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I disagree with the story line sucking. Having completed all of the Zilart requirements save the AA and final battle I can say that I love the story in this game. I agree that the meat of the story is terribly skewed towards high levels but this is MMORPG afterall, you can't expect it to unfold like a normal RPG. Any rank 10 people know how annoying it was to switch country and have to do the same quest from rank 4-6 all over again. That's called rushing for the sake of completing rather than sit back and enjoy the story line. If you have LS mates that take you from rank 1-5 in a single day, you're not gonna respect the story too much. The story is there as you progress. Generally every rank corresponds to every 10 levels of play, hence the conquest Items that you can buy with your ranks corresponds to what level you are (rank 3 can buy items used for level 30s etc.) This game is design to last, its not a single player game where you're expected to finish in 40 hrs or so hence the storyline dynamics is different. These missions are spread out for you over 10 levels. People think just because they only spent less than a few hours to get to rank 5 that there is no story. You forgot to count the time and quests that it take you to be able to complete those ranks. Compare it with a normal RPG then, its the same thing. Missions and alot of quests are intertwined to provide the overall experience.
I can tell you this, I look forward to completing the COP storylines as it is shaping up to be very good. After rank 6 in addition to the wonderful ZM story lines you also get rank 6-10 storylines from each countries, some people have favorites some doesn't. Some people rushed through the whole ZM storyline to get SKY the same way they rushed to get rank 5 and airship pass, they might not enjoy it much. I thought the sandy story line was kinda OK but now looking forward to doing Windy. In addition, every little quest adds something to the whole story. Like the summoner's relationship to the whole windy storyline. How does Fenrir fit in? he's only available since February yet his story was in the game from the very beginning. Stuff like that are very thought out and should not be discarded based on just five ranks of play. You are not half way there yet.
Two, purely selfish requests.
1. Bring back extra TP gain on multi-hit WS
2. Wyvern damage adds TP to their master's meter
Then lets see anyone call drg "gimped" ;p (not that we are anyway)
As for new jobs, I really like the Templar idea. I'd also like some kind of "Weapons Master" who can get an A rank in all (or at least most) weapons. (would still need to skill them up though) It's quite annoying being stuck with only 1 or 2 good weapon choices for each job. They could possibly have really bad def for a melee job to compensate. It would really open up SC options.
1. Bring back extra TP gain on multi-hit WS
2. Wyvern damage adds TP to their master's meter
Then lets see anyone call drg "gimped" ;p (not that we are anyway)
As for new jobs, I really like the Templar idea. I'd also like some kind of "Weapons Master" who can get an A rank in all (or at least most) weapons. (would still need to skill them up though) It's quite annoying being stuck with only 1 or 2 good weapon choices for each job. They could possibly have really bad def for a melee job to compensate. It would really open up SC options.
[hijack]
As is I would agree that all this would destroy the balance in the game, but I would argue that balance could be maintained with appropriate skills.
Using refresh for an example, I can see two good possibilities here. Similar to certain weapon skills, you could make a small selection of spells only available if the job to which they are assigned only available if it is the main job. Refresh would be an obvious choice for this.
Alternately, you could give WHM Refresh at lvl 82 or so, along with a nice Refreshga (following the usual WHM theme), and give RDM and BRD a Refresh 2 spell/song, programmed such that Refresh and Refresh 2 stack (but two refresh do not).
This would of course equivocate to huge mp refreshing, so to strike a balance here you might set the mp costs of higher-level spells proportionately higher than the pre-82 cost increases.
As a matter of clarification my idea for a third layer of subs would only be available for use whenever your main job >= 75. Having three layers of sub below that point would require a complete rewrite to the balance of the existing game, and would probably fail in the long run. I'm thinking of something to add depth of play to the higher levels.
I fail to understand your reasoning here. You seem to be simultaneously arguing about a bad balance of what quantity of jobs can perform what roles, yet also complaining about a job that altered that scenerio.
I think Ninja was an excellent addition to the game, one that did not ruin balance as you posit but simply changed the balance.
You argue that WAR as tanks have now been left on the side of the road, yet I might point out that there are hundreds of WAR tanks on our server past the expected lvl 37. NIN makes an excellent sub for WAR and only serves to strengthen its position as a valid tank. Pre-ninja warriors had very little to offer that a Paladin did not, or could not get easily with WAR subbed, other than different weapon proficiencies and a higher natural strength. If anything NIN subbed makes a WAR tank post-37 more valid.
Regarding the arguements on which job makes the better tank, PLD or NIN, I honestly thought we as a community were done with this arguement (minus the newbies who pick it up when they join us). I thought we had agreed that they were more or less equal overall, with one job or the other shining in different scenarios. Arguements aside I think its clear that one job does not exclude the other from being effective in pt.
Regarding dragoons, I have a feeling that had square not botched the code on the multi-hit ws tp-acrual in the first place, dragoons wouldn't be so hated or despised. I honestly doubt square intended for dragoons to gain tp off of skills like penta thrust at such an extreme rate.
So now everyone cries about the dragoons being nerfed and useless, and this is not so. They are a more than valid choice for DD, and I intend to include one in my static once it comes time to start chosing members.
And I might point out that your arguement of throwing off the balance does apply to pre-"nerf" dragoons.
That would depend on how they were balanced. And I'll point out again that the additional jobs I'm suggesting are intended 1) to only be available once you played a basic or extra job all the way to 75, and 2) that I'm thinking of jobs to offer other options for roles, which combined with a third layer of sub would add more variety and depth to the game, not take it away. More on this shortly.
True, you do level off a very limited number of mob classes. As a matter of differentiation from BST however I might point out an old rule with FF blue mage types. Mobs don't always use all the abilities at their disposal. I can think of several instances wherein a mob would only use certain abilities under certain circumstances, in the older FF's. Generally some kind of monster manipulation would be required. Which would make a blue-mage an interesting duo partner for BST.
Further differentiation, generally a BST will have a mob that cons in at roughly his own strength. Perhaps a BLU would be able to use monster skills equivalent in strength to those of an IT++, but have a fairly long casting time to balance it out.
Just thoughts and ideas. Brainstorming, as it were.
Wait, so you shoot down my ideas for adding content for uber-lvls, then complain about the lack of content for uber-lvls?
I'm confused.
If that were the case, then Ninjas shouldn't have been such a success, or they should have completely overshadowed Paladins. But they both do the job well.
My biggest complaint toward balance is that there are proportionately more DD jobs than any other job-type. Which is why you didn't see me list any ideas for more DD jobs. Though I have to admit, the idea of a weaponmaster listed by another poster above possesses some interesting possibilities.
Lol I agree to an extent.
Here here on the marriage system being a big pain in the ***. My gf and I have been trying to get married for over a month, with no success, and I imagine it will be many more months before we are finally wed.
I agree with all the other ideas you listed. You'll be getting a rate-up when I finish posting (as will everyone else, for tossing ideas out here).
I apologize for being arguementative, but I'm just a big fan of debate. I can't help it, it's like a nervous twitch.
We both agree though that at the very least any new content which effects jobs and subjobs would require very careful balancing.
Rather than simply naysay at my ideas, I would love to see any ideas you might have that would make them work from a balance perspective.
I tend to be a dreamer, and would appreciate some more constructive critisism from one who appears to have his head less in the clouds than I.
Not that any of my ideas would show up in this game; the chances for that are less than my chance of spontaneously turning into a tarutaru (IRL). But I have far-reaching ambitions, one of which being to create my own video games one day. At the very least I might hone my creativity here.
[/hijack]
Edited, Tue Nov 16 14:40:02 2004 by nataraja
Bowser wrote:
Problem with raising past level 75 is balance. You'll have every mages and their grandmother sub redmage at level 82 for refresh and convert, at level 100 throw in a level 25 bard or summoner sub for more mp refresh underneath that tripple layer sub. What are the needs for redmages and bards in a party then? What would happen to support jobs? in the end you get a party of uber 6 people that had so many extra abilities that instead of being a group dynamics which is already bad as is (only certain jobs get parties easily while the rest sits out). NOw you have even more jobs being excluded. That does not make for fun parties, it also left a large portion of the players who chose support jobs as our jobs to be forced to come back and level other things. Something dragoons knows so much about.
As is I would agree that all this would destroy the balance in the game, but I would argue that balance could be maintained with appropriate skills.
Using refresh for an example, I can see two good possibilities here. Similar to certain weapon skills, you could make a small selection of spells only available if the job to which they are assigned only available if it is the main job. Refresh would be an obvious choice for this.
Alternately, you could give WHM Refresh at lvl 82 or so, along with a nice Refreshga (following the usual WHM theme), and give RDM and BRD a Refresh 2 spell/song, programmed such that Refresh and Refresh 2 stack (but two refresh do not).
