I'm mostly a new rogue (Armory Link), but not a new player. I have priest, mage, warlock, paladin, and druid characters and have had at least moderate PvP experience with each. I'm working on getting to level 29 and building up some very nice PvP gear so that I can stay there for a while. With that said, I have a few questions and would like a build critique.
To begin with, I'm specced Sub main, mostly because I enjoy the playstyle. I get the most enjoyment out of sneaking around and striking at opportune times. I also really like the stealth buffs, the stealth attack buffs, the stat bonuses, and Premed/Prep out of the tree. These are my proposed talents for levels 29, 39 + 70:
Level 29: I enjoy hard strikes from stealth on wounded targets, and I also have a friend who'll be playing with me often, and she's similarly specced. By myself, this makes sap very useable, keeps me moving a little faster, and makes ambush hit harder, as well as buffing backstab for all the other times where I have to cheap shot to get an opening hit off. With her help, one of us can cheap shot and backstab, while the other can land ambush and a backstab, and pretty much anything should fall right away or soon after.
Level 39: I finished up with Assassination, and dropped the rest into Sub to buff stealth some more and get Premed. Put a point into Elusiveness because I adore Vanish; I like slipping in for easy kills and getting out without drawing too much aggro. Also, Hunters are my bane at this point, and Vanish drops their Mark. Questions: Would Initiative and MoD at 2 points be more helpful here than the straight 5 in MoD? Should I drop MoD to 1 point and max Elusiveness?
Level 70: I'll pick up some helpful talents in Combat (Imp Gouge, Imp SS, Precision and Imp Sprint) and then head down to Shadowstep in Sub. I'm putting so many points into Sub already that I can't bring myself to pass up Deadliness, Premed and Sinister Calling. By that point, Shadowstep is only 1 more point and looks fun. Questions: Would Endurance be more helpful than Imp Sprint? Would Serrated Blades be more helpful than Master of Subtlety (which actually seems a little weak for the investment)? Should I drop a point from MoD or MoS into Ghostly Strike?
Moving on to a few other questions...
Is it difficult to time saps after level 40 and people grab mounts and epic mounts?
With my build, would it still be better it open with Garrote and finish with Rupture on Mail targets? Plate targets? Also, is Expose Armor more or less helpful than Rupture?
Against other rogues, should I finish with Rupture so that I can Vanish (and hopefully reopen) and they cannot? Or should I Eviscerate or Kidney Shot/Backstab to kill them as quickly as possible? With my build, against a full health rogue, would you open with Ambush (or CS/BS if needed) or would you Garrote to keep them out of stealth?
In PvP is dual crippling poisons helpful at all (it's what I've been using, to keep victims, especially runners, in BS range)? Should I be using DoT poison or mind-numbing at all (from my experience, most casters avoid long cast heals anyway)?
Thanks for all the help and advice. ^^
Edited, May 29th 2007 3:29am by lilyophelia
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A straight 5 in MoD is VERY handy, you'll near-enough never be spotted even by players 1-2 levels over you.
2/2 Improved Sprint is as GREAT talent for PvP, and synergises well with Endurance. It's essentially a Gnome's Racial with a pretty nice speed boost thrown in. I say get them both, and drop something else (Improved Backstab, perhaps, as 5 seconds of Gouge is enough to restealth), but if you must take one get Improved Sprint.
2/2 Improved Sprint is as GREAT talent for PvP, and synergises well with Endurance. It's essentially a Gnome's Racial with a pretty nice speed boost thrown in. I say get them both, and drop something else (Improved Backstab, perhaps, as 5 seconds of Gouge is enough to restealth), but if you must take one get Improved Sprint.
Lily,
I don't want to impose my views if you're sure about your builds and I feel bad posting this since you haven't asked about it specifically, but are you SURE about those sub builds?
To me you're missing a lot of crucial talents... I won't go into details because I'm not even sure you want criticism on that, but if you do, I suggest you read some of the posts on this forum that will address those issues (appart from Initiative (great talent) and Premeditation in your 70 build, you've got nothing to generate CPs... it's a shame! Also not very effective energy-wise). For instance, in your 39 build: ASSASS: Ruthlessness and Relentless Strkes would help, COMBAT: aren't you mainly using SS (since you don't have Mutilate yet and also haven't chosen Hemo?) If so, why not take Improved SS... SUB heavy focus on stealth (can't harm but not top priority for me... what the point in being sneaky if you're powerless?) 3/3 Initiative would be good, if you like Elusiveness (not bad a talent), go 2/2... Prep is good).
Not sure it would be optimal but if you want to stay super sneaky, I'd rather go for a hemo build like this which would be better to generate CPs... maybe other can comment on that and give you better tips but I'm pretty sure your build isn't optimal:
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=fhfZZxMe0Mhoo
nostra
Edited, May 29th 2007 3:04pm by nostraaa
I don't want to impose my views if you're sure about your builds and I feel bad posting this since you haven't asked about it specifically, but are you SURE about those sub builds?
To me you're missing a lot of crucial talents... I won't go into details because I'm not even sure you want criticism on that, but if you do, I suggest you read some of the posts on this forum that will address those issues (appart from Initiative (great talent) and Premeditation in your 70 build, you've got nothing to generate CPs... it's a shame! Also not very effective energy-wise). For instance, in your 39 build: ASSASS: Ruthlessness and Relentless Strkes would help, COMBAT: aren't you mainly using SS (since you don't have Mutilate yet and also haven't chosen Hemo?) If so, why not take Improved SS... SUB heavy focus on stealth (can't harm but not top priority for me... what the point in being sneaky if you're powerless?) 3/3 Initiative would be good, if you like Elusiveness (not bad a talent), go 2/2... Prep is good).
Not sure it would be optimal but if you want to stay super sneaky, I'd rather go for a hemo build like this which would be better to generate CPs... maybe other can comment on that and give you better tips but I'm pretty sure your build isn't optimal:
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=fhfZZxMe0Mhoo
nostra
Edited, May 29th 2007 3:04pm by nostraaa
ecirphsoj wrote:
You know, I was not going to grab Imp Backstab at first, but in so many fights I have trouble getting off ambush on in-combat targets. If I restealth (and that requires 1v1 PvP) I still can't get the ambush in unless they stop to cast/heal or if they go out of combat and I can get a sap on them. Not to mention that many opponents have some form of AoE to knock you back out while you try to reopen.
I went into Assasination specifically because I could open with Cheap Shot and then get at least one crit backstab in (or more, depending on how quick they are). Also, the Cheap Shot helps everyone else on that target because they don't move for 4 seconds. Are there m/any ways for other classes to break stuns?
nostraa wrote:
You know, I really looked at the talent trees and looked through the guides, and I've heard people say that Shadowstep isn't really very amazing, but I have the most fun stealthing in for a kill. I like sneaking up and finishing off a half-health target, or dropping/harassing a healer who's behind a wall of melee characters. That's absolutely more fun to me than going head on with another class; in fact, I'd rather vanish and run off to find another target (or re-open) than duke it out up front with a warrior, paly, or another thief, for example.
