As your leveling does screech keep up with your mend pet abilities? I notice that mobs tend to hate when you heal even more than when you shoot them with an arrow so that even with screech on auto (when I end up getting multiple mobs on my pet) they still decide to come after me instead of focusing on the pet. Does each level of screech not quite scale up well enough compared to the healing your mend pet can put out? Even on an enemy that I have not shot the healing tends to take them off my pet.
Also, just as a side question for curiosity, is a tank pet really needed to solo? After looking through petopia, it looks like a tank pet may end up with an extra 500-1000 armor at level 70. That's nice and all, but the extra dps from a dps pet could overcome the extra armor pretty fast (at least it looks that way from the stuff I saw).
What I don't know, of course (since I'm not anywhere near 70) is if that extra armor bonus stacks on top of all the bonus your giving your pet from your own armor as well as the armor you get from talents and pet training. Are there any threads hanging around that can show the real differences at level 70 between a tank pet and a dps pet? I do honestly wonder how big a difference it can really make in the end-game for hunters who are fully geared out between their damage, health, and armor supplies. Especialy since I tend to read that even Beastmasters have their pets slaughtered in 70 raids.
Scorpids. Is it a dps pet disguised as a tank pet? Their final rank of poison seems like it would add a rather large amount of damage as long as the enemy is not immune to it. Granted I'm not sure just how well the dps from their poison stacks compared to the extra base dps of a cat or ravager, but this is why I ask.
And my last question (for now, lol): Cats vs Ravagers. I hear debates about this all the time, I even started a question about it a while back, but I can't find it anymore *sad*. I know that Gore, in the long run, does more base dps than claw. However, with Gore missing several ranks, is it better to level with a cat (assuming you level with a dps pet) and then take a Ravager at 70? Or is it simply better to suffer through the missing ranks and just keep a Ravager since you won't ever see one worth leveling between 25-65 or so. I've never really been able to pick between the two dps pets, so this might help a bit.
Any other advice you want to throw at me is appreciated. I've been playing more hunters than I can count for a long time (I think i've hit about 20 of them or so) since I started the game, they always tend to hit about level 26 or so before I bounce to a new character and then slowly fade away until it's time for a new hunters again. Hunter is the one class that I always seem to come back to so I figure it's time to buckle down and really learn the thing and keep one.
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A few questions about petsFollow
Screach Does keep up with your lvl,but you have toget it from new pets , learn it and pass it to yuor current pet , otherwise it stays the same ,(on pettopia you can find which pets you need to tame in order to obtain a skill)
About the DPS Vs Deff
I say go for DPS ( jsut my oppinion). armor is nice but at 70 armor difference of 1000 isnt really alot, plus your pet will have like 10k armor (im not sure about it but i think it is. DPS pets such as birds,bats,cats e.t.c.are great at keeping aggro, on the other hand deffence pets dont keep aggro, they jsut stay (alive and do crap dmg) , when i was marksman my pet hardly ever lost aggro ( even with opening of aimed+ concussive)now im BM and my pet never looses aggro, however my turtle( for test) lost it even on BM tree.
your mend pet WILL pull off and pet adds unless you switch your pets attacks or use propper rank screach.
Scorpids, after doing some number crunching i found out that their dps is as good as a cats ( thats with 5 poisons) but in pvp that sucks for your traps, yeah scorpids are great pets if you dont mind never using your freeze traps, and scorp. poison does loads of aggro.
I say go for cat and get bite instead of claw if you want constant dps , however claw is better then gore in my oppinion and stealth is nice in pvp.
so cats for me and im a happy hutner.
and ... to kep your hunter interesting i would suggest doing bgs as even at lower lvl then twinks aimed ( at lower lvl) owns , then BM will own anything even higher then you.
( my hunter is 53 now and pet + me can rip through a mage lvl 61, decently equiped in no time at all( unless they fireball us first... then we are screwed :P but from BM intimidate is cool against mages)
Edited, May 12th 2007 4:35am by kizzahunt
About the DPS Vs Deff
I say go for DPS ( jsut my oppinion). armor is nice but at 70 armor difference of 1000 isnt really alot, plus your pet will have like 10k armor (im not sure about it but i think it is. DPS pets such as birds,bats,cats e.t.c.are great at keeping aggro, on the other hand deffence pets dont keep aggro, they jsut stay (alive and do crap dmg) , when i was marksman my pet hardly ever lost aggro ( even with opening of aimed+ concussive)now im BM and my pet never looses aggro, however my turtle( for test) lost it even on BM tree.
your mend pet WILL pull off and pet adds unless you switch your pets attacks or use propper rank screach.
