Alright,
to clear things up, I just gotta say that dragoons are a pretty decent Damage dealing choice. a lot of people don't like to invite dragoons cause they'd rather have a Sam or War or Drk, but a Dragoon is just as good to have as either of them. first, Dragoons do a good amount of damage with a lance. Second their wyvern does damage and does a weaponskill of there own. Not to mention Dragoon AF is one of the best looking in the game. So let's not bad mouth or decriminate against dragoons, because they are just as important as any other job.
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DRK, WAR, and RNG are all superior in DoT from DRG. Just check what happens when a DRK with the best gear gets compared to a DRG with the best gear. DRK owns the DRG. WAR as well. Sure DRG get accuracy bonus job traits, but look at it this way: DRK can use Guillotine at level 60 for over 900 points of damage. What can DRG do that's comparable? Wheeling Thrust for 400? Yeah, nothx.
DRG is a gimped damage dealer in my own opinion. My set party is DRK PLD RNG BLM RDM WHM, and I'd never trade my set party DRK for a DRG. Ever. Add to the fact that they can't renkei as well with other jobs as SAM, WAR, or DRK, they can't end light (read: in a high-damage weapon skill) and in their place for light you can use RNG with Heavy Shot or Arching Arrow for at least 200 more points of damage and more DoT, better pulling ability, and more survivability, and you've got one gimped DD. Sure they can hold their own until the 50s, but after that they've got second-rate parties and gimped damage to look forward to.
(This is not saying that DRGs are bad players; I know a lot of DRG and I respect most of their playing ability. It's a straight fact that the DRG job as a DD is gimped though.)
DRG is a gimped damage dealer in my own opinion. My set party is DRK PLD RNG BLM RDM WHM, and I'd never trade my set party DRK for a DRG. Ever. Add to the fact that they can't renkei as well with other jobs as SAM, WAR, or DRK, they can't end light (read: in a high-damage weapon skill) and in their place for light you can use RNG with Heavy Shot or Arching Arrow for at least 200 more points of damage and more DoT, better pulling ability, and more survivability, and you've got one gimped DD. Sure they can hold their own until the 50s, but after that they've got second-rate parties and gimped damage to look forward to.
(This is not saying that DRGs are bad players; I know a lot of DRG and I respect most of their playing ability. It's a straight fact that the DRG job as a DD is gimped though.)
Ever seen Sey pimp slap the Sea Horror by herself? Drg/Whm.
I'd provide the link so you can actually watch the video but there site is down. Have it on my home comp.
Edited, Fri Apr 1 18:46:17 2005 by johnma
I'd provide the link so you can actually watch the video but there site is down. Have it on my home comp.
Edited, Fri Apr 1 18:46:17 2005 by johnma
I have that video, and honestly...I'm not impressed. That shows DRG/WHM's soloing power, but not their power in a party. I could tell you I've seen a NIN/RNG own the Sea Horror at 60, or that a NIN can solo an IT at any level past 37, but that doesn't mean they're a good damage dealer (just so happens that they are...but that's beside the point).
You need to understand the difference between being able to do something cool and being valuable and a great asset to a party.
You need to understand the difference between being able to do something cool and being valuable and a great asset to a party.
It doesn't matter to me. My main thing is a DRK can do more than just great amounts of damage, but absorb spells anyone? Most importantly Stun? Also other small support spells such as tractor and the fact their drain can do good withdrawals? So it's more than just how much HP you can hit off the mob. I mean, Absorb Agi to take down evasion, Absorb VIT to take down defense and Absorb Dex to take down mobs ACC are all beneficial to a party as well.
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I'd never trade my set party DRK for a DRG. Ever.
Thats a pretty harsh put down to all the dragoons out there... if your set Drk is who I think it is.
Couldn't resist ;)
43 posts
meh, I'm sam but I like drg. I especially like drg for when I sub thf. <3 super jump. honestly I think alot of people ignore pt setup. every job has a pt that they function with better than another job. DRK is not the be-end all of dmg nor RNG for that matter.
For renkei, when I pt my sam , I see drg keeps up with my tp better than any other job. That's just my experience ^^. I didn't bother to look at the name of the poster who said they would never replace the drk with a drg, but I guess they haven't thought about the fact that drk works for their pt, because the setup is good for drk.
