LVL 80 Cap? (sketchy info at best) Would you switch subs?Follow

I seriously doubt they'll do it. This discussion has been had many many times and it comes down to this: too many jobs would be completely unbalanced if they raised the cap, if only because of what they would acquire by having a level 40 sub instead of a level 37. I won't change my sub because I don't believe any sub works for SAM but WAR, but I think a hell of a lot of people would be pretty annoyed if they skewed things like that. But, I guess we'll see. I wonder what the Maat quest to remove the level 75 cap would be...

Make them raise the cap to 82! XD

Dia> Fafnir
Tora readies healing breath 4.

.....God yes.

I say they should only raise the level cap if new missions and quests call for it. As things stand right now, everything in the game can be done with a lvl 75 character/party/alliance. The whole merit points system would be useless as well, and would only **** people off if all they're work for those stat increases was for nothing. I think that was they're way of giving in to people wanting to go higher than 75 without actually raising the level cap.

rofl, Merodi ;)

I would love to be able to cast Warp II as RDM main. That would be...supah nice.
Chainspell --> Warp II. Don't make the red mage mad. ^^

I agree that red mage would be the big subjob at that point, for once...it's not a lot of good as a sub for many jobs up to then, at least not compared to whm, which gets most of the relevant spells earlier. Our hat still rules though.

All though I think it would be fun to see all of the lvl 75 people race to get to eighty first, I honestly don't think SE will do that. Or if they do, at least not right now.

The first thing that pops into mind is Dynamis...

The mobs in Dynamis are designed to be challenging to players at level 75. The stat increases beyond that level, through five more levels would most likely make dynamis too easy. Sure, you could increase the difficulty of dynamis mobs, but then what about the character levels at level 65? That doesn't mesh too well. They would most likely have to raise the minimium dynamis cap also.

Second, the level effect would ripple across the higher level areas. There are areas designed in the game that even level 75 characters get aggro at. At five levels plus that, what area would present an aggro challenge to the players? It would make it too easy to go anywhere in the game, for there would be no fear whatsoever of aggro. To fix this, they would have to adjust the level of EVERY mob in an area upwards or downwards (which would affect the ah prices of those mob drops for one) or create whole new areas to accompany this level cap change. And if you create new areas, you run into the problem of ability to access it.

The HNM fights I imagine would be affected also. Currently, it is possible to kill Kirin and his ******* gods with 22 people. With another five levels, it could become possible to kill the HNM with only one allience. Take various other HNMs, and you can see the problem there also. It might present less of a challenge to the various HNMLS that exist out there. To fix this, SE would have to create NEW HNMs, or would have to adjust the levels of the ones that currently exist.

Equipment. Okay, AF2 is nice stuff (some of it). Okay, uncursed armour (most of it) is nice too. But what about the people that don't have it? You HAVE to provide alternate armour for these people. If you look at the AH, you can see this plainly with alternative armour for the first AF set. But how would you acquire this armor? Crafting? The current crafting system is carefully structured. You would have to most likely create NEW levels of crafting, and change the merit point system for this. And the materials for this new armour? Where would it come from? These questions become more and more puzzling as one probes deeper.

The subjob question becomes relevant too with a raise in the level cap, but that has already been addressed in full by the various posters above, so I won't bother talking about that.

To raise the level cap further would require most likely an expansion pack on the size of Zilart, with general system updates to match, to be able to accomidate all of these problems that crop up. In order for SE to keep the high leveled people interested in the game, they have to offer them something that can challenge them. And this would require a lot of work on their part that I cannot see outside of an expansion pack.

And for the first 79 levels of the game, Blm's and Whm's would still sub Whm and Blm respectively (except for the Blm's who sub Rdm already, which seems to work fine). This would ONLY affect play at level 80... and no more so than, say, all Melee's subbing Sam for Spirits Within on Kirin: if the tactic works, use it. You'll be giving up a lot of spells by subbing Rdm, which is a tradeoff for the extra MP to cast what you do have. At level 80, you'd be fighting monsters so tough, every mage would probably need convert, or at least could benefit greatly from it (just like a lot of Melee jobs benefit greatly from Sneak Attack post 30, but in doing so lose a lot by giving up War sub). And remember that Refresh would still be out of their hands until the cap was lifted to 85 (since Refresh is a level 41 spell).