Scorpids, after doing some number crunching i found out that their dps is as good as a cats ( thats with 5 poisons) but in pvp that sucks for your traps, yeah scorpids are great pets if you dont mind never using your freeze traps, and scorp. poison does loads of aggro.
I say go for cat and get bite instead of claw if you want constant dps , however claw is better then gore in my oppinion and stealth is nice in pvp.
so cats for me and im a happy hutner.
and ... to kep your hunter interesting i would suggest doing bgs as even at lower lvl then twinks aimed ( at lower lvl) owns , then BM will own anything even higher then you.
( my hunter is 53 now and pet + me can rip through a mage lvl 61, decently equiped in no time at all( unless they fireball us first... then we are screwed :P but from BM intimidate is cool against mages)
Edited, May 12th 2007 4:35am by kizzahunt
1 point of dmg= 1 threat
1 point of heal=2 threat.
so healing your pet for a few hundred hp does indeed get you a crapload of aggro.
not much you can do about it but to FD.
1 point of heal=2 threat.
so healing your pet for a few hundred hp does indeed get you a crapload of aggro.
not much you can do about it but to FD.
codexia wrote:
As your leveling does screech keep up with your mend pet abilities? I notice that mobs tend to hate when you heal even more than when you shoot them with an arrow so that even with screech on auto (when I end up getting multiple mobs on my pet) they still decide to come after me instead of focusing on the pet. Does each level of screech not quite scale up well enough compared to the healing your mend pet can put out? Even on an enemy that I have not shot the healing tends to take them off my pet.
Healing is, by nature, more threatening than damage. What you actually need to be doing is hitting FD to clear your aggro before the enemies decide to come for you.
Quote:
Also, just as a side question for curiosity, is a tank pet really needed to solo? After looking through petopia, it looks like a tank pet may end up with an extra 500-1000 armor at level 70. That's nice and all, but the extra dps from a dps pet could overcome the extra armor pretty fast (at least it looks that way from the stuff I saw).
What I don't know, of course (since I'm not anywhere near 70) is if that extra armor bonus stacks on top of all the bonus your giving your pet from your own armor as well as the armor you get from talents and pet training. Are there any threads hanging around that can show the real differences at level 70 between a tank pet and a dps pet? I do honestly wonder how big a difference it can really make in the end-game for hunters who are fully geared out between their damage, health, and armor supplies. Especialy since I tend to read that even Beastmasters have their pets slaughtered in 70 raids.
What I don't know, of course (since I'm not anywhere near 70) is if that extra armor bonus stacks on top of all the bonus your giving your pet from your own armor as well as the armor you get from talents and pet training. Are there any threads hanging around that can show the real differences at level 70 between a tank pet and a dps pet? I do honestly wonder how big a difference it can really make in the end-game for hunters who are fully geared out between their damage, health, and armor supplies. Especialy since I tend to read that even Beastmasters have their pets slaughtered in 70 raids.
BM pets dying in raids has more to do with lack of preparation and pet control than pet stats. Many Beast Masters try to raid with their pet the same way as when they solo.
As for defense vs. offense... A BM buffs both damage and armor. Since these are increased by percentages a defense pet becomes very defensive and a damage pet becomes very deadly. However, defense pets also deal some good damage and dps pets can hold their own as a tank.
I've always stuck with my cat... and he can tank just fine with all the extra armor (and yes, the talents apply to the stats from the hunter).
Quote:
Scorpids. Is it a dps pet disguised as a tank pet? Their final rank of poison seems like it would add a rather large amount of damage as long as the enemy is not immune to it. Granted I'm not sure just how well the dps from their poison stacks compared to the extra base dps of a cat or ravager, but this is why I ask.