This would of course equivocate to huge mp refreshing, so to strike a balance here you might set the mp costs of higher-level spells proportionately higher than the pre-82 cost increases.
As a matter of clarification my idea for a third layer of subs would only be available for use whenever your main job >= 75. Having three layers of sub below that point would require a complete rewrite to the balance of the existing game, and would probably fail in the long run. I'm thinking of something to add depth of play to the higher levels.
Quote:
The last three new jobs that was added were 2 melees (dragoon and sam) that does not alter group dynamics much, and ninja which changed the way the whole game was to be play. Before Rise of the zilart there were no such things as blink tanking. The only tanks were the paladin and the warrior. To this day paladins and ninjas still argues about who's the better tank with the warrior on the side taking jabs. Its an example of how adding just one extra job can alter the whole structure of how the game is played. Square enix tried hard to have a balance of all jobs and though they did royally screwed up one, dragoon, the other jobs pretty much will have their moment in the sun but not for long if more stuff are added.
I fail to understand your reasoning here. You seem to be simultaneously arguing about a bad balance of what quantity of jobs can perform what roles, yet also complaining about a job that altered that scenerio.
I think Ninja was an excellent addition to the game, one that did not ruin balance as you posit but simply changed the balance.
You argue that WAR as tanks have now been left on the side of the road, yet I might point out that there are hundreds of WAR tanks on our server past the expected lvl 37. NIN makes an excellent sub for WAR and only serves to strengthen its position as a valid tank. Pre-ninja warriors had very little to offer that a Paladin did not, or could not get easily with WAR subbed, other than different weapon proficiencies and a higher natural strength. If anything NIN subbed makes a WAR tank post-37 more valid.
Regarding the arguements on which job makes the better tank, PLD or NIN, I honestly thought we as a community were done with this arguement (minus the newbies who pick it up when they join us). I thought we had agreed that they were more or less equal overall, with one job or the other shining in different scenarios. Arguements aside I think its clear that one job does not exclude the other from being effective in pt.
Regarding dragoons, I have a feeling that had square not botched the code on the multi-hit ws tp-acrual in the first place, dragoons wouldn't be so hated or despised. I honestly doubt square intended for dragoons to gain tp off of skills like penta thrust at such an extreme rate.
So now everyone cries about the dragoons being nerfed and useless, and this is not so. They are a more than valid choice for DD, and I intend to include one in my static once it comes time to start chosing members.
And I might point out that your arguement of throwing off the balance does apply to pre-"nerf" dragoons.
Quote:
Adding new jobs will just take it all away.
That would depend on how they were balanced. And I'll point out again that the additional jobs I'm suggesting are intended 1) to only be available once you played a basic or extra job all the way to 75, and 2) that I'm thinking of jobs to offer other options for roles, which combined with a third layer of sub would add more variety and depth to the game, not take it away. More on this shortly.
Quote:
What is the purpose of a bluemage? This game is elemental based so what if the bluemage learn screwdriver and used it against a pug who's strong def is water? The bluemage jobs, to tell you the truth, is being taken by Beastmasters. And they DO work well it groups. Mobs are designed so lazily that the Robber crabs you're fighting at level 56 does the same moves as the snipper level 14. Being a bluemage definitely wouldn't be fun. How many mobs outthere do you fight with Meteor or ultima, those cool moves everyone wants to imitate? HOw many times can you do bubble showers over and over? since you basically leveled off like 5 kind of mobs the whole time.
True, you do level off a very limited number of mob classes. As a matter of differentiation from BST however I might point out an old rule with FF blue mage types. Mobs don't always use all the abilities at their disposal. I can think of several instances wherein a mob would only use certain abilities under certain circumstances, in the older FF's. Generally some kind of monster manipulation would be required. Which would make a blue-mage an interesting duo partner for BST.
Further differentiation, generally a BST will have a mob that cons in at roughly his own strength. Perhaps a BLU would be able to use monster skills equivalent in strength to those of an IT++, but have a fairly long casting time to balance it out.
Just thoughts and ideas. Brainstorming, as it were.
Quote:
This is Square's first time doing MMORPG and it shows in end game when the only fun is to camp the various HNM over and over or go back and level another jobs with the uber load of cash you made from HNM hunting. Some people found it repetitive and quit but adding new things to unbalanced the game would just make more people quit.
Wait, so you shoot down my ideas for adding content for uber-lvls, then complain about the lack of content for uber-lvls?
I'm confused.
Quote:
With the subjobs system it created the fun of being able to mix and match abilities yet ultimately made the creation of a lot of jobs useless, since you can already do the samething with the current job mix.
If that were the case, then Ninjas shouldn't have been such a success, or they should have completely overshadowed Paladins. But they both do the job well.
My biggest complaint toward balance is that there are proportionately more DD jobs than any other job-type. Which is why you didn't see me list any ideas for more DD jobs. Though I have to admit, the idea of a weaponmaster listed by another poster above possesses some interesting possibilities.
Quote:
The major thing I would want to see is better mob selections and levels correspondent. People fight onions in kazam after 25 because they are easy EXP. True there are other alternatives but they do not give the same "easy time" as onions. SO in the end, make the other mobs more productive or nerf the onions by making them harder, just dont' make it so pulling onions during peak time is like camping for lizzy.
Lol I agree to an extent.
Quote:
I'm sorry for ranting but back on topic I would like to raise my own chocobo like a tamagotchi and whistle for it to come to me whenever I need. I also like wintaru's idea of being able to lfp with all my jobs. I like to make it so everyone can enter my mog house and see it. I would like the marriage system to be more refined and less difficult to sign up. I would also like the ability to BbQ a taru. Thank you.
Here here on the marriage system being a big pain in the ***. My gf and I have been trying to get married for over a month, with no success, and I imagine it will be many more months before we are finally wed.
I agree with all the other ideas you listed. You'll be getting a rate-up when I finish posting (as will everyone else, for tossing ideas out here).
I apologize for being arguementative, but I'm just a big fan of debate. I can't help it, it's like a nervous twitch.
We both agree though that at the very least any new content which effects jobs and subjobs would require very careful balancing.
Rather than simply naysay at my ideas, I would love to see any ideas you might have that would make them work from a balance perspective.
I tend to be a dreamer, and would appreciate some more constructive critisism from one who appears to have his head less in the clouds than I.
Not that any of my ideas would show up in this game; the chances for that are less than my chance of spontaneously turning into a tarutaru (IRL). But I have far-reaching ambitions, one of which being to create my own video games one day. At the very least I might hone my creativity here.
[/hijack]
Edited, Tue Nov 16 14:40:02 2004 by nataraja
Rate up Nata for arguing in a constructive manner, without relying on flaming. Also rate up for that long-*** post ^^
yes Nata I agree, you have some excelent ideas and alot of potential to create games yourself another rate up
people complain about balancing...but I think if SE does extend the endgame they have talented enough people to work it out
people complain about balancing...but I think if SE does extend the endgame they have talented enough people to work it out
4 things:
1) The NM's that spawn in a set place only drop rare/ex items.
2) Party crafting
3) small amount of xp for twtbw kills
4) guilds that don't sell out of supplies
1) The NM's that spawn in a set place only drop rare/ex items.
2) Party crafting
3) small amount of xp for twtbw kills
4) guilds that don't sell out of supplies
One thing i thought of. Being able to talk with a headset instead of typing everything. Of course, keep the typing and have restrictions to live talking. For instance, you can only live talk if you're in a Party. I think it'd be fun. Communication would be more efficient and you can concentrate more on the fight. Eh, not the BEST idea, but thought I would throw that out there
"2) Party crafting"
great great idea, was thinking about it myself in the last 2-3 months
As for my suggestions:
- Drop that annoying rent-a-room scheme needing you to talk to a npc before entering your mog house.
- A small amount of experience points awarded to non-repeatable quests ( or maybe when you get a new "fame level" )
- Just a personnal wish for the next one: Herald Flags that samurais could equip as their sub weapon that boost party/alliance members but not the samurai himself ( maybe it could have charges )
great great idea, was thinking about it myself in the last 2-3 months
As for my suggestions:
- Drop that annoying rent-a-room scheme needing you to talk to a npc before entering your mog house.
- A small amount of experience points awarded to non-repeatable quests ( or maybe when you get a new "fame level" )
- Just a personnal wish for the next one: Herald Flags that samurais could equip as their sub weapon that boost party/alliance members but not the samurai himself ( maybe it could have charges )
Vimian, Awesome idea about the headset, that is the one thing I think this game needs. I bought on for playin hockey online and being able to talk instead of type makes things 100% easier.
