I recently came across this article:
http://www.nickyee.com/daedalus/archives/000860.php?page=3
which pretty much covers MMO drama, and how it can sometimes affect the lives behind the monitor. The link goes to page three, which is a story about a player named Vixen who later accuses her guild of being raped by a member.
But what really caught my attention, are the two responses on the bottom.
"I have seen three R/L husband/wife players in my guild divorce because one or the other or both started affairs with people they met in the game, plus there are at least as many more R/L "couples" that broke up and formed new liasons with other players. Almost all of this occuring among players within the guild. A couple people have gone through multiple partners. It is like the worst soap opera you could imagine. Of course, everyone takes sides when these things are revealed and eventually folks quit the guild or quit the game over it."
"I have been through this. An ex girlfriend of mine left me for a man she met in EQ. In the three years we were together I cheated on her with three different women I met in EQ. I have had sexual relationships with 11 different women in the 5+ years I have played, some of whom were married when we met and some of those got caught. It is more than a game for a lot of people/"
When I read this, I was absolutely shocked. But then I realized, it's not so unrealistic. My friend who I used to play EverQuest with, met a girl through the game. They eventually expressed interest in meeting each other. My friend would drive two hours to meet her every other weekend, where they both sort of decided sexual engagements would be okay. The stories told to me by my friend are a bit explicit for me to type out.
We were both 15 when it happened. She was 14. If we were just kids, then things like the stories above should not be surprising for adults.
I'm 18 now, and I really don't know what to expect anymore. I'm not worried about becoming one of those people, I'm worried about running into them. I don't want to see it happen in front of me. The last thing I want is to get stress from Linkshell drama, from a GAME... a game I play to relieve stress from daily grind.
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It's very easy, just keep in mind this is just a game ^^
Certain aspects are taken way to seriously. Come on, if my wife needs help with something I tell my group, sorry, I have 15min left, gotta go help my wife. Or something like that. I always try to give them enough time to find a replacement, but there's a point where real life takes precedence.
Usually I preplan big events like XP, Missions, etc ahead of time so I can still give her the attention she deserves and still get things done in the game ^^ This helps me avoid the situations above. Everyone who groups with me has heard me say something like "AFK to get my wife some Ice Cream and pickles" or something like that.
As far as meeting others in the game IRL, I don't think that's such a good idea. Except for a few instances. There's a person I met a long time ago when we both first started who's come to be a good friend. He and his wife both play, and I wouldn't mind going to visit them (They live in a state where Micro Breweries are all over the place, and being the beer snob that I am would love to try them all, Gretchen, I still need to send you some cash for a sampler box of brew ^^). Will I ever get out there? I doubt it. Would I be open to the option? Sure.
The reason why is because we are friends only, there's no danger of a romantic encounter :) We are both of the same age, and seem to be in the same place in life. This is the ONLY person I would consider going to meet, everyone else is nice enough, but I don't seem to have much in common^^
I guess being a little bit older this kind of behaviour is shocking to me, I can't imagine leaving my wife for ANYONE, let alone someone I met over the internet in a video game. Makes me think that the marriage wasn't that stable to begin with if this kind of thing is happening. I knew when I met my wife that I would never leave her, and that feeling has been cemented in granite now that we're expecting our first child.
/em shakes his head
It's just a game people
Edited, Tue Nov 2 17:24:27 2004 by Wintaru
Certain aspects are taken way to seriously. Come on, if my wife needs help with something I tell my group, sorry, I have 15min left, gotta go help my wife. Or something like that. I always try to give them enough time to find a replacement, but there's a point where real life takes precedence.
Usually I preplan big events like XP, Missions, etc ahead of time so I can still give her the attention she deserves and still get things done in the game ^^ This helps me avoid the situations above. Everyone who groups with me has heard me say something like "AFK to get my wife some Ice Cream and pickles" or something like that.
As far as meeting others in the game IRL, I don't think that's such a good idea. Except for a few instances. There's a person I met a long time ago when we both first started who's come to be a good friend. He and his wife both play, and I wouldn't mind going to visit them (They live in a state where Micro Breweries are all over the place, and being the beer snob that I am would love to try them all, Gretchen, I still need to send you some cash for a sampler box of brew ^^). Will I ever get out there? I doubt it. Would I be open to the option? Sure.
The reason why is because we are friends only, there's no danger of a romantic encounter :) We are both of the same age, and seem to be in the same place in life. This is the ONLY person I would consider going to meet, everyone else is nice enough, but I don't seem to have much in common^^
I guess being a little bit older this kind of behaviour is shocking to me, I can't imagine leaving my wife for ANYONE, let alone someone I met over the internet in a video game. Makes me think that the marriage wasn't that stable to begin with if this kind of thing is happening. I knew when I met my wife that I would never leave her, and that feeling has been cemented in granite now that we're expecting our first child.
/em shakes his head
It's just a game people
Edited, Tue Nov 2 17:24:27 2004 by Wintaru
Win, I have a new found respect for you. You took the words right out of my mouth.
And, Congratulations on the kid!
oober rate up for you, Buddy.
Edited, Tue Nov 2 17:46:09 2004 by Zariko
And, Congratulations on the kid!
oober rate up for you, Buddy.
Edited, Tue Nov 2 17:46:09 2004 by Zariko
Thanks^^
Wasn't meaning to preach, but I just find this amazing that people do this. Aren't the vows you take committing yourself to another sacred anymore? Are they so weak that you are willing to shatter them for someone on the other end of a pixelated character?
I shake my head again ^^
Thanks, my poor kid will be fighting me for the PS2, at least we'll have something in common ^^
Wasn't meaning to preach, but I just find this amazing that people do this. Aren't the vows you take committing yourself to another sacred anymore? Are they so weak that you are willing to shatter them for someone on the other end of a pixelated character?
I shake my head again ^^
Thanks, my poor kid will be fighting me for the PS2, at least we'll have something in common ^^
Have seen this kind of stuff happen before and it never is too pretty ^^; Haven't seen it happen ingame yet (though other drama I have), but it was in an other mmorpg.
She had met her boyfriend in the game (ragnarok online) and had a relationship with him for about a year. For several reasons they broke up, but the instant after that she already had a new boyfriend whom she also met online and in the same game. Didn't last too long either since she found herself a new boyfriend again near her and focused on that guy. Never seen her again :x
Her mom, dad and brother also played the game and I guess they were just fine with it ^^; But, the mom also divorced her dad because he thought that she liked someone in the game way too much (they planned on meeting).