<edit> oh my, I've made a social blunder, I didn't see that theo was the one that posted that. oh wells. ^^ <edit>
Edited, Fri Apr 1 20:44:07 2005 by TeamJnag
For renkei, when I pt my sam , I see drg keeps up with my tp better than any other job. That's just my experience ^^. I didn't bother to look at the name of the poster who said they would never replace the drk with a drg, but I guess they haven't thought about the fact that drk works for their pt, because the setup is good for drk.
<edit> oh my, I've made a social blunder, I didn't see that theo was the one that posted that. oh wells. ^^ <edit>
Edited, Fri Apr 1 20:44:07 2005 by TeamJnag
Scholar
25 posts
Let's not forget that Dragoons are great at managing hate. Their ability Super Jump is slightly overlooked. Also, the abilities their wyverns get based on their sub job makes them not just plain DDs, but versatile support melee fighters. Just one example is white mage subbers becoming last second life savers, what with the Healing Breaths.
Get out of your box in thinking that there are only a few roles available to a party. There are many different(and successful) experience party setups.
That includes Dragoons.
Edited, Sat Apr 2 06:27:10 2005 by Zeng
Get out of your box in thinking that there are only a few roles available to a party. There are many different(and successful) experience party setups.
That includes Dragoons.
Edited, Sat Apr 2 06:27:10 2005 by Zeng
I'm willing to bet everyone claiming DRKs are better at DoT than DRGs have never run a parser and/or have totally ignored wyvern damage.
I'll admit DRKs put out impressive damage numbers, and they SC well. I'm not putting them down at all, but they are not better than DRGs, merely different. You put an equally skilled and geared DRG and DRK in a party and by the time the DRK has landed their next crazy damage hit, the DRG and wyvern will have generally caught them up by whiffing less.
DRKs have extremely useful ABS spells and stun, but anyone who's ptd with a DRG, THF and a good tank post 35 will know that it's the best and safest SATA setup available. A DRG who knows how to use their jumps properly becomes a very effective hate controller.
As Sey was mentioned earlier in this thread, I'm gonna steal her quote again, as it sums up my feelings on the "DRG suck" issue perfectly.
"Don't let anyone ever tell you Dragoons suck, ever. Those who say it don't know what they're talking about, and those who believe it don't know what they're missing."
"Always end on a quote"
-American History X ;p
I'll admit DRKs put out impressive damage numbers, and they SC well. I'm not putting them down at all, but they are not better than DRGs, merely different. You put an equally skilled and geared DRG and DRK in a party and by the time the DRK has landed their next crazy damage hit, the DRG and wyvern will have generally caught them up by whiffing less.
DRKs have extremely useful ABS spells and stun, but anyone who's ptd with a DRG, THF and a good tank post 35 will know that it's the best and safest SATA setup available. A DRG who knows how to use their jumps properly becomes a very effective hate controller.
As Sey was mentioned earlier in this thread, I'm gonna steal her quote again, as it sums up my feelings on the "DRG suck" issue perfectly.
"Don't let anyone ever tell you Dragoons suck, ever. Those who say it don't know what they're talking about, and those who believe it don't know what they're missing."
"Always end on a quote"
-American History X ;p
Heh...I run a parser, and I have since I was level 31 on RNG. Every party I've been in with a DRG, SAM, DRK, WAR, etc has all been recorded, and I've done extensive comparisons. While sure, I'd take a DRG when I'm partying as NIN (if I have to tank instead of damage dealing) as RNG, we don't renkei well with DRG and having to use Sniper Shot instead of Slug Shot at level 60 just to make a decent level 2 renkei is rediculous. That's crappy WS damage, where instead there could have been an 800+ Guillotine to Slug Shot for over 800 with a Fragmentation for 400+. Add to that DRK's Absorb spells, and well...I think I've said all I need to say.
Gailen, you're right. I'd easily trade Xano for a DRG. Any DRGs at 60 that need a set party? XD
Gailen, you're right. I'd easily trade Xano for a DRG. Any DRGs at 60 that need a set party? XD
I'll concede one point, DRG doesn't renkei well with RNG and that does suck. But it doesn't mean either of those jobs do.
