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Zam.com Q&AFollow

#427 May 04 2006 at 6:05 AM Rating: Good
Quote:
www.vanguardsoh.com/forums/showpost.php?p=190819&postcount=260]

So what changed?


Yes, please answer that question? Why not raise the premium membership? Its remained the same amount since the beginning.

Part of the premium membership was the idea that is was helping to keep the site going in the hands of gamers and out of the hands of the "Soul-Sucking Suits of Greed"?

I guess I'm most hurt because you didn't come to the community first and offer US the chance to make things easier.

I ask you please, if you can't get out of it. If it is really a done deal? PLEASE just Take the money and go? Its going to be tough watching you broken down by one demand after another from the "Soul Sucking Suits of Greed".


You've done a Man's job! Too bad it couldn't last.
Then again, I guess it never does...




Edited, Thu May 4 07:06:56 2006 by Vassa
#428 May 04 2006 at 6:06 AM Rating: Decent
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130 posts
It is... in terms of passive smoking.

Pacifier = baby enjoys it, noone gets hurt.
Lit cigarette = other people ahve to breathe that crap and then try rehabilitate the baby.

People who buy in game currency and characters make others life harder as they come in rich or at endgame and WE have tot rain them. they mess up, they waste time and are generally a disruptive force within the game universe.

...

Would this be a moral, personal or ethical stance? I'm not sure, maybe all three.
#429 May 04 2006 at 6:08 AM Rating: Decent
The truth about IGE and the gold industry
Gold Selling.

To players like me, nothing is more corrupting than selling. In a virtual world where you are suppoused to earn your your status, some people like to take shortcuts, ruining the game for others (farming anyone?) After my recent post about what IGE owned, I got a lot of positive emails, thanking me for the info. With that feedback in mind, I decided to delve a bit deeper into IGE.

PLEASE NOTE: This has involved a lot of research. Archive.org, whois.sc WHOIS history, talking to people, investigating relationships. It has been an intensive process, and I have documented all that I could (and relied on reliable sources when I couldn't).

In the Beginning

cannotlinkto was originally used by an imagine processing company. Sometime in the middle of 2003, the company sprung up. While their original history is a bit muddled, the creation of the company is a bit quizzical. The company was founded by Brock Pierce, who was a child actor (his most famous movie being First Kid, with Sinbad). Originally based in Spain, the commpany moved to Hong Kong (I have verified by sources that is where they started). There was an internet rumor/article that later went on claiming that Brock's former partners (from a company called DEN) were infact child molestors. This culminated in the following vulgar flash video (NSFW). Some quotable news pieces:


DEN Founder Marc Collins-Rector Arrested in Spain After Two-Year Manhunt
- VentureReporter.net Monday, May 20, 2002, 4:15 PM ET



SIX-MINUTE SHOWS. Although they weren't named in the suit, DEN co-founders Chad M. Shackley, 24, and Brock Pierce, 18, also resigned. Company officials say they left with Collins-Rector because the trio is closely aligned and plans to start a new data-storage business.


As a (related) aside, DEN was one of the most spectacular flameouts on the web. An interesting read is the ************* board.

So Brock was management in a company that fleeced millions, happened to be in Spain where Collins-Rector was also, and then moved the company to HK right after he got arrested? Interesting bit of coincidences.

With that vulgar picture in mind, we take a break, and look at hte original pioneer.

Gold Industry begins with Yantis

Selling virtual currency was nothing new when Brock came rolling in. eBay had tons of auctions for UO Gold (and still has quite a few). Yet what really got the market going was a Mr. Jonathan Yantis, of MySuperSales fame.

Originally starting with EverQuest, Yantis (as he was referred to) quickly became a villian in the game. Looking to broaden his appeal, Yantis bought out Monkly-Business, which was the favorite hangout for EQ Monks. Gaining more traffic from this, he then expanded and bought out Luclin.com and Prexus.com

What ensued was a firestorm. While M-B had been left alone, Yantis directly moderated the newly bought boards. Removing all bad press about himself, and seeding in threads about how great his service was, the two sites were completely dead within weeks, all links changing from the original sites to newly ones created by users. Yantis had tried using his money to buy part of the market, and he had failed.

This all happened before IGE even existed on the radar.