Dont know if it has been posted before but I am so tired of the same old mobs, i.e. Bettles and crabs. I am currently lvl 62 @ 64 I hear we lvl off crabs again at Boyahda Tree. Seriously from West Ronfaure, La Theine, Valkurm, Qufim, Boyahda Tree all crabs. Beetles 32-52 at Crawler's Nest please dont tell me is the same as we continue 64+. We need new mobs. Also more places to lvl, 18 ppl crowding around one place at Onzozo is not cool. Please, please, please ^^;
1.I think that there should be teleport crystals in all the major leveling places.
2. They should have a certain price for chocos at telepoints (around 400)
a certain price for chocos in small villages (300 gil)
and a certain price for chocos in cities (150 gil)
and these prices should NEVER change, no matter what, even if the market crashes, and you eventually have to pay 10k just for a peice of level one armor, you should still be able to rent a choco for 100-400 gil, and no more than that.
I mean, spending 500 gil to get to a telepoint, then 1k for one choco to get to jeuno, then 1k for another choco when u get there just... pisses me off >.<
Edited, Fri Nov 19 01:18:06 2004 by aerweny
Edited, Fri Nov 19 01:18:27 2004 by aerweny
2. They should have a certain price for chocos at telepoints (around 400)
a certain price for chocos in small villages (300 gil)
and a certain price for chocos in cities (150 gil)
and these prices should NEVER change, no matter what, even if the market crashes, and you eventually have to pay 10k just for a peice of level one armor, you should still be able to rent a choco for 100-400 gil, and no more than that.
I mean, spending 500 gil to get to a telepoint, then 1k for one choco to get to jeuno, then 1k for another choco when u get there just... pisses me off >.<
Edited, Fri Nov 19 01:18:06 2004 by aerweny
Edited, Fri Nov 19 01:18:27 2004 by aerweny
31 posts
ok i read a few of the posts but there are a lot and im not readin them all so if these were already posted sorry. I would change some of the jobs around.
First a NIN should actually be steathly and not have tanking abilities they are ninjas they arent supposed to be getting hit even if they do have "shadows". Second THF should actually be able to steal more things, say maybe equipment,gil, items, attributes like in Tactics. They should make an Archer class for major bow usage and RNG's main should be guns. Also the Knight class should be in there like Tactics, used to lower enemies abilities and be a back up tank cause of the heavy armor, with no magic, and main weapon as a great sword. WAR should change to not being so much a backup tank to being more offensive. RDM's main weapon should be a rapier or fencing sword of course, but it should have its own category. Basically so every job has one main weapon and i dont just mean the grades or whatever. Other then those i forgot the other job changes i had.
There should also be more story or at least make it so it isnt as spread out. The one last thing and almost major thing is that you should be able to solo for longer and easier. I know partyin is supposed to be the major thing but it gets to be a bit ridiculous.
First a NIN should actually be steathly and not have tanking abilities they are ninjas they arent supposed to be getting hit even if they do have "shadows". Second THF should actually be able to steal more things, say maybe equipment,gil, items, attributes like in Tactics. They should make an Archer class for major bow usage and RNG's main should be guns. Also the Knight class should be in there like Tactics, used to lower enemies abilities and be a back up tank cause of the heavy armor, with no magic, and main weapon as a great sword. WAR should change to not being so much a backup tank to being more offensive. RDM's main weapon should be a rapier or fencing sword of course, but it should have its own category. Basically so every job has one main weapon and i dont just mean the grades or whatever. Other then those i forgot the other job changes i had.
There should also be more story or at least make it so it isnt as spread out. The one last thing and almost major thing is that you should be able to solo for longer and easier. I know partyin is supposed to be the major thing but it gets to be a bit ridiculous.
Quote:
They should make an Archer class for major bow usage and RNG's main should be guns. Also the Knight class should be in there like Tactics, used to lower enemies abilities and be a back up tank cause of the heavy armor, with no magic, and main weapon as a great sword. WAR should change to not being so much a backup tank to being more offensive.
RNG is meant to be the archers of this game. We can choose whether to use bow or gun, it's really personal preferance.
Knight as you mentioned it would be DRK, except for the no magic and being able to backup tank.
WAR is used as a DD later on in the game as WAR/NIN dual wielding axes, or as WAR/THF using a G. Axe.
Oh, and abou that LS Mog House, my LS had a discussion abou that today...It would be awesome to have. I know about half my equipment is on loan to various members, and being able to keep it all in one centralized palce would be cool as hell. It would also be cool to decorate a place where other people can go and hang out, and actually being able to ly down on beds and sit in chairs would be lots of fun, imo.
Edited, Fri Nov 19 03:32:03 2004 by Theophany
I wish we had more control over the chat filters. I'd like to filter out actions initiated by others (NOT IN MY PARTY). ><
Sux, when you're surrounded by parties in garlaige, yuhtunga, yhoator, or wherever and have to filter out everything just to count shadows. I couldn't even see provoke messages from my own pt. T_T
Sux, when you're surrounded by parties in garlaige, yuhtunga, yhoator, or wherever and have to filter out everything just to count shadows. I couldn't even see provoke messages from my own pt. T_T
Ok, these are some things I'd change:
Short and to the point, I want more AH space. Seven slots is not enough. If anything, allow us to have seven slots per town.
Access to storage from any town would be nice as well. If the damn moogle can warp back to your home town to check on your plants, he should sure as well be able to warp back to town and remove/store things into storage for you.
The Jeuno tax and the cost to sell things at the Jeuno AH is also stupid. Not like that tax money goes to anything, for Altana's sake. Now, if that gil that was taken as tax was put to something for us in game, then I could deal with that.
Short and to the point, I want more AH space. Seven slots is not enough. If anything, allow us to have seven slots per town.
Access to storage from any town would be nice as well. If the damn moogle can warp back to your home town to check on your plants, he should sure as well be able to warp back to town and remove/store things into storage for you.
The Jeuno tax and the cost to sell things at the Jeuno AH is also stupid. Not like that tax money goes to anything, for Altana's sake. Now, if that gil that was taken as tax was put to something for us in game, then I could deal with that.
Xanoxonax wrote:
The Jeuno tax and the cost to sell things at the Jeuno AH is also stupid. Not like that tax money goes to anything, for Altana's sake. Now, if that gil that was taken as tax was put to something for us in game, then I could deal with that.
Running with this idea, it would be sweet if for every so many gil you pay to place stuff on auction, it buys you a ticket to a raffle where you can win the week's worth of fees paid to place stuff on auction. We'd have millionaires every week, then again, not a great idea, prices would get even worse hehe :)
Seem like Nataraja and I have highjacked this thread to the point of no return, my applogies.
Ok Nataraja, you touched upon several points about the game and your reasons are well thought out. However, they are flawed and you have every right to be since after all its only a suggestion thread.
Here are the reason why I think raising levels or adding more jobs isn't such a good idea. I realized that this is wishful thinking/fantasy type thread after all but there are several fundamental reasons why SE hadn't implement those changes for the past year.
At one point in this game, everyone thought that the level cap would be raised to 99 and then stop, after all, its been done with most other FF games to date. Several problems arose when all the new spiffy job abilities were added post 40s.
The game dynamics is such that a party is divided into
Tank Class: Hate holding / tanking
Healer class: Be it a redmage, whitemage, summoner or blackmage who cures, every party need someone that dished out cures for a majority of the time
Damage Dealing: Blmg, ranger, melees etc.
Past level 30 you also will need:
Support: Refreshers, enfeebler, back up cures, etc.
Now raising level cap would produced the imbalanced I've stated in the previous thread regarding every mages subbing redmage for refresh. Where would Bards and Redmages fit in to this scheme? The game design is such that while WS can be jobs exclusive, the same is not true with magic.
An ability such as weapon skills are native to either job or proficientcy with certain weapons, magic and songs and summons are designed free for all. Such things are true also with job abilities and trait save for 2 hrs. As long as you reached the required level with your subjob, you can use.
I hate to admit but every whitemage look at bards as mp regen *****. Melee generally dont' even notice what songs is being played to them, just as long as they have the two songs icon. I could be playing goblin gavochete all day on the melee side and no one would cared. I have 72 levels of bards under belt and no I did not play goblin gavochete the whole time, just 3/4 :-)
AS long as the MP ticks on the mages, thats all the reason they would invite the bard. I am a bard and would like to think there's more to my job than this, and there is to me. Just a majority doesn't think this way. Redmage's role pre 40 was : enfeebler/back up cures with the occasional nukes for 3 damages. Try meeleing and you get yelled at.
Past 40s you got a plethora of things to do that only you as a redmage can do. Bst aimed to get to 35 for release, redm to 41 for refresh and convert before that, its their holy grail. Where would they stand in this new world? Most of the redmage only spells the mages that sub RDM would also have, along with refresh and convert. Where do they stand?