There's nothing wrong with tactics changing to meet the needs of higher level. Again, take a deep breath, it won't affect the game until the level where people can actually get convert.

Then again... War/Nin only really shines at 74... but it doesn't stop people from wanting War/Nin tanks, even at level 45 before they even have Dual Wield >_>

Nights, you bring up a lot of good points. As far as all of the current top-level activities (Dynamis, god fights, etc), there would have to be new activities geared for the next set of limit breakers for it to be successful. Since those extra five leves could well make the existing activies too easy, a level cap could always be placed on them, meaning that the current tactics would remain set in stone. Thats sort of a quick and dirty fix, but it would preserve the current situation without unbalancing "endgame" activities (which would no longer really be endgame if new activites were introduced).

The equipment issue is another good one. All I can say is that SE absolutely loves to add new gear. For a virtual world, it's a very materialistic one. You're litterally defined by your gear in this game, so if the cap was ever raised, there would be a flood of new goodies to fill the gaps (including new spells).

And agreed, it would probably require an expansion pack due to the sheer volume of stuff that would have to be added... although they could always start off small and build from there (since it would take a long time just to get from 75 to 80, based on XP requirements). Hopefully along with new jobs. (No, the new jobs wouldn't be necessary, but when you have half a dozen or so DD classes all in competition with each other, having a few more viable tank or mage classes wouldn't be such a bad thing). I doubt anyone thought the game needed a Blink Tank before someone figured out Ninja could tank and not get hit :)

as long as we're making wishes, i'd like to go ahead and wish big.

let's see Blue Mage make a comeback. ooooooh yes. it makes sense, too, as BLU and BST would be best friends. BLU/WHM and BST/NIN maybe TEH BEST PARTAY EVAR.

shut up. i can dream.

I had this arguement out over a month ago in another thread and I remained unconvinced that a level-cap increase would unbalance the job systems.

While I myself have neither the wit or wisdom to be able to detail the balancings necessary to allow this without completely undermining the current balance between jobs, what little I do have brings to me hints and shades of ways in which it could be done.

So while I feel fairly convinced in my own mind that a level cap increase is possible, I cannot clearly put such conceptions into words that might convince others.

The biggest area of contention is, as ever, the Red Mage job class and its job-specific spells such as Refresh. While I cannot prove anything, it is my belief, flawed or not, that in many cases the addition of more advanced versions of such spells would alleviate such concerns.

The counter-arguement has been made that there is a limit to how much mp (with Refresh being the prime example of choice) one would need. To this I can only point to Mage's Ballad II, which became available after the cap was raised from 50 to 75. It seems to me that a way can be found.

Regardless of your opinions however, I feel very certain, with somewhat more proof, that Square-Enix is at the least investigating whether or not a level-cap increase is feasible.

There exist in the software of the game a considerable number of names recognized by the /recast command that simply do not exist within the game we know.

Some discussion on this topic can be found here.

Here is a quotation of my investigations that I pursued when that thread enflamed renewed interest in the subject of level-cap increases.



This speaks volumes to me specifically because I can find no other explanation for their presence in the game in any form.

There is the tried and true explanation that such spell names (like the oft-referenced Meteor) are from certain mobs who can cast such spells (like Behemoth), but the sheer volume defies that.

Unless some obscene mobs have yet to be uncovered who can cast such spells exist another explanation must be found for their presence. And even the possibility of undiscovered mobs who use such spells in my mind is unlikely. For example, what use would any mob have of the Ninjitsu Tonko: San" or Curaga V? Unless the dynamics of gameplay are to change drastically in certain CoP areas I find this exceedingly unlikely.

Also the sheer volume and type of spells is more than they would conceivably add without raising the level cap.

It may be that my own preconceptions blind me to another explanation, but it seems likely to me that Square-Enix is at the least toying with the idea.

Adding further credance to this possibility is this: On friday, Refresh II was recognized by /recast. Now it is not, though all the other spells I previously documented are still there.

I find it unlikely that they would remove one and not all if they were an error or anything similar. They appear at the least to be toying around with it.