Can't really say what has happened since it was quite a while ago and an annoying expierience ^^ I personally don't think that these kind of relationships are bad, but they just bring a lot of drama into a game that should simply be fun :)
She had met her boyfriend in the game (ragnarok online) and had a relationship with him for about a year. For several reasons they broke up, but the instant after that she already had a new boyfriend whom she also met online and in the same game. Didn't last too long either since she found herself a new boyfriend again near her and focused on that guy. Never seen her again :x
Her mom, dad and brother also played the game and I guess they were just fine with it ^^; But, the mom also divorced her dad because he thought that she liked someone in the game way too much (they planned on meeting).
Can't really say what has happened since it was quite a while ago and an annoying expierience ^^ I personally don't think that these kind of relationships are bad, but they just bring a lot of drama into a game that should simply be fun :)
RW feelings in a VR(virtual reality) world...
Okay, my idea of love is a lil bit skewed first of all. I believe in the idea that before you can truly say you love them, you have to look into his or her eyes...and you will know the truth. I also believe that love is freedom. The ability to know that you cannot own someone's love, and that you have to simply trust in his or her love. Silly I know, but that's what I believe.
Okay...love in an MMORPG.
I have noticed before that in the VR world, such as Vana'diel, people act differently that they do in RW (Real world). Some people are more cold and insensitive in VR than they are in RW. Some that appear to be the most sociable people in the VR world are in reality the most shy people in RW. Others seem carefree, unthinking, careless, and childish in the game, when in reality, they have a tendency to be just the opposite.
To show a touch of the person that lies beyond the "mask", I am one of those people. I myself act childish and carefree within the VR world, when those that choose to get to know me will find something quite different beneath the surface...
*blushes lightly*
Those of you who hide who you truly are while in the game know who you are.
But what does this have to do with VR love you say? Easy.
It's these kind of "masks" that people fall in love with, only to sometimes, I repeat, SOMETIMES, wind up disappointed with when he or she interacts with that person outside the VR world...
RW love is less complex and less questioning than VR love, because in rw, you can't log out to get away from your significant "other", and you see the person for who they really are.
At least, those are my thoughts.
Okay, my idea of love is a lil bit skewed first of all. I believe in the idea that before you can truly say you love them, you have to look into his or her eyes...and you will know the truth. I also believe that love is freedom. The ability to know that you cannot own someone's love, and that you have to simply trust in his or her love. Silly I know, but that's what I believe.
Okay...love in an MMORPG.
I have noticed before that in the VR world, such as Vana'diel, people act differently that they do in RW (Real world). Some people are more cold and insensitive in VR than they are in RW. Some that appear to be the most sociable people in the VR world are in reality the most shy people in RW. Others seem carefree, unthinking, careless, and childish in the game, when in reality, they have a tendency to be just the opposite.
To show a touch of the person that lies beyond the "mask", I am one of those people. I myself act childish and carefree within the VR world, when those that choose to get to know me will find something quite different beneath the surface...
*blushes lightly*
Those of you who hide who you truly are while in the game know who you are.
But what does this have to do with VR love you say? Easy.
It's these kind of "masks" that people fall in love with, only to sometimes, I repeat, SOMETIMES, wind up disappointed with when he or she interacts with that person outside the VR world...
RW love is less complex and less questioning than VR love, because in rw, you can't log out to get away from your significant "other", and you see the person for who they really are.
At least, those are my thoughts.
Proud citizen of Miranda.
-Currently on Pochacco Server of Hello Kitty Online.
-Currently on Pochacco Server of Hello Kitty Online.
I think a lot of people hide who they truely are in game. Lots of girls are either lonely or in a bad relationship to start find a nice sweet talking man who seems to be all they ever wanted and forget the one they have in the real world. (Same goes for men) Sometimes it works out for them sometimes it doesnt they meet he is an *** the one they already had is hurt and well it all goes to hell at that point.
A lot of players are also children that are married. I know in FFXI on Bismarck there are two woman that are 17 years of age and already married. They are still kids for christs sake and have not fully enjoyed their single lifes, have not really had the chance to test the other fish in the sea. I can only imagine how cheated they feel now. Yes they could be madly in love with their husband but are not done growing up, they are not done finding who they are. Their husband might not share their intrests anymore yet that somoene in game does, they meet and ruin their real world life. I would never ever meet a man that I flirted with online with the intention of cheating and would never be able to cheat. Much less break up my relationship over a person that could be miles and miles away.
I agree with Nights you have to look into their eyes then you'll know if you love them. I know looks shouldnt matter you fall in love with the person not his appearance ect ect. You still need to see in those eyes and feel the warmth of their embrace otherwise you have nothing but text on a screen.
Edited, Tue Nov 2 21:25:19 2004 by Yahira
A lot of players are also children that are married. I know in FFXI on Bismarck there are two woman that are 17 years of age and already married. They are still kids for christs sake and have not fully enjoyed their single lifes, have not really had the chance to test the other fish in the sea. I can only imagine how cheated they feel now. Yes they could be madly in love with their husband but are not done growing up, they are not done finding who they are. Their husband might not share their intrests anymore yet that somoene in game does, they meet and ruin their real world life. I would never ever meet a man that I flirted with online with the intention of cheating and would never be able to cheat. Much less break up my relationship over a person that could be miles and miles away.
I agree with Nights you have to look into their eyes then you'll know if you love them. I know looks shouldnt matter you fall in love with the person not his appearance ect ect. You still need to see in those eyes and feel the warmth of their embrace otherwise you have nothing but text on a screen.
Edited, Tue Nov 2 21:25:19 2004 by Yahira
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Edited, Oct 7th 2011 12:01am by thislove
Edited, Oct 7th 2011 12:01am by thislove
Scholar
47 posts
I guess I'm just lucky that my boyfriend plays ffxi with me.. >.> I have a lot of really good friends in the game, quite a few outside the game that also play, and.. I don't know. I can't understand the idea of leaving someone you know you're happy with, someone you have a past with, someone you KNOW.. for someone you met in a game that might be absolutely nothing like how they act in-game. I know a lot of people have masks, have personas they wear online. Who's to say they're the same in person? Why fall in love with something fake, when you know you already have the real thing?