I don't want to physically dominate, just kill specific people off when they're being too helpful to their team (healer/lock/another rogue) or when they're in danger of a close win against an ally. There are times when I wait for rogues to sap our healers so that I can blow perception, sap the enemy rogue, and either open on them or let the rest of the team take them.
In big groups, after I open on a sure-kill, I get out of sight so I can re-stealth and re-open.
When I get Kidney shots (post 30), I even imagine opening with cheap-shot (2-3 CPs), hitting a backstab or vanish/ambush (1-2 CPs), and then hitting them with Kidney Shots.
But I'd rather not sacrifice that really pretty, spikey, burst damage for general melee damage. I'd rather get away from combat alive, bandage, and head back in stealthed.
If there is something I could do differently in subtlety that would be more helpful, I'd love to hear it. If you think that the +10 AP and +15% Agi aren't worth heading deep into Sub, I'd like to know that too; I could live without Shadowstep, I'm sure, but I like the way those two talents sound, and if I go 40 pts into Sub, I can see not grabbing Shadowstep.
In any case, I'll look over those posts again. If you want to mention what you think I'm missing, I'd love to know, so that I can compare them a bit. Thanks a bunch to both of you! ^^
Quote:
I'd say get them both, and drop something else (Improved Backstab, perhaps, as 5 seconds of Gouge is enough to restealth), but if you must take one get Improved Sprint.
You know, I was not going to grab Imp Backstab at first, but in so many fights I have trouble getting off ambush on in-combat targets. If I restealth (and that requires 1v1 PvP) I still can't get the ambush in unless they stop to cast/heal or if they go out of combat and I can get a sap on them. Not to mention that many opponents have some form of AoE to knock you back out while you try to reopen.
I went into Assasination specifically because I could open with Cheap Shot and then get at least one crit backstab in (or more, depending on how quick they are). Also, the Cheap Shot helps everyone else on that target because they don't move for 4 seconds. Are there m/any ways for other classes to break stuns?
nostraa wrote:
Quote:
Lily,
I don't want to impose my views if you're sure about your builds and I feel bad posting this since you haven't asked about it specifically, but are you SURE about those sub builds?
To me you're missing a lot of crucial talents... I won't go into details because I'm not even sure you want criticism on that, but if you do, I suggest you read some of the posts on this forum that will address those issues (appart from Initiative (great talent) and Premeditation in your 70 build, you've got nothing to generate CPs... it's a shame! Also not very effective energy-wise).
I don't want to impose my views if you're sure about your builds and I feel bad posting this since you haven't asked about it specifically, but are you SURE about those sub builds?
To me you're missing a lot of crucial talents... I won't go into details because I'm not even sure you want criticism on that, but if you do, I suggest you read some of the posts on this forum that will address those issues (appart from Initiative (great talent) and Premeditation in your 70 build, you've got nothing to generate CPs... it's a shame! Also not very effective energy-wise).
You know, I really looked at the talent trees and looked through the guides, and I've heard people say that Shadowstep isn't really very amazing, but I have the most fun stealthing in for a kill. I like sneaking up and finishing off a half-health target, or dropping/harassing a healer who's behind a wall of melee characters. That's absolutely more fun to me than going head on with another class; in fact, I'd rather vanish and run off to find another target (or re-open) than duke it out up front with a warrior, paly, or another thief, for example.
I don't want to physically dominate, just kill specific people off when they're being too helpful to their team (healer/lock/another rogue) or when they're in danger of a close win against an ally. There are times when I wait for rogues to sap our healers so that I can blow perception, sap the enemy rogue, and either open on them or let the rest of the team take them.
In big groups, after I open on a sure-kill, I get out of sight so I can re-stealth and re-open.
When I get Kidney shots (post 30), I even imagine opening with cheap-shot (2-3 CPs), hitting a backstab or vanish/ambush (1-2 CPs), and then hitting them with Kidney Shots.
But I'd rather not sacrifice that really pretty, spikey, burst damage for general melee damage. I'd rather get away from combat alive, bandage, and head back in stealthed.
If there is something I could do differently in subtlety that would be more helpful, I'd love to hear it. If you think that the +10 AP and +15% Agi aren't worth heading deep into Sub, I'd like to know that too; I could live without Shadowstep, I'm sure, but I like the way those two talents sound, and if I go 40 pts into Sub, I can see not grabbing Shadowstep.
In any case, I'll look over those posts again. If you want to mention what you think I'm missing, I'd love to know, so that I can compare them a bit. Thanks a bunch to both of you! ^^
To nostraaa, did you mean a build that looked something like this: Level 70, 30/0/31 build
That way I could I pull off finishers (Kidney Shots or Cold Blood Eviscerates) much faster, and get limited stuns? Something like Premed (2), Ambush (3) (or Premed, Cheap Shot), Kidney Shots (5 CPs), +25 E, +1 CP (60% of the time), gouge and so on?
If this is what you're suggesting, is it a lot more powerful than the +15% Agi, Shadowstep, Master of Subtlety, Imp Gouge, Imp Sinister Strike, +5% hit, Imp Sprint, and 3.5 min Evasion/Sprint Timers?
Also, would you drop 4% attack power in Deadliness (or 2 talent points elsewhere) for Dirty Deeds? With so much CP generation, energy would be the big limiting factor, and I would imagine that more energy would be better.
I kind of like the idea of this, if this is what you meant, because I would open a little weaker in dps, but there would be enough that I could keep a target from running away and probably finish them off. Also, I wouldn't lose the sub utility talents (just the sprint ones). Is this what you were referring to?
Edited, May 29th 2007 7:27am by lilyophelia
That way I could I pull off finishers (Kidney Shots or Cold Blood Eviscerates) much faster, and get limited stuns? Something like Premed (2), Ambush (3) (or Premed, Cheap Shot), Kidney Shots (5 CPs), +25 E, +1 CP (60% of the time), gouge and so on?
If this is what you're suggesting, is it a lot more powerful than the +15% Agi, Shadowstep, Master of Subtlety, Imp Gouge, Imp Sinister Strike, +5% hit, Imp Sprint, and 3.5 min Evasion/Sprint Timers?
Also, would you drop 4% attack power in Deadliness (or 2 talent points elsewhere) for Dirty Deeds? With so much CP generation, energy would be the big limiting factor, and I would imagine that more energy would be better.
I kind of like the idea of this, if this is what you meant, because I would open a little weaker in dps, but there would be enough that I could keep a target from running away and probably finish them off. Also, I wouldn't lose the sub utility talents (just the sprint ones). Is this what you were referring to?
Edited, May 29th 2007 7:27am by lilyophelia
Lily,
Here's my fave pvp build for lvl 70. No other spec has been as much fun to play and it sounds like your preferred play style is similar to mine.
http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/rogue/talents.html?0050030000000000000003200000000000000000000000502530332321203501251
High opening damage plus pretty good stun-lock ability.
Have fun,
Melechesh - Bronzebeard
Edited, May 29th 2007 10:33am by rfecteau
Edited, May 29th 2007 10:38am by rfecteau
Here's my fave pvp build for lvl 70. No other spec has been as much fun to play and it sounds like your preferred play style is similar to mine.
http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/rogue/talents.html?0050030000000000000003200000000000000000000000502530332321203501251
High opening damage plus pretty good stun-lock ability.