This MP ***** = support job thing is sad yes, but it exist. I've fought almost all of the HNM available pre chain of promethia and the sole reason most of the time I'm there was to sing ballads. Now imagine if my role was not needed after everyone can take care of their own needs? There can never be enough MP yes? but at some point supports are gonna be passed over for other jobs that can end the battle quickers.
No I'm not complaining about my jobs' useful ness as in the current state, supports are very much needed, yet what about after every mages can have refresh and convert? Like the TP nerf the Gimped the dragoons, it would gimped US. You have also heard thief complaining that their roles are less and less in the high 60's and HNM scene? same situation.
To nerf or take away refresh from a subjob would requires complete rewrite of the game. ONe option I could think of however, is for them to nerf the effect, similar to Trick attack on a subjob. Maybe make it refresh less or something but..
At level 82 said mages sub redmage would get both convert and MP refresh. Even if said abilities are nerf to half their effect. This would still create a shut out of support jobs, here is why. There is an opportunity costs between healers, support and damage dealers. The more damage dealers you have, the quicker the battle goes, less need for healers.
The more healers you have, the longer you can fight without feeling mp crunch. Generally it is agreed that a good party have three backlines and 3 front lines. Usually the backlines are healer/support/third man (the third man being either a nuker or another support). If said mages get even the gimped refreshed and convert, the option of eliminating support all together for another damage dealer will be very appealing.
Support is there to ensure less downtime and to help out at both ends. Be it enfeebling or madrigal to help melees finish mob quicker or back up cures. But really, would all those helps of the support be needed when just adding one more damage dealer would compensate for those offensive abilities? While the MP end have already been taken care of? Where is the need for support?
There can never be enough mp yes? but you failed to realized the vast majority of toys at the disposal of mages to help them regain mp (clearmind, refresh equip etc.) Now they also get refresh and convert?
Unlike Trick attack or Steal where general effect are much less effective if subbed, spells does not work like that.Spells aren't usually nerf that much, especially if it is cast on your self or allies. Poisona or regen on a subjob work the same as on a main job, its just up to your skills in that particular area and gears that will affect the potency. What category does refresh fall under? certainly a category that as a whitemage or blackmage would have up very high anyhow.
Squeenix probabbly won't be able to take out refresh or convert on a subjob even if they wanted to. You seem to be dreaming of all these things, and sure enough this is a fantasy thread after all. But keep this in mind, any patches and addition Squeenix implemented have to work with the existing system.
Putting another cap at 75 in order to reach the new jobs sound tempting, kinda like working your way to 30 to be a paladin, but keep this in mind, it breed resentment.
Take summoner, it use to be you have to be at least sixty or mid fifties to be able to get a hold of an avatars. People ******* all over about how they have to play for months just to be able to play the job they want, and guessed what happen? all avatars saved fenrir can now be quested at level 20.
The time it take you to get from 1-65 is half the game, 66-75 is another half of the game. Putting in extra jobs cap 75 would appeased the high levels yet if the job list was going to be part of the appeal, kinda suck that you have to play for 6 months to a year to access them.
Putting new jobs high level exclusive only won't really get rid of the boredom you get at high level. Its always gonna be there. There are more than enough jobs to go back and level already if he/she so chooses. If anything, it introduced problems. The current party mixes are already efficient, throwing in new, redesign roles requires probably a whole new game, not just patches.
This game and its subjob system was designed to save Squeenix from having to add a whole list of 16 jobs like other MMORPG.
You seemed to misunderstand my point about Ninja ALTERING the structure of play, I did not said it ruined balance. My point was that one single change in job dynamic can alter the way the game is played. If just ninja alter the way tanking works, subbing redmage at 82 would alter alot of things, first and foremost the destruction of the support class.
True you have 82 levels to play support before it become obsolete, what will support jobs strive for? End game that saw them no longer needed in most activities aka the THIEF syndrome?
FYI: Ninja were never meant to be tanks, SE stated this themselves in an interview with a Japanese magazine. They were meant to be elemental enfeebler/moderate attacker. Ninja hasn't overshadowed paladin because They were not design as tank. The latest Utsu patch dumped down their appeal a little bit more, but not by much.
Their high eva was design so that they are less strain on the mp source. They were the perfect sixth man to a party. Utsusemi just proves much more useful than it was intended. As for proof of SE's intention? I've followed this issued of tank vs tank for quite a while on several forums and its a general known fact that SE didn't design ninja to tank. You're welcome to try and do research on the actual doccument. I can try to find it and PM it if you're so interested.
Now if you are a ninja and doesn't sub warrior good luck finding a party. Good luck trying to experiement with other subs and explain to your party your worth. For a while, many flirted with nin/thief for added evasion bonus and dex, essentially the sixth man job, yet the appeal of a nin tank proves too much and it was more effecient for nin to tank.
I threw in the tanking paragraphs not to argue which is better. I was inteded to show that once there was paladin and war, SE said lets there be ninja and there he was, now both they argued about who is best.
Introduction of just one job changed it all, nin for the better I would agreed. But raising caps and new jobs wouldn't IMHO.
Now if you want to here's my 2 cent also on the subject of war tanking
Keep in mind that when paladin and war were sole tanks (without nin), level cap was also 50 and the game's mob are mid 60s at best. Past level 50 you should notice that the IT level jumped to about 5-7 levels instead of 2 or 3.
Meaning before a mob con IT to you for 1 or 2 levels now will still be IT for 3-5 levels. Mobs essentially are harder at the end even though they still use the same moves. Now you see why you can level off robber crabs starting from 52>>57 and still get good exp. In kazam you level once and suddenly exp go to crap. The ratio of player vs mob level increased dramatically after 50.
War/nin was never a real tank post Jungle before AF body, and afterward, not a very efficient one until 74. Regardless of what a warrior thinks he can do as a tank past the kazam level, he is not an efficient tank. If war/nin tank going well, you either :
-Fight mob that your party can handle easily and should move on to harder mobs
-Possesed a party set up of alot of nukers that make the battle quick. Insert hate holding problems here.
-Have another warrior to share tanking duty, therefore it is not 1 warrior but 2 that are tanking.
-or Really slow exp and downtime.
Again this was highjacked to some unseen tangent and I appologized, just wanted to clarify what I meant.
Regarding the Bluemage thing. If you have fought all the way to endgame you know that you fight essentially: Shelled (pug, crawler, crabs, beetles) and softbody (rabbit,flies, onions, shrooms) Throw in a few beastmen,bone and the occasional gollum and there's the whole game. There it is, around 10 mobs in the whole game for you to chew on.
Now believe it or not, they all DO THE SAME MOVE over and over again. A pugil in Gustav Cavern level 70 does the same damn thing as the one in Valkurm level 18. True mob dont' used all their ablities, but kinda hard when you only got like 2 to use. Don't believe me? get a bst and charm a mob than have it used TP (SIC), see how many moves it have? It would be nice to do 1k needle to a cactuar, but how many have you fight during your whole game?
Another point is balance.
What role does the blue mage fit in the partying scheme? is he a support? DD? tank? or healer? would SE make it so he can solo? those facts must also be considered. Would a party pick a blue mage in place of the traditional set up? depend on how useful he is, and as of current set up, not much at all.
Blue mage would only be interesting, if the mobs selection were changed. Unfortunately, "Easy exp" still wins, and while you can also level off tigers in batalia for a change, going onions in Yuhtunga will give you an easier time. So for now, those small selection of mobs are all you have.
Another FYI: TP gain WAS a glitch that was fixed. It does not only affected Dragoon, but monk and Samurai as well. The different is, both of those jobs can compensate for it with other abilities. Monk being better DOT and Samurai for renkei flexibility. Dragoons are more than capable of being DD, but there are better. You don't want a capable party, you want the best for your effort.
Also, people make this game so player skills and attitude accounts for much more than game design. Speaking from game design point of view however, dragoon was let down after the TP patch.
Overall we all wish for little things to improve our fictional lives. Some of those are quite possible. New mog house, change in party seeking, new mob selection etc. Introducing new jobs and raising the level caps however, I don't see as a very good addition, and for the reasons above, certainly wouldn't be what I hope for, it would be another game.
Highjacking thread end, my appology and thank you for replying.
Edited, Fri Nov 19 19:33:28 2004 by Bowser
Ok Nataraja, you touched upon several points about the game and your reasons are well thought out. However, they are flawed and you have every right to be since after all its only a suggestion thread.
Here are the reason why I think raising levels or adding more jobs isn't such a good idea. I realized that this is wishful thinking/fantasy type thread after all but there are several fundamental reasons why SE hadn't implement those changes for the past year.
