well mutilate has to be used with poisens and u need to have TWO good high end damage and speed daggers. Also i fell that mutilate doesnt even stand a chance against backstab but thats my opinion. Backstab gets a high *** crit and u dont need poisens to be effective. plus mutilate doesnt have a sound that makes it seem cool LMAO. I dont really know but can anyone help me out, should i go mutilate spec or a backstab assaination and subtelety hybrid?
Edited, May 10th 2007 11:58pm by ElChikito
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Does backstab surpass mutilate?Follow
24 posts
Think about it
A 40 point talent
or a move you learn at level 4
Hmmmm
Hmmm
It's a hard one
A 40 point talent
or a move you learn at level 4
Hmmmm
Hmmm
It's a hard one
Go with whatever you like. Mutilate is a stronger attack that backstab overall. Generally, at the same gear level, it'll do more damage and generate more combo points over time. Double mutilate crits hit like an ambush - not a backstab. Backstab has the advantage of a higher natural crit (with improved BS). Backstab also doesn't require any poisons to be on your target. In general, getting poisons on your target is pretty easy with mutilate once you learn to play the build... it's really not a problem at all in most cases. The exception is poison imune mobs (which create obvious problems).
Nothingness wrote:
Think about it
A 40 point talent
or a move you learn at level 4
Hmmmm
Hmmm
It's a hard one
A 40 point talent
or a move you learn at level 4
Hmmmm
Hmmm
It's a hard one
I understand why you wrote this, but actually it IS a hard one. Look at all the crappy talents blizzard put up as 31/41 point talents for various classes and you will notice that one can't really be that certain that a 31/41 talent move is good just because it costs a lot of talent points to get.
As for the actual question. Although a good backstab can do more damage than a bad mutilate, you can expect mutilate to do more damage per attack in most cases (and generate more CP on top of that). That doesn't mean that backstab is obselete though. Since mutilate requires a strong talent point investment you can still build up very good talent builds based around backstab.
41 posts
True, the damage differences between the two sometimes mean a good backstab is roughly equal to a medium mutilate, but Mutilate's massive selling point is the CP generation, and how hard is it to apply poisons to a non-poison immune target anyway? The new animation in the next patch might be nice too.
This seems like a good place for a general mutilate question... I'm told that the slower your off-hand dagger, the better. Of course the sacred principle of dual-wielding is that the more damaging weapon (in terms of damage only) goes in your main hand, so it'd be nice to have a selection of daggers to play about with this (lousy Murmur and Skyriss not dropping daggers...). So my question to you guys, given the higher-damage weapon in the main hand, let's imagine two daggers of comparable damage but of different speeds - say 1.4 and 1.8. Why, exactly, should the mutilate build favour the slower?
This seems like a good place for a general mutilate question... I'm told that the slower your off-hand dagger, the better. Of course the sacred principle of dual-wielding is that the more damaging weapon (in terms of damage only) goes in your main hand, so it'd be nice to have a selection of daggers to play about with this (lousy Murmur and Skyriss not dropping daggers...). So my question to you guys, given the higher-damage weapon in the main hand, let's imagine two daggers of comparable damage but of different speeds - say 1.4 and 1.8. Why, exactly, should the mutilate build favour the slower?
7 posts
I don't think the weapon speed is the key here, but rather the damage range (not DPS, mind you).
Rogue instant attacks usually benefit from higher damage ranges due to the way damage is calculated. And since slower weapons typically have higher damage ranges people tend to talk about weapon speed as the determining factor: "You should use a slow weapon for your SS/Muti"
But if you have two weapons with identical damage ranges but different speeds, the faster weapon is always the better (except with Hemo =P).
Rogue instant attacks usually benefit from higher damage ranges due to the way damage is calculated. And since slower weapons typically have higher damage ranges people tend to talk about weapon speed as the determining factor: "You should use a slow weapon for your SS/Muti"
But if you have two weapons with identical damage ranges but different speeds, the faster weapon is always the better (except with Hemo =P).
Backstab does NOT have a major increased crit rating over mutilate people.
Mutilate is two attacks, and even a single mutilate crit pwns a BS crit.
At 30% crit strike, mutilate has a 55% chance of a single crit whereas backstab has a 60%. Do the math.
Mutilate is two attacks, and even a single mutilate crit pwns a BS crit.
At 30% crit strike, mutilate has a 55% chance of a single crit whereas backstab has a 60%. Do the math.
In a mutilate build, both daggers should be as slow as possible. 1.80 speed is the most common in the 60-70 range.
42 posts
The reason speed matters in any backstab, ambush, or mutilate build is that the slower the weapon the higher the base damage..
For example a weapon with a damage of 104-155 and attack speed of 1.70 will have lower damage under the character screen compared to a dagger with the same damage but a 2.00 speed.