Have fun,
Melechesh - Bronzebeard
Edited, May 29th 2007 10:33am by rfecteau
Edited, May 29th 2007 10:38am by rfecteau
Sure, if you want to finish-off half dead targets (especially soft ones), then fine.
I did mention quite a few talents which I think you'll be missing, just after the part which you quote in your reply. In addition, as for ASSASS, let me say that you'll probably miss Improved Eviscerate if you want to finish of targets fast (like CS/Ambush, BS and evisc). And, even if you don't intend your fights to last very long, Initiative is pretty much a must in my eyes.
Anyway, you seem to have a play-style which is too different from mine so I'll just let you do your own experiments and twink your build accordingly.
nostra
I did mention quite a few talents which I think you'll be missing, just after the part which you quote in your reply. In addition, as for ASSASS, let me say that you'll probably miss Improved Eviscerate if you want to finish of targets fast (like CS/Ambush, BS and evisc). And, even if you don't intend your fights to last very long, Initiative is pretty much a must in my eyes.
Anyway, you seem to have a play-style which is too different from mine so I'll just let you do your own experiments and twink your build accordingly.
nostra
Okay, nostraa, I looked at the talents and worked out an assass/sub build that ends with seal fate and premeditation. It gives up some of the raw damage bonuses when striking from stealth, but I can understand that I need to actually be able to kill things solo when I'm not in a PvP group. With this build, I still stealth/sap just as well, but I have a lot better CP point generation (Initiative, Ruthlessness, Premed and Seal Fate with high crit chances on Ambush and Backstab, which are my preferred attacks).
Also, my energy costs are down now, using Hemo as my primary melee attack (35 energy vs. 45 Sinister Strike). I'm not really in love with Hemo, but it's the only alternative I had keeping Premed and Seal Fate; with a good crit chance, it might even outperform Mutilate for CP generation, because on double-crits, I'd get 4 CP for 70 energy.Relentless Strikes keeps me going after a combo, and Quick Recovery cuts down on lost energy from missed finishing moves. I also picked up Dirty Deeds so that I can open Cheap Shot to Backstab and still have energy coming in to use after (could wait 1-2 ticks, hit Kidney Shots and have plenty of energy for another BS and then a Hemo).
Also, this build actually makes backstab stronger than the sub build does; that's helpful because I find that I use BS much more than Ambush anyway (which isn't even always a viable opener). Serrated Blades gives a little more DPS and the bonus to rupture is nice for high armor targets.
I get a damage boost to Eviscerate for ending battles, and I also get Cold Blood with a Prep reset, which makes Eviscerate even stronger. When I'm not finishing someone off, I'll be using Kidney Shots to stun (and enable backstabs) and then Imp Kidney Shots helps with higher white damage and a stronger yellow attacks...it's the equivalent of Master of Subtlety in the sub tree, really, but on every Kidney Shots instead; also nice for difficult to kill targets who are being focus-fired because the bonus is passed on to everyone else.
Again, I also get the utility of Elusiveness, the Stealth and Sap talents, and Prep.
With this build I'm losing some combat bufs, and +10% AP and +15% Agi from my other build, mostly.
Level 29
Level 39
Level 70
Thanks a bunch for your advice. Some things only become apparent with experience, and I didn't really understand how import CP generation and energy efficiency were until you brought it to my attention. It's something I would have had to figure out the hard way in my other build. Thanks again!
Also, my energy costs are down now, using Hemo as my primary melee attack (35 energy vs. 45 Sinister Strike). I'm not really in love with Hemo, but it's the only alternative I had keeping Premed and Seal Fate; with a good crit chance, it might even outperform Mutilate for CP generation, because on double-crits, I'd get 4 CP for 70 energy.Relentless Strikes keeps me going after a combo, and Quick Recovery cuts down on lost energy from missed finishing moves. I also picked up Dirty Deeds so that I can open Cheap Shot to Backstab and still have energy coming in to use after (could wait 1-2 ticks, hit Kidney Shots and have plenty of energy for another BS and then a Hemo).
Also, this build actually makes backstab stronger than the sub build does; that's helpful because I find that I use BS much more than Ambush anyway (which isn't even always a viable opener). Serrated Blades gives a little more DPS and the bonus to rupture is nice for high armor targets.
I get a damage boost to Eviscerate for ending battles, and I also get Cold Blood with a Prep reset, which makes Eviscerate even stronger. When I'm not finishing someone off, I'll be using Kidney Shots to stun (and enable backstabs) and then Imp Kidney Shots helps with higher white damage and a stronger yellow attacks...it's the equivalent of Master of Subtlety in the sub tree, really, but on every Kidney Shots instead; also nice for difficult to kill targets who are being focus-fired because the bonus is passed on to everyone else.
Again, I also get the utility of Elusiveness, the Stealth and Sap talents, and Prep.
With this build I'm losing some combat bufs, and +10% AP and +15% Agi from my other build, mostly.
Level 29
Level 39
Level 70
Thanks a bunch for your advice. Some things only become apparent with experience, and I didn't really understand how import CP generation and energy efficiency were until you brought it to my attention. It's something I would have had to figure out the hard way in my other build. Thanks again!
You need Master of Sub in your 70 build.
On a side-note, if you choose to not do Shadowstep, you can go into Assassination and have Cold Blood instead.
I like that idea.
Just throwin' this build out there...
http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/rogue/talents.html?3053031050001000000000000000000000000000000004502030302301213501050
I personally don't see the NEED to go that far into Subtlety though, and miss out on all of the great benefits that a Assassination spec has to offer.
I'd say the only thing I wish could be attainable in a Mutilate build is being able to have 2/2 Dirty Deeds for better energy use. As it stands though, with a Mutilate build, you can easily have 90 energy to work with when you actually use your first Mutilate after Cheap Shot. You have to time the energy regeneration right, which isn't hard.
Cheap Shot >> Mutilate >> Kidney Shot >> Mutilate >> Gouge >> Mutilate >> Dead.
:]
I like that idea.
Just throwin' this build out there...
http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/rogue/talents.html?3053031050001000000000000000000000000000000004502030302301213501050
I personally don't see the NEED to go that far into Subtlety though, and miss out on all of the great benefits that a Assassination spec has to offer.
I'd say the only thing I wish could be attainable in a Mutilate build is being able to have 2/2 Dirty Deeds for better energy use. As it stands though, with a Mutilate build, you can easily have 90 energy to work with when you actually use your first Mutilate after Cheap Shot. You have to time the energy regeneration right, which isn't hard.
Cheap Shot >> Mutilate >> Kidney Shot >> Mutilate >> Gouge >> Mutilate >> Dead.
:]
I didn't know people even wasted points in Imp Ambush anymore.
I can see it with a 30/0/31 spec, but otherwise it's pretty worthless. CS is almost always a better opener.
And when CS isn't a better opener, Garrote is better for the bonus damage from Serrated Blades and Opportunity.
I can see it with a 30/0/31 spec, but otherwise it's pretty worthless. CS is almost always a better opener.
And when CS isn't a better opener, Garrote is better for the bonus damage from Serrated Blades and Opportunity.