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Gailen, you're right. I'd easily trade Xano for a DRG. Any DRGs at 60 that need a set party? XD
You'd probably have stuns going off on time for once, even if Leg Sweep is TP dependant >_>
You haven't ran a parser with me ;)
Wow this is kind of off the subject a bit but in most xp partys over 60 anyway you have a thf and well if you have a thf. Now if you are trying to use ranger in a SC with a drg well than thats just plain stupid because a thf and a drg can SC together and basicly put your ranger ws to shame. Dont take my word for it go out make a party with a thf and drg in it and watch how well they work. Drg usless lmfao thats one of the best jokes i have heard yet. Thats like saying oh we dont need a whm lets just get us a red to do all the healing and if someone dies they can just take a R1.
I was in a PT in CN, and we had a DRG and THF. They did work incredibly well. I think the Skillchain was Double thrust ---> Viperbite for distortion. They were completely kicking the crap out of the crawlers.
I also suffer from the big damage that darks put out. I am a monk and everyone doesn't seem to notice that I attack twice
I also suffer from the big damage that darks put out. I am a monk and everyone doesn't seem to notice that I attack twice
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Now if you are trying to use ranger in a SC with a drg well than thats just plain stupid because a thf and a drg can SC together and basicly put your ranger ws to shame.
I've been in a pt with my ranger and had a DRG and THF in my pt. Sidewinder did about as much damage as their skillchain alone including each of their weaponskills.
Odd that many people that I know that were lv75 DRG switched to WHM or NIN because they knew DRG weren't useful. Two people in my LS that were once DRG can vouch for that.
Was in a pt in Gustav fighting dragons on the lower section with 2 DRG. Sad to say that the second they got replaced, we killed things faster.
Also referring back to the above quote, you saying we should use a DRG and THF instead of a DRG? So in theory, you believe a THF, THF, DRG, DRG, (tank), (Mage-type) is the best type of pt? I believe that even before DRG got their "almighty" Penta, barrage outdamaged them.
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I was in a PT in CN, and we had a DRG and THF. They did work incredibly well. I think the Skillchain was Double thrust ---> Viperbite for distortion. They were completely kicking the crap out of the crawlers.
Skillchain and the DRG are two seperate things. There are many ways to make distortion. Chances are it went so fast because you had the mages MBing and it wasn't all due to the DRG's damage.
Man enough with stupid rng vs drk vs drg crap. Rangers do great dmg. Hey so do drk knights. I've been a drg now for 56 lvs. Closing in on 57. And while hey its true i dont put out insane amounts of dmg like barrage does its fine with me. Usually in pt set ups Im used as a second voke or for Sata set up. Thats my job. We all contribute something to a pt set up. With its the Pld just taking a beating left and right. Or the Whm cure his/her *** off.
My point being we all do something and while it may not be Put out a huge amount of dmg in 1 shot or DoT we all do something to contribute.
My point being we all do something and while it may not be Put out a huge amount of dmg in 1 shot or DoT we all do something to contribute.
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Also referring back to the above quote, you saying we should use a DRG and THF instead of a DRG? So in theory, you believe a THF, THF, DRG, DRG, (tank), (Mage-type) is the best type of pt? I believe that even before DRG got their "almighty" Penta, barrage outdamaged them.
Lol ok lets break ths down a little mybe you will see what I was geting at
#1) I stated if you try and use a DRG to SC with a RNG than thats just stupid. Any player that has been around and have played this game knows that if you have a DRG and a THF in the same party than they work the best together.
#2) So in theory, you believe a THF, THF, DRG, DRG, (tank), (Mage-type) is the best type of pt? Wow where did you come up with that because that was in no way what i was saying. In fact I dident state what i believe to be the best setup for a party. If you want to know the truth about it well than here it is.My favorite party setup is what everone calls a scrap party (this includes the jobs that noone wants do to something they have aginst a player or a player's job) the reason why is simple. First off you have people who wait hours on end for a party invite. Now after they get a party these people are almost always on top of their game. Lol its sad to have to tell you this but most of the partys that you get an invite to and are a damn fine xp party, well I am willing to bet most strted out as a scrap party.