At one point in this game, everyone thought that the level cap would be raised to 99 and then stop, after all, its been done with most other FF games to date. Several problems arose when all the new spiffy job abilities were added post 40s.
The game dynamics is such that a party is divided into
Tank Class: Hate holding / tanking
Healer class: Be it a redmage, whitemage, summoner or blackmage who cures, every party need someone that dished out cures for a majority of the time
Damage Dealing: Blmg, ranger, melees etc.
Past level 30 you also will need:
Support: Refreshers, enfeebler, back up cures, etc.
Now raising level cap would produced the imbalanced I've stated in the previous thread regarding every mages subbing redmage for refresh. Where would Bards and Redmages fit in to this scheme? The game design is such that while WS can be jobs exclusive, the same is not true with magic.
An ability such as weapon skills are native to either job or proficientcy with certain weapons, magic and songs and summons are designed free for all. Such things are true also with job abilities and trait save for 2 hrs. As long as you reached the required level with your subjob, you can use.
I hate to admit but every whitemage look at bards as mp regen *****. Melee generally dont' even notice what songs is being played to them, just as long as they have the two songs icon. I could be playing goblin gavochete all day on the melee side and no one would cared. I have 72 levels of bards under belt and no I did not play goblin gavochete the whole time, just 3/4 :-)
AS long as the MP ticks on the mages, thats all the reason they would invite the bard. I am a bard and would like to think there's more to my job than this, and there is to me. Just a majority doesn't think this way. Redmage's role pre 40 was : enfeebler/back up cures with the occasional nukes for 3 damages. Try meeleing and you get yelled at.
Past 40s you got a plethora of things to do that only you as a redmage can do. Bst aimed to get to 35 for release, redm to 41 for refresh and convert before that, its their holy grail. Where would they stand in this new world? Most of the redmage only spells the mages that sub RDM would also have, along with refresh and convert. Where do they stand?
This MP ***** = support job thing is sad yes, but it exist. I've fought almost all of the HNM available pre chain of promethia and the sole reason most of the time I'm there was to sing ballads. Now imagine if my role was not needed after everyone can take care of their own needs? There can never be enough MP yes? but at some point supports are gonna be passed over for other jobs that can end the battle quickers.
No I'm not complaining about my jobs' useful ness as in the current state, supports are very much needed, yet what about after every mages can have refresh and convert? Like the TP nerf the Gimped the dragoons, it would gimped US. You have also heard thief complaining that their roles are less and less in the high 60's and HNM scene? same situation.
To nerf or take away refresh from a subjob would requires complete rewrite of the game. ONe option I could think of however, is for them to nerf the effect, similar to Trick attack on a subjob. Maybe make it refresh less or something but..
At level 82 said mages sub redmage would get both convert and MP refresh. Even if said abilities are nerf to half their effect. This would still create a shut out of support jobs, here is why. There is an opportunity costs between healers, support and damage dealers. The more damage dealers you have, the quicker the battle goes, less need for healers.
The more healers you have, the longer you can fight without feeling mp crunch. Generally it is agreed that a good party have three backlines and 3 front lines. Usually the backlines are healer/support/third man (the third man being either a nuker or another support). If said mages get even the gimped refreshed and convert, the option of eliminating support all together for another damage dealer will be very appealing.
Support is there to ensure less downtime and to help out at both ends. Be it enfeebling or madrigal to help melees finish mob quicker or back up cures. But really, would all those helps of the support be needed when just adding one more damage dealer would compensate for those offensive abilities? While the MP end have already been taken care of? Where is the need for support?
There can never be enough mp yes? but you failed to realized the vast majority of toys at the disposal of mages to help them regain mp (clearmind, refresh equip etc.) Now they also get refresh and convert?
Unlike Trick attack or Steal where general effect are much less effective if subbed, spells does not work like that.Spells aren't usually nerf that much, especially if it is cast on your self or allies. Poisona or regen on a subjob work the same as on a main job, its just up to your skills in that particular area and gears that will affect the potency. What category does refresh fall under? certainly a category that as a whitemage or blackmage would have up very high anyhow.
Squeenix probabbly won't be able to take out refresh or convert on a subjob even if they wanted to. You seem to be dreaming of all these things, and sure enough this is a fantasy thread after all. But keep this in mind, any patches and addition Squeenix implemented have to work with the existing system.
Putting another cap at 75 in order to reach the new jobs sound tempting, kinda like working your way to 30 to be a paladin, but keep this in mind, it breed resentment.
Take summoner, it use to be you have to be at least sixty or mid fifties to be able to get a hold of an avatars. People ******* all over about how they have to play for months just to be able to play the job they want, and guessed what happen? all avatars saved fenrir can now be quested at level 20.
The time it take you to get from 1-65 is half the game, 66-75 is another half of the game. Putting in extra jobs cap 75 would appeased the high levels yet if the job list was going to be part of the appeal, kinda suck that you have to play for 6 months to a year to access them.
Putting new jobs high level exclusive only won't really get rid of the boredom you get at high level. Its always gonna be there. There are more than enough jobs to go back and level already if he/she so chooses. If anything, it introduced problems. The current party mixes are already efficient, throwing in new, redesign roles requires probably a whole new game, not just patches.
This game and its subjob system was designed to save Squeenix from having to add a whole list of 16 jobs like other MMORPG.
You seemed to misunderstand my point about Ninja ALTERING the structure of play, I did not said it ruined balance. My point was that one single change in job dynamic can alter the way the game is played. If just ninja alter the way tanking works, subbing redmage at 82 would alter alot of things, first and foremost the destruction of the support class.
True you have 82 levels to play support before it become obsolete, what will support jobs strive for? End game that saw them no longer needed in most activities aka the THIEF syndrome?
FYI: Ninja were never meant to be tanks, SE stated this themselves in an interview with a Japanese magazine. They were meant to be elemental enfeebler/moderate attacker. Ninja hasn't overshadowed paladin because They were not design as tank. The latest Utsu patch dumped down their appeal a little bit more, but not by much.
Their high eva was design so that they are less strain on the mp source. They were the perfect sixth man to a party. Utsusemi just proves much more useful than it was intended. As for proof of SE's intention? I've followed this issued of tank vs tank for quite a while on several forums and its a general known fact that SE didn't design ninja to tank. You're welcome to try and do research on the actual doccument. I can try to find it and PM it if you're so interested.
Now if you are a ninja and doesn't sub warrior good luck finding a party. Good luck trying to experiement with other subs and explain to your party your worth. For a while, many flirted with nin/thief for added evasion bonus and dex, essentially the sixth man job, yet the appeal of a nin tank proves too much and it was more effecient for nin to tank.
I threw in the tanking paragraphs not to argue which is better. I was inteded to show that once there was paladin and war, SE said lets there be ninja and there he was, now both they argued about who is best.
Introduction of just one job changed it all, nin for the better I would agreed. But raising caps and new jobs wouldn't IMHO.
Now if you want to here's my 2 cent also on the subject of war tanking
Keep in mind that when paladin and war were sole tanks (without nin), level cap was also 50 and the game's mob are mid 60s at best. Past level 50 you should notice that the IT level jumped to about 5-7 levels instead of 2 or 3.
Meaning before a mob con IT to you for 1 or 2 levels now will still be IT for 3-5 levels. Mobs essentially are harder at the end even though they still use the same moves. Now you see why you can level off robber crabs starting from 52>>57 and still get good exp. In kazam you level once and suddenly exp go to crap. The ratio of player vs mob level increased dramatically after 50.
War/nin was never a real tank post Jungle before AF body, and afterward, not a very efficient one until 74. Regardless of what a warrior thinks he can do as a tank past the kazam level, he is not an efficient tank. If war/nin tank going well, you either :
-Fight mob that your party can handle easily and should move on to harder mobs
-Possesed a party set up of alot of nukers that make the battle quick. Insert hate holding problems here.
-Have another warrior to share tanking duty, therefore it is not 1 warrior but 2 that are tanking.
-or Really slow exp and downtime.
Again this was highjacked to some unseen tangent and I appologized, just wanted to clarify what I meant.
Regarding the Bluemage thing. If you have fought all the way to endgame you know that you fight essentially: Shelled (pug, crawler, crabs, beetles) and softbody (rabbit,flies, onions, shrooms) Throw in a few beastmen,bone and the occasional gollum and there's the whole game. There it is, around 10 mobs in the whole game for you to chew on.
Now believe it or not, they all DO THE SAME MOVE over and over again. A pugil in Gustav Cavern level 70 does the same damn thing as the one in Valkurm level 18. True mob dont' used all their ablities, but kinda hard when you only got like 2 to use. Don't believe me? get a bst and charm a mob than have it used TP (SIC), see how many moves it have? It would be nice to do 1k needle to a cactuar, but how many have you fight during your whole game?