Bah, I'm too realistic-romantic. Usually the two don't mesh well, but gah.
Bah, I'm too realistic-romantic. Usually the two don't mesh well, but gah.
Ehh....this is a tough one.
Nightsintodreams hit it right on the head. When you meet someone on the Internet, what you get is the projected personality; the false face. That incredibly sweet, incredibly sexy guy or girl you meet online could easily be a completely different person in real life. Remember: it is SO easy to lie on the Internet. That's basically what the Internet is all about, especially in an MMORPG.
You can be anybody you want to be. If you can talk the talk, you don't HAVE to walk the walk. And that's why so many relationships end up on the rocks due to the Net; people in real life are never as appealing as people across a wire, because people in real life are flawed, uncertain, sometimes have bad moods and bad hair days and bad reactions.
On the Internet no one has a bad hair day. I know my character doesn't. I wish I knew what shampoo she uses.
The thing to remember is to keep your perspective. Keep in mind that that's a real person across the line, and there's a lot about that person that you just don't know. He might look right sexy in that Paladin AF, but the guy on the other end of the line ain't wearing no Paladin AF.
It's a natural reaction; let's face it, our brains haven't adapted to the Net yet. We still take people at face value, just like we've been doing since we were making cave pictures.
You gotta use your intelligence, that's all, and keep in mind that it's alllllll pixels, baby.
Nightsintodreams hit it right on the head. When you meet someone on the Internet, what you get is the projected personality; the false face. That incredibly sweet, incredibly sexy guy or girl you meet online could easily be a completely different person in real life. Remember: it is SO easy to lie on the Internet. That's basically what the Internet is all about, especially in an MMORPG.
You can be anybody you want to be. If you can talk the talk, you don't HAVE to walk the walk. And that's why so many relationships end up on the rocks due to the Net; people in real life are never as appealing as people across a wire, because people in real life are flawed, uncertain, sometimes have bad moods and bad hair days and bad reactions.
On the Internet no one has a bad hair day. I know my character doesn't. I wish I knew what shampoo she uses.
The thing to remember is to keep your perspective. Keep in mind that that's a real person across the line, and there's a lot about that person that you just don't know. He might look right sexy in that Paladin AF, but the guy on the other end of the line ain't wearing no Paladin AF.
It's a natural reaction; let's face it, our brains haven't adapted to the Net yet. We still take people at face value, just like we've been doing since we were making cave pictures.
You gotta use your intelligence, that's all, and keep in mind that it's alllllll pixels, baby.
In my experience the false face is projected at the initiation of RW relationships just as much as online (disregarding the creepy child-molesters and old men pretending to be young girls... -_- )
Regardless, it takes long-term real world contact to reveal what lies behind the masks.
Regardless, it takes long-term real world contact to reveal what lies behind the masks.
lol.....
Sure, when you first meet them in game.. you get a "false image."
lol this subject is awesome...
When you meet someone in RL they have on a mask. It's their (I want to impress this person mask) Everyone wears masks... certain situations cause for certain personalities.. emmotions.. decisions.. goals.. views.. and those can come off as masks...
And of course people will act differently on the net.. especially younger folks... let's see... they can run their mouth to people and not get introuble because there is no supervision... they can lie, cheat, steal, insult, bash, annoy, and do all the things that they CAN'T do in RL because either they will get grounded, suspended, beat up.. etc.. it's a sense of freedom I would think...
As to meeting someone from a game... hmm... that would be odd. What would you talk about? "Yeah I got my AF3 last night." "Cool." lol hmmmmmmmm.........
I could see where it could happen though... You meet someone in game.. you are digging them... they are really nice, cool, seems to share the same interests as you, same age, you live near each other. OK.. time to move to the next level... you start chatting out of game and over e-mails and IM. You find out more about each other.. more about the actual "person".. past experiences.. sex history.. hobbies.. and all the fun stuff... HMMM.. I need more... I can't get enough of this person.. so let's meet....
OK I have typed for like a year... probably dead ended reply with no actual sense involved.. sorry.. it's 8 AM and I am very tired.. work... ugh...
Sure, when you first meet them in game.. you get a "false image."
lol this subject is awesome...
When you meet someone in RL they have on a mask. It's their (I want to impress this person mask) Everyone wears masks... certain situations cause for certain personalities.. emmotions.. decisions.. goals.. views.. and those can come off as masks...
And of course people will act differently on the net.. especially younger folks... let's see... they can run their mouth to people and not get introuble because there is no supervision... they can lie, cheat, steal, insult, bash, annoy, and do all the things that they CAN'T do in RL because either they will get grounded, suspended, beat up.. etc.. it's a sense of freedom I would think...
As to meeting someone from a game... hmm... that would be odd. What would you talk about? "Yeah I got my AF3 last night." "Cool." lol hmmmmmmmm.........
I could see where it could happen though... You meet someone in game.. you are digging them... they are really nice, cool, seems to share the same interests as you, same age, you live near each other. OK.. time to move to the next level... you start chatting out of game and over e-mails and IM. You find out more about each other.. more about the actual "person".. past experiences.. sex history.. hobbies.. and all the fun stuff... HMMM.. I need more... I can't get enough of this person.. so let's meet....
OK I have typed for like a year... probably dead ended reply with no actual sense involved.. sorry.. it's 8 AM and I am very tired.. work... ugh...
I have an interesting story that happened last night...
Last night, one of the people in the game said that she considered me her friend...
At that point, I asked her what she really knew about me. I asked her if she knew what made me smile, made me cry, made me love, and hurt me.
She didn't say anything.
I dropped my vr mask, and showed her who I am in rw, and I asked her if the person she is in the game is who she really is.
She said no...
So I asked her "How can you call us friends, if we don't even know each other?"
She didn't reply to me, but said instead that she was at a loss for words.
I then told her that she can make a choice now. We can either start to get to know the persona that lies behind the masks, or we can continue this false charade of mask lying.
She didn't reply to me.
At all.
Sorry, just an example of what lifting a mask can do to people. VR isn't RW, and can never really be.
Last night, one of the people in the game said that she considered me her friend...
At that point, I asked her what she really knew about me. I asked her if she knew what made me smile, made me cry, made me love, and hurt me.
She didn't say anything.
I dropped my vr mask, and showed her who I am in rw, and I asked her if the person she is in the game is who she really is.
She said no...
So I asked her "How can you call us friends, if we don't even know each other?"
