I had a convo with a gil selling company.
(Anything in parentesis is what i was thinking)
Customer Service 5: Hello, this is Fiona. How may I help you?
mattg2929@optonline.net: I want to know why are you running this site
mattg2929@optonline.net: you are ******** up the entire game for everyone
Customer Service 5: I am sorry, we do not have information on this,
mattg2929@optonline.net: we do not pay mounthly fees for loosers like you to ***** this up
mattg2929@optonline.net: really? why do i find that hard to belive?
mattg2929@optonline.net: well you going to respond?
Customer Service 5: I am sorry, please hold.
(If I had a dollar every time someone said that)
mattg2929@optonline.net: Im holding
~5 mins later~
mattg2929@optonline.net: listin, i'm not working tommorow, you can avoid me all you want, i demand a responce.
Customer Service 5: Thank you for your patience. I will be with you shortly.
mattg2929@optonline.net: ill wait all night if i have to
Customer Service 5: And i am sorry, i am not avoiding you but i am busy with customers.
(Yeah, I’m sure people have so many questions)
~5 more mins~
mattg2929@optonline.net: well?
Customer Service 5: Is there anything else I can help you with?
mattg2929@optonline.net: what do u mean is there anything else i can help you with?
mattg2929@optonline.net: you never responded to my first question
Customer Service 5: We have no idea about the first question, that's the management decision. Sorry.
(Yeah my white ***)
mattg2929@optonline.net: Did you even read the qustion, because it was an awful fast response
Customer Service 5: One moment please.
Please wait while I transfer the chat to 'Customer Service 2'
(HA HA can’t even hold me can you)
You are now chatting with 'Customer Service 2'
Customer Service 2: Hi, this is Becks; CS supervisor. How may I help you?
mattg2929@optonline.net: yeah
mattg2929@optonline.net: whats the deal with you people?
mattg2929@optonline.net: you ruin the games economy for what?
mattg2929@optonline.net: for a few lousy dollars? is this the only way you can afford to support your familys
Customer Service 2: Okay, first of all, i would like to tell you something before I answer your questions.
(Cant wait to see this)
~4 mins later~
Customer Service 2: We can't provide all the information of our company.
(Hmm took you long enough to type those few little words)
mattg2929@optonline.net: thats not what i want to know
Customer Service 2: Okay?
(Okay? Okay? Is that your defense?)
mattg2929@optonline.net: I want to know what you think gives you the right to ruin our games, which we pay mounthly to pay?
Customer Service 2: Did you place any order from our company?
(yes that’s why I want to shut you down b/c I hate buying gil so I place so many orders)
mattg2929@optonline.net: no i did not
Customer Service 2: Are you going to place order?
(Hmm did I show any signs of wanting to order)
mattg2929@optonline.net: No I am not, if anything i am going to make sure you are shut down.
Customer Service 2: Okay, you did not place any orders and not going to place. Why do you need that kind of information?
mattg2929@optonline.net: Because you are makeing our games virtual econmy worse then our real life econmy
(Hmm did I step over a boundary there..Nah)
Customer Service 2: I am really sorry about that. That's the fact.
(The fact, WTF is the fact?)
mattg2929@optonline.net: Ok, what is the fact?
Customer Service 2: the fact is, we can't provide this kind of information.
Customer Service 2: and the other fact is, Sorry about that.
(I didn’t know sorry about that was a fact.)
mattg2929@optonline.net: A consumer has 5 rights, and one is "The Consumer has the right to the information he/she desires
Customer Service 2: Are you one of our consumers?
mattg2929@optonline.net: I can’t provide this kind of information, how dose that sound?
(Cant wait to see the response to this)
Customer Service 2: Sorry, i think i should repeat once again. We can't provide all the information of our company.
mattg2929@optonline.net: Sorry, I think I should repeat once again. Thats not my question.
mattg2929@optonline.net: And your not really a "Company" you are more like a band of crooks who make money in the most asinine ways.
Customer Service 2: Would you please repeat the question again?
(How many times must I repeat the damn question!?!?)
Customer Service 2: okay, here's the answer:
(FINALY! Thank god!)
Customer Service 2: This is our management decision.
(Damn I thought I was getting somewhere)
Customer Service 2: Next please
mattg2929@optonline.net: One last question.
(This is going to be fun)
Customer Service 2: sure.
mattg2929@optonline.net: Do you know how much of a fool you are.
Customer Service 2: do you get the answer?
(That was random)
mattg2929@optonline.net: I have recorded this entire convorsation and i will get this out to every FFXI player so they know how yourso called "comapny" runs
Customer Service 2: ad?
(Huh!?)
Customer Service 2: Thanks for chatting with us.
mattg2929@optonline.net: ad >
mattg2929@optonline.net: wow
Customer Service 2: any questions?
(I think we covered that already)
mattg2929@optonline.net: yea
mattg2929@optonline.net: You guys suck
Customer Service 2: i dont think so.
(HA HA HA)
Customer Service 2: Sorry
Customer Service 2: anything else?
mattg2929@optonline.net: yea
mattg2929@optonline.net: You guys suck even more now.
(Now I’m just pushing it)
Customer Service 2: Again, I dont think so.
(Again, HA HA HA!)
Customer Service 2: anymore?
mattg2929@optonline.net: You guys are pethetic
mattg2929@optonline.net: "I dont think so" is that ur defence?
Customer Service 2: I dont think so.
mattg2929@optonline.net: I mean, honestly I have hear better defences in debates over cartoons.
mattg2929@optonline.net: I dont think so what?
(Now this is the part were I just have fun)
Customer Service 2: what do you think?
Customer Service 2: I am sorry, how many question do you have?
mattg2929@optonline.net: I think, rather I know u suck.
mattg2929@optonline.net: I had one question and it still was not answered.
Customer Service 2: I think i did.
mattg2929@optonline.net: Really?
mattg2929@optonline.net: I am going to re phrase what you said
(Wait till u see this)
mattg2929@optonline.net: "Our Company likes to ruin games that people enjoy because we are too poor to afford to make our own, so we do not want others to steal our glory."
(See that one coming?)
~5 minutes later~
Customer Service 2: sorry, i think you got a wrong meaning
mattg2929@optonline.net: ok
mattg2929@optonline.net: you better just stop, your not going to beat me, your company works for the wrong reasons, don’t even try to argue, I would end this now if I were you.
Customer Service 2: I don't think all players share the same opinion with you.
Customer Service 2: If they do, they won't be purchasing from us.
mattg2929@optonline.net: Yeah the honest players that enjoy the game and its policies do
mattg2929@optonline.net: the losers (Like you are) disagree with me because they suck as much as you.
Customer Service 2: Are you enjoy the game?
(Damn I thought my spelling and grammar are bad)
mattg2929@optonline.net: Nice english.
mattg2929@optonline.net: Can you rephrase that please.
Customer Service 2: Do you know how to spell "pathetic"?
Customer Service 2: and monthly?
Customer Service 2: and whom?
mattg2929@optonline.net: HA HA HA your a real pro
Customer Service 2: that's "you're"
mattg2929@optonline.net: You bring a great name to your "company"
Customer Service 2: Is there anything else I can help you with?
mattg2929@optonline.net: Oh can i please have your name
mattg2929@optonline.net: I'm sure your supervisor would love to see this.
mattg2929@optonline.net: and i also would like a number i can call to speak with someone rather then type so someone can hear my true emotion
Customer Service 2: I think if you scroll up, you'll have that question answered.
mattg2929@optonline.net: really? i dont recall you giveing me a name or number
(Wow this is getting really sad hear lol)
mattg2929@optonline.net: So why should i waste my time looking?
Customer Service 2: Some kind of people always waste their time, I dont know why.
Customer Service 2: Can you tell me?
mattg2929@optonline.net: Yes i can
Customer Service 2: Just like someone.
mattg2929@optonline.net: I'm sick of loser companys like you that try to make a liveing off a @#%^ing video game
mattg2929@optonline.net: your a real charechter i dont think sitcome writers can think of someone funnier then you.
Customer Service 2: Thanks for telling me, bye.
mattg2929@optonline.net: now
mattg2929@optonline.net: give me a contact number and your name
mattg2929@optonline.net: give me a contact number and your name
mattg2929@optonline.net: Give me your number now fool
mattg2929@optonline.net: well whatever im just going to contact someone else for the number.
Well I sent another chat request in for a number he is what happened.
Please wait for a site operator to respond.
You are now chatting with 'Customer Service 5'
Customer Service 5: Hello, this is Fiona. How may I help you?
mattg2929@optonline.net: Hi
mattg2929@optonline.net: I would just like a contact number for customore support please
Customer Service 5: Oh, you are back after beginning so unpolite.