Another point is balance.
What role does the blue mage fit in the partying scheme? is he a support? DD? tank? or healer? would SE make it so he can solo? those facts must also be considered. Would a party pick a blue mage in place of the traditional set up? depend on how useful he is, and as of current set up, not much at all.
Blue mage would only be interesting, if the mobs selection were changed. Unfortunately, "Easy exp" still wins, and while you can also level off tigers in batalia for a change, going onions in Yuhtunga will give you an easier time. So for now, those small selection of mobs are all you have.
Another FYI: TP gain WAS a glitch that was fixed. It does not only affected Dragoon, but monk and Samurai as well. The different is, both of those jobs can compensate for it with other abilities. Monk being better DOT and Samurai for renkei flexibility. Dragoons are more than capable of being DD, but there are better. You don't want a capable party, you want the best for your effort.
Also, people make this game so player skills and attitude accounts for much more than game design. Speaking from game design point of view however, dragoon was let down after the TP patch.
Overall we all wish for little things to improve our fictional lives. Some of those are quite possible. New mog house, change in party seeking, new mob selection etc. Introducing new jobs and raising the level caps however, I don't see as a very good addition, and for the reasons above, certainly wouldn't be what I hope for, it would be another game.
Highjacking thread end, my appology and thank you for replying.
Edited, Fri Nov 19 19:33:28 2004 by Bowser
[hijacksomemore]
Haven't been much able to follow this thread, due to first my internet going cablooie, and then having my very own self hijacked away by the dragoon arguement from hell.
Bowser, I'm considering how to reply. You argued particularly convincingly, and I'm taking the time to think long about your points before replying.
A couple of things worth mentioning:
Whenever I hear about people wanting SEI to add more jobs, they never have any actual suggestions about what those jobs might be, and it consistantly gets on my nerves. That was more the intent of my post really, to actually offer some ideas and suggestions.
And as for blue mage, I actually don't see much point in one either, I added it simply because I knew SOMEONE was gonna add it, and I thought I'd get it out of the way.
As such, I certainly concede that the usefulness of a BLU in this game is highly questionable, and since I didn't really care about this one in the first place, I see no real reason to continue defending it. =P
Regarding your many other well-argued points, I shall take thought and reply at some point tomorrow I should think.
Regarding my misunderstanding of your meaning in several areas, I apologize sincerely.
Patience, and I will reply anon. ^^
(Yes, I just used anon in casual conversation. Yes, I'm a big geek. ^^ )
[/hijacksomemore]
[Edit: Fixing the worst english I've ever used. "A couple of things worth mentioning is this"? Where did I learn english, the School of All Your Base Are Belong To Us? Gah! GAH I say!]
[Edit!! /cry fixed another case of what my friend calls "Word syntax order not in". Perhaps this is why I got a D- in English 102 in college.]
[Post-script: Actually I got a D- because the professor was the archtype of bad teacher-student feedback. But that's a story for another day. =P ]
Edited, Sat Nov 20 12:51:44 2004 by nataraja
Haven't been much able to follow this thread, due to first my internet going cablooie, and then having my very own self hijacked away by the dragoon arguement from hell.
Bowser, I'm considering how to reply. You argued particularly convincingly, and I'm taking the time to think long about your points before replying.
A couple of things worth mentioning:
Whenever I hear about people wanting SEI to add more jobs, they never have any actual suggestions about what those jobs might be, and it consistantly gets on my nerves. That was more the intent of my post really, to actually offer some ideas and suggestions.
And as for blue mage, I actually don't see much point in one either, I added it simply because I knew SOMEONE was gonna add it, and I thought I'd get it out of the way.
As such, I certainly concede that the usefulness of a BLU in this game is highly questionable, and since I didn't really care about this one in the first place, I see no real reason to continue defending it. =P
Regarding your many other well-argued points, I shall take thought and reply at some point tomorrow I should think.
Regarding my misunderstanding of your meaning in several areas, I apologize sincerely.
Patience, and I will reply anon. ^^
(Yes, I just used anon in casual conversation. Yes, I'm a big geek. ^^ )
[/hijacksomemore]
[Edit: Fixing the worst english I've ever used. "A couple of things worth mentioning is this"? Where did I learn english, the School of All Your Base Are Belong To Us? Gah! GAH I say!]
[Edit!! /cry fixed another case of what my friend calls "Word syntax order not in". Perhaps this is why I got a D- in English 102 in college.]
[Post-script: Actually I got a D- because the professor was the archtype of bad teacher-student feedback. But that's a story for another day. =P ]
Edited, Sat Nov 20 12:51:44 2004 by nataraja
Yes it may seem like it would be really imbalanced to extend the level cap.
Ill use Rdm because I dont know a whole lot about Bard.
You cant really nerf spells true...but Convert could maybe only do 50% or less maybe. I could see Rdms having Refresh 2 Regen 2, or even a new spell with a combination of both(hell Regenaga would be awesome), also Raise II some black -aga spells thrown in, an enhancement to the En- spells. What Im getting at is I think SE could make it viable for support classes to go beyond 82.
not much of an arguement...but I never said I was good at it^^;
Ill use Rdm because I dont know a whole lot about Bard.
You cant really nerf spells true...but Convert could maybe only do 50% or less maybe. I could see Rdms having Refresh 2 Regen 2, or even a new spell with a combination of both(hell Regenaga would be awesome), also Raise II some black -aga spells thrown in, an enhancement to the En- spells. What Im getting at is I think SE could make it viable for support classes to go beyond 82.
not much of an arguement...but I never said I was good at it^^;
i would like to see players able to equip the weapons of their subjobs as well as their main jobs. imagine a RDM/DRK with a scythe? or a greatsword? i am a RDM/SAM, i'd love to use a great katana at all times. having a second active support job would be nice too, like after you hit 60 or something. probably see a lot of RDM/BLM/WHM (i'd go RDM/SAM/NIN)
yeah,BUM would be funny as hell for a blue mage, maybe they would use BLU or something?
Blue Mage is a cool idea, but I really have a problem with gaining cool *** abilities by getting the crap kicked outta me :) Not sure if this has been said: Blue Mage would be neat, but it would be a huge *** imbalance and they'd have to nerf the hell outta it. Imagine being able to goblin bomb as a PC or Curse as a PC... yeah it'd be really cool, but squeenix'd have to send some seriously messed up stuff after us... then, we'd be able to steal that ability as well tough...hmmmm... Sorry if this point has already been made, the ability to read loooong posts is hampered a bit when you have two toddlers climbing on you and wanting your attention :)
Long thought concluded. Long post begins. Let the piratical hijacking ensue! YARRR!
Thank you. Bring these flaws on then. ^^
I would interject here that main job limitations on 2hr's would seem to indicate that perhaps causing some spells to be main job only would not require as substantial rewrite of code as you suggest elsewhere. But then, perhaps not. I do not have access to the game's source code.
Unfortunately I think a number of the ideas, and also much of the room for diversity of viable strategy in this game is greatly hurt by the way in which we choose as a community to play this game.
I should point out an idea I mentioned earlier, on which you have yet to comment. The idea of giving a Refreshga spell to WHM at 82 and a Refresh 2 spell to RDM and a similar spell to BRD, allowing Refresh 2 effects to stack on top of Refresh, but not Refresh on Refresh (rendering moot any gain from subbing RDM.
By similar arguement, subbing RDM would be passed up due to limited usefullness (great, you can Refresh yourself, but the WHM is already doing that, and the RDM is dropping Refresh 2) in lieu of other subjobs that would help to end the battle quicker.
The crucial point of balance of course would be making magic costs such that having Refresh and Refresh 2 on at the same time be necessary.
Generally speaking this wouldn't really require a code rewrite, if done in an intelligent manner. Refresh 2 would just have to carry a different... signature (for lack of a better word) than Refresh.
I'm curious as to your thoughts regarding that.
Again, that would depend on proper balancing of mp costs.
I honestly found your tone kind of insulting here. Disregarding that, I would argue that it could CERTAINLY be done. Code is a very fluid thing. But I direct your attention to the complete rewrite of the frontpage GUI several months ago. Granted, they did a ****-poor job on it and it STILL doesn't work quite right (slow as hell, etc, though it is getting faster, bit by bit). Though more simplistic than some of the game coding, it was more than just a face lift, whole sections of code were rewritten.
The one point I will agree on though is that regardless of whether or not it CAN be done, SEI's programmers generally lack the skill, imo. I get the impression from time to time that many of them smoke crack habitually.