She didn't reply to me, but said instead that she was at a loss for words.
I then told her that she can make a choice now. We can either start to get to know the persona that lies behind the masks, or we can continue this false charade of mask lying.
She didn't reply to me.
At all.
Sorry, just an example of what lifting a mask can do to people. VR isn't RW, and can never really be.
Proud citizen of Miranda.
-Currently on Pochacco Server of Hello Kitty Online.
-Currently on Pochacco Server of Hello Kitty Online.
RW isn't RW.. and never will be..
I consider VR and RW the same.. all the players are real people.. I've met characters from other games.. got to know the person behind the mask.. and are still friends with them to this day... most people are scared to reveal the mask, scared to look at the people behind their masks.. but VR is a representation of people in the RW.. it is real.. they are real..
I consider VR and RW the same.. all the players are real people.. I've met characters from other games.. got to know the person behind the mask.. and are still friends with them to this day... most people are scared to reveal the mask, scared to look at the people behind their masks.. but VR is a representation of people in the RW.. it is real.. they are real..
About friends in Vana'diel.
I was kinda taken aback with Night's conversation. Friendship is an abstract thing. I believe it can be applicable and scaled to the environment you're in.
When I say in game 'I've a friend that could help us with this', I am not, in most cases at least, referring to the same kind of friends I hang out with in the 'real world'. But, in game, they are friends. We share a common bond, the game, and have personality traits that I enjoy or respect. So, in that environment, they are as real a friend to me as the friends I go out with. However, since the environment is quite different, the friendship has different dynamics, different definitions, but, depending on the person, that doesn't mean I see the friendship as any less than those I have here in the real world.
I've been fortunate in that a few of my virtual friendships have evolved into real world friendships. But those virtual friendships that exisit solely in the digital plain are just as valuable to me, and appreciated.
*Edit 1: Left out a key phrase
*Edit 2: I will learn to proofread one day.
Edited, Wed Nov 3 11:23:42 2004 by Raynedrop
Edited, Wed Nov 3 11:25:05 2004 by Raynedrop
I was kinda taken aback with Night's conversation. Friendship is an abstract thing. I believe it can be applicable and scaled to the environment you're in.
When I say in game 'I've a friend that could help us with this', I am not, in most cases at least, referring to the same kind of friends I hang out with in the 'real world'. But, in game, they are friends. We share a common bond, the game, and have personality traits that I enjoy or respect. So, in that environment, they are as real a friend to me as the friends I go out with. However, since the environment is quite different, the friendship has different dynamics, different definitions, but, depending on the person, that doesn't mean I see the friendship as any less than those I have here in the real world.
I've been fortunate in that a few of my virtual friendships have evolved into real world friendships. But those virtual friendships that exisit solely in the digital plain are just as valuable to me, and appreciated.
*Edit 1: Left out a key phrase
*Edit 2: I will learn to proofread one day.
Edited, Wed Nov 3 11:23:42 2004 by Raynedrop
Edited, Wed Nov 3 11:25:05 2004 by Raynedrop
I would compare online friends similar to what Rayne said. We all have different friends in life. I have drinking-friends, sports-friends, movie-friends, etc...and i guess that would include online-friends. You may argue that you aren't REALLY friends with people in-game, but I would love to hear someone say they have thus-far gone throught the game and claim they absolutely haven't come across someone who they have enjoyed playing with, hanging out, pt'ing..etc. (and still play of-course). What do you call those people?
Now for the argument about the mask you put on when you are online, well, I would once again challenge anyone who hasn't had a friend who they treat differently then an other friend. The way i interact with one friend will not be exactly how I interact with the other friend (i.e sport friend and drinking friend). The fundamental aspects of your personality will always remain, but you can skew the perception of yourself on to others by 'other' people's personality (i.e. I may seem rude and obnoxious to one person but funny to the next). Let's say you're a naturally considerate person in RL, you'll probably won't leave a dead body lying on the floor without at least shouting for a raise. It's probably not in your nature to let something like that slide. If the 'mask' metaphor was more for people who are hardcore rpg players and REALLY do act 100% differently in game than outside, /clap, you put on a fine performance.
As far as romantic relationships online go, I think they're stupid. First you require a LOT more emotional involvement with someone. For anyone who's been in a real relationship, it takes work, eventually rewarded, but well worth it. I just can't seem to see the value or enjoyement in online relationships. And don't tell me all you in-game 'married' couple say you're 'just playing for fun', are you really? What if the person you're getting married to says they are just doing it for the fun. Are you certain? really certain? I once had a friend who wanted to get married to me in-game "just to experience everything in the game"-direct quote. No emotional involvement..promise. Well, not to get into any details, I told her no (for the above reasons). Well, apparently it was only ME who wasn't supposed to have emotional attachments (I later found out).
Now this is certainly only my opinion, in no way trying to influence or knock anybody. Don't take offense if you're a 'happily married couple in-game'. I would gladly have beer (a real one of course) with a few of my comrades in game, and even hope one day it's possible. But romance is where I cross the line. I mean, sex is SO much better in person anyway..eh?;).
geezas...i wrote that much...gawd..need to get busier at work
Now for the argument about the mask you put on when you are online, well, I would once again challenge anyone who hasn't had a friend who they treat differently then an other friend. The way i interact with one friend will not be exactly how I interact with the other friend (i.e sport friend and drinking friend). The fundamental aspects of your personality will always remain, but you can skew the perception of yourself on to others by 'other' people's personality (i.e. I may seem rude and obnoxious to one person but funny to the next). Let's say you're a naturally considerate person in RL, you'll probably won't leave a dead body lying on the floor without at least shouting for a raise. It's probably not in your nature to let something like that slide. If the 'mask' metaphor was more for people who are hardcore rpg players and REALLY do act 100% differently in game than outside, /clap, you put on a fine performance.
As far as romantic relationships online go, I think they're stupid. First you require a LOT more emotional involvement with someone. For anyone who's been in a real relationship, it takes work, eventually rewarded, but well worth it. I just can't seem to see the value or enjoyement in online relationships. And don't tell me all you in-game 'married' couple say you're 'just playing for fun', are you really? What if the person you're getting married to says they are just doing it for the fun. Are you certain? really certain? I once had a friend who wanted to get married to me in-game "just to experience everything in the game"-direct quote. No emotional involvement..promise. Well, not to get into any details, I told her no (for the above reasons). Well, apparently it was only ME who wasn't supposed to have emotional attachments (I later found out).