Customer Service 5: I am sorry, we do not have one.
mattg2929@optonline.net: Oh thats too bad
Customer Service 5: Bad, i do not think so at all.
mattg2929@optonline.net: i was looking forward to informing your supervisor on what a bad customore support crew he/she has
Customer Service 5: Talking to someone which is not polite, i do not think this is bad.
Customer Service 5: But he did gave you an answer but you are thinking is not an answer at all so i dont think anyone can help you with that.
mattg2929@optonline.net: pretty sad you people cant give me the simple responce i ask
Customer Service 5: Is the our company secruity that we cannot give our our campany information.
mattg2929@optonline.net: im not asking that
Customer Service 5: Is seem simple but it is not that easy at all/
Customer Service 5: Yes, you just said that he cannot asnswer your questions and not giving you a simple responce.
Customer Service 5: Ok, i think we are done there right?
Customer Service 5: Is that anything that you want to know ?
mattg2929@optonline.net: I dont know
mattg2929@optonline.net: I want to contact who ever is in chare via email or phone
Customer Service 5: Ok, i have time, i will wait you.
(Lol)
Customer Service 5: No sorry, can you read???
Customer Service 5: I told you that we do not have a hotline.
mattg2929@optonline.net: then i would like an email address please
Customer Service 5: berks@BANNED
mattg2929@optonline.net: thank you
Customer Service 5: My pleasure, have a good day.
mattg2929@optonline.net: thats all i need
Customer Service 5: Have a nice day. Good bye.
Chat session has been terminated by the site operator.
(Saw that coming)
You are not currently in a chat session.
Well I’m going to do one more, this time I’m going to use a different email just for fun.
Please wait for a site operator to respond.
You are now chatting with 'Customer Service 5'
Customer Service 5: Hello, this is Fiona. How may I help you?
SpiritCatG@aol.com: Hello, i was just curious on how you deliver the gil.
Customer Service 5: Oh, you have changed your email lol
(Oh sh*t they caught me)
SpiritCatG@aol.com: Hmm, im impressed you people are smarter then i first thought
Customer Service 5: Really?
SpiritCatG@aol.com: yes
Customer Service 5: Oh, thanks.
SpiritCatG@aol.com: No problem
SpiritCatG@aol.com: most custamore support programs are retarded nerd who make 1.50 an hour he he
SpiritCatG@aol.com: good night
Customer Service 5: We are not lol
Customer Service 5: Have a nice day. Good bye.
(Well at least they weren’t rude when saying good bye.)
Well. I’m done for today.
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- gil seller convo!
gil seller convo!Follow
LOL!
These people can't even give a halfway decent conversation.
^^
*hug-hug*
These people can't even give a halfway decent conversation.
^^
*hug-hug*
You have to understand that the person taking the orders is sitting at a job making 9 bucks an hour just to take your order. They have no idea what they are doing, have never heard of the game Final Fantasy and they are just doing their job. The people you need to talk to in order to get a straight answer will never talk to you. Basically there is nothing you can do to stop them by calling. The only way to make a difference is to put them out of business. The only way that will happen is if people stop buying Gil. The people in the game that buy gil don't think they are doing anything wrong, so i really dont think this whole "Stop the gil sellers" is going to go anywhere. I hate to say it, because i cant stand them... but thats the way life goes.
the only way to shut them down is if Squenix hits every site and and sues the hell out of them for misrepresentation of the FFXI logo, and copyright infringement due to the fact that they are making money off of the copyright which squenix holds firmly in theior grasp, the fact is, they could do it if they wanted to, they dont, and all they care about is the fact that the companies are paying their monthly fees for playing the game. sort of reminds me of other mmorpg's that arent getting played anymore because of the rampant botting and "money" selling. can we say ULTIMA ONLINE???
Sir CorLeonisX: "Nah, SE will just declare it an exploit to fight him with jobs over 75 since it's not the "proper" way to kill it, and just ban us all instead."
Deadonarrival: "Dart as usual, your post is made of FAIL."
Deadonarrival: "Dart as usual, your post is made of FAIL."
My eyeballs hurt after reading that..
Haahaa looked like you had alot of fun tearing apart that poor guy.
Only thing is though im sure he has no clue on what you were talking about.
Haahaa looked like you had alot of fun tearing apart that poor guy.
Only thing is though im sure he has no clue on what you were talking about.
Keep in mind this is my personal opinion on this matter and you don't necessarily have to agree with it but I do hope you derive something from it. Now with that said
Arcedo,
Seriously, how old are you? Do you realize the person on the other end is just doing thier job? People like you make people like me want to hunt you down and do something horrible to you. You have to understand my point on this. I work in a contact center in real life as a matter of fact I am replying to your ridiculous post from my desk at this current location right now. And guess what else? I am in sales support. Do you know what that means? No, here's a little 411 for you.
We have a sales department much like Gil-Sellers have their websites to sell their merchandise. And we have customer support, again much like Gil-Selling websites have their livechat. Our purpose is to handle real concerns and to correct the real issues that arise when something goes wrong with an order or an installation. What this means to you in case you haven't figured it out WE HAVE TO SIT AT A DESK XX AMOUNT OF HOURS A DAY LISTENING TO PEOPLE ***** AND MOAN AT US OVER EVERYTHING UNDER THE SUN.
Do you think we actually care about any miscellaneous crap or grief you have with our companies?
No each respective company has a department to deal with those types of situation. Each country has laws that govern how businesses run. Unlike the US where we are required by law to give customers contact information to our highest executives, other countries such as China, or Japan do not have laws that require thier companies to give out any information period. So in essence they were following their company's guidelines and do not have to release any information they don't want to release to you. Did that ever occur to you?
Next time you pull a prank like this just be lucky it is only a live chat session over the internet that does not require you to enter in your personal information. Unlike China and Japan for example, here in the US anytime you call customer care/support for anything we know who you are and where you live. Think about that next time you are harrassing someone who works in customer care/support. We are just trying to do our best to help out the customers who need assistance and we get enough grief from our legitimate customers in general and don't need the extra BS.
So please forgive me for going off on you but hopefully you will be more considerate of people who are just doing their jobs. And remember no matter how much you try to get to us we still have to end our calls/chat sessions with a "Thank you" or a "Have a good day." Do you think it's easy especially when you have a douchebag on the other end?
Have a nice day!
~Zander
/rant
on a side note there are multiple grammatical errors in my reply due to assisting a customer with their PC over the phone atm.
Arcedo,
Seriously, how old are you? Do you realize the person on the other end is just doing thier job? People like you make people like me want to hunt you down and do something horrible to you. You have to understand my point on this. I work in a contact center in real life as a matter of fact I am replying to your ridiculous post from my desk at this current location right now. And guess what else? I am in sales support. Do you know what that means? No, here's a little 411 for you.
We have a sales department much like Gil-Sellers have their websites to sell their merchandise. And we have customer support, again much like Gil-Selling websites have their livechat. Our purpose is to handle real concerns and to correct the real issues that arise when something goes wrong with an order or an installation. What this means to you in case you haven't figured it out WE HAVE TO SIT AT A DESK XX AMOUNT OF HOURS A DAY LISTENING TO PEOPLE ***** AND MOAN AT US OVER EVERYTHING UNDER THE SUN.
Do you think we actually care about any miscellaneous crap or grief you have with our companies?
No each respective company has a department to deal with those types of situation. Each country has laws that govern how businesses run. Unlike the US where we are required by law to give customers contact information to our highest executives, other countries such as China, or Japan do not have laws that require thier companies to give out any information period. So in essence they were following their company's guidelines and do not have to release any information they don't want to release to you. Did that ever occur to you?
Next time you pull a prank like this just be lucky it is only a live chat session over the internet that does not require you to enter in your personal information. Unlike China and Japan for example, here in the US anytime you call customer care/support for anything we know who you are and where you live. Think about that next time you are harrassing someone who works in customer care/support. We are just trying to do our best to help out the customers who need assistance and we get enough grief from our legitimate customers in general and don't need the extra BS.
So please forgive me for going off on you but hopefully you will be more considerate of people who are just doing their jobs. And remember no matter how much you try to get to us we still have to end our calls/chat sessions with a "Thank you" or a "Have a good day." Do you think it's easy especially when you have a douchebag on the other end?
Have a nice day!
~Zander
/rant
on a side note there are multiple grammatical errors in my reply due to assisting a customer with their PC over the phone atm.
3 posts
I have to say, good post Zandertheredmage. 100% agreed.
I'm not encouraging people to buy gil, but there's really no point harressing the customer service. Its a waste of time for both parties. Well, you could say you're just wasting your own time while the staffs just sit there reading you type BS and getting paid for it.
And to be honest, I doubt that gil seller company is a big one. Maybe they just work at home or in a small office. And for such a small company, it doesn't matter if you can get to the supervisor or boss. If I'm the boss, I could careless that my employees are ignoring the people who are trying to give the company trouble. In fact, I'd just tell them to let the trouble-makers hold as long as they want. You'll know its a waste of time to deal with such people if you have worked under similar positions.