At this time, Yantis had successfully become the biggest player in the market. Dominating the marketplace at cannotlinkto (Sony had successfully gotten eBay to remove all EQ auctions, and thus people used this site instead), he had also begun to aggressively advertise on other sites. With a 10% comission and a rumored 40% profit margin, Yantis was sitting pretty.

Then came IGE. Well-financed, the company started making inroads into the market. A professional service equal to Yantis, they started to gain market share.

Yantis was not sitting idly. For all the money he (and IGE) were making, their exposure was still very little. He owned a few sites, advertised on a few (but none of the big ones), and was paying quite a bit to advertise through Google and and Goto/Overture. It was with the introduction of IGE that in late 2002 Yantis started playing the SEO game.

A lot of SEO (search engine optimization) can be cast as spam. Stuffing their page with keywords, buying links from pages with high PageRank, these specialists game the system so that their sites show up on top of search engine results. (Please note: A lot of SEOers are great people, who don't spam or ***** sites. But an equally large portion is a shady underbelly of the internet).

Suddenly Yantis was getting tons of traffic from search engines. He even broke top 10 on google for the word 'everquest', displacing quality sites with his platinum-selling storefront.

So while Yantis was rapidly getting new customers, whats a competitor to do?

And so begun a movement engineered by IGE to discredit Yantis. While Yantis was marked as being an individual using exploits and dupes to create gold, IGE set themselves up as the 'conscientous' choice, a good and moral company that didn't employ and farmers and just paid wholesalers.

Yes, I'm serious. The sentiment actually shifted with Yantis being blamed for all of EQ's ills and IGE looked up as a 'good' alternative.

But that didn't stop Yantis. Far from it. He kept growing and growing. IGE was also growing (and building contacts with game providers), but was still second to Yantis.

And so this continued until end of 2003. Suddenly MySuperSales went offline. Was all that money making just a mirage?

Not even close. While I cannot trace it specifically to IGE, the attack worked. Whois history shows Yantis suddenly moving to Rackspace after the worm was identified. You can see that Symantec marked its distribution high, so whoever put this out did a good job. Almost sounds like online rackateering.

But this worm was just a preview of the upcoming fierce battle.

Yantis begins acquiring MMO websites

Around New Year's of 2004, while everyone at SOE was busy eating and sleeping, Yantis announced the acquisition of a few sites. Starting with EQBeastlord and EQDruids, the sites had suddenly sold out to Yantis. But this time, instead of moderating the forums, Yantis opted to just stick his banner on the site, and leave it alone. A smart move - most newbies would end up just viewing the content anyway, missing all the ******** happening in the forums. And since he wasn't moderating the sites, a lot of the links never got removed.

And so began a movement that finally broke down the barrier and made currency selling common.

Happy with the results from the first days, Yantis started snapping up websites left and right. Before SOE even new what had happened, half a dozen class websites were under Yantis' ownership. And he wasn't done - not even close. Over the next few weeks, deals were made, only to be broken by IGE waving around money. The peak (with EQ) came with interealms.com - the largest forum community, it suppousedly went for over $50,000. What made this even more nuts was that Yantis had already bought and paid for the site. The owner actually returned the wire transfer and stated that Yantis, enraged with what had happened, actually threatened to sue him for breach of contract.

Along the way, in continuing to develop its relationship with game developers, IGE hired Themis Group, an MMO consulting company. After a fierce backlash, the company removed all signs of the deal ever having occured. Themis Group also owns the WarCry Network.

That never happened, as what happened next blew most people's minds.

IGE buys out Yantis

In the middle of this frenzy, where Yantis acquired 75% of the websites, IGE 25%, and SOE only moving to help out EQInterface (paying them over $10k/month!), a stunning announcement came: IGE had purchased MySuperSales.

Announced on January 22, 2004, the rumored value was that IGE had paid $10 million to Yantis. Of course, my sources confirmed this was not true. Instead what had happened was that Yantis (whose revenue was actually twice that of IGE) had not only realized that his image was tarnished, but also that with them competing with each other and the market growing, it was easier (and likely more profitable) to work together. The end result was that MySuperSales (a brand with a negative stigma) ceased to be actively promoted. In turn, Yantis became the biggest shareholder in IGE, and IGE started to use his backend (and suppliers). So much for the 'Yantis is an exploiter' idea. A funny aside is that IGE had used a lot of money to lure people from Yantis' side to IGE. These people were promptly fired.

