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The state of western education due to cultural peculiaritiesFollow

#1 Aug 10 2010 at 2:06 PM Rating: Decent
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Corrupted education.

The above link is an article describing a study that concludes US children do not fully understand what the = sign means. This is not a dig against the US, it could just have easily been Canada.

I've been arguing this for years. The western culture of have it all now is causing us to change the curriculum for the lower grades. Children now are not taught how to spell correctly, how to solve problems using math. Instead they are taught how to put words together, and how to answer types of math questions. They can write a great essay with a spell checker, but trying to read a child's written work these days is task. They can do triple digit multiplication, but they can't figure out how long a piece of wood needs to be to hold up a wall.

If you give a child a math question they may be able to answer it, but if you change the format of the question they are lost. They don't actually understand the relationship between the various components of an equation they're simply answering the questions the same way they answered the last similar question they did correctly.

This of course leads to a large drop in grades once they hit high school where questions turn from a + b = c to c^2 = a^2 - b^2 + 4ac. The first example can be solved simply by filling in the blanks the second typically requires you to understand the function of the operands.

TL;DR

We're trying to teach our children too much instead of giving them a solid base to learn on. So the question becomes what is better? Knowing more but not quite as well, or having a solid grasp on the basics allowing you to understand what you know. I vote for the later, thoughts?

Edited, Aug 10th 2010 4:08pm by Yodabunny
#2 Aug 10 2010 at 2:09 PM Rating: Default
Yodabunny wrote:
but they can't figure out how long a piece of wood needs to be to hold up a wall.
Why the @#%^ would i ever need to know that?

Also, lol@stupid people.

Edited, Aug 10th 2010 4:10pm by ThePsychoticOne
#3 Aug 10 2010 at 2:13 PM Rating: Good
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ThePsychoticOne the Prohpet wrote:
Why the @#%^ would i ever need to know that?


You might need to calculate the angle of travel at a given velocity to intersect the path of a moving object, or to calculate transversal velocity for targeting calculations in game coding. All part of the same equations.

Edited, Aug 10th 2010 4:13pm by Yodabunny
#4 Aug 10 2010 at 2:20 PM Rating: Good
Or if you were going to be a carpenter or an architect it would be good to know as well. Smiley: wink2
#5 Aug 10 2010 at 2:29 PM Rating: Good
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People have a huge amount of trouble adjusting to variable math simply because they have to learn how to think abstractly. That's nothing new. High school math requires much greater capacity then elementary math, and not everyone is good at thinking that way. That's why there are tiers of math. Also, I'm not sure what grade you're talking about with written work, but kids writing has almost always been completely horrible to read.

Edited, Aug 10th 2010 3:32pm by Xsarus
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#6 Aug 10 2010 at 2:30 PM Rating: Decent
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There are a lot of problems withe education in west. I think much of it stems from a lack of research and understanding about how we learn. There is a lot of superstition in education and not enough data.Smaller classrooms are often touted as improving student performance, but there's very little evidence that it works.
#7 Aug 10 2010 at 2:38 PM Rating: Excellent
I think the largest problem we have in the education system here is the focus on standardized test scores. Sure, testing is a plausible way to test knowledge, but if all we're doing is teaching kids how to score well on the tests, kids aren't actually learning anything else. More time should be spent teaching kids critical thinking skills and actual material and that would help a lot.
#8 Aug 10 2010 at 2:46 PM Rating: Excellent
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Tests are mostly useless in elementary and middle school. Quizzes are fine, but they're just a tool to let the teacher know who needs help and where. They don't really help the students at all.
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#9REDACTED, Posted: Aug 10 2010 at 2:47 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Thank you captain obvious.
#10 Aug 10 2010 at 3:02 PM Rating: Excellent
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Should be obvious, but I've met people who think more tests are a great idea. Also giving low grade students tons of homework and studying.
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#11REDACTED, Posted: Aug 10 2010 at 3:20 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Well, more tests can allow teachers to figure out what they needs to be covered more thoroughly. They obviously don't teach the students anything, but then they aren't supposed to. They're supposed to teach the teachers about the students, so they know what topics they should spend more/less time on.
#12 Aug 10 2010 at 3:25 PM Rating: Excellent
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Sir Xsarus wrote:
Tests are mostly useless in elementary and middle school. Quizzes are fine, but they're just a tool to let the teacher know who needs help and where. They don't really help the students at all.

Let's just give everybody A's for effort then, and knock off with the whole grading system!
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#13REDACTED, Posted: Aug 10 2010 at 3:26 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Sure why not? It more of a measure of effort than how much you learned anyway.
#14 Aug 10 2010 at 3:28 PM Rating: Excellent
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Some dunce wrote:
I actually failed a class in HS once, where all year my lowest test score was around a 95, but because i "didn't pay attention in class", and didn't waste my time with useless homework, and various other pointless things, i failed, while other people who didn't understand a single thing taught in the class easily passed.

Who's the dunce: the people who "didn't understand a single thing" but passed the class, or the person who aced tests, but was too lazy to complete the homework and failed the class?

If I'm a university or employer, I'd rather have a person of average intelligence who's willing to work hard than a lazy prick who thinks he's clever.
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#15 Aug 10 2010 at 3:29 PM Rating: Good
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Putting in effort is required for grade school?