Perhaps. I might point out though that having the avatar battles require such a high level to acquire was pretty dumb in the first place. Though I think maybe 20 or even 30 is a bit low. Somewhere between 30 and 40 would make more sense to me. But I digress...
The biggest difference here is that you aren't missing anything as important as the avatars. In my experience the elementals suck majorly. Avatars add to the validity of a SMN in pt. Similar to not wanting to party with RDM pre-41 (something with which I disagree), no one wants to party with a SMN without at least SOME avatars.
All the possible duties in pt are covered, and covered well by existing job types. Similarly, the Basic jobs also cover existing duties. And I've never seen resentment that you have to get to level 30 before you can open them. Instead this seems to inspire people to keep at it, when they've hit a rut.
It's not entirely inconceivable that advanced jobs would have a similar effect on post 30 leveling.
I can think of compelling arguements for putting advanced jobs at 65 or 75.
But keep in mind that these ideas we're discussing are something, if I were SEI, I would put in place down the road 6 months or more. CoP just came out scant months ago, and we still know very little about its added content. I'm thinking of what I might consider doing, if I were SEI, to maintain interest in what, next year, will be a 3 year old MMORPG.
I think you're arguing semantics. Patches, New game, I don't see how these are pertinant.
And my thinking here is intended to add additional layers of strategy to the game, a point you appear to have missed thus far.
It didn't alter the way tanking works at all, Paladin works just the same as it always did, minus tweaks. Ninja just offers another tanking option, and BOTH are useful. It adds strategy.
Thread continued in another post. For whatevery reason, Allakhazam won't let my quote markups work past this point. -_-
Edited, Mon Nov 22 06:03:32 2004 by nataraja
Bowser wrote:
Ok Nataraja, you touched upon several points about the game and your reasons are well thought out. However, they are flawed and you have every right to be since after all its only a suggestion thread.
Thank you. Bring these flaws on then. ^^
Bowser wrote:
Here are the reason why I think raising levels or adding more jobs isn't such a good idea.
8< Snip to conserve space
At one point in this game, everyone thought that the level cap would be raised to 99 and then stop, after all, its been done with most other FF games to date. Several problems arose when all the new spiffy job abilities were added post 40s.
The game dynamics is such that a party is divided into
8< Snip
Now raising level cap would produced the imbalanced I've stated in the previous thread regarding every mages subbing redmage for refresh. Where would Bards and Redmages fit in to this scheme? The game design is such that while WS can be jobs exclusive, the same is not true with magic.
An ability such as weapon skills are native to either job or proficientcy with certain weapons, magic and songs and summons are designed free for all. Such things are true also with job abilities and trait save for 2 hrs. As long as you reached the required level with your subjob, you can use.
8< Snip to conserve space
At one point in this game, everyone thought that the level cap would be raised to 99 and then stop, after all, its been done with most other FF games to date. Several problems arose when all the new spiffy job abilities were added post 40s.
The game dynamics is such that a party is divided into
8< Snip
Now raising level cap would produced the imbalanced I've stated in the previous thread regarding every mages subbing redmage for refresh. Where would Bards and Redmages fit in to this scheme? The game design is such that while WS can be jobs exclusive, the same is not true with magic.
An ability such as weapon skills are native to either job or proficientcy with certain weapons, magic and songs and summons are designed free for all. Such things are true also with job abilities and trait save for 2 hrs. As long as you reached the required level with your subjob, you can use.
I would interject here that main job limitations on 2hr's would seem to indicate that perhaps causing some spells to be main job only would not require as substantial rewrite of code as you suggest elsewhere. But then, perhaps not. I do not have access to the game's source code.
Bowser wrote:
I hate to admit but every whitemage look at bards as mp regen *****. Melee generally dont' even notice what songs is being played to them, just as long as they have the two songs icon. I could be playing goblin gavochete all day on the melee side and no one would cared. I have 72 levels of bards under belt and no I did not play goblin gavochete the whole time, just 3/4 :-)
AS long as the MP ticks on the mages, thats all the reason they would invite the bard. I am a bard and would like to think there's more to my job than this, and there is to me. Just a majority doesn't think this way. Redmage's role pre 40 was : enfeebler/back up cures with the occasional nukes for 3 damages. Try meeleing and you get yelled at.
Past 40s you got a plethora of things to do that only you as a redmage can do. Bst aimed to get to 35 for release, redm to 41 for refresh and convert before that, its their holy grail. Where would they stand in this new world? Most of the redmage only spells the mages that sub RDM would also have, along with refresh and convert. Where do they stand?
This MP ***** = support job thing is sad yes, but it exist. I've fought almost all of the HNM available pre chain of promethia and the sole reason most of the time I'm there was to sing ballads. Now imagine if my role was not needed after everyone can take care of their own needs? There can never be enough MP yes? but at some point supports are gonna be passed over for other jobs that can end the battle quickers.
No I'm not complaining about my jobs' useful ness as in the current state, supports are very much needed, yet what about after every mages can have refresh and convert? Like the TP nerf the Gimped the dragoons, it would gimped US. You have also heard thief complaining that their roles are less and less in the high 60's and HNM scene? same situation.
AS long as the MP ticks on the mages, thats all the reason they would invite the bard. I am a bard and would like to think there's more to my job than this, and there is to me. Just a majority doesn't think this way. Redmage's role pre 40 was : enfeebler/back up cures with the occasional nukes for 3 damages. Try meeleing and you get yelled at.
Past 40s you got a plethora of things to do that only you as a redmage can do. Bst aimed to get to 35 for release, redm to 41 for refresh and convert before that, its their holy grail. Where would they stand in this new world? Most of the redmage only spells the mages that sub RDM would also have, along with refresh and convert. Where do they stand?
This MP ***** = support job thing is sad yes, but it exist. I've fought almost all of the HNM available pre chain of promethia and the sole reason most of the time I'm there was to sing ballads. Now imagine if my role was not needed after everyone can take care of their own needs? There can never be enough MP yes? but at some point supports are gonna be passed over for other jobs that can end the battle quickers.
No I'm not complaining about my jobs' useful ness as in the current state, supports are very much needed, yet what about after every mages can have refresh and convert? Like the TP nerf the Gimped the dragoons, it would gimped US. You have also heard thief complaining that their roles are less and less in the high 60's and HNM scene? same situation.
Unfortunately I think a number of the ideas, and also much of the room for diversity of viable strategy in this game is greatly hurt by the way in which we choose as a community to play this game.
I should point out an idea I mentioned earlier, on which you have yet to comment. The idea of giving a Refreshga spell to WHM at 82 and a Refresh 2 spell to RDM and a similar spell to BRD, allowing Refresh 2 effects to stack on top of Refresh, but not Refresh on Refresh (rendering moot any gain from subbing RDM.
By similar arguement, subbing RDM would be passed up due to limited usefullness (great, you can Refresh yourself, but the WHM is already doing that, and the RDM is dropping Refresh 2) in lieu of other subjobs that would help to end the battle quicker.
The crucial point of balance of course would be making magic costs such that having Refresh and Refresh 2 on at the same time be necessary.
Generally speaking this wouldn't really require a code rewrite, if done in an intelligent manner. Refresh 2 would just have to carry a different... signature (for lack of a better word) than Refresh.
I'm curious as to your thoughts regarding that.
Bowser wrote:
8< because I've covered a lot of this already
There can never be enough mp yes? but you failed to realized the vast majority of toys at the disposal of mages to help them regain mp (clearmind, refresh equip etc.) Now they also get refresh and convert?
There can never be enough mp yes? but you failed to realized the vast majority of toys at the disposal of mages to help them regain mp (clearmind, refresh equip etc.) Now they also get refresh and convert?
Again, that would depend on proper balancing of mp costs.
Bowser wrote:
8< mad snippage
Squeenix probabbly won't be able to take out refresh or convert on a subjob even if they wanted to. You seem to be dreaming of all these things, and sure enough this is a fantasy thread after all. But keep this in mind, any patches and addition Squeenix implemented have to work with the existing system.
Squeenix probabbly won't be able to take out refresh or convert on a subjob even if they wanted to. You seem to be dreaming of all these things, and sure enough this is a fantasy thread after all. But keep this in mind, any patches and addition Squeenix implemented have to work with the existing system.
I honestly found your tone kind of insulting here. Disregarding that, I would argue that it could CERTAINLY be done. Code is a very fluid thing. But I direct your attention to the complete rewrite of the frontpage GUI several months ago. Granted, they did a ****-poor job on it and it STILL doesn't work quite right (slow as hell, etc, though it is getting faster, bit by bit). Though more simplistic than some of the game coding, it was more than just a face lift, whole sections of code were rewritten.
The one point I will agree on though is that regardless of whether or not it CAN be done, SEI's programmers generally lack the skill, imo. I get the impression from time to time that many of them smoke crack habitually.