I'm not encouraging people to buy gil, but there's really no point harressing the customer service. Its a waste of time for both parties. Well, you could say you're just wasting your own time while the staffs just sit there reading you type BS and getting paid for it.
And to be honest, I doubt that gil seller company is a big one. Maybe they just work at home or in a small office. And for such a small company, it doesn't matter if you can get to the supervisor or boss. If I'm the boss, I could careless that my employees are ignoring the people who are trying to give the company trouble. In fact, I'd just tell them to let the trouble-makers hold as long as they want. You'll know its a waste of time to deal with such people if you have worked under similar positions.
Jachyra
Server: Bismarck
Class: Monk
Server: Bismarck
Class: Monk
yea i agree with you,Zandertheredmage, too. I had a lengthy post mostly to the same point then i hit ESC by mistake and didnt feel like retyping it.
If you are going to harass someone about it then harass the people IN-GAME that are actually camping the NM's etc.
Edited, Mon Nov 1 15:24:36 2004 by TseTsuo
If you are going to harass someone about it then harass the people IN-GAME that are actually camping the NM's etc.
Edited, Mon Nov 1 15:24:36 2004 by TseTsuo
Thanks hopefully the OP reads this and is a little more considerate the next time he/she does this. Maybe just maybe everyone else out there harassing the Customer Support for Gil-Selling websites will realize all they are doing is wasting their time harassing the operator.
Like Tsetsuo stated
and even Jachy
For all you know the only real accomplishment you made here was getting the operator who answered your call for assistance to pretend that he/she was the supervisor....
Like Tsetsuo stated
Quote:
If you are going to harass someone about it then harass the people IN-GAME that are actually camping the NM's etc.
and even Jachy
Quote:
And to be honest, I doubt that gil seller company is a big one. Maybe they just work at home or in a small office. And for such a small company, it doesn't matter if you can get to the supervisor or boss. If I'm the boss, I could careless that my employees are ignoring the people who are trying to give the company trouble. In fact, I'd just tell them to let the trouble-makers hold as long as they want. You'll know its a waste of time to deal with such people if you have worked under similar positions.
For all you know the only real accomplishment you made here was getting the operator who answered your call for assistance to pretend that he/she was the supervisor....
Well said Zander /cheer. I agree with you all. Those poor people are just trying to do their job and do not need anyone harassing them as they do so.
In my opinion, it is your duty to understand exactly what sort of activities in which your employer is engaged.
As such I would argue that if your employer makes you it's first line of defense against those who hold issue with their activities (by, for example, only providing ways to contact the company on any issue which are routed through you and your department), then you are answerable. And if you do not have the answers, you find them out or direct me to someone who can provide them.
Zander I will have no pity at all for these *poor* customer service reps sitting there XXX hours every day, etc.
It seems clear to me 1) that Arcedo started out trying to hold them accountable (and if his attempts to do such were crude, well then, not everyone can write a nice pretty letter like you), and 2) that his reaction to being given the run around was fairly understandable. I would further argue that it only became a *prank* at this point, when he became frustrated. At the point where, being given nothing but lip-service and a wild goose chase, he proceeded to mock them.
I disagree with Zander's post. "Just doing your job" is no defense at all for any activity which infringes upon the rights of others. If you work for a company which engages in activities with which I take issue, I will lay it on you until you satisfy my needs or direct me to someone who can.
You didn't know what the company with whom you are employed was engaged in such activites? Also no defense. Disinterest, apathy, and laziness do not protect you.
Is this a small thing, in the great scheme of things? Sure. We're talking about companies ******** with our enjoyment of a video-game.
But sometimes the small things need doing too.
Those poor people, those poor people. My GOD, does no one take responsibility for their choices anymore?
My opinion. And my reaction to the tone in which the majority of the posts in this thread were made.
Feel free to rate me down or flame me.
As such I would argue that if your employer makes you it's first line of defense against those who hold issue with their activities (by, for example, only providing ways to contact the company on any issue which are routed through you and your department), then you are answerable. And if you do not have the answers, you find them out or direct me to someone who can provide them.
Zander I will have no pity at all for these *poor* customer service reps sitting there XXX hours every day, etc.
It seems clear to me 1) that Arcedo started out trying to hold them accountable (and if his attempts to do such were crude, well then, not everyone can write a nice pretty letter like you), and 2) that his reaction to being given the run around was fairly understandable. I would further argue that it only became a *prank* at this point, when he became frustrated. At the point where, being given nothing but lip-service and a wild goose chase, he proceeded to mock them.
I disagree with Zander's post. "Just doing your job" is no defense at all for any activity which infringes upon the rights of others. If you work for a company which engages in activities with which I take issue, I will lay it on you until you satisfy my needs or direct me to someone who can.
You didn't know what the company with whom you are employed was engaged in such activites? Also no defense. Disinterest, apathy, and laziness do not protect you.
Is this a small thing, in the great scheme of things? Sure. We're talking about companies ******** with our enjoyment of a video-game.
But sometimes the small things need doing too.
Those poor people, those poor people. My GOD, does no one take responsibility for their choices anymore?
My opinion. And my reaction to the tone in which the majority of the posts in this thread were made.
Feel free to rate me down or flame me.
I don't even wanna think how much this is gonna get me rated down, but someone I know posted this on another FF website. They are a member of the Bismarck community as well, and I happen to agree with them.
I happen to agree. I fail to see how someone camping Stroper Chyme for gil is any different from someone camping Stroper Chyme for gil (yes, I didn't make a mistake saying that). I am aware that some gil-farmers are MPKing people, but I've had a JP PT do that to my party before. Are they gil-sellers? No, they're just rude, and I personally think harassing anyone for trying to make a living rude. Would you like it if someone came to your job and wasted hours of your time pissing and moaning?
My gameplay has been affected in no way at all by gil-farmers and those that buy gil, and this has been proposed many times, but would you return your AH sales income if you knew it was bought with purchased gil? Didn't think so, so in fact people buying gil are only helping you. So in my opinion, keep the gil-buyers coming, they're only buying all the crap I farmed and synthed. And if you're gonna reply to this please do it in a thought out and composed manner.
Quote:
Having looked at the opinion of the majority, I am honestly saddened at the way people think. Perhaps we live in a world where we are used to sticking our nose in anything we are dissatisfied with or feel any slightest bit of jealousy towards. I am going to provide a very clear and through analysis of gilfarmers, hoping I can encourage people to think logically and rationally. Be it known that I am in no way supporting gilfarming and my attitude towards them is, as with most controversies in Vanafdiel, apathetic. Obviously, gilfarmers are not interested in "playing" FFXI but how they decided to spend their time is their prerogative. As long as they are not interfering my FFXI experience (and of those whom I know) I really couldnft care less. I do wonder how many of you have actually been affect by the advent of gilfarmers. Unless you are a hardcore camper like Estonia, I doubt you have been.
One of the most common complaints I hear is that gilfarmers are responsible for the increases in price throughout the Auction House. That is perhaps the most absurd things I have ever heard and I am simply shocked that people can be so misguided (Maybe I am lying, I am probably not shocked actually, lol). I really can't see what kind of reasoning would enable people to arrive that that deduction. Soc gilfarmers are camping Stroper Chyme for Archer Rings constantly, giving them a monopoly on the item, which in turn allows them to increases the price of Archer Rings. Although this really sounds like a good argument, is actually flawed. First of all, Archer Rings (Sniper Rings) are not exactly necessities. Sure they might be really good but if you canft afford them, you can still move on with life in Vanafdiel. Therefore, many, including myself, are simply uninterested in paying such a heavy price for them. The only ones that can really buy them are those that are willing to spend 650k. Another way to look at it is: they can only increase it to as high as people are willing to pay for them. It is just so unfortunate for you that someone is willing to pay 650k. I have to applaud Square-Enix for coming up with the Auction House system because it emulates the free market of the real world fairly closely.
The real reason as to why Archer Rings are so expensive is that people, mostly rich Japanese Rangers, are willing to spend ridiculous amounts of money on equipment for the Chain of Promathia missions which are capped at level 30. Archer Rings, which used to be never in demand, are suddenly experiencing a surge in demand. Now that Archer Rings are being used, the supply of materials needed to craft Sniper Rings is being chocked and when supply goes down, price goes up.