I though it was mostly finger painting and algebra.
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#16 Aug 10 2010 at 3:31 PM Rating: Default
Demea wrote:
Some dunce wrote:
I actually failed a class in HS once, where all year my lowest test score was around a 95, but because i "didn't pay attention in class", and didn't waste my time with useless homework, and various other pointless things, i failed, while other people who didn't understand a single thing taught in the class easily passed.
Who's the dunce: the people who "didn't understand a single thing" but passed the class, or the person who aced tests, but was too lazy to complete the homework and failed the class?

If I'm a university or employer, I'd rather have a person of average intelligence who's willing to work hard than a lazy prick who thinks he's clever.
Sure, except just because someone doesn't work hard to get a useless number doesn't mean they won't work harder for things that do matter to them.

And since grades are based on a unknown mix of effort and intelligence (and/or how well they could cheat without getting caught), you can't really determine much/anything from them.

Edited, Aug 10th 2010 5:33pm by ThePsychoticOne
#17 Aug 10 2010 at 3:31 PM Rating: Excellent
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Timelordwho wrote:
Putting in effort is required for grade school?

I though it was mostly finger painting and algebra.
Smiley: nod

Seriously Demea, I'm not talking about high school here.

Quote:
Sure, except just because someone doesn't work hard to get a useless number doesn't mean they won't work harder for things that do matter to them.
There is always a lot of tedious work to do. I don't want someone who only tries when they're really interested in something.

Edited, Aug 10th 2010 4:32pm by Xsarus
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#18 Aug 10 2010 at 3:35 PM Rating: Good
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Sir Xsarus wrote:
Sure, except just because someone doesn't work hard to get a useless number doesn't mean they won't work harder for things that do matter to them.
There is always a lot of tedious work to do. I don't want someone who only tries when they're really interested in something.[/quote]

Depends what job you're hiring for.

Typically you get some people to do tedious work and other people to do interesting work.

Maximizes talent usage.
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#19 Aug 10 2010 at 3:38 PM Rating: Excellent
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No such thing as an interesting job without any annoying parts.
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#20 Aug 10 2010 at 3:39 PM Rating: Excellent
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Some dunce wrote:
Sure, except just because someone doesn't work hard to get a useless number doesn't mean they won't work harder for things that do matter to them.
Sure it does. That you don't understand the correlation only leads me to believe that you're still in school of some level.

Sir Xsarus wrote:
Timelordwho wrote:
Putting in effort is required for grade school?

I though it was mostly finger painting and algebra.
Smiley: nod

Seriously Demea, I'm not talking about high school here.

PsychoticOne was talking about high school, so I thought I'd jump in there.

The thing about elementary and middle school that scares me isn't the grading system, it's the fact that the kids have a graduation ceremony for 5th and 8th grades.
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#21 Aug 10 2010 at 3:40 PM Rating: Default
Sir Xsarus wrote:
Quote:
Sure, except just because someone doesn't work hard to get a useless number doesn't mean they won't work harder for things that do matter to them.
There is always a lot of tedious work to do. I don't want someone who only tries when they're really interested in something.
Some tedious work isn't the same as all tedious work. It's not the same type of work. Schools assign pointless work to keep people busy. In real life, people don't don't get paid to do pointless **** that accomplishes nothing other than alleviating boredom. I don't mind doing boring work that i don't like, it's boring work that i don't like, that serves absolutely no purpose that i have a problem with.
#22 Aug 10 2010 at 3:59 PM Rating: Excellent
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Something from the article that caught my attention:
Quote:
"Students who have learned to memorize symbols and who have a limited understanding of the equal sign will tend to solve problems such as 4+3+2=( )+2 by adding the numbers on the left, and placing it in the parentheses, then add those terms and create another equal sign with the new answer," he said in a press release. "So the work would look like 4+3+2=(9)+2=11."

My first thought upon seeing the equation was "what's up with the empty parentheses?"

Yeah, I get that the problem is still easily solved, but it's terrible "math grammar", for lack of a better term. The "proper" way to write that equation would be to use an undefined variable, not an open set of parentheses.

Let's just say that I'm not prepared to stick a fork in Western education over this news.
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#23 Aug 10 2010 at 4:01 PM Rating: Excellent
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ThePsychoticOne the Prohpet wrote:
it's boring work that i don't like, that serves absolutely no purpose that i have a problem with.

Gee, that's the attitude employers are looking for.

Psychotic, you making the same mistake a lot of aobve average intelligence people get stuck in: overvaluing intelligence and undervaluing effort.
#24 Aug 10 2010 at 4:09 PM Rating: Default
Allegory wrote:
ThePsychoticOne the Prohpet wrote:
it's boring work that i don't like, that serves absolutely no purpose that i have a problem with.
Gee, that's the attitude employers are looking for.
Not wanting to waste time/effort doing things that don't matter at all? Sure, seems like a quality i'd look for in employees.

Allegory wrote:
Psychotic, you making the same mistake a lot of aobve average intelligence people get stuck in: overvaluing intelligence and undervaluing effort.
All the intelligence in the world doesn't mean a thing with no effort. Yeah, i get it. I really do. I understand that intelligence is not all that matters, and that working hard can be just as important, and sometimes even more important. However sometimes working hard for the sake of working hard serves absolutely no purpose, and wasting the time+effort to do so in such a case just seems stupid to me. I'm more than willing to work hard at things, unless the only result of that hard work is a smiley face sticker.
#25 Aug 10 2010 at 4:16 PM Rating: Excellent
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Usually the result of the tedious work is that you keep your job.
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#26 Aug 10 2010 at 4:18 PM Rating: Default
Sir Xsarus wrote:
Usually the result of the tedious work is that you keep your job.
Cool, sounds like a good enough reason to do it for me.
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