I played a combat rogue from 1-50 then swtiched to mutilate for the grind from 50-70... Jsut recently started playing with backstab and i liek it more then mutilate..
Mutilate would be the better build if there was a crit rate + skill for it, but then again it would make it to overpowered.. The damage is just to unreliable.
Backstab give you very constant damage, many more options, survivability which to me makes it more fun to play.
For example a weapon with a damage of 104-155 and attack speed of 1.70 will have lower damage under the character screen compared to a dagger with the same damage but a 2.00 speed.
I played a combat rogue from 1-50 then swtiched to mutilate for the grind from 50-70... Jsut recently started playing with backstab and i liek it more then mutilate..
Mutilate would be the better build if there was a crit rate + skill for it, but then again it would make it to overpowered.. The damage is just to unreliable.
Backstab give you very constant damage, many more options, survivability which to me makes it more fun to play.
Shaolinz wrote:
Backstab does NOT have a major increased crit rating over mutilate people.
Mutilate is two attacks, and even a single mutilate crit pwns a BS crit.
At 30% crit strike, mutilate has a 55% chance of a single crit whereas backstab has a 60%. Do the math.
Mutilate is two attacks, and even a single mutilate crit pwns a BS crit.
At 30% crit strike, mutilate has a 55% chance of a single crit whereas backstab has a 60%. Do the math.
That's true. Mutilate scales very well with crit. However, I think I should point out that most people don't have 30% crit. Top end gear is focused more on AP and hit for raiding and stam/resiliance for PvP. Crit is still there obviously, however we lost a decent amount of our crit from 60->70. While you can gear yourself to have 30%+ crit, you do give up a lot of things (IE: hp, ap, etc..). The "crit" gear suits that you can make for that level of crit will be okay for PvE but will get eaten alive in PvE (IE: under 7k hp).
At 30% crit mute has a 51% chance to crit and BS has 60% crit. At 22% crit, mute has a 39% ish chance to crit, while BS has a 52% chance to crit. In either case, the crits are obviously nice. However, mute does decent base damage anyway... and also has best in class CP generation.
At any rate, mutilate will always crit less often than backstab.... it's just in the math. Anyone considering a mute build would be wise not to base the majority of their decision on BS vs Mute discussions. There is plenty more to a mute build than mute itself. You are, after all, putting 41 points into assassination to get the tallent.
Slow weapons as its been said have a great damage range than fast weapons. so say 103damage +145 +50% is more than 70 +145 +50% [random numbers but you get the point]. Muty does generally more damage than backstab. This has been discussed in detail with full blown numbers and statistics in a post somewhere far behind the pages one moment.
o ya my first topic here. The posts your looking for are somewhere at the bottom and easy to notice.
http://wow.allakhazam.com/db/class.html?wclass=4&mid=117622587980175128
o ya my first topic here. The posts your looking for are somewhere at the bottom and easy to notice.
http://wow.allakhazam.com/db/class.html?wclass=4&mid=117622587980175128
27 posts
For me, you have to give up to many things for Mutilate, especially PvP...after the next Patch when everybody can take his Trinket against your 5Pkt kidney your gone, cause you stand there with no energy, you got no Preperation etc...but thats only my small 2 Cents.
What i like about backstap is the fakt that is has NO requirements and it wins easily when the question is 41Pkt Talent against 3pkt Talent. What im trying to say is you just get more for your "Skillpoint Investment"
What i like about backstap is the fakt that is has NO requirements and it wins easily when the question is 41Pkt Talent against 3pkt Talent. What im trying to say is you just get more for your "Skillpoint Investment"
Its 41 vs 8 pts :P
Mutilate is the best cp generator u can get. 60 energy for 2 cp - thats 30 energy per cp. If your target is poisoned and u even get a crit of it also does some very nice damage. Double crit even makes ambush-like damage, however for that you need to be very lucky.
So: Decent-good damage while generating CP like a machine - Don't think there's anything to complain about.
Backstab on the other hand: U get a very nice critical rate on this one with just 8 talent points! Thats very nice if you want some burst damage. However, backstab is very VERY poor on generating combo points. It costs the same energy while only making one attack instead of two and also only adds 1 combo point instead of two.
Mutilate is the best cp generator u can get. 60 energy for 2 cp - thats 30 energy per cp. If your target is poisoned and u even get a crit of it also does some very nice damage. Double crit even makes ambush-like damage, however for that you need to be very lucky.
So: Decent-good damage while generating CP like a machine - Don't think there's anything to complain about.
Backstab on the other hand: U get a very nice critical rate on this one with just 8 talent points! Thats very nice if you want some burst damage. However, backstab is very VERY poor on generating combo points. It costs the same energy while only making one attack instead of two and also only adds 1 combo point instead of two.
schweizi wrote:
Its 41 vs 8 pts :P
Mutilate is the best cp generator u can get. 60 energy for 2 cp - thats 30 energy per cp.