If you think about it, gilfarmers have a negligible effect on the economy. Actually, to be more precise, in theory, the activities of gilfarmers negligibly reduce the prices of items. If you were to consider the "production" of Bismarck, which is how much "money" (items and gil combined) is generated over a given duration, you will see that gilfarmers have a negligible effect on that value. In other words, what the gilfarmers are effectively doing is shifting the concentration of wealth. Take Stroper Chyme for instance. In the past, before the advent of gilfarmers, those that were camping Stroper Chyme became rather rich by selling Archer Rings. I can personally attest this fact. Now that gilfarmers have shown up, those people can no longer make money. However, those that buy the gil from the gilfarmers are the new ones that are getting rich. If you do all the bookkeeping, you will see that people are in fact not paying for gil but for the time the gilfarmers spend on camping Stroper Chyme. Furthermore, you would also notice that the number of Archer Rings on AH remains more or less unchanged due to gilfarmers. In fact, you can make an argument that since gilfarmers are more dedicated than your average Stroper-campers, there is negligibly more Archer Rings on AH which negligibly decreases price (In reality, the price doesnft change because Archer Ring prices are quantized into increments of 1000+ and the negligible decrease is not enough to shift the price into the next bracket). Gilfarmers cannot affect the price on AH either. If anyone has every tried to overprice an item with constant and moderate supply like Sniper Rings before Chain of Promathia, you would notice that your item usually will not sell. This is because people are simply unwilling to pay the extra. This is different from something like Fire Crystal where the supply literally changes throughout the day creating periods of glut and surplus.
PS: Edited for grammar and clarity.
One of the most common complaints I hear is that gilfarmers are responsible for the increases in price throughout the Auction House. That is perhaps the most absurd things I have ever heard and I am simply shocked that people can be so misguided (Maybe I am lying, I am probably not shocked actually, lol). I really can't see what kind of reasoning would enable people to arrive that that deduction. Soc gilfarmers are camping Stroper Chyme for Archer Rings constantly, giving them a monopoly on the item, which in turn allows them to increases the price of Archer Rings. Although this really sounds like a good argument, is actually flawed. First of all, Archer Rings (Sniper Rings) are not exactly necessities. Sure they might be really good but if you canft afford them, you can still move on with life in Vanafdiel. Therefore, many, including myself, are simply uninterested in paying such a heavy price for them. The only ones that can really buy them are those that are willing to spend 650k. Another way to look at it is: they can only increase it to as high as people are willing to pay for them. It is just so unfortunate for you that someone is willing to pay 650k. I have to applaud Square-Enix for coming up with the Auction House system because it emulates the free market of the real world fairly closely.
The real reason as to why Archer Rings are so expensive is that people, mostly rich Japanese Rangers, are willing to spend ridiculous amounts of money on equipment for the Chain of Promathia missions which are capped at level 30. Archer Rings, which used to be never in demand, are suddenly experiencing a surge in demand. Now that Archer Rings are being used, the supply of materials needed to craft Sniper Rings is being chocked and when supply goes down, price goes up.
If you think about it, gilfarmers have a negligible effect on the economy. Actually, to be more precise, in theory, the activities of gilfarmers negligibly reduce the prices of items. If you were to consider the "production" of Bismarck, which is how much "money" (items and gil combined) is generated over a given duration, you will see that gilfarmers have a negligible effect on that value. In other words, what the gilfarmers are effectively doing is shifting the concentration of wealth. Take Stroper Chyme for instance. In the past, before the advent of gilfarmers, those that were camping Stroper Chyme became rather rich by selling Archer Rings. I can personally attest this fact. Now that gilfarmers have shown up, those people can no longer make money. However, those that buy the gil from the gilfarmers are the new ones that are getting rich. If you do all the bookkeeping, you will see that people are in fact not paying for gil but for the time the gilfarmers spend on camping Stroper Chyme. Furthermore, you would also notice that the number of Archer Rings on AH remains more or less unchanged due to gilfarmers. In fact, you can make an argument that since gilfarmers are more dedicated than your average Stroper-campers, there is negligibly more Archer Rings on AH which negligibly decreases price (In reality, the price doesnft change because Archer Ring prices are quantized into increments of 1000+ and the negligible decrease is not enough to shift the price into the next bracket). Gilfarmers cannot affect the price on AH either. If anyone has every tried to overprice an item with constant and moderate supply like Sniper Rings before Chain of Promathia, you would notice that your item usually will not sell. This is because people are simply unwilling to pay the extra. This is different from something like Fire Crystal where the supply literally changes throughout the day creating periods of glut and surplus.
PS: Edited for grammar and clarity.
I happen to agree. I fail to see how someone camping Stroper Chyme for gil is any different from someone camping Stroper Chyme for gil (yes, I didn't make a mistake saying that). I am aware that some gil-farmers are MPKing people, but I've had a JP PT do that to my party before. Are they gil-sellers? No, they're just rude, and I personally think harassing anyone for trying to make a living rude. Would you like it if someone came to your job and wasted hours of your time pissing and moaning?
My gameplay has been affected in no way at all by gil-farmers and those that buy gil, and this has been proposed many times, but would you return your AH sales income if you knew it was bought with purchased gil? Didn't think so, so in fact people buying gil are only helping you. So in my opinion, keep the gil-buyers coming, they're only buying all the crap I farmed and synthed. And if you're gonna reply to this please do it in a thought out and composed manner.
zander, i think you are full of crap. i dont care about some guy at the other end of the line. if i took a job as a portable crapper house cleaner, i wouldnt cry about haveing to clean crap all day. you took the job. now live with it or get another one
***** those gil farmers. ***** those retards who buy gil. ***** those people he chatted with. and ***** you for takeing up for them. if they wanna take that job and help the gil farmers, then they can be harrassed cause they deserve it.
im sick of you bleeding hearts takeing up for them cause "they are just trying to feed thier families".
***** those gil farmers. ***** those retards who buy gil. ***** those people he chatted with. and ***** you for takeing up for them. if they wanna take that job and help the gil farmers, then they can be harrassed cause they deserve it.
im sick of you bleeding hearts takeing up for them cause "they are just trying to feed thier families".
Quote:
Soc gilfarmers are camping Stroper Chyme for Archer Rings constantly, giving them a monopoly on the item, which in turn allows them to increases the price of Archer Rings. Although this really sounds like a good argument, is actually flawed. First of all, Archer Rings (Sniper Rings) are not exactly necessities. Sure they might be really good but if you canft afford them, you can still move on with life in Vanafdiel. Therefore, many, including myself, are simply uninterested in paying such a heavy price for them. The only ones that can really buy them are those that are willing to spend 650k. Another way to look at it is: they can only increase it to as high as people are willing to pay for them. It is just so unfortunate for you that someone is willing to pay 650k. I have to applaud Square-Enix for coming up with the Auction House system because it emulates the free market of the real world fairly closely.
Does it matter whether or not Archer Rings are "not exactly necessities"? Not particularly - necessity versus luxury, in an economic sense, just gives information about the shape of the demand curve, and has more to do with the income of the consumers anyway.
Economically speaking again, the gilfarmers do have a monopoly - there is a barrier to entry, and so the gilfarmers are able to charge more - this creates a greater producer surplus (more money for the gilfarmers), reduces the consumer surprlus (less money for honest players), and creates a deadweight loss to society (i.e. the economy would be better if the price was set differently). Econ 1. Another way to look at it is: With competition in camping the Chyme, and multiple people able to sell Archer Rings, prices would go down, consumers would be happier, and honest players would be getting the money.
Quote:
The real reason as to why Archer Rings are so expensive is that people, mostly rich Japanese Rangers, are willing to spend ridiculous amounts of money on equipment for the Chain of Promathia missions which are capped at level 30. Archer Rings, which used to be never in demand, are suddenly experiencing a surge in demand. Now that Archer Rings are being used, the supply of materials needed to craft Sniper Rings is being chocked and when supply goes down, price goes up.
.... could just be me, but Archer Rings have always been pretty damned expensive. Gilfarmers drove them up before Promathia, this just drives the price up further. Same arguments about monopoly, surplus, and deadweight loss still apply. On another note, I also saw the race card thrown down there. *sigh*.
Quote:
I fail to see how someone camping Stroper Chyme for gil is any different from someone camping Stroper Chyme for gil (yes, I didn't make a mistake saying that).
Someone camping S.C. for gil with a monopoly on it is different from someone camping S.C. for gil in a competitive market.
Quote:
Economically speaking again, the gilfarmers do have a monopoly - there is a barrier to entry, and so the gilfarmers are able to charge more - this creates a greater producer surplus (more money for the gilfarmers), reduces the consumer surprlus (less money for honest players), and creates a deadweight loss to society (i.e. the economy would be better if the price was set differently). Econ 1. Another way to look at it is: With competition in camping the Chyme, and multiple people able to sell Archer Rings, prices would go down, consumers would be happier, and honest players would be getting the money.
But the gil-farmers DON'T have a barrier to entry. Anyone in Vana'diel is free to go to Ordelle's Caves and camp Stroper Chyme. The gil-sellers may have a team of 5 people camping or whatever, but who's to say you and your friends couldn't do the same thing?
Quote:
.... could just be me, but Archer Rings have always been pretty damned expensive. Gilfarmers drove them up before Promathia, this just drives the price up further. Same arguments about monopoly, surplus, and deadweight loss still apply. On another note, I also saw the race card thrown down there. *sigh*.
