rifle and do what we have to do, what we are told to do, so that you may sit here and bash the President, policies, and anything else you don't like.
Do I personally agree with why we are over there? No. But I have a different opinion on why we are there. Do I support my boss? Yes. I am a soldier. Whether I agree or not, I still do what I am supposed to do.
The number of soldiers (my freinds, my family...because that is what the military is...a family) losing their lives in Iraq right now is small compared to some other statistics, but when you stand there, in a cathedral, assisting a general officer presenting awards posthumous to a fallen comrade's family, the numbers are huge. Suddenly a face is put to a number. Suddenly your freind, your family member has become a statistic. The terror felt in your heart when you are given a list of names to pull DD 93's. The fear felt when you are in a mandatory formation, moved into a conference room, and the chaplain is present...again.
When you are, for the third time in a month, attending another memorial service for a soldier in your own unit, the numbers are not small. When you see the gold star on the banner in the window in the community that you live in, the numbers are not small. When you are the one that tried to save a life, to check for a pulse, and your hand slips through your freind's stomach, because nothing is left there, the numbers are not small. When you see another freind, who you have watch come through the ranks, experience the joys of marraige and children, who you have gotten to know while standing guard in a tower or a foxhole...confined to a wheelchair for the rest of her life...the numbers are not small.
President Bush HAS personally notified families. Nobody hears of his numerous visits to Walter Reed. No press was present when the President visited with fallen soldier's families at Fort Carson last year. But the way those families felt afterwards, that he took time to talk with them, to cry with them, to listen to the stories of the lives of the soldiers whowere lost, speaks immensly for him.
You may not agree with the American presence in Iraq. That is your right, as everyone is entitled to their own opinions. But please, please do not say that the numbers are small. One is too many. I miss my freinds.
EDIT: I do not apologize for the length of this post. I do apologize for any spelling gnomes I may have missed.
Edited, Wed Apr 14 09:55:17 2004 by WickedLittleWoodElf
Do I personally agree with why we are over there? No. But I have a different opinion on why we are there. Do I support my boss? Yes. I am a soldier. Whether I agree or not, I still do what I am supposed to do.
The number of soldiers (my freinds, my family...because that is what the military is...a family) losing their lives in Iraq right now is small compared to some other statistics, but when you stand there, in a cathedral, assisting a general officer presenting awards posthumous to a fallen comrade's family, the numbers are huge. Suddenly a face is put to a number. Suddenly your freind, your family member has become a statistic. The terror felt in your heart when you are given a list of names to pull DD 93's. The fear felt when you are in a mandatory formation, moved into a conference room, and the chaplain is present...again.
When you are, for the third time in a month, attending another memorial service for a soldier in your own unit, the numbers are not small. When you see the gold star on the banner in the window in the community that you live in, the numbers are not small. When you are the one that tried to save a life, to check for a pulse, and your hand slips through your freind's stomach, because nothing is left there, the numbers are not small. When you see another freind, who you have watch come through the ranks, experience the joys of marraige and children, who you have gotten to know while standing guard in a tower or a foxhole...confined to a wheelchair for the rest of her life...the numbers are not small.
President Bush HAS personally notified families. Nobody hears of his numerous visits to Walter Reed. No press was present when the President visited with fallen soldier's families at Fort Carson last year. But the way those families felt afterwards, that he took time to talk with them, to cry with them, to listen to the stories of the lives of the soldiers whowere lost, speaks immensly for him.
You may not agree with the American presence in Iraq. That is your right, as everyone is entitled to their own opinions. But please, please do not say that the numbers are small. One is too many. I miss my freinds.
EDIT: I do not apologize for the length of this post. I do apologize for any spelling gnomes I may have missed.
Edited, Wed Apr 14 09:55:17 2004 by WickedLittleWoodElf
Yes, we will respond overwhelmingly to violence in Iraq. After all, what would you have us do, respond underwhelmingly? Hmmm, yeah, that sounds like a good idea...
/rolleyes
Totem
/rolleyes
Totem
Would it be possible to respond whelmingly, right on the button?
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
Is there such a point when using deadly violence? It's like a switch, either it's on or it's off with "on" being excessive and "off" meaning you are dead because you didn't pull the trigger fast enough, long enough, and with a limitless supply of ammunition.
It all comes down to this: We should have gone in broke lots of things, killed lots of people, changed regimes, taken some Mesopotamian aritfacts, then left. It's not our business to baby anybody after pissing us off. If we did that and did it overwhelmingly, after say, ten very public diplomatic warnings the world would steer clear of jihading us, or rattling their sabres.
If X does Y, then Z happens. Pretty straightforward. Decimation worked for the Romans for a thousand years, it'll work for us as well.
Totem
It all comes down to this: We should have gone in broke lots of things, killed lots of people, changed regimes, taken some Mesopotamian aritfacts, then left. It's not our business to baby anybody after pissing us off. If we did that and did it overwhelmingly, after say, ten very public diplomatic warnings the world would steer clear of jihading us, or rattling their sabres.
If X does Y, then Z happens. Pretty straightforward. Decimation worked for the Romans for a thousand years, it'll work for us as well.
Totem
Yeah, my comment was meant as a joke. Next time I'll pepper it with winkie smiley faces for ya 
I agree with your first post though. It's hard to measure out whelm and I imagine too much beats too little.
I agree with your first post though. It's hard to measure out whelm and I imagine too much beats too little.
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
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