Potentially. Keep in mind that you're not doing that magic full dps from the start of the fight, and then you have to start it over at the beginning of the next fight (or even the next target). It prevents you from using crowd-control on the target, and many enemies are immune to poison.
Scorpids can deal exceptional damage in long fights against creatures vulnerable to poison/nature, but are otherwise defense pets. Could be considered somewhere in-between.
Quote:
And my last question (for now, lol): Cats vs Ravagers. I hear debates about this all the time, I even started a question about it a while back, but I can't find it anymore *sad*. I know that Gore, in the long run, does more base dps than claw. However, with Gore missing several ranks, is it better to level with a cat (assuming you level with a dps pet) and then take a Ravager at 70? Or is it simply better to suffer through the missing ranks and just keep a Ravager since you won't ever see one worth leveling between 25-65 or so. I've never really been able to pick between the two dps pets, so this might help a bit.
There is no question that Gore is better than Claw. Same focus, slightly less base damage, ridiculously high "crit" chance. Over time it would come out to around 20-25% extra damage over Claw (if you consider pet crit chance of around 20-25% for Claw, and less base damage on Gore). This is not total damage, just Claw/Gore damage.
It may be better to level with a cat, where the abilities stay current, but you don't have to wait all the way until 70 for a ravager.
Cats do have a little advantage, also. Pure dps-wise, the ravager wins out. However, ravagers can't use Prowl (this will not even out the dps, but it allows the cat to be used in more creative ways).
Thanks for all the info, it does help a lot.
The only question it ends up raising for me is about the cats and ravagers. Just how useful is prowl if your not a nightelf? Being able to hide your cat around in PvP sounds very useful, but is it as useful if they send in a pet/eye of kilrogg/whatever else can be used and spot you hanging out without your pet? It would seem a little obvious kitty is hiding somewhere wouldn't it?
The only question it ends up raising for me is about the cats and ravagers. Just how useful is prowl if your not a nightelf? Being able to hide your cat around in PvP sounds very useful, but is it as useful if they send in a pet/eye of kilrogg/whatever else can be used and spot you hanging out without your pet? It would seem a little obvious kitty is hiding somewhere wouldn't it?
Theo says prowl is utterly useless.
But if you wanna try it, you can park your kitty, prowled, on a node in BG, and then you go hide in the bushes or around a corner. Use STAY command.
It's really slow and a huge pain. Dash or Besital Swiftness helps some, but you'll get bored waiting for your prowled cat to attack - he does get a nice bonus attacking out of prowl. The slowness of his movement speed usually is not worth it.
Yes, it's very handy to use Eyes of the Beast and prowl around inviso, spying on things. But is it worth it? How often would you really use this? Outdoors Eagle is better. Indoors, you can send a visible pet ahead using EotB, to spy - and if you get agro ... I forget bah - can u dismiss pet - well, at the very worst you feign death and don't get agro - let pet die - raise pet. So you can get a little spying done.
But if you wanna try it, you can park your kitty, prowled, on a node in BG, and then you go hide in the bushes or around a corner. Use STAY command.
It's really slow and a huge pain. Dash or Besital Swiftness helps some, but you'll get bored waiting for your prowled cat to attack - he does get a nice bonus attacking out of prowl. The slowness of his movement speed usually is not worth it.
Yes, it's very handy to use Eyes of the Beast and prowl around inviso, spying on things. But is it worth it? How often would you really use this? Outdoors Eagle is better. Indoors, you can send a visible pet ahead using EotB, to spy - and if you get agro ... I forget bah - can u dismiss pet - well, at the very worst you feign death and don't get agro - let pet die - raise pet. So you can get a little spying done.
For a Night Elf, prowl is important in PvP. Guarding is just too fun with a Prowled pet and yourself lining up the Aimed Shot. Other than there, I never bother using it, even though alot of training points have gone into it.
Uh, scorpid poison will output way more than a cat will in long fights. Cat's arent even the 4th highest DPS in terms of skills + damage. Scorpids are first, wind serpents second, and ravagers third.
Are Wind Serpents really still that high? I thought Lightning Breath no longer scaled with your RAP.
And yea, I was looking at scorpids but there are a lot of enemies that are immune to poison. I was looking at it from a PvP perspective and even there, once you get a scorpid dot on your enemy, you can no longer freeze them in your traps which is a bit of a pain.
