What the hell is wrong with you people...[rant]Follow

do any of you play the game?

just wondering, cause you seem to be debating more then actually playing

^_^

This has gone from a reasonably decent conversation to an all out Dragoon bash. Aside from the fact of being disgusted, I've been very much entertained. I've read over and over that DRK, RNG, and MNK will outdamage a DRG. Hey, It's true. A MNK and a RNG will, But a DRK with GREAT gear can't come close to the accuracy of a Dragoon. Use a Jack-O-Lantern? Go ahead and accept that gimped damage while you have THF subbed and I have Double attack and berserk that happens to activate every 3 or so attacks, I'll eat mithkabobs too. Goodbye DRK.

I'm great friends with a bunch of MNK's, We'll party every now and then for ***** and giggles.

Invited a RNG to set last night, Sure they did 100+ a hit but the EXP sucked ***. 5 hours and only 3k xp. With the DRG, THF, BLM DD set up my set can make a good 10k in that time. I invited the RNG as a pickup and a little variation from the BLM.

Isn't everyone that yerns for the endgame comment, save for the WHM, RDM, and BLM, just Spirits ******** Perhaps let's talk about KB. A Paladin or WAR is gonna run around Kiting him, what's everyone else doing? The RNG is shooting the ******* in kite. The BLM is nuking. But, What about that Samurai, and that Dark Knight? That DRK gonna stun him to death? Hell no, Some don't even know WTF stun is. I'd gladly be a spirits *****, That damage is nothing to sneeze at, Next.

A Dragoon is VERY useful in a party setting at any level with their "mediocre" damage. There is no job that can shed hate like a Dragoon can, I can SJ and HJ. High jump removes half of your hate, I'm sure you knew that though since you're all obviously Dragoon experts. Can a RNG shed their own hate from a 1k DMG Sidewinder? Nope, But they can take DMG and get owned in three and a half seconds. Can a Dragoon shed their own hate without taking one point of damage from a 500 penta? Yep, And we do it well. We can save the WHM so much MP it's not even funny.

And now, As for you that enjoy bashing DRG every chance you get...Go play. As for you that've played DRG and quit because you think it's gimped, There are still people that love to play Dragoon and know how to play the Job(yes, That's directed at you Timbera.)


Until next time, STFU.

Zariko, I agree this has turned into a bit of a DRG bash, but many of the things they state are obvious facts. I'll just try to reply to a couple of things in your post.




This is why a DRK can very efficiently sub THF, particularaly past 66. SATA Spinning Slash is incredibly, absolutely incredible hate control, and with SATA, you have a guranteed 100% critical hit. As far as DRK accuracy, I've been very impressed with the ACC many DRK have with 2x Snipers, Haubergon/Hauberk, and RG Collar/Merman's Gorget. DRK/THF offers a lot in terms of hate control, although it is not shedding as a DRG does, it does it even more efficiently, by placing the hate onto your tank. Although what you say about a RNG is very true, the only time a RNG should be getting hit is waiting for SC to finish, and with Utsusemi, those 3 seconds, they will typically be just fine.

Furthermore, this is just a bit of advice, but if you want your arguement to have more merit, its a good idea to avoid acronyms like "STFU", as they generally don't really add much to your post.

About the Jumps...I see no reason to consider that a bonus unless the DRG is the trick buddy, in which case, yeah, great. A DD DRG shouldn't have to worry about gathering hate from a good tank. The only jobs I see pull hate are mages and RNGs, and DRKs that spam Souleater. DRGs are powerful and great at DOT, but that's just it, DOT. Rarely do they deal enough damage to draw hate from any respectible tank. A jump ensures they probably won't ever get it, but it's unnecessary to worry about it.

Again, don't misunderstand, I *LIKE* DRGs, but they need to stop boasting strenghts that they don't have.

And I have to agree with the "STFU" remark. Don't come into an argument trying to sound mature and knowledgeable and then finish with AOLese.

My cousin's old set:
DD=DRG/THF/BLM
Exp=9-13k in 4-5 hours

My set:
DD=DRK/RNG/BLM
Exp=25-30k in 5-6 hours



Wow.... 10k in 5 hours. DRG=2k/hr. How amazing! DRG for the win! 4 days per level up (Yes, please.) [/sarcasm]

The STFU was to add to the whole hilarity factor of this thread, every time DRG pops up somewhere you know people are going to start flaming it. I think it's funny.


Good points are made, So I'm done debating on how good/bad DRG is. When I hit 75(Which I will do in a matter of time. I want to get my money out of MY game.) I'll just add myself to the ranks of the plentiful MNKS, and DRKs.