#3) I believe that even before DRG got their "almighty" Penta, barrage outdamaged them. Wow thats a good call but i do believe you missed 1 thing here. Barrage is almost like a rangers 2 hour is it not? Secone yes that outdamaged it but whats the recast time 3 min? So ok rng hit that but what if it misses? and even if it does hit than what happenes? Lol if you have a good tank they can get hate back if not the rng becomes a mp hog so the mage can keep them alive.
#4) I've been in a pt with my ranger and had a DRG and THF in my pt. Sidewinder did about as much damage as their skillchain alone including each of their weaponskills.
Umm...lol this is funny for 1 reason sidewinder does what 1k-1,300 damage if it lands well ya thats alot of damage no dought but i think you missed the part where a thf uses sata dancing edge or shark bite hiting for the same amount. If its damage you want to compair than well thf can keep up or do more damage than a ranger so thats not fair to say maybe the thf and drg you had in your party were not as fine oiled as others. Just because drh cant keep up dont mean they usless.
#5) Last but not least but it looks to me as if my last post was missread. Maybe you just took it wrong, well what ever the case all i was saying is that if you have the right set up and people that know how to play their job than a drg is not that bad to have.
If you dont like DRG thats your deal but wait you will get into a damn fine group with a drg and a thf that know how to play and maybe than will you relize just how good a drg is to have in a party.
Wildchild, try RNG and THF. You'll get twice the damage output, I promise.
Also, Barrage is a 5 minute recast timer. With the advent of using Squid Sushi in leveling RNG, Barrage almost always lands full hits. Most RNG after 55 use Barrage after a Slug Shot or Sidewinder, so if there's need for them to kill the mob quickly, they can--easily. That's another reason why RNG normally party with PLD and sub NIN. Blink, Flash, and Cover are all used to their utmost with a RNG in a party. Of course, if there's a THF, you don't need to worry about taking hate as a RNG unless you go all-out, using Slug Shot -> Barrage -> Slug Shot.
As for a THF doing more damage in a party situation...I laughed my *** off at that. THF is not a DD. THF is hate management with good renkei closers, nothing else. If RNG was just weapon skills, get a BLM instead. RNG is DoT, for those that don't know. We put up huge numbers on renkei, sure, but our main damage comes from hitting for over 100 on every shot. Having the higest accuracy of any job in the game helps, too (parsed in my last party at 96% including melee hits with Acc -12 and 99% ranged accuracy including weapon skills). I've partied with some of the best-equipped THF on the server at my level (go check Domon's exp gear and tell me that sucks and be serious about it...Scorpion Harness, Snipers, Hairpin, Boots, etc etc etc) and while Domon can put up insane numbers on Dancing Edge, he can't compare to my DoT. You can try to prove me wrong all you want, but you'll never outdamage a decent RNG, regardless of your skill in THF. I'm suprised you didn't know that, being level 67.
All that aside, WAR, DRK, and RNG can all renkei for more damage with a THF as opposed to a DRG, if I'm not mistaken. I have yet to party with a DRG that can put up numbers equal to a WAR, DRK, or RNG, and until I do, I'm going to continue to call DRG gimped. Not the people who play it, but the job itself.
Edited, Sun Apr 3 19:11:22 2005 by Theophany
Also, Barrage is a 5 minute recast timer. With the advent of using Squid Sushi in leveling RNG, Barrage almost always lands full hits. Most RNG after 55 use Barrage after a Slug Shot or Sidewinder, so if there's need for them to kill the mob quickly, they can--easily. That's another reason why RNG normally party with PLD and sub NIN. Blink, Flash, and Cover are all used to their utmost with a RNG in a party. Of course, if there's a THF, you don't need to worry about taking hate as a RNG unless you go all-out, using Slug Shot -> Barrage -> Slug Shot.
As for a THF doing more damage in a party situation...I laughed my *** off at that. THF is not a DD. THF is hate management with good renkei closers, nothing else. If RNG was just weapon skills, get a BLM instead. RNG is DoT, for those that don't know. We put up huge numbers on renkei, sure, but our main damage comes from hitting for over 100 on every shot. Having the higest accuracy of any job in the game helps, too (parsed in my last party at 96% including melee hits with Acc -12 and 99% ranged accuracy including weapon skills). I've partied with some of the best-equipped THF on the server at my level (go check Domon's exp gear and tell me that sucks and be serious about it...Scorpion Harness, Snipers, Hairpin, Boots, etc etc etc) and while Domon can put up insane numbers on Dancing Edge, he can't compare to my DoT. You can try to prove me wrong all you want, but you'll never outdamage a decent RNG, regardless of your skill in THF. I'm suprised you didn't know that, being level 67.