Once I get high enough i'll more than likely get a Ravager, but while leveling...hello kitty. Those missing ranks of Gore would just be a pain I think.
And yea, I was looking at scorpids but there are a lot of enemies that are immune to poison. I was looking at it from a PvP perspective and even there, once you get a scorpid dot on your enemy, you can no longer freeze them in your traps which is a bit of a pain.
Once I get high enough i'll more than likely get a Ravager, but while leveling...hello kitty. Those missing ranks of Gore would just be a pain I think.
skribs wrote:
Uh, scorpid poison will output way more than a cat will in long fights. Cat's arent even the 4th highest DPS in terms of skills + damage. Scorpids are first, wind serpents second, and ravagers third.
In long fights where the target is not immune to poison or nature damage.
You've caught my interest, so I decided to really look into this.
Scorpid Poison costs 30 focus and has a 4 second cooldown. At best, it'll take 16 seconds before your poison reaches full power, being 220 damage over 10 seconds, or 22 dps. Being a DoT it cannot crit. It bypasses armor but is subject to poison immunity and nature resistance.
A scorpid starts out with -6% damage.
Assuming a base dps of 100, that'd be 94 dps. Assuming a crit rate of 20% (a little low), that'd average out to 112.8 dps + 22 dps for the poison, 134.8.
Now for the cat. Claw costs 25 focus and has only global cooldown. +10% damage so 110 to start. Median damage for max claw is 65. Assuming the same 20% crit rate, that'd average out to 132 + 78, or 210.
True, Claw is susceptible to armor, but it doesn't lose 72% of its damage (which would drop it down to 22 dps). At the same time, Scorpid Poison takes 20 seconds to warm up, is affected by resists, and a large number of the longer-lasting fights have mobs immune to poison.
Another consideration is the impact on Frenzy. Claw goes off once per second and has a chance to crit, which will trigger Frenzy, thereby increasing normal dps. Scorpid Poison cannot crit and thus does not give that benefit.
Now, in theory you could include Claw on your scorpid, but between Growl, Claw, and Scorpid Poison there'd be little focus to go around.
Also, let me toss in Ravagers real quick. Gore costs 25 focus and has global cooldown. +10% damage so 110 again. Median damage for max Gore is 49. 20% crit again, that'd come out to 132 + 88.2 (49 * 1.2 * 1.5), or 220.2. And Gore has all the same benefits as Claw.
To be perfectly honest, though, math is not my strongest selling point. If you have better numbers that show I'm completely off-base, I'd be interested to look over them.
Edited, May 12th 2007 9:15pm by Sayis
Very nice, although that makes it look like Claw vs Gore isn't nearly as huge a gap as I thought originaly. That would certainly make me happy, since I do love my kitties. Losing 10 dps isn't THAT big a change to let me keep my cat. Granted, I have no clue how much dps 10 is by the end-game.
codexia wrote:
Very nice, although that makes it look like Claw vs Gore isn't nearly as huge a gap as I thought originaly. That would certainly make me happy, since I do love my kitties. Losing 10 dps isn't THAT big a change to let me keep my cat. Granted, I have no clue how much dps 10 is by the end-game.
If it did as much damage as Claw, Gore would do 117 dps (+39 dps). The lowered base damage does make a difference, though. It's about 5% more overall damage... 12% more damage than Claw.
12% more damage may be worth getting a killer insect for. Even if they are very nice looking killer insects, I would certainly miss my kitty.
On the offchance I decide to grab el bug, would this be a decent battleground build for it? Endgame of course
http://www.direhornshuntershut.com/petcalc.php?build=8x0x9x3x9x0x6x3x3x0x3x3x3x13x2x0
As far as I know it's the max resist you can get to all the annoyances (fear, frost, roots and sheep) while still having maxed bite, gore and dash. Toss in some extra hp and armor just to use the extra points and it seems like it would be hard to take it out. What do you think?