I quit. Have fun bashing a job that's extremely enjoyable to play.

Edited, Thu Nov 18 05:00:23 2004 by Zariko

Heh, think of me as an *** if you wish. I really don't care much.

Personally, I'm sick and tired of people whining and complaining about anything that doesn't go their way. People come on here and post about stupid stuff like this in order to draw sympathy from the rest of the people here. So they post rants or complaints or just overall whine-fests. Of course they get the normal "Oh I'm sorry to hear that" or "I think that sucks too man" or whatever other expected responses. Then someone like me comes along and says what needs to be said. People flip out. Not only do they not listen to any valid point I may have, but they get even more unreasonable and mean. I said something truthful that no one wanted to hear. Automatically I'm a bad person. So what does a post like this do anyways? It makes the supporters look like idiots, it makes the people who disagree look like asses, and it once again shows us all that by God, you better not go against the majority of Allakhazam.


Thread nuke = (Yes, please.)

So you'd rather people beat around the bush and give a constant excuse for not wanting to party with the particular class than be blunt and honest?

I'm sorry, but I personally prefer blunt and honest people. If you have a problem with me, my race, my class, whatever you should come out and say it. I will respect any and all opinions brough forth, even if I don't necessarily agree with them.

There are a few reasons I don't like to party with dragoons.

1) There are better jobs to add the party.

2) They are rarely involved in the skill chain.

3) Mostly because of the blue dragon flapping nonstop...what a pain to have this "Thing" constantly hovering in camp.

4) Then...after the fight...while I'm healing...bam, they are in the yellow cause they had to heal the pet.

So, as a healer I'm more inclined to not party with a dragoon.

Regards
Montyman
59/whm
rank 7

Point I agree with: I don't have the right to personally harrass someone because of their choice of job.

Point I disagree with: If I'm building the party, I can discriminate all I want. I'm building the party. There is no rule in the TOS that I *have* to invite every job or give them a chance.

It's only really discrimination if the person is simply not inviting a particular job, drg in this case, because of what they've heard. However, in the case of many above, even more so in Tim's case, they are choosing to not invite drg after a certain level because of personal experience. So, from there, it crosses from being descrimination to learning from past experiences and applying that knowledge in the future.

Because i have come to respect the opinion of Nataraja I am actually looking forward to the response.....
wether or not it remotely agrees with my opinion.

The long-expected party... I mean post. (Sorry, reading LOTR for about the billionth time.)

I don't think the usefulness of DRG pre-50 is much in debate, it seems to be generally agreed that they are as valid, and in some cases a more valid choice than other job types. In this area the maxim holds quite true that player skill and equipment are larger factors in usefulness than job and race, given some common sense. (Relying on your blm with a scythe to do all your melee dd might not be the wisest decision, for example.)

And if my memory is serving me correctly (and it may not be, I'm very tired) I seem to recall pting with Zariko a time or two, and assuming I'm thinking of the right guy, they were enjoyable and very profitable experiences.

Anyway.

The issues seem to be SC usefulness and post-50 DD power.

By way of disclaimer I should point out that most of this is not from personal observation but simply comparing the numbers, so to speak.

Disregarding SC3's for a moment (as they have more bearing on the post-50 stuff, here's a breakdown of what SC2's DRG can partake in, and when)

And for the sake of arguement we'll disregard the impact of Wheeling Thrust and Impulse Drive on SC2, as these play a larger role in SC3.

Fusion (Fire/Light)
DRG polearms can't open these ever. Period. But they can close them with Thunder Thrust, Raiden Thrust, Leg Sweep, and Skewer. Admittedly Thunder Thrust, Raiden Thrust, and Leg Sweep are kind of meh. Skewer's nothing to laugh at though, from what I understand.

Fusion is somewhat of a weak point for DRG until they get the 200 weapon skill needed for Skewer.

Fragmentation (Thunder/Wind)
Sadly, due to the way renkei function mechanically, DRG is not very useful with this SC either. They can't open it until Impulse Drive opens up, but then you'll have better uses for that particular WS. They can close it with Vorpal Thrust, which is decent, but there are better ways to close a Fragmentation, honestly. This is a DRG weak-point admittedly. No shame in admitting it.

Gravitation (Earth/Dark)
DRG shine here, as far as closing a renkei goes. They won't be able to open one until they get Wheeling Thrust (better uses for that too), but when they close one, they close it with finality, with Penta Thrust and Skewer.