At this time IGE had now become a juggernaut. With their management team (Brock as deal-making/schmoozing CEO, Alan as the president, Yantis for strategy/existing infrastructure, and Randy as their general counsel), IGE continued to grow while devouring its competition.

IGE's only visible competition at this time was Team-VIP. Suppousedly holding out for a million dollars, the company was suddenly engulfed by fraud and ceased to exist. The domain and site are now backup again, except this time owned by IGE.

At the same time, IGE had continued buying up marquee sites. While snapping up large sites like L2orphus.com for a reported $5000 (and generating that much in sales every day), the big payday came when IGE successfully purchased ThottBot. By far the most popular WoW website, it went for a reported $100,000, with Bill (Thott) hired at a $100,000/year salary. Not only did this give IGE the most trafficked MMO site on the internet, it also gave it a lot of leverage against Blizzard.

While all this was happening, IGE was still busy expanding. Hiring well-connected talent from other companies (such as Stephen Salyer, a Vice President at both Ubisoft and EA). This was a concentrated effort by them - connect and brand with users through MMO websites, and connect and establish relationships with developers through their hired executives.

And all around this time came the acquisition of OGaming. An upcoming network, IGE's latest purchase continued the trend of buying their way to prospective gold-buying customers. RPG Holdings was created as a new company that owns all MMO-fansite assets. IGE began to start advertising in magazines, and worked hard to hide the ogaming<-->IGE connection, and the Thottbot<-->ogaming connection. To their dismay, this relationship was exposed.

To further a positive image within the MMO community, a fake interview was put up on OGaming to push their agenda (this has since been deleted, but can still be viewed in the internet archive ).

Present Day

Today IGE stands as a monsterous multimillion dollar operation with a stranglehold over the MMO gold industry. Some recent events of interest to gamers include:


IGE made a fake bid of $60k a few months back for a vanguard site just to confuse/scare Sigil Games.

IGE has acquired key domains, including ffxi.com, daoc.com, mxo.com, eq.com

Yantis leaves the company, suppousedly 36 million dollar payday (but over 3 years).

IGE acquires other companies, including Enotts and ezgaming

Originally working on deals with SOE, Linden Labs, and WB, all three fall through as SOE launches its own system, Linden does its own thing, and WB sells MxO to SOE.

IGE continues picking up executives from Yahoo! and Vivendi Universal (owners of Blizzard) (press page)

IGE, suppousedly bleeding money and unable to afford Yantis payment (estimated 1 million/month) releases him from non-compete. Yantis creates GamerKing, with a wholesale deal with IGE, and immediately starts stealing away IGE affiliates and trying to buy out websites.

Mogs and Lewt emerge as new competition, IGE talking to both Mogs and Lewt about a buyout.


If that isn't enough activity for you, here's the big news:

IGE acquires Allakhazam.

The deal happened in complete secrecy in about November 2005. Even many IGE employees were kept in the dark of the deal that was almost certainly worth millions.

IGE's OGaming had been bleeding money, and IGE was looking for a new website strategy. After adding gold currency ads to sites like thottbot and Ogaming, IGE shopped Ogaming around to investers but no one bought in. Thottbot and OGaming take up over 100 servers.

The Spin

Working to integrate all of their web properties (Ogaming, Thottbot, and Allakhazam), IGE today announced plans to create a new super-network, Zam.com. This new MMO network is being spun to the community as if Allakhazam had purchased Ogaming when it was himself who was bought out. We thought the truth should be known.

Read Allakhazam's spin for yourself.

http://wow.azzor.com/445/truth_about_IGE.php
#430 May 04 2006 at 6:31 AM Rating: Decent
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511 posts
I think you guys are all over-reacting. Once all of the initial hulabaloo dies down you will all be regreting your decision to flame Alla and his choice, he was only trying to make the site better for us.

- The Weaponsmith
#432 May 04 2006 at 6:43 AM Rating: Default
i apoligize for my poor wording, but what i meant by "like replacing a childs pacifier with a lit cigarette," was that that it's just as bad from a moral standpoint.


while this whole thing may tarnish this sites reputation in many of your eyes, the majority of people that use these sites won't care much at all.

people start businesses to make money, and i'm sure this one is no different. many successful small businesses are eventually bought out by a larger corporation, and in fact many people start a business with exactly that intention. why do you all expect so much more from those that run this site? at least they are sticking around to make sure that the quality of this site remains intact.