On the offchance I decide to grab el bug, would this be a decent battleground build for it? Endgame of course
http://www.direhornshuntershut.com/petcalc.php?build=8x0x9x3x9x0x6x3x3x0x3x3x3x13x2x0
As far as I know it's the max resist you can get to all the annoyances (fear, frost, roots and sheep) while still having maxed bite, gore and dash. Toss in some extra hp and armor just to use the extra points and it seems like it would be hard to take it out. What do you think?
Probably, but having Bite might counteract some of Gore's dps. Also, keep in mind that the total damage only increases by about 5%...
top dps pets (if skribs can do his math, wich i assume he can)
1: Scorpid (surprise to me.. i would have guessed it 4th/5th or so)
2: Windserpent (would have guessed this at the top)
3: Ravager
4: cat
boars will be relatively close to this too i think. wouldnt know for sure where...
skribs, would you mind making a total list of all pets in order of dps?
(and send it to petopia too, i'd say its worth mentioning it there ;) )
1: Scorpid (surprise to me.. i would have guessed it 4th/5th or so)
2: Windserpent (would have guessed this at the top)
3: Ravager
4: cat
boars will be relatively close to this too i think. wouldnt know for sure where...
skribs, would you mind making a total list of all pets in order of dps?
(and send it to petopia too, i'd say its worth mentioning it there ;) )
Well, found skribs post, finally. Reminded me of something I forgot to take into account: focus regen. With Bestial Discipline, you get 25 focus per 2 seconds, so that would basically halve the dps from Claw/Gore (since I was accounting for once per second).
So that changes the numbers I put up to...
Ravager: 132 + 44.1 = 176.1
Cat: 132 + 39 = 171
Scorpid: 112.8 + 22 = 132.8
Now, damage reduction can make a difference.
Ravager: 92.4 + 30.9 = 123.3
Cat: 92.3 + 27.3 = 119.6
Scorpid: 79 + 22 = 101
His equations factor in Claws into the scorpid dps. Assuming his numbers of 1 Scorpid Sting and 3 Claws per 10 seconds (105 total focus for a period of 100 focus regen):
Scorpid 79 + 22 + 23.4 = 124.4
Which does indeed put Scorpid ahead of the other two, but in a situation where the scorpid is expending more focus than it regens, where the enemy is vulnerable to poisons, and where he has already fought for at least 16 seconds to get up to max poison damage.
As for his numbers on a Wind Serpent, he assumed a RAP of 2000, which I find to be unrealistically high for a generic test. Attainable at 70, yes, but not an average RAP for level 70 hunters.
Still, his equations kind of put mine to shame.
The link for those interested: http://wow.allakhazam.com/db/class.html?wclass=5;mid=1176761522140293865;num=10;page=1
Edit: No, wait, forgot the DR on the Scorpid's Claws.
Scorpid: 79 + 22 + 16.4 = 117.4
And of course, now I notice the link in skribs' sig.
Edited, May 13th 2007 8:08am by Sayis
So that changes the numbers I put up to...
Ravager: 132 + 44.1 = 176.1
Cat: 132 + 39 = 171
Scorpid: 112.8 + 22 = 132.8
Now, damage reduction can make a difference.
Ravager: 92.4 + 30.9 = 123.3
Cat: 92.3 + 27.3 = 119.6
Scorpid: 79 + 22 = 101
His equations factor in Claws into the scorpid dps. Assuming his numbers of 1 Scorpid Sting and 3 Claws per 10 seconds (105 total focus for a period of 100 focus regen):
Scorpid 79 + 22 + 23.4 = 124.4
Which does indeed put Scorpid ahead of the other two, but in a situation where the scorpid is expending more focus than it regens, where the enemy is vulnerable to poisons, and where he has already fought for at least 16 seconds to get up to max poison damage.
As for his numbers on a Wind Serpent, he assumed a RAP of 2000, which I find to be unrealistically high for a generic test. Attainable at 70, yes, but not an average RAP for level 70 hunters.
Still, his equations kind of put mine to shame.
The link for those interested: http://wow.allakhazam.com/db/class.html?wclass=5;mid=1176761522140293865;num=10;page=1
Edit: No, wait, forgot the DR on the Scorpid's Claws.
Scorpid: 79 + 22 + 16.4 = 117.4
And of course, now I notice the link in skribs' sig.
Edited, May 13th 2007 8:08am by Sayis
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