Well if gil-farmers could drive them up, so could anyone. I remember when Garrison items first came out I intentionally raised the price on hose because mine was the only one in stock, so I knew it would sell. If you can get more for an item, why wouldn't you? But because it's those witches of Vana'diel the gil-sellers doing it, it suddenly becomes some gaming sin to get more for a demand.
Quote:
Someone camping S.C. for gil with a monopoly on it is different from someone camping S.C. for gil in a competitive market.
Again, no one is stopping you and your entire LS from camping Stroper Chyme, or any other NM for that matter. Just because a certain group of people are intelligent about making currency doesn't mean they're some kind of plague upon virtual society.
Velfire, I appreciate your response, and if you rated me down, understandable. I rated you up for the thought out response. But I know you didn't do it all, and you're the only one to reply...lame. I swear to god Gil-Sellers have become the virtual Salem Witches. Everyone thinks they're doing all these horrible things to society, but no one has any real evidence for it.
And no one has responded to the "If you knew your AH sales were bought with purchased gil, would you send the gil back?" question. Interesting.
Edited, Tue Nov 2 10:20:31 2004 by PhoebyTaru
Gameslaver perhaps you didn't fully understand my point
I don't give two ***** about Gil-Farming in general. People do it wether or not they sell it online my problem is with people who think they can accomplish something irrationally rather than going about it the mature way. I am not complaining about the job I have nor am I asking for pity for people who work in the same field. Please re-read my reply FULLY again, maybe then you'll get the picture.
Nataraja
You and I both know that in real life customer service representatives for the most part are there to apologize for their company and to clean up their messes. If you do have a real job then I am saddened by the fact that you cannot relate this type of situation to your own.
It's like me calling up to your place of employment and harassing you or one of your fellow co-workers to death because of the fact your company logo has a color in it that offends me.
One of the fringe benefits of living in this country is you are entitled to continue up a ladder of contacts when person X cannot provide you with adequate information or assistance. It's the one thing that the federal government (whom I hate so much) did right by mandating laws and such.
Yet again my point was that all you guys are accomplishing by doing stuff like what the OP did is wasting time if you really want to do something about Gil-Farming take the mature approach and write a letter there are several avenues available to remedy these situations. Harassing someone in customer support is not going to get it done.
This post did not give the intention that Arcedo was trying to hold the Gil-Selling company in question acountable. IMO it sounded like someone being a total *** to someone who literally did nothing to them.
No offense or anything but out of curiosity are you a student or a member of the workforce? Most companies are so big it's impossible for every employee to know everything the company is doing and what direction it is going in. That is like waking up knowing that your parents told you you were all going to do something together that day and then they split and leave you behind. There is never 100% communication between any given individual or company for that matter.
btw If I could rate you up Nataraja I would for disagreeing with me and then posting why. Unlike the Karma trolls who should be brutally murdered and rate people down for no reason, you provided a valid argument to prove your point. Thank you.
Edited, Tue Nov 2 12:37:14 2004 by zandertheredmage
Quote:
zander, i think you are full of crap. i dont care about some guy at the other end of the line. if i took a job as a portable crapper house cleaner, i wouldnt cry about haveing to clean crap all day. you took the job. now live with it or get another one
***** those gil farmers. ***** those retards who buy gil. ***** those people he chatted with. and ***** you for takeing up for them. if they wanna take that job and help the gil farmers, then they can be harrassed cause they deserve it.
im sick of you bleeding hearts takeing up for them cause "they are just trying to feed thier families".
***** those gil farmers. ***** those retards who buy gil. ***** those people he chatted with. and ***** you for takeing up for them. if they wanna take that job and help the gil farmers, then they can be harrassed cause they deserve it.
im sick of you bleeding hearts takeing up for them cause "they are just trying to feed thier families".
I don't give two ***** about Gil-Farming in general. People do it wether or not they sell it online my problem is with people who think they can accomplish something irrationally rather than going about it the mature way. I am not complaining about the job I have nor am I asking for pity for people who work in the same field. Please re-read my reply FULLY again, maybe then you'll get the picture.
Nataraja
Quote:
In my opinion, it is your duty to understand exactly what sort of activities in which your employer is engaged.
As such I would argue that if your employer makes you it's first line of defense against those who hold issue with their activities (by, for example, only providing ways to contact the company on any issue which are routed through you and your department), then you are answerable. And if you do not have the answers, you find them out or direct me to someone who can provide them.
As such I would argue that if your employer makes you it's first line of defense against those who hold issue with their activities (by, for example, only providing ways to contact the company on any issue which are routed through you and your department), then you are answerable. And if you do not have the answers, you find them out or direct me to someone who can provide them.
You and I both know that in real life customer service representatives for the most part are there to apologize for their company and to clean up their messes. If you do have a real job then I am saddened by the fact that you cannot relate this type of situation to your own.
It's like me calling up to your place of employment and harassing you or one of your fellow co-workers to death because of the fact your company logo has a color in it that offends me.
One of the fringe benefits of living in this country is you are entitled to continue up a ladder of contacts when person X cannot provide you with adequate information or assistance. It's the one thing that the federal government (whom I hate so much) did right by mandating laws and such.
Quote:
It seems clear to me 1) that Arcedo started out trying to hold them accountable (and if his attempts to do such were crude, well then, not everyone can write a nice pretty letter like you), and 2) that his reaction to being given the run around was fairly understandable. I would further argue that it only became a *prank* at this point, when he became frustrated. At the point where, being given nothing but lip-service and a wild goose chase, he proceeded to mock them.
Yet again my point was that all you guys are accomplishing by doing stuff like what the OP did is wasting time if you really want to do something about Gil-Farming take the mature approach and write a letter there are several avenues available to remedy these situations. Harassing someone in customer support is not going to get it done.
This post did not give the intention that Arcedo was trying to hold the Gil-Selling company in question acountable. IMO it sounded like someone being a total *** to someone who literally did nothing to them.
Quote:
You didn't know what the company with whom you are employed was engaged in such activites? Also no defense. Disinterest, apathy, and laziness do not protect you.
No offense or anything but out of curiosity are you a student or a member of the workforce? Most companies are so big it's impossible for every employee to know everything the company is doing and what direction it is going in. That is like waking up knowing that your parents told you you were all going to do something together that day and then they split and leave you behind. There is never 100% communication between any given individual or company for that matter.
btw If I could rate you up Nataraja I would for disagreeing with me and then posting why. Unlike the Karma trolls who should be brutally murdered and rate people down for no reason, you provided a valid argument to prove your point. Thank you.
Edited, Tue Nov 2 12:37:14 2004 by zandertheredmage
Not much someone can do about this subject. I mean S.E. is loosing nothing from having these people farm gil all day off of camping NM's. and then selling that gil for real dollar currency.
Naturally..i camp NM's or farm period to attempt to make gil for my level 50. JSE, Staves..after that it's all AF and other quested gear.
So naturally it gets to me a bit when I go out to make some gil, and you see four or five gil farmers Apples, Toms, Jerrys, Zooe's....becuase I can't really get a group of 6 out there to come and help me camp a NM...so I get kind of out numbered.
But..then I just realize this is just how the game is played, someone found a way to get money from it, and in return they aren't hurting S.E. majority of the people who play this game don't care much about gil farmers..and they are just playing the game...can't get real upset at them for that.
It's just another thing that we're going to have to deal with, they have tried to take me out. I pulled an ooze before them and they tried to train quads on me..but later it back fired ..i got pictures hehe. But..not much we can do..except find other ways of making gil than hutning heavily camped NM's.
I do appologize for the deaths that have came from the Gil Farmers...and hope that it doesn't become a severe problem.
Naturally..i camp NM's or farm period to attempt to make gil for my level 50. JSE, Staves..after that it's all AF and other quested gear.
So naturally it gets to me a bit when I go out to make some gil, and you see four or five gil farmers Apples, Toms, Jerrys, Zooe's....becuase I can't really get a group of 6 out there to come and help me camp a NM...so I get kind of out numbered.
But..then I just realize this is just how the game is played, someone found a way to get money from it, and in return they aren't hurting S.E. majority of the people who play this game don't care much about gil farmers..and they are just playing the game...can't get real upset at them for that.
It's just another thing that we're going to have to deal with, they have tried to take me out. I pulled an ooze before them and they tried to train quads on me..but later it back fired ..i got pictures hehe. But..not much we can do..except find other ways of making gil than hutning heavily camped NM's.
I do appologize for the deaths that have came from the Gil Farmers...and hope that it doesn't become a severe problem.
PhoebyTaru wrote:
But the gil-farmers DON'T have a barrier to entry. Anyone in Vana'diel is free to go to Ordelle's Caves and camp Stroper Chyme. The gil-sellers may have a team of 5 people camping or whatever, but who's to say you and your friends couldn't do the same thing?