#433 May 04 2006 at 6:47 AM Rating: Default
Be prepared to have every item's forum comments to have pages of 'lols hunter weapon r0xx0rs'
#434 May 04 2006 at 6:48 AM Rating: Good
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2,705 posts
Quote:

I guess I'm most hurt because you didn't come to the community first and offer US the chance to make things easier.

Because its illegal to do so I belive, I'm not quite sure. Now that the cat is out of the bag so to speak, I'd really like to know what the name of this "parent" company, who bought alla is.


I must say that I'm somewhat wary of this development. Lots of new features are a good thing but potentially ruining the moral base that brught so many users here is probably the worst thing that could happen.
#435 May 04 2006 at 7:13 AM Rating: Good
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90 posts
Allakhazam wrote:
Before agreeing to anything like this, I wanted to make sure that there would be no interaction between those divisions and that I would have complete control over the new network

Interaction or no, that is like me saying I hate Ford! and yet go and buy a Jaguar. Ford owns Jaguar now, and because of that, there is a noticable Ford influence on Jaguar products. The same will end up here. They will get you nice and cozy, and through the convienent loopholes you fail to see in the contract (And their Lawyers made sure they would be there), IGE's influence will be felt here as well.

Even if the deal doesnt go sour in the end, I believe the perception is whats gonna hurt you in the end. You will be tied to the hip of a gillseller and you will loose respect. By reading the posts on this, I think the level of respect has already dropped. More importantly, the most vocal respondersare those who have given you money for accounts...you know, the ones you should really listen to?

Ah well, what do I know. Your wallet just got a bit fatter, so {Congratulations!}. Hope it lasts when IGE notices that your account base has dwindled to nothing, and that keeping you attached to them is costing them money therefore shutting you down.
#436REDACTED, Posted: May 04 2006 at 7:27 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Edited, Thu May 4 15:25:33 2006 by SphiriahSphinx
#437 May 04 2006 at 7:27 AM Rating: Decent
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219 posts
Corporate injustice is wrong, whether or not we are aware of anyone's life or livelihood at threat because of it (and there are strong suggestions that both are the case). I have no idea of what Allakhazam has been through over the past weeks and months. He must surely have been aware of IGE throwing money at sites like this one and of the implications of that.

Allakhazam is not the one at fault here.
#438 May 04 2006 at 7:30 AM Rating: Decent
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1,504 posts
This is very depressing news to wake up too. I have been a user of Allas since POP came out for EQ and a suscriber for the last year or two. I hate everything IGE stands for and may have to join with the others in not renewing my premium when it expires. THis is truly bad news.
Smiley: disappointed
____________________________
"If you ask me, we could do with a little less motivation. The people who are causing all the trouble seem highly motivated to me. Serial killers, stock swindlers, drug dealers, Christian Republicans"

George Carlin.

#439 May 04 2006 at 7:35 AM Rating: Default
To the OP

will there be links to allakhazam from IGE's RMT website?

#440 May 04 2006 at 7:48 AM Rating: Good
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3,826 posts
aakaakaak wrote:
IGN is yet another business (Ni Hao!).


Omg, IGE bought IGN now too! Damn you cruel world!
#441 May 04 2006 at 7:49 AM Rating: Good
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644 posts
Quote:
While we do not have a Vanguard site at this time, we have every intention of launching one. The reason we don't have on yet is that we don't really consider ourselves a news site, but instead try to post actual game play information, so we usually don't launch sites before the NDA lifts on the games, (though with Vanguard we may make an exception to that).

I can assure you that Allakhazam.com never has had and never will have any association with IGE. No amount of money will change that. We are players ourselves and disagree with everything they stand for. I've turned down their advances so many times in so many ways over the years that I think they have finally give up on us.

So I can assure you there will be at least on major Vanguard site that will have nothing to do with IGE or any other similar company.


/golfclap

I guess there was an amount of money that would be acceptable.

On the upside, you've been Wal-Marted in my book. I haven't and won't shop at Wal-Mart and I won't have any dealings with you either.

Edited, Thu May 4 08:51:12 2006 by Grady
____________________________
I saw the best minds of my generation destroyed by madness, starving hysterical naked, dragging themselves through the negro streets at dawn looking for an angry fix, angelheaded hipsters burning for the ancient heavenly connection to the starry dynamo in the machin ery of night.
#442 May 04 2006 at 8:06 AM Rating: Decent
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257 posts
Asier wrote:
Quote:

I guess I'm most hurt because you didn't come to the community first and offer US the chance to make things easier.