Theophany the Sly Scholar wrote:
*nods* On moving targets I usually open with cheap shot for the stun, but I really like ambush for casters that don't know how to keep moving, especially when they're casting something 3 seconds or longer; a channeled spell is my favourite. I can usually get the ambush off quite easily, and they often won't realize what's happening right away so I can fit a kick in there as well, to knock out some of their casting.
I always Garrote warriors or paladins, unless the stun seems more helpful, to protect a caster or healer, for example.
Also, I might play in a less traditional way. I tend to take my time getting into battle, going after targets who are at 50% or lower health. Most of the time, I can ambush/backstab and kill them, and just run off for a handful of seconds to restealth without ever being seen. In BGs currently, I can kill one target and then open on another in less than ten seconds (usually with a stun). I also heavily abuse vanish (especially against hunter marks, although I rarely get marked). I also avoid confrontations with warriors and palys unless its to stun them to help others (squishy clothies) finish them off.
Theophany, if you had a choice between taking Deadliness, Premed, and Sinister Calling or Seal Fate, what would you choose? I'm actually thinking of going 31/5/26 and skipping out on premed to use Imp SS and Imp Gouge. Would this be a mistake over going 31/0/30?
Yoshii, I'm actually most attracted to Seal Fate in Assasination, and I don't know if I could/would give it up for the +15% Agi. I'm so confused now, actually! I thought I had everything figured out and now...there are a billion options that appeal to me in different ways. But yes, I think I've leaned away from Shadowstep; I don't have a problem getting behind my targets as it is.
Quote:
I didn't know people even wasted points in Imp Ambush anymore.
I can see it with a 30/0/31 spec, but otherwise it's pretty worthless. CS is almost always a better opener.
And when CS isn't a better opener, Garrote is better for the bonus damage from Serrated Blades and Opportunity
I can see it with a 30/0/31 spec, but otherwise it's pretty worthless. CS is almost always a better opener.
And when CS isn't a better opener, Garrote is better for the bonus damage from Serrated Blades and Opportunity
*nods* On moving targets I usually open with cheap shot for the stun, but I really like ambush for casters that don't know how to keep moving, especially when they're casting something 3 seconds or longer; a channeled spell is my favourite. I can usually get the ambush off quite easily, and they often won't realize what's happening right away so I can fit a kick in there as well, to knock out some of their casting.
I always Garrote warriors or paladins, unless the stun seems more helpful, to protect a caster or healer, for example.
Also, I might play in a less traditional way. I tend to take my time getting into battle, going after targets who are at 50% or lower health. Most of the time, I can ambush/backstab and kill them, and just run off for a handful of seconds to restealth without ever being seen. In BGs currently, I can kill one target and then open on another in less than ten seconds (usually with a stun). I also heavily abuse vanish (especially against hunter marks, although I rarely get marked). I also avoid confrontations with warriors and palys unless its to stun them to help others (squishy clothies) finish them off.
Theophany, if you had a choice between taking Deadliness, Premed, and Sinister Calling or Seal Fate, what would you choose? I'm actually thinking of going 31/5/26 and skipping out on premed to use Imp SS and Imp Gouge. Would this be a mistake over going 31/0/30?
Yoshii, I'm actually most attracted to Seal Fate in Assasination, and I don't know if I could/would give it up for the +15% Agi. I'm so confused now, actually! I thought I had everything figured out and now...there are a billion options that appeal to me in different ways. But yes, I think I've leaned away from Shadowstep; I don't have a problem getting behind my targets as it is.
lilyophelia wrote:
Theophany, if you had a choice between taking Deadliness, Premed, and Sinister Calling or Seal Fate, what would you choose? I'm actually thinking of going 31/5/26 and skipping out on premed to use Imp SS and Imp Gouge. Would this be a mistake over going 31/0/30?
Not a mistake, per se, but IMO the talents you'd be missing out on in Sub are much better for PvP than Imp SS and Imp Gouge. Of course for PvP, it's your own preference, but I personally like Hemo for PvP over anything else if I'm not using daggers.
I personally still do instances (in fact, my primary focus is PvE), so I find that I need Deadliness and Sinsiter Calling in order to keep up. Of course if you're looking at just PvP, it's a different story.
So I'm sure you've all noticed the recent change, that sap no longer breaks stealth, so would imp ambush be more favorable now? I've been using it and seems to work nicely, especially when going against two mobs (PvE of course in this example). Sap one and stillg et to ambush the other, finish him off usually before the sap wears off and >>>BS. Probably better strategies you guys know of, but I'm new........
Lily,
Shadowstep isn't about helping to get behind your target, it's all about the +20% damage. Too hard for me to pass up for pvp.
Shadowstep isn't about helping to get behind your target, it's all about the +20% damage. Too hard for me to pass up for pvp.
rfecteau wrote:
Lily,
Shadowstep isn't about helping to get behind your target, it's all about the +20% damage. Too hard for me to pass up for pvp.
Shadowstep isn't about helping to get behind your target, it's all about the +20% damage. Too hard for me to pass up for pvp.
20% damage isn't worth more than Cold Blood.
1 shadowstep every 15s >> 1 cold blood every 3 mins or 1.5 mins. Especially since you probably would crit on the cold blood hit ~25% of the time anyway without using cold blood.
Edited, Jun 1st 2007 8:12am by rfecteau
Edited, Jun 1st 2007 8:13am by rfecteau
Edited, Jun 1st 2007 8:12am by rfecteau
Edited, Jun 1st 2007 8:13am by rfecteau
Okay, so I'm absolutely decided on this build and I refuse to change my mind unless a talent revision (lots of changes) comes out. I want to be a backstab/ambush-themed rogue, but I also don't want to be completely useless once I pop out of stealth. The thoughts and ideas in this thread completely helped me out a lot, and made me really look at each choice in total disregard for my own bias (which would have been 41pts Sub because it sounds neat).
I'm going 30/3/28
I completely dropped Imp Ambush after some pondering on Theophany's comments. I agree that Cheap Shot is almost always a better opener than Ambush anyway, especially with my talents. My argument was that I could Ambush -> Kick a caster, but that was incredibly silly; Cheap Shot is easier to land and gives the equivalent of a 4 second silence effect! Also gives me a chance to land crippling and mind-numbing (or wounding) poisons and a slightly less hard Backstab with more guaranteed CP generation.
I pretty much intend to open with Cheap Shot -> Backstab (35% crit before +agi/+crit) unless my target screams for Garrote. Cheap Shot is very easy to land, and it gives me 4 seconds of stun for 40 energy (and 2 CPs, with a 75% chance of 3 CPs). Then I'd go Backstab for 60 energy (and 1 CP, with a crit chance of 2 CPs). At the end of the opener I'd have guaranteed (a miss could throw that off) Backstab damage with some bonuses (+20% Opportunity, +30% crit multiplier), and at least 3 CPs (with two very good shots a 4-5 CPs).
At that point I could either 5pt Kidney Shot (if everything goes through), try to get in front for a gouge to buy time to KS (5.5 sec talented and +1 CP for 45 energy, or base crit + 5% for 2 CPs), or Hemo for a cheap CP (base crit + 5% malice for 2 CPs).