I still think they do have a barrier to entry - by all accounts, they are there 24/7, and I've heard multiple instances of SC popping claimed. Whether this has to do with latency, the speed of my computer, or whatever, it certainly creates a barrier to entry for me and many other normal players. Fair or not, I can't see any way that camping SC would be reasonable for me, given the current situation. In a free-market economy, thats basically a barrier to entry.
PhoebyTaru wrote:
Well if gil-farmers could drive them up, so could anyone. I remember when Garrison items first came out I intentionally raised the price on hose because mine was the only one in stock, so I knew it would sell. If you can get more for an item, why wouldn't you? But because it's those witches of Vana'diel the gil-sellers doing it, it suddenly becomes some gaming sin to get more for a demand.
So could anyone who is able to camp SC 24/7 and make it spawn claimed. Did you sell all the garrison hose for a long time? Was the market at a long term equilibrium? Yes, of course you raise the price for something because you can - at least, thats what it looks like to you. From an economics perspective, as a seller, you're a price taker, so you take the best price you can get. You didn't raise the price, in this case, demand raised the price because the market hadn't yet reached equilibrium.
The point is, from what I see, the gilfarmers have an unfair monopoly. Its not that they're getting more money for it (they are, but thats not the point), its that their actions are actively hurting the economy - monopoly prices yield economic profit for the seller (not accounting profit - at market equilibrium, firms with accounting profit are making zero economic profit because opportunity costs are figured into the cost curve) and deadweight loss for the society. Take some econ 1 - this stuff is straight out of that course.
PhoebyTaru wrote:
And no one has responded to the "If you knew your AH sales were bought with purchased gil, would you send the gil back?" question. Interesting.
If I could get the item back, yes. Either way, I'd blacklist the buyer, let my LS know, and be done with it. I don't see the gil as being somehow tainted, I see the player as the problem, and I've done what I can to let that player know and stop that sort of behavior in the future.
PhoebyTaru wrote:
Velfire, I appreciate your response, and if you rated me down, understandable. I rated you up for the thought out response.
No rate-downs from me - our basic disagreement is "barrier to entry", other than that, I'm applying standard economic definitions to the situation, and Vana'diel is basically a free-market economy with certain controls, like you'd find in a typical free-market economy. While I'm not pointing out any concrete evils that have directly arose from the actions of gil sellers, I think my argument is sound from an economics perspective.
(Whooooo boy this is gonna be a long one. Hope your scroll-wheel finger's in shape.)
I am never comfortable with giving out a lot of personal information in public forums on the net. As to my age Zander, suffice to say that I am an adult, past college, who has worked for several very large corporations.
And while I agree that in the case of very large corporations it is impossible for a low level customer service rep to know everthing about their employer's activities, I would argue 1) that this is perfectly fine, but that in my opinion you still have a duty to continue to learn about the company and reassess whether you want to continue to support said company, and 2) that by and large this isn't applicable to the case of gil-sellers, if my understanding of the companies which employ them is correct.
It is my understanding that most if not all of these companies are actually quite small, as far as actual employees goes. Most of the gil-sellers them are considered independant contractors providing a service to the gil-selling companies, for which they are recompensed. The remainder of actual employees are presumably folk like customer support, marketing, finance, payroll, etc.
Additionally as I understand it this business of gil-selling is generally the primary business activity of the majority of these companies. Given that I find it hard to believe that an employee of such a company could have no clue about what business in which their employer is engaged.
If either of these points is inaccurate, please feel free to correct me.
Now, as a point of clarification, I do agree that Arcedo's attempt at contacting a gil-selling company was a misdirected effort. There are other, potentially more effective, avenues of combatting gil-selling. I do not recommend actual harrassment and/or MPK'ing of gil-sellers. This is blatantly against the ToS, and puts those who wish to see gil-selling eliminated in a bad light. I personally find such activities juvenile, and ineffective.
If you want gil-sellers gone, camp the same NM's as them. Undercut them.
Farm in the same area's as them.
Have at it. But in a way, Zander is right. These are just guys trying to make a buck. I don't consider that any defense, but they shouldn't be the primary targets.
The problem is two-fold, as I see it. Firstly, the gil-selling companies exist because there is a market for their services. In my mind, the market can be broken into two demographics.
1) Newer players who aren't fully aware on the impact providing a market for gil-sellers has on the game they enjoy (more on the impacts of gil-sellers shortly).
2) Experienced players with cash to spend and don't particularly care if the purchase they make to "cheat" in this video game hurts other people.
Secondly, it seems thus far that Square-Enix has done little to stop the gil-sellers. This is a subject of debate, and I don't particularly care to see a correlary arguement erupt in an already heated thread. Suffice to say that whatever Square-Enix's efforts toward eliminating gil-selling have been, their consumers are largely unaware of them, and their own observations lead many to believe that nothing is being done.
A correlary arguement I often hear is "Why should Squenix care?" I would argue that they should care a great deal. An old rule in customer service is that perception is reality. Regardless of how you, as the customer service rep, perceive a given situation, it is how your client views it that should be your primary concern, as to them that is not merely a point of view but a *reality*. And if they are not happy with that reality they may take their business elsewhere.
Correlary issues aside, here is what I would consider to be the best possible tactics toward combatting gil-sellers, if you are interested in doing such.
I'll cover the second facet of the problem first, just to mix things up a bit, convincing Squenix that it is in their best interests to step up their efforts to combat gil-sellers, and also to make their efforts more apparent to the folk that keep them in business. Us. I'm talking long-term results from a slow loss of customer loyalty.
How?
Keep up the GM calls. Do NOT call GM's just because a group camps an NM a lot. This is not a breach of the ToS and you are just serving to further tie GM's up in extraneous petitions when their time could be better spent doing their actual jobs.
But if a gil-seller acts in a rude and insulting or inappropriate fasion, call a GM.
If you witness a gil-seller MPK'ing players, like what happened last week (admittedly spurred on by another player egging the gil-sellers on), call a GM.
If you notice a particular player is online 24-7, always fishing, or mining, or camping an NM or whatever, petition a GM, informing you that you suspect the player is using a bot. They won't do anything to the player right away, but continued calls about such individuals will probably put them somewhat under surveilance.
Write letters. To Squenix. To gaming magazines. Be polite. Be intelligent and argue your points well. Also be concise. There exists a thread in this forum run by Taliph with the intent of organizing such letter writing efforts. Mention your own bad experiences. Mail to as many as you can. Let them know you wrote to their competitors as well, if you are writing to gaming mags. Dare them to miss out on a "scoop" by informing them that they are not the only ones with your information. (Don't actually dare them verbally, that's just crude. A simple cc: notation at the bottom of your letter would be sufficient.)
Also mention the following point, which serves as introduction to my thoughts on how to eliminate the gil-sellers' market.
Many of the newer players learn about their opportunity to purchase gil through advertising in place on gaming websites. GameFaqs is the one that comes to mind quickest. They see this advertising, they are not aware of any harmful effects on their server's economy (again, getting to that), and in many cases they are not even aware that purchasing gil is a violation of ToS. This is admittedly their own fault, but only requires some polite education to help alleviate.
Educate them by talking to them in game. By writing gaming mags. Combat the advertising in places these gamers frequent, such as GameFaqs, by mentioning such places when you write your letters.
As for the more experienced players who purchase gil, don't associate with them. If you are the type who is bothered by gil-sellers or bots (and if you are not, then this really isn't directed to you) then don't pt with them. Don't LS with them. Don't be rude. Don't be insulting. Don't MPK them. But make it clear where you stand, and that you will not have association with someone who purchases or sells gil. Make it not worth their investment on a social level.
Wrapping this up, I think I'll touch on the actual economic impact of gil-sellers, and this should be a pretty quick point.
I am not an economist. I do not have the years of training neccessary for a person to be able to research an economic situation and determine whether or not this situation or that is resulting in economic turmoil. But I will venture to make a stab in the dark.
Is gil-selling as bad as some think? No, not at all.
Is gil-selling as small an issue as some think? I doubt it.
The problem it creates more than any other, at least as I see it, is that it has a destabilizing effect on our game's economy. It's not the price-gouging, nor the undercutting, that is the problem. These happen in any healthy economy. And indeed despite what popular culture tends to maintain, monopolies can actually be very benefitial to an economy, as they promote competition, rather than drive it out.
How do you compete? Undercut the gougers. Drive them out. Undercut the undercutter to, if you really want to go to that much effort. Drive them out.
The instability comes from the fact that now gil has a real world value, and the ability to acrue as much as they can, as fast as they can, has a real correlation with whether the gil-sellers get paid. So flucuation in our little virtual economy increases at an increasing rate.
Am I recommending that we destabilize it further? Yes. For the short-term, with the long term benefit of driving the gil-sellers out.