Now this is certainly only my opinion, in no way trying to influence or knock anybody. Don't take offense if you're a 'happily married couple in-game'. I would gladly have beer (a real one of course) with a few of my comrades in game, and even hope one day it's possible. But romance is where I cross the line. I mean, sex is SO much better in person anyway..eh?;).
geezas...i wrote that much...gawd..need to get busier at work
I concur with Vimien's post.
And Nights, I think she was more at a lose for words and didn't reply because you scared her away. You made things too serious. Attached too much commitment to it. From what you've said (and I may be incorrect, as I didn't witness the actual situation) I think you might have made her feel like you didn't want her friendship.
RW or VR, you learn about what makes a person smile, and about who they are behind all the masks, over time. Or you don't. But forcing things never got anyone anywhere. =)
And Nights, I think she was more at a lose for words and didn't reply because you scared her away. You made things too serious. Attached too much commitment to it. From what you've said (and I may be incorrect, as I didn't witness the actual situation) I think you might have made her feel like you didn't want her friendship.
RW or VR, you learn about what makes a person smile, and about who they are behind all the masks, over time. Or you don't. But forcing things never got anyone anywhere. =)
This is mega interesting thread. Moreso for myself due to me being a student of sociology and psychology. Here's my thoughts on the subject matter:
First, to Mailorder, and on the nature of sexual relationships initiated in-game. Keep in mind there are two sides to every coin. Just because some relationships that start via the internet end badly dosnt mean they all do. I have heard horror stories as well as marvelous succes stories as well. These type of things have been going on since the introduction of the interent. MMO games can viewed as chatrooms in another form. And, when one thinks about it, chatrooms can be another form of a "singles bar". Its just another way for people to interact with one another.
People that use the internet for dating purposes aren't inherently evil. Chances are the horror stories you hear about would have happened anyway. If someone has intentions to cheat, they will find someone to cheat with. Adding the computer may make it a little easier perhaps, but not by that much. All it does is save a trip to a bar or two.
As for fear of "running into" people that have faulty realtionships in game, the not-so-simple answer is: avoid them. If your LS has a ton of people that are having disfunctional relationshps, chances are the LS itself is disfuntional. Find a new one that better fits with your views. I know this can be easier said than done, but finding a group to mesh with is part of the fun of MMO's.
Now, for the really interesting stuff, the subject of "masks" and whether or not one can truely get to know others in-game.
Nights, I can totaly agree with you on the subject of love and looking into someone's eyes, ect. But, what if you and your loved one were blind? I know this is a bit differnt that what you were talking about. But consider what would happen if your lover and you were part of an experiment. In this experiement your brains were implanted into robot bodies (im being serious, dont laugh). Would you still love your significant other?
Besides, what is love anyway? Chemically speaking its just your nuerons firing in a certain sequence that in turns relases certain hormones, that in turn increases heart rate, ect. But now I'm getting into metaphysics, philoshopy, and semantics. Man hasnt been able to anwnser these questions in our entire history, the chances of us solving them now are slim to nill.
I would say friendships are somewhat similar. I don't need to see or touch someone to know they're my freind. Unless you stay in-character 100% of the time your in-game, your real personality is bound to come out. Personality is different than behavior, I should add. Behavior is how someone acts. Personality can be viewed as more stable traits that can influence someone's behaviors. Obviously personality is a somewhat abstract term in comparison to behavior. Behavior can be observed very easily, this is not the case with personality.
In this regard I am inclinded to agree with Omniscient's post regarding how we wear masks even when face-to-face. Think about some first dates youve had. Chances are you may have acted a bit different, a little more polite perhaps? I'm guessing most of our table manners improve immensely when were out on a first date. Now think about how we act in front of our family members and long term friends. Probably a lot more "relaxed" behavior pattern emerges. The advent of the internet just makes it easier for us to "hide" our behaviors. But I do not think it can totaly eleminate the person behind the keyboard/game pad.
Now Nights, I know you are an ackomplished role player but keep in mind those roles you are playing are cemented in your own, distinct, and stable personality. The same is true for your friend. Just because you and her dont know each other outside of the game dosnt mean that you aren't friends.
I don't really have much more to say (in reality work is about over for me, so I'm wrapping this up). I'm sorry this is so wordy.
First, to Mailorder, and on the nature of sexual relationships initiated in-game. Keep in mind there are two sides to every coin. Just because some relationships that start via the internet end badly dosnt mean they all do. I have heard horror stories as well as marvelous succes stories as well. These type of things have been going on since the introduction of the interent. MMO games can viewed as chatrooms in another form. And, when one thinks about it, chatrooms can be another form of a "singles bar". Its just another way for people to interact with one another.
People that use the internet for dating purposes aren't inherently evil. Chances are the horror stories you hear about would have happened anyway. If someone has intentions to cheat, they will find someone to cheat with. Adding the computer may make it a little easier perhaps, but not by that much. All it does is save a trip to a bar or two.
As for fear of "running into" people that have faulty realtionships in game, the not-so-simple answer is: avoid them. If your LS has a ton of people that are having disfunctional relationshps, chances are the LS itself is disfuntional. Find a new one that better fits with your views. I know this can be easier said than done, but finding a group to mesh with is part of the fun of MMO's.
Now, for the really interesting stuff, the subject of "masks" and whether or not one can truely get to know others in-game.
Nights, I can totaly agree with you on the subject of love and looking into someone's eyes, ect. But, what if you and your loved one were blind? I know this is a bit differnt that what you were talking about. But consider what would happen if your lover and you were part of an experiment. In this experiement your brains were implanted into robot bodies (im being serious, dont laugh). Would you still love your significant other?
Besides, what is love anyway? Chemically speaking its just your nuerons firing in a certain sequence that in turns relases certain hormones, that in turn increases heart rate, ect. But now I'm getting into metaphysics, philoshopy, and semantics. Man hasnt been able to anwnser these questions in our entire history, the chances of us solving them now are slim to nill.
I would say friendships are somewhat similar. I don't need to see or touch someone to know they're my freind. Unless you stay in-character 100% of the time your in-game, your real personality is bound to come out. Personality is different than behavior, I should add. Behavior is how someone acts. Personality can be viewed as more stable traits that can influence someone's behaviors. Obviously personality is a somewhat abstract term in comparison to behavior. Behavior can be observed very easily, this is not the case with personality.