Eventually I'd hit Kidney Shots for 0 energy (because of Relentless Strikes), with a 60% chance of dropping back to 1 CP (Ruthlessness), Backstab (with an additional +9% damage from Imp KS), get some white damage and land my poisons, and so on.
These talents give me plenty of energy and lots and lots of CPs, which allow for either plenty of stuns or quick (probably cold blooded) Eviscerates. Against high armor targets I even get cheaper, more powerful Garrotes (40 Energy from Dirty Deeds, +20% dmg from Opportunity), and scarier Ruptures (+30% dmg from Serrated Blades).
I was a little unsure going for Hemo with daggers, because Sinister Strike is supposed to be so much better with faster weapons, but I figured that I could go Hemo -> Sinister Strike for the same price as two Imp Sinister Strikes (80 Energy total) at only half the talent points. If used once every 15 seconds, or on a target that I have help on, Hemo actually makes up some of the damage against an equivalent SS attack. I could also just use Hemo constantly if I decided that the CPs were more important than the direct damage (against a Warrior, for example) so that I could land those Ruptures (+30% damage) more often. Hemo was also the only way I would spend the talent point in Serrated Blades, which looks pretty, but would have been passed over if I went Improved SS.
Also, I have great utility! Master of Deception and Camouflage (I personally love the talent) make me sneakier and faster, and help me to get back to stealth that much faster (after a Gouge, or running off for a few seconds if I haven't been targeted yet).
Elusiveness means that I can dissappear pretty much whenever I'd like as long as I don't have a DoT on me; if I do, I Sprint away until I drop the DoTs. The counter for this is if my opponents try to slow/freeze me, and even then I can vanish if they're not right on top of their DoTs. I love getting away with 10% health! I get five out of ten enemy members to come searching for me (while I'm long gone) while my team tears into them. Of course, if they ignore me, it's a quick jaunt back over to tear into another squishy who's unfairly disrupting the battle (those heals on enemy targets really are very inconsiderate).
I also get Blind on a 90 second timer. And after I blow all of my timers I can pop Preparation and get them all back! Prep is the biggest reason why I didn't go mutilate; I really like to blow cooldowns, and with Prep I can do so guilt-free.
As far as my overall theme goes, I still get to come out of stealth strong (although not as strong as with Shadowstep and deep Sub) and go back into stealth ASAP afterwards; that's what I wanted to do as a rogue. But now I have awesome CP generation, and very good, efficient energy use. If I have to fight out in the open, I can; I avoid all the times where my opener might drop my target to 40-50% health but I can't finish the job fast enough to outpace a healer or incoming damage.
The only change I plan to make to this build is at level 70, where I will move 1 talent point out of Dirty Deeds and into Vigor. I think Vigor kind of trumps one of the points in Dirty Deeds because I'll almost always be full energy when I land a Cheap Shot or Garrote anyway, which results in the same energy use. For all the times where I don''t Cheap Shot or Garrote, I get +10 energy.
If anyone has any other comments, I'd love to hear them. I really looked at all of the different talent choices open to me and I really think this is the strongest possible build for me. I knew that I really wanted the four Tier 1 and Tier 2 Sub talents that I chose. I had to give up Premed because I felt that Seal Fate was essential and Imp Gouge was more helpful. I had to give up Mutilate because I wanted Prep more. I'd like to have gone Imp SS, but Hemo was already in Sub, costs less energy and came with Serrated Blades attached. I'm sad that I could grab Precision and Imp Sprint, but I'll live with it!
Thank you very much for all of your collective, very helpful advice. I am very grateful.
I'm going 30/3/28
I completely dropped Imp Ambush after some pondering on Theophany's comments. I agree that Cheap Shot is almost always a better opener than Ambush anyway, especially with my talents. My argument was that I could Ambush -> Kick a caster, but that was incredibly silly; Cheap Shot is easier to land and gives the equivalent of a 4 second silence effect! Also gives me a chance to land crippling and mind-numbing (or wounding) poisons and a slightly less hard Backstab with more guaranteed CP generation.
I pretty much intend to open with Cheap Shot -> Backstab (35% crit before +agi/+crit) unless my target screams for Garrote. Cheap Shot is very easy to land, and it gives me 4 seconds of stun for 40 energy (and 2 CPs, with a 75% chance of 3 CPs). Then I'd go Backstab for 60 energy (and 1 CP, with a crit chance of 2 CPs). At the end of the opener I'd have guaranteed (a miss could throw that off) Backstab damage with some bonuses (+20% Opportunity, +30% crit multiplier), and at least 3 CPs (with two very good shots a 4-5 CPs).
At that point I could either 5pt Kidney Shot (if everything goes through), try to get in front for a gouge to buy time to KS (5.5 sec talented and +1 CP for 45 energy, or base crit + 5% for 2 CPs), or Hemo for a cheap CP (base crit + 5% malice for 2 CPs).
Eventually I'd hit Kidney Shots for 0 energy (because of Relentless Strikes), with a 60% chance of dropping back to 1 CP (Ruthlessness), Backstab (with an additional +9% damage from Imp KS), get some white damage and land my poisons, and so on.
These talents give me plenty of energy and lots and lots of CPs, which allow for either plenty of stuns or quick (probably cold blooded) Eviscerates. Against high armor targets I even get cheaper, more powerful Garrotes (40 Energy from Dirty Deeds, +20% dmg from Opportunity), and scarier Ruptures (+30% dmg from Serrated Blades).
I was a little unsure going for Hemo with daggers, because Sinister Strike is supposed to be so much better with faster weapons, but I figured that I could go Hemo -> Sinister Strike for the same price as two Imp Sinister Strikes (80 Energy total) at only half the talent points. If used once every 15 seconds, or on a target that I have help on, Hemo actually makes up some of the damage against an equivalent SS attack. I could also just use Hemo constantly if I decided that the CPs were more important than the direct damage (against a Warrior, for example) so that I could land those Ruptures (+30% damage) more often. Hemo was also the only way I would spend the talent point in Serrated Blades, which looks pretty, but would have been passed over if I went Improved SS.
Also, I have great utility! Master of Deception and Camouflage (I personally love the talent) make me sneakier and faster, and help me to get back to stealth that much faster (after a Gouge, or running off for a few seconds if I haven't been targeted yet).
Elusiveness means that I can dissappear pretty much whenever I'd like as long as I don't have a DoT on me; if I do, I Sprint away until I drop the DoTs. The counter for this is if my opponents try to slow/freeze me, and even then I can vanish if they're not right on top of their DoTs. I love getting away with 10% health! I get five out of ten enemy members to come searching for me (while I'm long gone) while my team tears into them. Of course, if they ignore me, it's a quick jaunt back over to tear into another squishy who's unfairly disrupting the battle (those heals on enemy targets really are very inconsiderate).
I also get Blind on a 90 second timer. And after I blow all of my timers I can pop Preparation and get them all back! Prep is the biggest reason why I didn't go mutilate; I really like to blow cooldowns, and with Prep I can do so guilt-free.