Bowser wrote:
Putting another cap at 75 in order to reach the new jobs sound tempting, kinda like working your way to 30 to be a paladin, but keep this in mind, it breed resentment.
Take summoner, it use to be you have to be at least sixty or mid fifties to be able to get a hold of an avatars. People ******* all over about how they have to play for months just to be able to play the job they want, and guessed what happen? all avatars saved fenrir can now be quested at level 20.
Take summoner, it use to be you have to be at least sixty or mid fifties to be able to get a hold of an avatars. People ******* all over about how they have to play for months just to be able to play the job they want, and guessed what happen? all avatars saved fenrir can now be quested at level 20.
Perhaps. I might point out though that having the avatar battles require such a high level to acquire was pretty dumb in the first place. Though I think maybe 20 or even 30 is a bit low. Somewhere between 30 and 40 would make more sense to me. But I digress...
The biggest difference here is that you aren't missing anything as important as the avatars. In my experience the elementals suck majorly. Avatars add to the validity of a SMN in pt. Similar to not wanting to party with RDM pre-41 (something with which I disagree), no one wants to party with a SMN without at least SOME avatars.
All the possible duties in pt are covered, and covered well by existing job types. Similarly, the Basic jobs also cover existing duties. And I've never seen resentment that you have to get to level 30 before you can open them. Instead this seems to inspire people to keep at it, when they've hit a rut.
It's not entirely inconceivable that advanced jobs would have a similar effect on post 30 leveling.
Bowser wrote:
The time it take you to get from 1-65 is half the game, 66-75 is another half of the game. Putting in extra jobs cap 75 would appeased the high levels yet if the job list was going to be part of the appeal, kinda suck that you have to play for 6 months to a year to access them.
I can think of compelling arguements for putting advanced jobs at 65 or 75.
But keep in mind that these ideas we're discussing are something, if I were SEI, I would put in place down the road 6 months or more. CoP just came out scant months ago, and we still know very little about its added content. I'm thinking of what I might consider doing, if I were SEI, to maintain interest in what, next year, will be a 3 year old MMORPG.
Bowser wrote:
Putting new jobs high level exclusive only won't really get rid of the boredom you get at high level. Its always gonna be there. There are more than enough jobs to go back and level already if he/she so chooses. If anything, it introduced problems. The current party mixes are already efficient, throwing in new, redesign roles requires probably a whole new game, not just patches.
I think you're arguing semantics. Patches, New game, I don't see how these are pertinant.
And my thinking here is intended to add additional layers of strategy to the game, a point you appear to have missed thus far.
Boswer wrote:
8< snip again
You seemed to misunderstand my point about Ninja ALTERING the structure of play, I did not said it ruined balance. My point was that one single change in job dynamic can alter the way the game is played. If just ninja alter the way tanking works, subbing redmage at 82 would alter alot of things, first and foremost the destruction of the support class.
You seemed to misunderstand my point about Ninja ALTERING the structure of play, I did not said it ruined balance. My point was that one single change in job dynamic can alter the way the game is played. If just ninja alter the way tanking works, subbing redmage at 82 would alter alot of things, first and foremost the destruction of the support class.
It didn't alter the way tanking works at all, Paladin works just the same as it always did, minus tweaks. Ninja just offers another tanking option, and BOTH are useful. It adds strategy.
Thread continued in another post. For whatevery reason, Allakhazam won't let my quote markups work past this point. -_-
Edited, Mon Nov 22 06:03:32 2004 by nataraja
Bowser wrote:
8< snippage
mondo snippage in fact, to preserve thread economy
I threw in the tanking paragraphs not to argue which is better. I was inteded to show that once there was paladin and war, SE said lets there be ninja and there he was, now both they argued about who is best.
Introduction of just one job changed it all, nin for the better I would agreed. But raising caps and new jobs wouldn't IMHO.
mondo snippage in fact, to preserve thread economy
I threw in the tanking paragraphs not to argue which is better. I was inteded to show that once there was paladin and war, SE said lets there be ninja and there he was, now both they argued about who is best.
Introduction of just one job changed it all, nin for the better I would agreed. But raising caps and new jobs wouldn't IMHO.
And I would again point out that sometimes we limit ourselves beyond the constraints of the game.
And I remain unconvinced that it couldn't be done. Although I agree that SEI would probably f*ck it up beyond all belief.
I agree also that the game is badly balanced. But that's a seperate arguement entirely.
Bowser wrote:
8< Snipped a HUGE tangent about WAR tanking =P
Regarding the Bluemage thing. If you have fought all the way to endgame you know that you fight essentially: Shelled (pug, crawler, crabs, beetles) and softbody (rabbit,flies, onions, shrooms) Throw in a few beastmen,bone and the occasional gollum and there's the whole game. There it is, around 10 mobs in the whole game for you to chew on.
Now believe it or not, they all DO THE SAME MOVE over and over again. A pugil in Gustav Cavern level 70 does the same damn thing as the one in Valkurm level 18. True mob dont' used all their ablities, but kinda hard when you only got like 2 to use. Don't believe me? get a bst and charm a mob than have it used TP (SIC), see how many moves it have? It would be nice to do 1k needle to a cactuar, but how many have you fight during your whole game?
Another point is balance.
What role does the blue mage fit in the partying scheme? is he a support? DD? tank? or healer? would SE make it so he can solo? those facts must also be considered. Would a party pick a blue mage in place of the traditional set up? depend on how useful he is, and as of current set up, not much at all.
Blue mage would only be interesting, if the mobs selection were changed. Unfortunately, "Easy exp" still wins, and while you can also level off tigers in batalia for a change, going onions in Yuhtunga will give you an easier time. So for now, those small selection of mobs are all you have.
Regarding the Bluemage thing. If you have fought all the way to endgame you know that you fight essentially: Shelled (pug, crawler, crabs, beetles) and softbody (rabbit,flies, onions, shrooms) Throw in a few beastmen,bone and the occasional gollum and there's the whole game. There it is, around 10 mobs in the whole game for you to chew on.
Now believe it or not, they all DO THE SAME MOVE over and over again. A pugil in Gustav Cavern level 70 does the same damn thing as the one in Valkurm level 18. True mob dont' used all their ablities, but kinda hard when you only got like 2 to use. Don't believe me? get a bst and charm a mob than have it used TP (SIC), see how many moves it have? It would be nice to do 1k needle to a cactuar, but how many have you fight during your whole game?
Another point is balance.
What role does the blue mage fit in the partying scheme? is he a support? DD? tank? or healer? would SE make it so he can solo? those facts must also be considered. Would a party pick a blue mage in place of the traditional set up? depend on how useful he is, and as of current set up, not much at all.
Blue mage would only be interesting, if the mobs selection were changed. Unfortunately, "Easy exp" still wins, and while you can also level off tigers in batalia for a change, going onions in Yuhtunga will give you an easier time. So for now, those small selection of mobs are all you have.
I refer you to my last post, if you haven't seen it yet. I made comment on Blue Mages there. =P
Bowser wrote:
Another FYI: TP gain WAS a glitch that was fixed. It does not only affected Dragoon, but monk and Samurai as well. The different is, both of those jobs can compensate for it with other abilities. Monk being better DOT and Samurai for renkei flexibility. Dragoons are more than capable of being DD, but there are better. You don't want a capable party, you want the best for your effort.
Also, people make this game so player skills and attitude accounts for much more than game design. Speaking from game design point of view however, dragoon was let down after the TP patch.
Also, people make this game so player skills and attitude accounts for much more than game design. Speaking from game design point of view however, dragoon was let down after the TP patch.
Oh god, don't bring up DRG in here. I've had my fill of this arguement in another thread, in which I managed to **** off a bunch of monks. I was subsequently pummeled. ^^ (jk Celestia)
Bowser wrote:
Overall we all wish for little things to improve our fictional lives. Some of those are quite possible. New mog house, change in party seeking, new mob selection etc. Introducing new jobs and raising the level caps however, I don't see as a very good addition, and for the reasons above, certainly wouldn't be what I hope for, it would be another game.
Here's one other thing I would change.
Fix the goddamned delivery system.
It takes me half an hour to mail anything or access my Delivery Box. I am told repeatedly that "Communications seem to be congested."
Okay, that's just ************************** programming. Trading works fine, placing things on AH works fine, buying from AH works fine, and all of these are essentially a type of delivery system.
But you involve the damned Moogles and everything goes to hell.
I think they really ARE all addicted to KupoCocaine. -_-
[/hijack]
Will it be the last one? *dum-dum-dum*
Hey Bowser, just so you know...I watch the BRDs. I make sure they've got me Preluded. ^^
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