In closing, a thank you to Zander, for his candid arguements. I admittedly took offense at first to your inquiry about my age, but upon reflection I think you were more trying to determine my experience as a member of the workforce rather than trying to determine if I was "old enough" to have my own opinions on topics of debate.
When I was younger I had many of my opinions laughed at or ignored (opinions I still hold many years later) in public forums on the sole basis that I was such-and-such an age and thus my opinions were foolish and must be incorrect.
It's a sore spot with me to this day.
Having made a point of re-reading your post several times, I am glad to see that my initial reaction was incorrect, and that you were more interested in the validity of my arguements from the perspective of how much experience I've actually had with the subject on which I was arguing. I am glad I re-read, or you might have encountered a post of a very different tone.
In any event, rate up for Zander, for being candid.
[/end loving the sound of my own voice and talking for hours on end]
I am never comfortable with giving out a lot of personal information in public forums on the net. As to my age Zander, suffice to say that I am an adult, past college, who has worked for several very large corporations.
And while I agree that in the case of very large corporations it is impossible for a low level customer service rep to know everthing about their employer's activities, I would argue 1) that this is perfectly fine, but that in my opinion you still have a duty to continue to learn about the company and reassess whether you want to continue to support said company, and 2) that by and large this isn't applicable to the case of gil-sellers, if my understanding of the companies which employ them is correct.
It is my understanding that most if not all of these companies are actually quite small, as far as actual employees goes. Most of the gil-sellers them are considered independant contractors providing a service to the gil-selling companies, for which they are recompensed. The remainder of actual employees are presumably folk like customer support, marketing, finance, payroll, etc.
Additionally as I understand it this business of gil-selling is generally the primary business activity of the majority of these companies. Given that I find it hard to believe that an employee of such a company could have no clue about what business in which their employer is engaged.
If either of these points is inaccurate, please feel free to correct me.
Now, as a point of clarification, I do agree that Arcedo's attempt at contacting a gil-selling company was a misdirected effort. There are other, potentially more effective, avenues of combatting gil-selling. I do not recommend actual harrassment and/or MPK'ing of gil-sellers. This is blatantly against the ToS, and puts those who wish to see gil-selling eliminated in a bad light. I personally find such activities juvenile, and ineffective.
If you want gil-sellers gone, camp the same NM's as them. Undercut them.
Farm in the same area's as them.
Have at it. But in a way, Zander is right. These are just guys trying to make a buck. I don't consider that any defense, but they shouldn't be the primary targets.
The problem is two-fold, as I see it. Firstly, the gil-selling companies exist because there is a market for their services. In my mind, the market can be broken into two demographics.
1) Newer players who aren't fully aware on the impact providing a market for gil-sellers has on the game they enjoy (more on the impacts of gil-sellers shortly).
2) Experienced players with cash to spend and don't particularly care if the purchase they make to "cheat" in this video game hurts other people.
Secondly, it seems thus far that Square-Enix has done little to stop the gil-sellers. This is a subject of debate, and I don't particularly care to see a correlary arguement erupt in an already heated thread. Suffice to say that whatever Square-Enix's efforts toward eliminating gil-selling have been, their consumers are largely unaware of them, and their own observations lead many to believe that nothing is being done.
A correlary arguement I often hear is "Why should Squenix care?" I would argue that they should care a great deal. An old rule in customer service is that perception is reality. Regardless of how you, as the customer service rep, perceive a given situation, it is how your client views it that should be your primary concern, as to them that is not merely a point of view but a *reality*. And if they are not happy with that reality they may take their business elsewhere.
Correlary issues aside, here is what I would consider to be the best possible tactics toward combatting gil-sellers, if you are interested in doing such.
I'll cover the second facet of the problem first, just to mix things up a bit, convincing Squenix that it is in their best interests to step up their efforts to combat gil-sellers, and also to make their efforts more apparent to the folk that keep them in business. Us. I'm talking long-term results from a slow loss of customer loyalty.
How?
Keep up the GM calls. Do NOT call GM's just because a group camps an NM a lot. This is not a breach of the ToS and you are just serving to further tie GM's up in extraneous petitions when their time could be better spent doing their actual jobs.
But if a gil-seller acts in a rude and insulting or inappropriate fasion, call a GM.
If you witness a gil-seller MPK'ing players, like what happened last week (admittedly spurred on by another player egging the gil-sellers on), call a GM.
If you notice a particular player is online 24-7, always fishing, or mining, or camping an NM or whatever, petition a GM, informing you that you suspect the player is using a bot. They won't do anything to the player right away, but continued calls about such individuals will probably put them somewhat under surveilance.
Write letters. To Squenix. To gaming magazines. Be polite. Be intelligent and argue your points well. Also be concise. There exists a thread in this forum run by Taliph with the intent of organizing such letter writing efforts. Mention your own bad experiences. Mail to as many as you can. Let them know you wrote to their competitors as well, if you are writing to gaming mags. Dare them to miss out on a "scoop" by informing them that they are not the only ones with your information. (Don't actually dare them verbally, that's just crude. A simple cc: notation at the bottom of your letter would be sufficient.)
Also mention the following point, which serves as introduction to my thoughts on how to eliminate the gil-sellers' market.
Many of the newer players learn about their opportunity to purchase gil through advertising in place on gaming websites. GameFaqs is the one that comes to mind quickest. They see this advertising, they are not aware of any harmful effects on their server's economy (again, getting to that), and in many cases they are not even aware that purchasing gil is a violation of ToS. This is admittedly their own fault, but only requires some polite education to help alleviate.
Educate them by talking to them in game. By writing gaming mags. Combat the advertising in places these gamers frequent, such as GameFaqs, by mentioning such places when you write your letters.
As for the more experienced players who purchase gil, don't associate with them. If you are the type who is bothered by gil-sellers or bots (and if you are not, then this really isn't directed to you) then don't pt with them. Don't LS with them. Don't be rude. Don't be insulting. Don't MPK them. But make it clear where you stand, and that you will not have association with someone who purchases or sells gil. Make it not worth their investment on a social level.
Wrapping this up, I think I'll touch on the actual economic impact of gil-sellers, and this should be a pretty quick point.
I am not an economist. I do not have the years of training neccessary for a person to be able to research an economic situation and determine whether or not this situation or that is resulting in economic turmoil. But I will venture to make a stab in the dark.
Is gil-selling as bad as some think? No, not at all.
Is gil-selling as small an issue as some think? I doubt it.
The problem it creates more than any other, at least as I see it, is that it has a destabilizing effect on our game's economy. It's not the price-gouging, nor the undercutting, that is the problem. These happen in any healthy economy. And indeed despite what popular culture tends to maintain, monopolies can actually be very benefitial to an economy, as they promote competition, rather than drive it out.
How do you compete? Undercut the gougers. Drive them out. Undercut the undercutter to, if you really want to go to that much effort. Drive them out.
The instability comes from the fact that now gil has a real world value, and the ability to acrue as much as they can, as fast as they can, has a real correlation with whether the gil-sellers get paid. So flucuation in our little virtual economy increases at an increasing rate.
Am I recommending that we destabilize it further? Yes. For the short-term, with the long term benefit of driving the gil-sellers out.
In closing, a thank you to Zander, for his candid arguements. I admittedly took offense at first to your inquiry about my age, but upon reflection I think you were more trying to determine my experience as a member of the workforce rather than trying to determine if I was "old enough" to have my own opinions on topics of debate.
When I was younger I had many of my opinions laughed at or ignored (opinions I still hold many years later) in public forums on the sole basis that I was such-and-such an age and thus my opinions were foolish and must be incorrect.
It's a sore spot with me to this day.
Having made a point of re-reading your post several times, I am glad to see that my initial reaction was incorrect, and that you were more interested in the validity of my arguements from the perspective of how much experience I've actually had with the subject on which I was arguing. I am glad I re-read, or you might have encountered a post of a very different tone.
In any event, rate up for Zander, for being candid.
[/end loving the sound of my own voice and talking for hours on end]
If I may interrject, As per a few posts back which have probably been laid back to rest, and forgotten. Unforunately i've just got around to reading this thread because I simply did not care until I read said posts, Just now.
Anywho, The gilfarmers have indeed cut into my own personal play, and a lot of my friends. Why? Because before they even came, ****..Before most Americans even started playing we have camped NM's. Camping NM's was not only our only means of making gil, but some means of having fun. Yes, We enjoyed camping NM's and timing their spawns. I still, sometimes go out and camp a NM that Gilfarmers don't camp...but everyone else camps those. But, What's the point of camping something...where's the fun in camping something you have no chance of claiming? True, I've over claimed from a Gilfarmer a few times before. ****, I used to get three-four dodge earrings in an hour of camping it. Now? They rarely drop. Why? I don't know. But, The drop rate on them has decreased greatly.
As a matter of fact, the drop rate on MOST NM's has decreased greatly.