As far as my overall theme goes, I still get to come out of stealth strong (although not as strong as with Shadowstep and deep Sub) and go back into stealth ASAP afterwards; that's what I wanted to do as a rogue. But now I have awesome CP generation, and very good, efficient energy use. If I have to fight out in the open, I can; I avoid all the times where my opener might drop my target to 40-50% health but I can't finish the job fast enough to outpace a healer or incoming damage.
The only change I plan to make to this build is at level 70, where I will move 1 talent point out of Dirty Deeds and into Vigor. I think Vigor kind of trumps one of the points in Dirty Deeds because I'll almost always be full energy when I land a Cheap Shot or Garrote anyway, which results in the same energy use. For all the times where I don''t Cheap Shot or Garrote, I get +10 energy.
If anyone has any other comments, I'd love to hear them. I really looked at all of the different talent choices open to me and I really think this is the strongest possible build for me. I knew that I really wanted the four Tier 1 and Tier 2 Sub talents that I chose. I had to give up Premed because I felt that Seal Fate was essential and Imp Gouge was more helpful. I had to give up Mutilate because I wanted Prep more. I'd like to have gone Imp SS, but Hemo was already in Sub, costs less energy and came with Serrated Blades attached. I'm sad that I could grab Precision and Imp Sprint, but I'll live with it!
Thank you very much for all of your collective, very helpful advice. I am very grateful.
Teklabz wrote:
In PvE, I almost always started Distract -> Ambush for challenging mobs. Ambush can hit very hard on a very likely crit (talented).
That recently changed for me, because there were plenty of times where I was outpacing my distract timer and so I just started giving Cheap Shot a try as my opener. Cheap Shot gets you to Eviscerate or Slice-and-Dice faster (for multiple mobs) because it gives one extra combo point over Ambush (unless you also have Seal Fate, and even then that is not guaranteed). Also, with Cheap Shot you can hit them from any direction, where you have to be positioned for an Ambush.
As far as your actual question goes, if you're fighting two difficult mobs, you have two options that are better than what you suggested. First, you can sap one and Cheap Shot -> Backstab the other; if you kill it quick enough, you can just restealth before the other comes out of the sap (I'm pretty sure on this one, but I haaven't actually tested it). The other option is to sap one, initiate combat with the other (however you'd like, even with Ambush) and then back away out of aggro range of the first mob. As long as you aren't around when the other mob comes out of stealth it won't even aggro you. You can reopen from stealth however you'd like on the other.
The actual point that Theophany makes is that for 3 talent points, Improved Ambush really, really fails to deliver. The almost guaranteed crit (+45%) is very pretty, but Improved Backstab has a very similar effect (30% crit, same +20% damage from Opportunity, +30% crit multiplier via Lethality that does not ever apply to Ambush). In addition, Cheap Shot is so much faster and easier to land (to the point where I can grind without even using distract nowadays). The extra CPs are just beautiful and I would almost venture a guess that talented Ambush might not have that much on a talented Backstab + 1/5th of an Eviscerate (because you get the extra combo point).
Another big point is you only get to use Ambush once per stealth in PvE or PvP. Backstab can be used in both cases out of stealth (and really from stealth, because it's kind of an extension of Cheap Shot during it's stun) as often as you'd like. If you're going to talent just one, go heavily into Backstab because it's so much more useful; by the time you do fully talent backstab (mostly with Opportunity, Imp Backstab and Lethality), Ambush seems kind of pale.
So 3 talent points are 3 talent points: there are a million things I want but can't afford, and I found a home for my 3 points in Imp Gouge. Imp Gouge lets you either slip back into stealth (with at least 4/5 Camouflage) to reopen, or *gasps* gives you a helpless backstab (your new specialty) target.
Edit: Typos
Edited, Jun 1st 2007 7:32am by lilyophelia
Quote:
So I'm sure you've all noticed the recent change, that sap no longer breaks stealth, so would imp ambush be more favorable now? I've been using it and seems to work nicely, especially when going against two mobs (PvE of course in this example). Sap one and stillg et to ambush the other, finish him off usually before the sap wears off and >>>BS. Probably better strategies you guys know of, but I'm new........
In PvE, I almost always started Distract -> Ambush for challenging mobs. Ambush can hit very hard on a very likely crit (talented).
That recently changed for me, because there were plenty of times where I was outpacing my distract timer and so I just started giving Cheap Shot a try as my opener. Cheap Shot gets you to Eviscerate or Slice-and-Dice faster (for multiple mobs) because it gives one extra combo point over Ambush (unless you also have Seal Fate, and even then that is not guaranteed). Also, with Cheap Shot you can hit them from any direction, where you have to be positioned for an Ambush.
As far as your actual question goes, if you're fighting two difficult mobs, you have two options that are better than what you suggested. First, you can sap one and Cheap Shot -> Backstab the other; if you kill it quick enough, you can just restealth before the other comes out of the sap (I'm pretty sure on this one, but I haaven't actually tested it). The other option is to sap one, initiate combat with the other (however you'd like, even with Ambush) and then back away out of aggro range of the first mob. As long as you aren't around when the other mob comes out of stealth it won't even aggro you. You can reopen from stealth however you'd like on the other.
The actual point that Theophany makes is that for 3 talent points, Improved Ambush really, really fails to deliver. The almost guaranteed crit (+45%) is very pretty, but Improved Backstab has a very similar effect (30% crit, same +20% damage from Opportunity, +30% crit multiplier via Lethality that does not ever apply to Ambush). In addition, Cheap Shot is so much faster and easier to land (to the point where I can grind without even using distract nowadays). The extra CPs are just beautiful and I would almost venture a guess that talented Ambush might not have that much on a talented Backstab + 1/5th of an Eviscerate (because you get the extra combo point).
Another big point is you only get to use Ambush once per stealth in PvE or PvP. Backstab can be used in both cases out of stealth (and really from stealth, because it's kind of an extension of Cheap Shot during it's stun) as often as you'd like. If you're going to talent just one, go heavily into Backstab because it's so much more useful; by the time you do fully talent backstab (mostly with Opportunity, Imp Backstab and Lethality), Ambush seems kind of pale.
So 3 talent points are 3 talent points: there are a million things I want but can't afford, and I found a home for my 3 points in Imp Gouge. Imp Gouge lets you either slip back into stealth (with at least 4/5 Camouflage) to reopen, or *gasps* gives you a helpless backstab (your new specialty) target.
Edit: Typos
Edited, Jun 1st 2007 7:32am by lilyophelia
rfecteau wrote:
I was originally going to do Shadowstep simply because it sounded cool, to be honest. But actually looking at it, I can't see that I agree with you in any way, shape or form.
To start, we're obviously talking about PvP because because in PvE against a difficult mob you would not restealth. In solo PvE play, you'd reset the combat and in group play you'd have to vanish, I believe, to be able to stealth again (at the very least you'd have to give up some number of seconds of white damage for sure). If you're talking about grinding easy mobs...that doesn't really interest me one way or another and wouldn't be a deciding factor in my talents.
So, for PvP. Shadowstep does give a nice damage boost and it's even nice for catching up to moving targets or for sneaking in past defenses to kill a turtled target; if nothing else, it's a time saver. But to say that it is better than cold blood on the basis of damage is absolutely silly.