Because its illegal to do so I belive, I'm not quite sure. Now that the cat is out of the bag so to speak, I'd really like to know what the name of this "parent" company, who bought alla is.


I must say that I'm somewhat wary of this development. Lots of new features are a good thing but potentially ruining the moral base that brught so many users here is probably the worst thing that could happen.


Since when is it illegal to ask for donations.

A simple "this is what we would like to do with the site : *list of things they want/want to do* and this is what we need to be able to do it : 'x' numbers of premium accounts/'x' dollars in donations blah blah blah


Deciding that the general public will be estatic about the plan because your staff are was really dumb. DUH your staff are excited - full time job vs. part time, more money ....

It's disappointed that Alla threw his principles out the window for enough money
#443 May 04 2006 at 8:08 AM Rating: Good
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2,388 posts
=(
#445 May 04 2006 at 8:14 AM Rating: Good
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128 posts
Well, despite the fact that I'm completely and utterly shocked that you sold out to a company that has interest in RMT, Allakhazam...

Why would you even consider giving up Alla to a bigger company? You just bought yourself a pair of golden handcuffs my friend.
#446 May 04 2006 at 8:18 AM Rating: Good
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123 posts
I have been using Alla for about 3 years now. Now I can understand how some of you would say that "just becouse they were bought by an IGE owned company does not mean they will have gil selling ads and such on the sight". However that said, what does it matter no matter how you look at it they are now affiliated with a gold plat. gil. selling company.

I was very proud to be apart of this website. One of the things I was most proud about was the fact we actually had a magazine exec. come on the forums to tell us, they would pull IGE adds from there magazine. I can't remember the exact name of the magazine or the post but we at one time made a dif. in the MMO community.

This move however really thru me for a loop no matter what you say I will not be posting or using any sight affiliated with a gil selling company. I have deleted my character stats and this will be my last post until I hear otherwise..

A sad day for me :(

#447 May 04 2006 at 8:24 AM Rating: Good
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14,326 posts
I understand the desire to make the site better and needing money to do it. I understand the desire to be the "one source", to be the one place that everyone comes to for information.

I don't understand losing integrity to get it done.

Alla was always the anti-goldselling site. You'd never see ads, the spammers would get deleted instantly. This site stood above all that.

And now, even though it's not directly linked with IGE, the same people are profiting.

I'm turning off my auto-renew. I won't support IGE even indirectly. I'll probably still post/searh here, but my money won't go to support this.

Basically, the big bosses are using Alla's good reputation to clean the taint from Thott and OGaming. Too bad, that in the day of the internet, the news got out that Alla sold out, and now Alla's reputation is rapidly falling.
#448 May 04 2006 at 8:28 AM Rating: Decent
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1,563 posts
Allakhazam Defender of Justice wrote:
I realize some people are not going to be happy with this, but the fact is that we are now able to do things we just were never able to do before. This gives us the financial backing and stability to really do a great deal for everyone. Before the financial backing for the site was just me. Now it is a well financed corporation. I want our network to always be the first to have new game information. I want to be the destination of choice for anything having to do with any game we cover.


Well.... Sheesh I jus dont know what to say ....


I guess I'll start by saying that you're right about one thing... people aren't gonna be happy with it. Yes you may now be able to do things like never before ... but for who ? you're fanbase just took an rpg round to the body (not role playing game rpg). You want your networks to be the first to have new information, and you want to be the destination of choice... well you just threw that all away. For the most part, you already were the destination of choice. Sure there has been some growing pains and some things may be slow or have quirks ... but its not worth throwing everything away to be the best of the best.

Allakhazam was like the Muhammed Ali of game info .... now you're following in his footsteps for the fall as well... the guy couldn't hold a cup of coffee to save his life. Soon you wont be able to hold a forum because everyone is leaving and taking their posts down.

/sigh ... sad thing is that now I have to go through all the hundreds of posts I have to remove everything, and not just on this account ><. Definately wuzn't looking forward to that.
Don't get me wrong, some will stay. The ones who buy gil wont mind a bit, the ones who just don't care either way might stick around, but like you, or at least supposedly like you, the majority of us hate gilsellers/buyers and 75% of your population just turned in their 2 week notice.


/em drops his pink slip on the ground.

So long homie, been good times.
#449 May 04 2006 at 8:39 AM Rating: Decent
Well, I haven't read through all 9 pages so this may have been brought up already, but...