So, Yes. The gilfarmers have effect a few players. Maybe not many, But a few. Recently, I made a party and we went to Valley of Sorrows. Oddly enough, a few level 65 gilfarmers, underleveled subs, and the ones that weren't anon? Rank2. No self respecting *** would be rank2, Have an underleveled sub and be EXPing in Valley at level 65. Their tank was a monk. My party got there, and being the decent players we are started cleaning the place out. This other party began to try to MPK us, They would zone five-seven raptors at a time. We would take them out each time, I got pissed...Said **** this. The THF had began to share the same sentiments as the rest of us, and myself were feeling. So, We zoned Seventeen Raptors, and Four perytons onto them. We came back into the zone, the whole party was dead. They continued to harass me, and the rest of the party in tells. And, After they had trained onto us and spammed us with tells/checks/emotes they asked us for RAISE. I denied it, the WHM denied it, and the RDM. I was shortly after contacted by a GM, had we called a GM on the gilfarmers nothing would have been done. We were all taken out of the zone, and when we saw our characters we were all dead. No raise 2, nothing.
A few days later, in the same zone. The same thing happened, though we did not counter-MPK them. We called a GM. Nothing was done. It couldn't be proved. We were all livid.
The Morale of this story? ....Don't ever try to give a gilfarmer what they give you.
Goodday.
Anywho, The gilfarmers have indeed cut into my own personal play, and a lot of my friends. Why? Because before they even came, ****..Before most Americans even started playing we have camped NM's. Camping NM's was not only our only means of making gil, but some means of having fun. Yes, We enjoyed camping NM's and timing their spawns. I still, sometimes go out and camp a NM that Gilfarmers don't camp...but everyone else camps those. But, What's the point of camping something...where's the fun in camping something you have no chance of claiming? True, I've over claimed from a Gilfarmer a few times before. ****, I used to get three-four dodge earrings in an hour of camping it. Now? They rarely drop. Why? I don't know. But, The drop rate on them has decreased greatly.
As a matter of fact, the drop rate on MOST NM's has decreased greatly.
So, Yes. The gilfarmers have effect a few players. Maybe not many, But a few. Recently, I made a party and we went to Valley of Sorrows. Oddly enough, a few level 65 gilfarmers, underleveled subs, and the ones that weren't anon? Rank2. No self respecting *** would be rank2, Have an underleveled sub and be EXPing in Valley at level 65. Their tank was a monk. My party got there, and being the decent players we are started cleaning the place out. This other party began to try to MPK us, They would zone five-seven raptors at a time. We would take them out each time, I got pissed...Said **** this. The THF had began to share the same sentiments as the rest of us, and myself were feeling. So, We zoned Seventeen Raptors, and Four perytons onto them. We came back into the zone, the whole party was dead. They continued to harass me, and the rest of the party in tells. And, After they had trained onto us and spammed us with tells/checks/emotes they asked us for RAISE. I denied it, the WHM denied it, and the RDM. I was shortly after contacted by a GM, had we called a GM on the gilfarmers nothing would have been done. We were all taken out of the zone, and when we saw our characters we were all dead. No raise 2, nothing.
A few days later, in the same zone. The same thing happened, though we did not counter-MPK them. We called a GM. Nothing was done. It couldn't be proved. We were all livid.
The Morale of this story? ....Don't ever try to give a gilfarmer what they give you.
Goodday.
Just as one final note from me.
I never intended this turn into a war of words but rather
I'd originally intended to suggest that rather than do something counter-productive to go about and do something about the current situation with gil-farming in a manner that would actually mean something.
In the end, the decision lies upon the shoulders of Square-Enix wether or not they are going to actually to enforce a ToS that they put together to help govern software that they created or not.
Contacting the people who are violating it will not do anything as they can continually log in and out of the game, create new characters, change servers, change names, ie; If you really want to do something about it as was posted in a brilliant rebuttal by Nataraja in this thread and by myself in other Server forums on this website contact the head honcho. Write to S-E, write to magazines, make your opinion count where it does the most and don't waste unnecessary time and effort frivolously.
Anyway this will be my last post in this thread on this topic.
Regards
Zander
P.S. Everyone who posted a response here gets a rate up from me due to the fact that this entire thread was civil. Plus the Karma Trolls didn't get me again
/shocked
I never intended this turn into a war of words but rather
I'd originally intended to suggest that rather than do something counter-productive to go about and do something about the current situation with gil-farming in a manner that would actually mean something.
In the end, the decision lies upon the shoulders of Square-Enix wether or not they are going to actually to enforce a ToS that they put together to help govern software that they created or not.
Contacting the people who are violating it will not do anything as they can continually log in and out of the game, create new characters, change servers, change names, ie; If you really want to do something about it as was posted in a brilliant rebuttal by Nataraja in this thread and by myself in other Server forums on this website contact the head honcho. Write to S-E, write to magazines, make your opinion count where it does the most and don't waste unnecessary time and effort frivolously.
Anyway this will be my last post in this thread on this topic.
Regards
Zander
P.S. Everyone who posted a response here gets a rate up from me due to the fact that this entire thread was civil. Plus the Karma Trolls didn't get me again
/shocked
Scholar
33 posts
There seems to be something similar in everyone's arguements. everyone is against the selling of gil to the PC's within Vana'diel. And i myself will be one more person who plays the game to agree 100%. What's happening here is that everyone is arguing about if a phone conversation was correct or not, thats not important. What IS important is to halt these gil sellers as soon as possible.
Now, i have noticed a few good points throughout this arguement. The first point i saw was that the phone/chat represenatives have no idea what it is they work for, they just do a job that they are told to do. As much as this disturbs me as well, i can complain about people's choice of employment (some people just HAVE to resort to this as the only means of income). Second, the only effective means to prevent this is have the "big guys" take them out... thus being SE!
I am no bussiness man, i do not have a law degree of any sorts... hell, im still earning my BS in Mathematics. So what i am suggesting (IF this works) is to get together a form of petition or even just writing emails to Square-Enix. I know we all complain about how there customer support is worthless and they hardly do anything for those of us who play within Vana'diel. But like i said, IF this works great and IF it doesnt then too bad, all that would matter in this case is the effort from a community of gamers who care about the world they play in and trying to come together as a community!
We all sit here and post messages on these forums, and does that not take time to type out every word and thought that we have. Instead of typing here in the forum, take the time to type an email to SE about these gil-sellers and put a stop to them. Again, they may not be able to stop them, but at least we can MAKE them realize that they have a numerous amount of people who care greatly about Vana'diel because it is a place where many of us go to escape our RL problems and have fun!
I agree that the gil-sellers ruin the game for many of us, but writing in a forum wont solve ANY of this problem. Try out what I say and see where it gets us, i for one will be the one to start! Write an email to the SE, try to get through to them, and get others to join in. We CAN make a difference, but i myself cannot do it... we NEED EVERYONE in Vana'diel to join in this fight against the gil-sellers. This is our conflict... you fight for whats right, or you die trying. Those who just sit there just allow more and more gil-sellers to gain access into Vana'diel!
If anyone can elaborate on this idea, please do. I am no bussiness man or law graduate, so i do not know what can and cannot be done. But everything is worth a shot, even if it is pointless in the end!
Now, i have noticed a few good points throughout this arguement. The first point i saw was that the phone/chat represenatives have no idea what it is they work for, they just do a job that they are told to do. As much as this disturbs me as well, i can complain about people's choice of employment (some people just HAVE to resort to this as the only means of income). Second, the only effective means to prevent this is have the "big guys" take them out... thus being SE!
I am no bussiness man, i do not have a law degree of any sorts... hell, im still earning my BS in Mathematics. So what i am suggesting (IF this works) is to get together a form of petition or even just writing emails to Square-Enix. I know we all complain about how there customer support is worthless and they hardly do anything for those of us who play within Vana'diel. But like i said, IF this works great and IF it doesnt then too bad, all that would matter in this case is the effort from a community of gamers who care about the world they play in and trying to come together as a community!
We all sit here and post messages on these forums, and does that not take time to type out every word and thought that we have. Instead of typing here in the forum, take the time to type an email to SE about these gil-sellers and put a stop to them. Again, they may not be able to stop them, but at least we can MAKE them realize that they have a numerous amount of people who care greatly about Vana'diel because it is a place where many of us go to escape our RL problems and have fun!
I agree that the gil-sellers ruin the game for many of us, but writing in a forum wont solve ANY of this problem. Try out what I say and see where it gets us, i for one will be the one to start! Write an email to the SE, try to get through to them, and get others to join in. We CAN make a difference, but i myself cannot do it... we NEED EVERYONE in Vana'diel to join in this fight against the gil-sellers. This is our conflict... you fight for whats right, or you die trying. Those who just sit there just allow more and more gil-sellers to gain access into Vana'diel!
If anyone can elaborate on this idea, please do. I am no bussiness man or law graduate, so i do not know what can and cannot be done. But everything is worth a shot, even if it is pointless in the end!
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