In this regard I am inclinded to agree with Omniscient's post regarding how we wear masks even when face-to-face. Think about some first dates youve had. Chances are you may have acted a bit different, a little more polite perhaps? I'm guessing most of our table manners improve immensely when were out on a first date. Now think about how we act in front of our family members and long term friends. Probably a lot more "relaxed" behavior pattern emerges. The advent of the internet just makes it easier for us to "hide" our behaviors. But I do not think it can totaly eleminate the person behind the keyboard/game pad.
Now Nights, I know you are an ackomplished role player but keep in mind those roles you are playing are cemented in your own, distinct, and stable personality. The same is true for your friend. Just because you and her dont know each other outside of the game dosnt mean that you aren't friends.
I don't really have much more to say (in reality work is about over for me, so I'm wrapping this up). I'm sorry this is so wordy.
I agree wholeheartedly with Sigmund. And this is a mostly pointless post. ^^
First off, rate up for everyone.
It is rare that someone forces me to reexamine my beliefs..."but the unexamined life isn't worth living" (Socrates, Plato's Apology).
Friends in a different way...
I can see that. I can guess that those that I call my closest allies in the game are my friends...
I remember a story that I heard once.
***
A boy comes home, all bruised and battered. His father asked him who his son got in a fight with. He son replied "A friend." His father said "Ryo, what is a friend." Ryo replied a bit hesitantly "A friend is a friend." His father then said "a friend is exactly that. And your friends will be there for you even after your parents die. So treasure your friends."
***
I try not to blur the lines between vr and rw, because i been forced to see them as two seperate entities, though I have not always stuck to that thought pattern. What I am trying to say...is that in some respects I was wrong.
Thank you.
Now on the subject of love...
In response to Sigmund, I do not think that love is not forever. If you assume that the person you are with now will love you forever...then you might be in for a shock. The sad fact is that the person you are going to spend your life with can die, can fall out of love with you in time. And the idea of time raises one more question, if no one knows about the love, does it really exist? (I want to know your thoughts on this)
I'll stop now.^^
It is rare that someone forces me to reexamine my beliefs..."but the unexamined life isn't worth living" (Socrates, Plato's Apology).
Friends in a different way...
I can see that. I can guess that those that I call my closest allies in the game are my friends...
I remember a story that I heard once.
***
A boy comes home, all bruised and battered. His father asked him who his son got in a fight with. He son replied "A friend." His father said "Ryo, what is a friend." Ryo replied a bit hesitantly "A friend is a friend." His father then said "a friend is exactly that. And your friends will be there for you even after your parents die. So treasure your friends."
***
I try not to blur the lines between vr and rw, because i been forced to see them as two seperate entities, though I have not always stuck to that thought pattern. What I am trying to say...is that in some respects I was wrong.
Thank you.
Now on the subject of love...
In response to Sigmund, I do not think that love is not forever. If you assume that the person you are with now will love you forever...then you might be in for a shock. The sad fact is that the person you are going to spend your life with can die, can fall out of love with you in time. And the idea of time raises one more question, if no one knows about the love, does it really exist? (I want to know your thoughts on this)
I'll stop now.^^
Proud citizen of Miranda.
-Currently on Pochacco Server of Hello Kitty Online.
-Currently on Pochacco Server of Hello Kitty Online.
It doesn't make any difference, but my intended major is Sociology. I wanted to take Psychology, but classes were filled up. Doesn't help that everyone and their grandmothers want to take Psyche : (
I'm always curious about human behaviour and interaction, which is partly the reason of this thread.
---
I also believe that masks exist in-game, and in real-life. Sigmund mentioned remembering first dates. I remembered first "months", where the girl I met managed to seem flawless. Of course, after I gave her my attention enough for her to get bored, her true personality was revealed... and we both knew we were incompatible.
Sigmund, I agree that you can love someone for who they are, even you are blind, or even if you and your lover are robots. That's because no matter how the person "looks", their true personality is revealed.
But what I believe Nights is saying, is that in the online world, you cannot "see" a person's true personality. This leads to a question, which is: How long will a player in the virtual world wear their mask? I believe that it's much easier to hold onto it online. In real life, there's so many things that can leak your true personality. If you're face-to-face with the person, every single thing you do will be reflect some personality trait of yours. Online, you only have to worry about what you type, and your ticks (such as how long they take to reply to questions, /emotes).
I'm also assuming that Nights believes this, because he is an active roleplayer who probably understands masks in the virtual world better than any of us. He probably understands that a person can wear a mask for a very long time, thus rarely showing hints of their true personality.
---
In response to Nights's "friend" conversation, I believe there are different levels, or different types of friendship. In real life, you have close friends, best friends, acquaintances, co-workers, etc. I'm introducing a new category called "online friends". Among online friends, you may have some that feel like close friends or some you only talk to once every month. But they're still in the same category, because they're friends that have never seen you and probably never will. This group of friends will not understand you like people who have met you in person will. But they're still friends, because you can talk to them in good manners.
I feel that you might have been a bit harsh with your friend. I may be assuming, but I feel that she already has an innate grasp of "online friends". She was letting you know that she has added you to her list of online friends, because she likes to talk to you, even if both of you hardly know each other's true personalities.
---
My ultimate arguement is that masks exist in the real world and virtual world, but they are stronger and easier to wear online. The reason for this is because online, you avoid person-to-person contact. Even if you are blind or you are a robot with human emotion in real life, you are still in close contact which reveals many openings to your true nature whereas online, there are very little openings.
Of course, there are people online with no intention of wearing a mask. One may actually wear a mask in real life, but act completely genuine in the virtaul world.
But as my argument sugests, there are more who wear masks online since is it easier and more powerful. And because of the masks people wear, two things happen. One is that they create a false bond of security with each other, which eventually lead to a cheating relationship (assuming one or the other already has a faithful partner). The second is that they are both aware that online personalities cannot be judged, and that they must meet in real life in order to see if they will get along.
If they meet in person, the possibility of them creating real world masks are even greater, since they both understand that they want to impress one another with their true personalities... which means they will not act in their true natures.
---
Of course, there are good stories of people who have met online, decided to meet in real life, got married and never went unfaithful. I do find those stories to be more rare.