First of all, you do not get the chance to use Shadowstep every 15 seconds! That's the cooldown on it, sure, but you do not always shadowstep, kill a target, get back into stealth and shadowstealth again in that amount of time. Any DoT, a hunter's mark, a resilient target, lack of targets, travel time, etc. throws that number off and makes it, on average, higher than 15s. Also, remember that, once used, the cooldown on Cold Blood is constantly counting down; 30 seconds of res time in a BG is 30 seconds closer to your next Coldblood, so you have to figure in how you spend all of your time before compare the timers on the two abilities.
Second, after your initial burst damage if you're close to killing a target (you would be closer with your starting damage boost) Cold Blood lets you do very heavy, guaranteed (in opposition to the would crit anyway arguement)burst damage with a Cold Blood Eviscerate. Not only that, but with Prep, if you need that damage right this instant, you can perform back-to-back (not counting building up CPs) Cold Blood Eviscerates.
Also, it's important to say that in PvP killing your target is much more important than doing steady, heavy damage and this is where burst damage is most powerful. If you shadowstep and get someone down to 10% life, and they bandage it all back right after (I sometimes sit and glare at people after they've killed me in a close fight, before I hit the res button) you have accomplished nothing! In that same close fight, Cold Blood is always on hand (think of it as an offensive, paly bubble) to give you a sudden, distinct and sometimes unsurmountable victory (unless you're fighting a paly -.- ).
In PvP, I feel that is so much stronger than the damage boost from Shadowstep! If I were going to argue Shadowsteps merits, it would be on the basis of a very respectable damage boost and extremely nice utility. When you need to get somewhere right this instant (to knock that healer out of the picture so your team can work uninterrupted), Shadowstep is what you want. But saying that it is more useful than Cold Blood on the basis of damage output, especially when you have Prep (which any heavy Sub build better always have), is very, very silly.
Just my point of view. ^^
Quote:
Shadowstep isn't about helping to get behind your target, it's all about the +20% damage. Too hard for me to pass up for pvp.
Quote:
1 shadowstep every 15s >> 1 cold blood every 3 mins or 1.5 mins. Especially since you probably would crit on the cold blood hit ~25% of the time anyway without using cold blood.
I was originally going to do Shadowstep simply because it sounded cool, to be honest. But actually looking at it, I can't see that I agree with you in any way, shape or form.
To start, we're obviously talking about PvP because because in PvE against a difficult mob you would not restealth. In solo PvE play, you'd reset the combat and in group play you'd have to vanish, I believe, to be able to stealth again (at the very least you'd have to give up some number of seconds of white damage for sure). If you're talking about grinding easy mobs...that doesn't really interest me one way or another and wouldn't be a deciding factor in my talents.
So, for PvP. Shadowstep does give a nice damage boost and it's even nice for catching up to moving targets or for sneaking in past defenses to kill a turtled target; if nothing else, it's a time saver. But to say that it is better than cold blood on the basis of damage is absolutely silly.
First of all, you do not get the chance to use Shadowstep every 15 seconds! That's the cooldown on it, sure, but you do not always shadowstep, kill a target, get back into stealth and shadowstealth again in that amount of time. Any DoT, a hunter's mark, a resilient target, lack of targets, travel time, etc. throws that number off and makes it, on average, higher than 15s. Also, remember that, once used, the cooldown on Cold Blood is constantly counting down; 30 seconds of res time in a BG is 30 seconds closer to your next Coldblood, so you have to figure in how you spend all of your time before compare the timers on the two abilities.
Second, after your initial burst damage if you're close to killing a target (you would be closer with your starting damage boost) Cold Blood lets you do very heavy, guaranteed (in opposition to the would crit anyway arguement)burst damage with a Cold Blood Eviscerate. Not only that, but with Prep, if you need that damage right this instant, you can perform back-to-back (not counting building up CPs) Cold Blood Eviscerates.
Also, it's important to say that in PvP killing your target is much more important than doing steady, heavy damage and this is where burst damage is most powerful. If you shadowstep and get someone down to 10% life, and they bandage it all back right after (I sometimes sit and glare at people after they've killed me in a close fight, before I hit the res button) you have accomplished nothing! In that same close fight, Cold Blood is always on hand (think of it as an offensive, paly bubble) to give you a sudden, distinct and sometimes unsurmountable victory (unless you're fighting a paly -.- ).
In PvP, I feel that is so much stronger than the damage boost from Shadowstep! If I were going to argue Shadowsteps merits, it would be on the basis of a very respectable damage boost and extremely nice utility. When you need to get somewhere right this instant (to knock that healer out of the picture so your team can work uninterrupted), Shadowstep is what you want. But saying that it is more useful than Cold Blood on the basis of damage output, especially when you have Prep (which any heavy Sub build better always have), is very, very silly.
Just my point of view. ^^
lilyophelia wrote:
rfecteau wrote:
I was originally going to do Shadowstep simply because it sounded cool, to be honest. But actually looking at it, I can't see that I agree with you in any way, shape or form.
To start, we're obviously talking about PvP because because in PvE against a difficult mob you would not restealth. In solo PvE play, you'd reset the combat and in group play you'd have to vanish, I believe, to be able to stealth again (at the very least you'd have to give up some number of seconds of white damage for sure). If you're talking about grinding easy mobs...that doesn't really interest me one way or another and wouldn't be a deciding factor in my talents.
So, for PvP. Shadowstep does give a nice damage boost and it's even nice for catching up to moving targets or for sneaking in past defenses to kill a turtled target; if nothing else, it's a time saver. But to say that it is better than cold blood on the basis of damage is absolutely silly.
Quote:
Shadowstep isn't about helping to get behind your target, it's all about the +20% damage. Too hard for me to pass up for pvp.
Quote:
1 shadowstep every 15s >> 1 cold blood every 3 mins or 1.5 mins. Especially since you probably would crit on the cold blood hit ~25% of the time anyway without using cold blood.
I was originally going to do Shadowstep simply because it sounded cool, to be honest. But actually looking at it, I can't see that I agree with you in any way, shape or form.
To start, we're obviously talking about PvP because because in PvE against a difficult mob you would not restealth. In solo PvE play, you'd reset the combat and in group play you'd have to vanish, I believe, to be able to stealth again (at the very least you'd have to give up some number of seconds of white damage for sure). If you're talking about grinding easy mobs...that doesn't really interest me one way or another and wouldn't be a deciding factor in my talents.
So, for PvP. Shadowstep does give a nice damage boost and it's even nice for catching up to moving targets or for sneaking in past defenses to kill a turtled target; if nothing else, it's a time saver. But to say that it is better than cold blood on the basis of damage is absolutely silly.
You may say it's silly, but speaking as someone who has actually played both specs a fair amount, I strongly disagree. In the course of a battleground I will do far more damage directly from shadowstep than I will using cold blood. Restealthing on targets (who aren't already dead from an ambush/bs/ks/evisc combo) to get a second shadowstep sequence isn't all that rare.
Play them both and see for yourself.
rfecteau wrote:
lilyophelia wrote:
rfecteau wrote:
I was originally going to do Shadowstep simply because it sounded cool, to be honest. But actually looking at it, I can't see that I agree with you in any way, shape or form.