This however brings me back to an initial concern many have, the unbalancing of the Red Mage job class. It may be that my belief was in fact wrong, and no way through the addition of a Refresh II could the job be balanced such that with a RDM in your pt the subbing of that job would become superfluous, and that they have turned to other ideas.

Or it may be that they will botch things horribly and suddenly RDM will become useless and unloved as a main after lvl 80 or so. Wiser heads than mine might know, but I do not.

For the record, I hope sincerely that if they do raise the level cap that no such fate befalls the RDMs.

Just thoughts.

Edited, Mon Jan 3 05:38:18 2005 by nataraja

Just my 2 cents...I believe the Auto Collection picked up that level 80 gear because the LeadGM is level 82 or something similar. Their weapon and armor is different from Judgement armor, at least that is what I was lead to believe.

Rather than reading all the posts on why or why not the cap could be raised, I think I'll just answer the topic question. No, I'd stay with WHM sub. Haste and Teleport-Altep from sub? {Yes Please} =)

You broached the debate of the level cap yourself actually.



Had you not made reference to the idea the hijacks may or may not have arisen.

Thank you, though, for making us your guinea pigs.

To answer the original question, from my perspective now, I doubt I would change my sub (WAR).

I just happened to see this post in the Server Forum List and it intrigued me. I'm a BST and i don't know much about other job abilities, but i would love for SE to increase the lvl cap to 80 just because that means its not over once i hit 75.
Another think i spoke with a friend the other day about is a "tri-job". My friend said it would never happen because it would make many jobs invincible. My counter is you would have to be lvl 75 to get the quest and it would be uber-hard.
I just don't want the game to end.

No, you're right Theo, everyone gets Dual Wield at level 20 by subbing nin (it's a level 10 ability).

I meant to say "Dual Wield II", which is a level 25 Nin trait (so you get it at 50 with /nin). Before Dual Wield II, Warrior is better off subbing Monk and using a greataxe for DD or a shield + axe for tanking. The reason being that without the innate haste granted by DW II, swinging two axes is as slow as swinging one big one (or even slower if you're using picks).

And you're absolutely right, /nin is one of the best DD subs a War can have. The problem is, a lot of people haven't quite realized that War/Nin's can't blink tank effectively until 74... so we get 6 shadows at the beginning of the fight, maybe 3 to 6 more if we're lucky and get a recast or two. After that, we're basically a War/Mnk without all the hate grabbing tools and without the HP or Vitality boosts. We can still do the job, but don't expect us to never get hit, and in some situations, I think War/Mnk would even be better for hate-keeping.

But people want War/Nin's when there's no Pld's or Nin's lfg, because the mentality is that War/Nin is the only viable tank combo for Warrior past a certain level. Not everyone thinks like this, but it's prevalent enough that you pretty much can't find groups anymore as a War/Mnk past 45 or so.

I guess I was drawing a parallel here with what may happen if subbing Rdm becomes vital at level 80: lower level players will read on the forums or hear by word of mouth that Rdm is the best sub for Whm or Blm (forgetting that we're talking about endgame) and suddenly Whm/Rdm could become the craze, even though it doesn't really become a stellar combo till level 80.

But I don't really think that would happen. Just playing devil's advocate to my own post :)


[Edit]: Wanted to comment on this, but I forgot the first time around ><



That's exactly my point. It wouldn't affect gameplay at all until level 80 (the new endgame, lets say). Up until then, Rdm wouldn't offer very much that it doesn't already offer.

It would be useful for parties out to get merit points, or for HNM battles and such, but as far as the usual XP parties, go, it would affect a very small section of the game's population.

But it MAY not stop people from subbing Rdm at lower levels. Thats where my War/Nin analogy came in. Until level 50 and Dual Wield II (or 48 if you count Viking Axes), Nin isn't a very good sub for Warrior. It's doable, but you can tank better as /mnk, or dd better as /thf. But after 40 or so, it took me hours to find groups as a War/Mnk, where as when I switched to War/Nin, I got invites three minutes after I would put my flag up.

So the theoretical debate world (I love this phrase :D) can have an influence on the "real world" of gameplay, even if it's through people's misconceptions.

Edited, Wed Jan 5 17:31:13 2005 by GailC