But on a note related to Sigmund's first paragraph, I believe that in good faith, you can become those stories. If you only hear of bad relationships online and begin to believe most online-relationships end negatively, then your future online-relationship will be negative since you've already placed your mindset on it.
---
EDIT: I took a long break while typing my post. I did not see Nights's post above, until after I posted. I can see that Nights is now sided with Sigmund's point of view, but I am still agreeing to an extended version of Night's old theory on love, and why it doesn't work if you can't "see" them.
Oh, and rate up to everyone! While typing this post, I managed to connect thoughts running through my mind for years into words. Couldn't have done it without you guys.
Edited, Wed Nov 3 19:47:35 2004 by Mailorder
I'm always curious about human behaviour and interaction, which is partly the reason of this thread.
---
I also believe that masks exist in-game, and in real-life. Sigmund mentioned remembering first dates. I remembered first "months", where the girl I met managed to seem flawless. Of course, after I gave her my attention enough for her to get bored, her true personality was revealed... and we both knew we were incompatible.
Sigmund, I agree that you can love someone for who they are, even you are blind, or even if you and your lover are robots. That's because no matter how the person "looks", their true personality is revealed.
But what I believe Nights is saying, is that in the online world, you cannot "see" a person's true personality. This leads to a question, which is: How long will a player in the virtual world wear their mask? I believe that it's much easier to hold onto it online. In real life, there's so many things that can leak your true personality. If you're face-to-face with the person, every single thing you do will be reflect some personality trait of yours. Online, you only have to worry about what you type, and your ticks (such as how long they take to reply to questions, /emotes).
I'm also assuming that Nights believes this, because he is an active roleplayer who probably understands masks in the virtual world better than any of us. He probably understands that a person can wear a mask for a very long time, thus rarely showing hints of their true personality.
---
In response to Nights's "friend" conversation, I believe there are different levels, or different types of friendship. In real life, you have close friends, best friends, acquaintances, co-workers, etc. I'm introducing a new category called "online friends". Among online friends, you may have some that feel like close friends or some you only talk to once every month. But they're still in the same category, because they're friends that have never seen you and probably never will. This group of friends will not understand you like people who have met you in person will. But they're still friends, because you can talk to them in good manners.
I feel that you might have been a bit harsh with your friend. I may be assuming, but I feel that she already has an innate grasp of "online friends". She was letting you know that she has added you to her list of online friends, because she likes to talk to you, even if both of you hardly know each other's true personalities.
---
My ultimate arguement is that masks exist in the real world and virtual world, but they are stronger and easier to wear online. The reason for this is because online, you avoid person-to-person contact. Even if you are blind or you are a robot with human emotion in real life, you are still in close contact which reveals many openings to your true nature whereas online, there are very little openings.
Of course, there are people online with no intention of wearing a mask. One may actually wear a mask in real life, but act completely genuine in the virtaul world.
But as my argument sugests, there are more who wear masks online since is it easier and more powerful. And because of the masks people wear, two things happen. One is that they create a false bond of security with each other, which eventually lead to a cheating relationship (assuming one or the other already has a faithful partner). The second is that they are both aware that online personalities cannot be judged, and that they must meet in real life in order to see if they will get along.
If they meet in person, the possibility of them creating real world masks are even greater, since they both understand that they want to impress one another with their true personalities... which means they will not act in their true natures.
---
Of course, there are good stories of people who have met online, decided to meet in real life, got married and never went unfaithful. I do find those stories to be more rare.
But on a note related to Sigmund's first paragraph, I believe that in good faith, you can become those stories. If you only hear of bad relationships online and begin to believe most online-relationships end negatively, then your future online-relationship will be negative since you've already placed your mindset on it.
---
EDIT: I took a long break while typing my post. I did not see Nights's post above, until after I posted. I can see that Nights is now sided with Sigmund's point of view, but I am still agreeing to an extended version of Night's old theory on love, and why it doesn't work if you can't "see" them.
Oh, and rate up to everyone! While typing this post, I managed to connect thoughts running through my mind for years into words. Couldn't have done it without you guys.
Edited, Wed Nov 3 19:47:35 2004 by Mailorder
...
I still think on my old theory of love to hold merit, but I also agree with Sigmund. Ahhhh, the beauty of doublethink!
Thank you Mailorder for this wonderful thread, I love it.
EDIT: Two conflicting ideas, that I believe in now...I wonder if this is how the Enlightened thinkers felt?
Edited, Wed Nov 3 20:07:16 2004 by Nightsintdreams
I still think on my old theory of love to hold merit, but I also agree with Sigmund. Ahhhh, the beauty of doublethink!
Thank you Mailorder for this wonderful thread, I love it.
EDIT: Two conflicting ideas, that I believe in now...I wonder if this is how the Enlightened thinkers felt?
Edited, Wed Nov 3 20:07:16 2004 by Nightsintdreams
Proud citizen of Miranda.
-Currently on Pochacco Server of Hello Kitty Online.
-Currently on Pochacco Server of Hello Kitty Online.
I can see that Sigmund is saying that if robots with human brains can love, so can two in an online relationship. I agree.
Where I differ is that an online relationship has greater risk of failure, (failure that can lead to a cheating relationship) because of the whole virtual world mask vs. real life mask arguement.
The thread was a quick thought... I'm actually amazed people caught interest.
Where I differ is that an online relationship has greater risk of failure, (failure that can lead to a cheating relationship) because of the whole virtual world mask vs. real life mask arguement.
The thread was a quick thought... I'm actually amazed people caught interest.
Something Similar happened to a lS mate
He logged into one of his many ls one day to find his in-game "wife" telling the LS the "she" is a He and HE is 13 years old........
i think i can leave it at that ><
He logged into one of his many ls one day to find his in-game "wife" telling the LS the "she" is a He and HE is 13 years old........
i think i can leave it at that ><
I think I may know who you're talking about. But that doesn't matter. That's just reinforcing the belief that it's easier to mask your true personality (in this case, your true gender) online than in the real world.
Hey all, sorry I've taken so long to reply again. Thursday is my "super busy day".
Nights I'm enthralled that you can listen to what I have to say with a rational mind, same with you Mail. Rate-ups galore! (everyone esle thanks for the tolerance)
Anyhoo Nights, it seems your view of love is a tad bit nihilistic. I'm sorry to see this is the case. But, let me try to sway your views a bit.