To start, we're obviously talking about PvP because because in PvE against a difficult mob you would not restealth. In solo PvE play, you'd reset the combat and in group play you'd have to vanish, I believe, to be able to stealth again (at the very least you'd have to give up some number of seconds of white damage for sure). If you're talking about grinding easy mobs...that doesn't really interest me one way or another and wouldn't be a deciding factor in my talents.
So, for PvP. Shadowstep does give a nice damage boost and it's even nice for catching up to moving targets or for sneaking in past defenses to kill a turtled target; if nothing else, it's a time saver. But to say that it is better than cold blood on the basis of damage is absolutely silly.
Quote:
Shadowstep isn't about helping to get behind your target, it's all about the +20% damage. Too hard for me to pass up for pvp.
Quote:
1 shadowstep every 15s >> 1 cold blood every 3 mins or 1.5 mins. Especially since you probably would crit on the cold blood hit ~25% of the time anyway without using cold blood.
I was originally going to do Shadowstep simply because it sounded cool, to be honest. But actually looking at it, I can't see that I agree with you in any way, shape or form.
To start, we're obviously talking about PvP because because in PvE against a difficult mob you would not restealth. In solo PvE play, you'd reset the combat and in group play you'd have to vanish, I believe, to be able to stealth again (at the very least you'd have to give up some number of seconds of white damage for sure). If you're talking about grinding easy mobs...that doesn't really interest me one way or another and wouldn't be a deciding factor in my talents.
So, for PvP. Shadowstep does give a nice damage boost and it's even nice for catching up to moving targets or for sneaking in past defenses to kill a turtled target; if nothing else, it's a time saver. But to say that it is better than cold blood on the basis of damage is absolutely silly.
You may say it's silly, but speaking as someone who has actually played both specs a fair amount, I strongly disagree. In the course of a battleground I will do far more damage directly from shadowstep than I will using cold blood. Restealthing on targets (who aren't already dead from an ambush/bs/ks/evisc combo) to get a second shadowstep sequence isn't all that rare.
Play them both and see for yourself.
I have played them both.
ShS sucks, flat out.
Well, we will have to agree to disagree.
Agreed. I did not care for ShS at all when I spec'd it. It's useless against moving targets due to lag issues, and after the big opener you really don't have much.
lily, I considered almost the exact same spec you ultimately came up with......but in the end opted for Muti. I'd be interested to hear how you like it. At level 28 you have a ways to go before you can enjoy all those new talents! Which tree do you plan on going down first?
~E~
lily, I considered almost the exact same spec you ultimately came up with......but in the end opted for Muti. I'd be interested to hear how you like it. At level 28 you have a ways to go before you can enjoy all those new talents! Which tree do you plan on going down first?
~E~
Eliff wrote:
I know! I'm very excited, though, to finally be playing my rogue again. She was my first character, and after my first 2-3 BGs, I got scared and decided to play more casters (so I didn't have to chase everything down constantly). Playing my rogue is so much more active and exciting. Anyway, these are my builds for 29-70.
Level 29 - I temporarily opted for 2 points in Imp Sinister Strike because I couldn't grab Hemo at this level and I wanted something more energy efficient. I also really wanted Camouflage. No one really says this much, but Camo is great for restealing in group PvP, esp after you get caught in a frost nova, poly, or freeze trap. Most of the time people don't want to break the effects (or don't notice you right away for the nova) and you can pop right back into stealth. Elusiveness was also a priority for me because I use Vanish very heavily. Initiative seemed more helpful than Ruthless/Relentless because at this level, people don't live through finishers usually; stunlocks aren't possible yet either. I'm going to be 29 for a while to farm honor and marks and just enjoy myself before moving up.
Level 39 - I'm going to respec here to get three points back; two from Improved Sinister Strike and one from Master of Deception. I'll grab Serrated Blades and Hemo, and sadly pass up on Dirty Deeds for the moment. In it's place, I'll have just enough points for Malice and Improved Backstab. Now I have my sub utility, and the damage boost from Opportunity to go with my much higher crit chance for Backstab. At this point I'll have Kidney Shots, so backstab will see much more use and I want it to hit harder.
Level 49 - Finally grab Dirty Deeds; not going to get to Cold Blood or Seal Fate any faster without the two points. I put the rest in Assass to boost efficiency and damage.
Level 59 - Last stop before 70. I'm not sure if it would be better to be 3/5 Seal Fate or 2/2 Dirty Deeds at this point, though. Probably the 2/2 Dirty Deeds because I would always have enough energy (not counting misses) to get off at least Cheap Shot -> Backstab -> Kidney Shots -> Backstab before the fight really got competitive. I'm not sure yet, but I wouldn't want mages and priests to be able to escape my Cheap Shot stun before I could lay down my first Kdiney Shots. Of course, at 70 I would eventually spend the gold for another respec for Vigor.
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lily, I considered almost the exact same spec you ultimately came up with......but in the end opted for Muti. I'd be interested to hear how you like it. At level 28 you have a ways to go before you can enjoy all those new talents! Which tree do you plan on going down first?
I know! I'm very excited, though, to finally be playing my rogue again. She was my first character, and after my first 2-3 BGs, I got scared and decided to play more casters (so I didn't have to chase everything down constantly). Playing my rogue is so much more active and exciting. Anyway, these are my builds for 29-70.
Level 29 - I temporarily opted for 2 points in Imp Sinister Strike because I couldn't grab Hemo at this level and I wanted something more energy efficient. I also really wanted Camouflage. No one really says this much, but Camo is great for restealing in group PvP, esp after you get caught in a frost nova, poly, or freeze trap. Most of the time people don't want to break the effects (or don't notice you right away for the nova) and you can pop right back into stealth. Elusiveness was also a priority for me because I use Vanish very heavily. Initiative seemed more helpful than Ruthless/Relentless because at this level, people don't live through finishers usually; stunlocks aren't possible yet either. I'm going to be 29 for a while to farm honor and marks and just enjoy myself before moving up.
Level 39 - I'm going to respec here to get three points back; two from Improved Sinister Strike and one from Master of Deception. I'll grab Serrated Blades and Hemo, and sadly pass up on Dirty Deeds for the moment. In it's place, I'll have just enough points for Malice and Improved Backstab. Now I have my sub utility, and the damage boost from Opportunity to go with my much higher crit chance for Backstab. At this point I'll have Kidney Shots, so backstab will see much more use and I want it to hit harder.
Level 49 - Finally grab Dirty Deeds; not going to get to Cold Blood or Seal Fate any faster without the two points. I put the rest in Assass to boost efficiency and damage.
Level 59 - Last stop before 70. I'm not sure if it would be better to be 3/5 Seal Fate or 2/2 Dirty Deeds at this point, though. Probably the 2/2 Dirty Deeds because I would always have enough energy (not counting misses) to get off at least Cheap Shot -> Backstab -> Kidney Shots -> Backstab before the fight really got competitive. I'm not sure yet, but I wouldn't want mages and priests to be able to escape my Cheap Shot stun before I could lay down my first Kdiney Shots. Of course, at 70 I would eventually spend the gold for another respec for Vigor.
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