Mutilate is the best cp generator u can get. 60 energy for 2 cp - thats 30 energy per cp.
Don't forget w/ Seal Fate if either of your swings on Muti crit it's 3 CPs not 2.
42 posts
Very interesting topic. I've thought a lot about the question myself. While I do believe mutilate will have higher overall dmg and CP generation (great for grinding/raiding), there are a few things to consider in PVP such as poison immune targets (w/ cripple mostly pallies) and not being able to prot your poison before your mut hits (more of a problem). Anytime you're not able to start off with a cheap shot, it will be very hard to prot your poison before your mut (pre-70). This becomes less of an issue at lvl 70, it is still something to think about.
Examples I can think of right now are:
1) when you're fighting someone 1v1 and his teammate shows up right before you kill him
2) cheap shot being resisted.
3) you are fighting group v group and you realize you're attacking the wrong person and need to change targets.
Of course all these situations can be turned around with a vanish, but it wouldn't be something you would have to do if you were using BS. Plus, it's one less thing to think about which is always a plus. :D
Easiest solution is to get mut + imp BS, which isn't a bad idea considering it only uses 3 extra pts.
One more thing, BS has more consistent dmg. (consistent dmg good for PVP imo)
Examples I can think of right now are:
1) when you're fighting someone 1v1 and his teammate shows up right before you kill him
2) cheap shot being resisted.
3) you are fighting group v group and you realize you're attacking the wrong person and need to change targets.
Of course all these situations can be turned around with a vanish, but it wouldn't be something you would have to do if you were using BS. Plus, it's one less thing to think about which is always a plus. :D
Easiest solution is to get mut + imp BS, which isn't a bad idea considering it only uses 3 extra pts.
One more thing, BS has more consistent dmg. (consistent dmg good for PVP imo)
In a nutshell, Mutilate is better than Backstab. That is not to say that a 41/X/X build will out-dps a 15/41/5 build (combat daggers is still king of DPS). I've played Mutilate extensively, and know its strengths and limitations. I'm also pretty new to Combat Daggers (the raiding guild I recently joined made me espec), and I'm doing more damage than before. Substantially more.
Basically, it's the combat tree that makes a Backstab build win. Combat Potency, Blade Flurry, Adrenaline Rush, Dagger Spec, these are all amazingly powerful tools you will not have in a Mutilate build, and they add loads of damage. You also get the added bonus of having the burst of Adrenaline Rush when needed (for example, when the Curator Evocates).
Mutilate is an extremely strong build in all facets. It farms well (with the exception of elementals), it PvPs better than anything else (Subtlety is a joke these days), and it's probably the second best DPS build for a Rogue. If you want to be able to do everything well, grab Mutilate. If you want pure farming power, go Combat Swords. For pure DPS, combat Daggers.
Basically, it's the combat tree that makes a Backstab build win. Combat Potency, Blade Flurry, Adrenaline Rush, Dagger Spec, these are all amazingly powerful tools you will not have in a Mutilate build, and they add loads of damage. You also get the added bonus of having the burst of Adrenaline Rush when needed (for example, when the Curator Evocates).
Mutilate is an extremely strong build in all facets. It farms well (with the exception of elementals), it PvPs better than anything else (Subtlety is a joke these days), and it's probably the second best DPS build for a Rogue. If you want to be able to do everything well, grab Mutilate. If you want pure farming power, go Combat Swords. For pure DPS, combat Daggers.
Don't forget what you do with your points if you go combat bs - ie s&d. Sure you may get higher 5 point crits with mutilate but your white damage through s&d should be compensating for that.
I don't know whether any of you bother checking builds and gear for death & taxes and nihilium on armory but they all go combat and not mutilate. I would imagine through months of constant raiding that they have done the math and found combat to be higher in damage.
I don't know whether any of you bother checking builds and gear for death & taxes and nihilium on armory but they all go combat and not mutilate. I would imagine through months of constant raiding that they have done the math and found combat to be higher in damage.
Simple comparison from switching up your builds will give you the answer. Mutilate vs. Combat Daggers I am doing about 100 less damage.
You want to PvP, use Mutilate, you want to raid extensively, use Combat Daggers. With the way raid space is limited, I wouldn't take a Mutilate Rogue over a Combat anything.
You want to PvP, use Mutilate, you want to raid extensively, use Combat Daggers. With the way raid space is limited, I wouldn't take a Mutilate Rogue over a Combat anything.
your all just talking about mutilate and not thinking about the rest of the tree that it needs to reach there.
Just do backstab when there are no poisons and muty when there are. Use backstab when you need 1 point and muty when you need 2.
Just do backstab when there are no poisons and muty when there are. Use backstab when you need 1 point and muty when you need 2.
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