On the subject of love and it lasting forever: I myself have been in a relationship for over six years now. I can say, without a doubt in my mind, that I love this person and that she loves me. If the unthinkable should happen and one of us should die, I'm fairly certain the love would remain. It would remain as a memory, if nothing else.
You see love (in my opinion) has more than just the physical aspect to it. Physical being hugs, kisses, spending time with, ect. Love also has a cognitive compenent (how one thinks about the loved one, and the relationship). An affective component is also important, probably the most important. Affective is the part that determines how the person makes you feel, the emotional response he or she elicits.
Think about anyone in your life that had passed on. Are you getting a warm feeling? Are you smiling? Assuming your past the mourning stages, you should be. That right there is love taking effect. Those feelings are still there, they are just stored away.
The way the brain works can be viewed as a desktop cleaner. When your with your loved one a lot you have the emotions and thoughts about them very often (you have them and any thoughts, memories, and emotions relating to them on your desktop). But for some reason or another the loved one is not accesable any more (or at least not as much) the brain will store those feelings in a more remote part, to make room for something else.
That being said, sure there is the possibility for people to fall out of love. Things can happen, added stress, new jobs, kids, all can put strain on a relationship. But I would argue the stronger relationships will find a way to endure.
Now on to your more interesting (and somewhat unanswerable question) on whether or not love exists: I dunno if I can say much on this one, much smarter men (and women) have tried to solve this puzzle, with no definitive answer.
Aw, heck I'll give it a shot. As I said in my previous post love can be viewed strictly as chemical or biological. We mate so that we can pass on our genes. Evolution has made it pleasurable for humans to do so. This reinforces the behavior. Maybe the attached feeling of love is an evolutionary tactic to foster care between a man, woman, and eventualy a child.
Let me try to explain. The attached feelings of love make it more likely that a couple will stay together. This will make successful child rearing easier as well. Two parents can share the burden. (disclaimer: I'm not knocking you single parents out there, I'm mainly speaking about caveman days here). Ok thats my biological explination.
On the more "deep" meaning of love: If theres no such thing, why has mankind been writing and thinking about it for our entire history? The fact that its a very abstract idea makes it somewhat hard to grasp, but due to its high occurance, its almost certain to be a real phenomena.
Nights if its in your plans to get married and have children I'm fairly certain you'll change your views on love.
Now to Mail and the continuation of the "masks" discussion: Man I dont know if I can say much, you just about wrote a whole thesis about the matter. I do agree that its much easier to wear the masks online. But some people are so adept at hiding their true natures they do so even in real life, after lengthy periods of time.
Think about those stories of men that have more than one family. They are so good at hiding the truth that they can have more than one woman fall in love with them and decieve them all the while. Think about homosexuals that never come out to their families, or that postpone it for a long time.
What I'm getting at here is that its easier to let someone know your true self. It takes effort to lie. If both parties are willing to drop character, not lie about themsleves, ect. I think its an easy thing to get to know someone via the internet.
Basicaly Mail, I think we believe the same things, we just say them in different ways.
Sorry this is so long. I also apologise for that clumsy desktop anology.
Nights I'm enthralled that you can listen to what I have to say with a rational mind, same with you Mail. Rate-ups galore! (everyone esle thanks for the tolerance)
Anyhoo Nights, it seems your view of love is a tad bit nihilistic. I'm sorry to see this is the case. But, let me try to sway your views a bit.
On the subject of love and it lasting forever: I myself have been in a relationship for over six years now. I can say, without a doubt in my mind, that I love this person and that she loves me. If the unthinkable should happen and one of us should die, I'm fairly certain the love would remain. It would remain as a memory, if nothing else.
You see love (in my opinion) has more than just the physical aspect to it. Physical being hugs, kisses, spending time with, ect. Love also has a cognitive compenent (how one thinks about the loved one, and the relationship). An affective component is also important, probably the most important. Affective is the part that determines how the person makes you feel, the emotional response he or she elicits.
Think about anyone in your life that had passed on. Are you getting a warm feeling? Are you smiling? Assuming your past the mourning stages, you should be. That right there is love taking effect. Those feelings are still there, they are just stored away.
The way the brain works can be viewed as a desktop cleaner. When your with your loved one a lot you have the emotions and thoughts about them very often (you have them and any thoughts, memories, and emotions relating to them on your desktop). But for some reason or another the loved one is not accesable any more (or at least not as much) the brain will store those feelings in a more remote part, to make room for something else.
That being said, sure there is the possibility for people to fall out of love. Things can happen, added stress, new jobs, kids, all can put strain on a relationship. But I would argue the stronger relationships will find a way to endure.
Now on to your more interesting (and somewhat unanswerable question) on whether or not love exists: I dunno if I can say much on this one, much smarter men (and women) have tried to solve this puzzle, with no definitive answer.
Aw, heck I'll give it a shot. As I said in my previous post love can be viewed strictly as chemical or biological. We mate so that we can pass on our genes. Evolution has made it pleasurable for humans to do so. This reinforces the behavior. Maybe the attached feeling of love is an evolutionary tactic to foster care between a man, woman, and eventualy a child.
Let me try to explain. The attached feelings of love make it more likely that a couple will stay together. This will make successful child rearing easier as well. Two parents can share the burden. (disclaimer: I'm not knocking you single parents out there, I'm mainly speaking about caveman days here). Ok thats my biological explination.
On the more "deep" meaning of love: If theres no such thing, why has mankind been writing and thinking about it for our entire history? The fact that its a very abstract idea makes it somewhat hard to grasp, but due to its high occurance, its almost certain to be a real phenomena.
Nights if its in your plans to get married and have children I'm fairly certain you'll change your views on love.
Now to Mail and the continuation of the "masks" discussion: Man I dont know if I can say much, you just about wrote a whole thesis about the matter. I do agree that its much easier to wear the masks online. But some people are so adept at hiding their true natures they do so even in real life, after lengthy periods of time.
Think about those stories of men that have more than one family. They are so good at hiding the truth that they can have more than one woman fall in love with them and decieve them all the while. Think about homosexuals that never come out to their families, or that postpone it for a long time.
What I'm getting at here is that its easier to let someone know your true self. It takes effort to lie. If both parties are willing to drop character, not lie about themsleves, ect. I think its an easy thing to get to know someone via the internet.
Basicaly Mail, I think we believe the same things, we just say them in different ways.
Sorry this is so long. I also apologise for that clumsy desktop anology.
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