My biggest concern is that every informational/message board site that IGE (or it's corporate parent, same thing) has bought has gone completely to ****. rpgexpert.com used to be extremely useful and is beyond worthless. Same with the original class sites for shadowknights and beastlords. I hope the same thing doesn't happen with Allah's, but I have no reason to think it won't.

Bad news all the way around. Lame.
#450 May 04 2006 at 8:47 AM Rating: Excellent
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14,454 posts
I went to bed last night and thought long and hard about this. I slept on it and finished catching up on what was written after I logged last night. My thoughts for now:

Allah, from a business point, it didnt look like there was much choice if you wanted to make this the best gaming site. You and your employees have worked really hard to make this site what it is. We, the community members, see this, and applauded what you have done over the years. Many of us bought premium, not to just have use of the extra services, but as a way of showing our support. $3 a month is not much, we know. $3 a month isnt enough to do what you guys dream of doing. This businiess deal will allow you to now achieve those dreams that before, were just dreams. As a business owner, you did what you thought was best for the site and the community in the long run. You dont have the option to stay on your high moral horse when you are trying to run something as huge as Allas. SO I understand and applaud your business decisions, in the business sense.

On the other hand, we community members, dont have to get off our high moral stance. While you may need to grudgingly give way to something you find less than moral, we don't have to. IGE and other companies have ruined in game economies, making the gaming experience we love and adore less than stellar. It has created major difficulties for new players who wish to join the growing community of MMO lovers to have a chance at getting to the top without resorting to cheating. I've watched it happen on many of the MMOs Ive come to love. These companies are responsible for many of the gaming bots, out there camping for gold, KSing when a regular player dares to wander in the area looking to play after paying their monthly fee. These companies are responsible for the skyrocketing economy in most MMOs. There is a lot of resentment, anger, and frustration directed at these companies from the gamers who love the game for the game itself.

It's been stated many times that Allahs will have no affiliation with IGE. Sadly, while the connection may be very distant, the link is still there. From a business point, you did your best to keep it as far from your name as possible. But even some ties to it is dissapointing to the community who has stood behind you for many reasons, one of them your strong stance against gold/gil selling. It's already been stated that the parent company will allow you to run the site as you like so long as you stay profitable. But you have also stated you were losing income before the merge went down. You're going to gain a whole bunch of new users here witth the merge, but you will also be losing a lot of premium sales from your faithful members. A lot of your faithful do not want to take the chance that even one penny of theirs sent to support you could possibly end up in the hands of those who support IGE. And while Im no business person, I have to wonder what will change here to make this place profitable enough to keep the Parent company off your back?

I'm not leaving the community. My home away from home is the Asylum and those who post there are my friends. Allahs has been a great place to come and shoot the breeze when I have time. I really appreciate everything that has been done to make this site a great place. I never bought premium for the added options. I spent the $3 and would have spent more if you had asked, as a way of saying thank you so much for what you and your gang have done for the gaming community. But with all this new money coming in, I think I'll be turning off my autorenewal for awhile. It's not like my piddly $3 is anything compared to the money you guys now have, and until I get a more clear indication of what the money spent is supporting, even if from a distance, Id rather not take a chance.

Again, on a business level, I do heartily congratulate you. I think you did the only smart thing a company owner could have done. But please dont take it personal that we, the community, are not happy that it had to happen in the first place. While in the end it may be good for the site, we all feel as if we've been slapped in the face by the one person who we thought believed as strongly as we, that IGE and companies like it, help to destroy the MMOs we all love.
#451 May 04 2006 at 9:01 AM Rating: Decent
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4,148 posts
Allakhazam Defender of Justice Administrator wrote:
I don't like Marlboros, but I still buy oreos. I would never buy a Ford, but would definitely buy a Jaguar. Not big on Taco Bell, but like KFC. Many products you use are owned by people who own other products you may not like. It's the way of the world. As long as the companies are run separately, most people are fine with that. If your oreo cookie wrapper had a marlboro ad on it, maybe that would be a problem. It is important to keep in mind that we are a completely separate company within a large holding company that just happens to own other companies as well.


If Ford thrived off illegitimate activities I would not support them or Jaguar no matter how much I wanted their cars.

Good Going Genius!

You've lost one more member, I loved this site and you've ruined it. Today is the last I will read/answer/participate on this site.
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