The arguement runs that you rarely have a use for Gravitation when xping, but Crawlers come to mind as a valid choice. Honestly though, this is more the fault of the cookie-cutter way we all tend to play this game. In my personal experience, you can xp in many other places than those everyone seems to go to. Statics have a lot of freedom here, as a good one can look at their strong and weak points and cater their xp fodder choices to their strengths. Just because Gravitation is not useful to your party does not mean its not useful to others. Admittedly there are fewer classifications of mobs that are weak to Earth and Dark, but they are there.

But I digress...

Distortion (Ice/Water)
Speaking of useful renkei, I have to say I've always been fond of this one, because admittedly Ice and Water weaknesses are remarkably prevalent in the game. But since I just dismissed arguements of Gravitation being useless for related reasons we'll disregard this. Nevertheless DRG have much to offer here. You'll never see them close a Distortion, but just about their entire ******* can open one. Double Thrust, Thunder Thrust, Raiden Thrust, Vorpal Thrust, & Skewer.

Skewer's about one of the most damned versatile WS in the game, usable in three different SC2s. The only other WS I know of that do that are the AXE skill Spinning Axe and the GUN skill Slug Shot.

Generally speaking no weapon is great at everything. For example, you'll never see H2H weapons in a Distortion, or Scythes in a Fusion, at least not until H2H Dragon Kick and SCY Cross Reaper and Spiral Hell open up, but those will be busy elsewhere. =P

Still, if I were to provide rankings, from most potent to least, I would have to say

Gravitation
Distortion
Fusion
Fragmentation

Unless I'm way off target, Gravitation and Distortion pretty much cover about half the mob classifications in the game.

Before I hit up the SC3s, I thought it might be prudent to point out something worth knowing. As far as heavier weapons go, PLM are nothing to laugh at. They don't hit as hard, but they're faster. I think the words "personal preference" would apply. A SCY, GSD, GAX, or GKT will hit harder, but the PLM will hit more often. Parser stats might be interesting to take a look at.

And you know, I haven't seen the high-end WS in play, but I have to say I like the sound of the PLMs final 2, compared to those of the SCY, GSD, GKT, GAX, and BOW. You can look them up yourself if you aren't familiar with them, and again, this is simply my impression of them, given the attributes I see listed for them. Of all these weapons and their last two weapon skills, Impulse Drive is the only one that hits multiple times, and Wheeling Thrust punches through mob defense, dependant on TP.

H2H admittedly is also quite nice, as Asuran Fists hits 8 times. Pity they nerfed multi-hit WS TP acrual so long ago. That would be entertaining, to say the least.

Anyway.

Given that, DRG can be in a LIGHT Renkei with Wheeling Thrust and a DARKNESS Renkei with Impulse Drive. Diversity = Yes, please. The same can't be said about some of the other common DD weapons. Of the ones I've discussed. H2H, GSD, and GKT can participate in both. GAX and SCY can only do DARKNESS, BOW and GUN can only do LIGHT.

So regarding SC3s, it seems to me that DRG can perform at least as well as any other job, and has the benefit of being able to do so with their best weapon. The same can't be said of some of the other DD jobs, and RNG are pretty much completely excluded from DARKNESS SC.

I dunno, maybe that all sounds like nothing but tripe, being as it is merely my conjecture after having done some research and a lot of thinking at work tonight. Very little personal observation.

But at the end of the day, it seems very clear to me that it isn't the balance of the game that tends to exclude DRG, but merely how we chose to play it as a community. And that's an unfortunate thing.

Maybe my experiences later on in the game will change that opinion, but as it stands now I see no valid reason to view DRG as anything other than a viable option for DD. And plus they're just damned sexy, which I think is the real reason everyone else hates them. Jealousy. =P

In all honesty though, I doubt this debate will ever be resolved, unless some enterprising individual takes the time to collect parser stats on DRG compared to other, more common post-50 DDs.

And if that information indicates in a conclusive manner that DRG are gimped, as many feel, then fine. But without such conclusive proof, touting your opinion based on experience as a truth, and heaping mockery onto the heads of those who don't subscribe to your particular truth is inappropriate in any forum. Especially one about a game.

(I just couldn't resist one final comment regarding the tone of some prior posts. =P )

And there we have it. Another horrifically long-winded post by me. I think if we ever have a contest to see who can talk out their *** the longest, I'll win by several miles. ^^

(That is, if you can get me to stop talking long enough to tell me that I won.)

Nitey-nite. It's WAAAAAY past Nata's bedtime.

/ja "Pass Out In Bed" <me>
Nataraja's Falling Face First In Bed, Drooling, And Not Moving For 12 Hours skill rises by 0.2.