All that aside, WAR, DRK, and RNG can all renkei for more damage with a THF as opposed to a DRG, if I'm not mistaken. I have yet to party with a DRG that can put up numbers equal to a WAR, DRK, or RNG, and until I do, I'm going to continue to call DRG gimped. Not the people who play it, but the job itself.
Edited, Sun Apr 3 19:11:22 2005 by Theophany
Dont put dragoons down. I am one. Every drk Ive seen outdamaged by a single hit but missed often and soul eater costed mp. Drg/whm can back up and damage deal for dirt cheap mp. Drg/sam can spam so many ws's that it doesnt matter if 1 rng does a 800 barrage. Im sure that drg/sam can get 2 ws's out for 300 each buit no one ever thinks about the wyvern. There damage add is larger than most think. If Drk did 1000 damage than whats the chances that hate will get off him. If the drk dies of the attack it causes more downtime, even if he doesnt the mages will waste mp. Basically drgs are low cost ( in gil& mp) DD's that only need skill to be good. Now then I have nothing against drks but you seem to have some against us. I dont put down a job till Ive played it. I havent been a drk so I have no clue. Tell me Theophany have you even unlocked the drg job?
Edited, Sun Apr 3 19:05:13 2005 by shykin
Edited, Sun Apr 3 19:05:13 2005 by shykin
Shykin, I have roughly double the exp in my main as opposed to yours. I've partied with DRGs and had parsers on the entire time. I build TP faster than a DRG/SAM, and my WS goes off for a hell of a lot more. Needless to say, I beat DRG when I'm not going all out. When I do go all-out, I pull hate. How often does a 61 DRG pull hate? But you're right, to play DRG and be decent you need skill, because the job is gimped. That's all I've been saying in my posts. You have better alternatives than DRG, no matter what. Why do you think so many DRG give up the job after 50?
Edit: Oh, and I love the trolls that are rating down my posts. Just shows that I'm hitting close to a truth you don't want to hear.
Edited, Sun Apr 3 20:10:46 2005 by Theophany
Edit: Oh, and I love the trolls that are rating down my posts. Just shows that I'm hitting close to a truth you don't want to hear.
Edited, Sun Apr 3 20:10:46 2005 by Theophany
You have a point SE hasnt given anything really good to drg's but to really depends on the player. Also my sig is months old. my drg is lv53 close 54 and has af feet ready to be equiped. your job is 61 and your not double my exp (atleast i hope not). Every job has a up side and a downside. If we even got some more acc bonus's too or better armor choices we would be much better. And yet they over buff jobs like thf. You have this opinion since you have never seen a truely good drg. I just hope your opinion changes
Total EXP at 61: 413,350
Total EXP at 53: 264,350
Total EXP at 51: 243,350
Yeah, you have a lot less exp than me.
Also, I saw one of the best DRG on this server before he quit. Zariko was one of the best, and you can ask loads of people and they'd agree. The fact still remains that DRG is gimped, and no matter how good you are, you can't pass another decently skilled player in DoT.
Total EXP at 53: 264,350
Total EXP at 51: 243,350
Yeah, you have a lot less exp than me.
Also, I saw one of the best DRG on this server before he quit. Zariko was one of the best, and you can ask loads of people and they'd agree. The fact still remains that DRG is gimped, and no matter how good you are, you can't pass another decently skilled player in DoT.
29 posts
I think some of you are taking this game a bit too seriously. When you consider things, yes, a drg is very very very gimped. Everyone knows that a rng and a drk can easily out damage a drg and a thf. Big deal. When you take a close look at things, monsters die no matter how fast you do damage or how much damage you do. Now, i admit, I am a drg, and I dont like the fact that my job of choice does less damage than a drk or a rng, but I enjoy my job anyway even though I can't do the desired ammounts of damage. Thats the point of this game, to have fun. Sometimes you people consider this game an extension of your own lives, and I'd say, try to find a life in the real world before you create a fantasy one in this game.
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