Hello all you shady types.
I'm a feral druid in a guild who are doing the early fights in Karazhan. We oneshot Attumen the Hunter each week and have downed Moroes once and got Maiden to 4%.
Our DPS in the raid seems to be lacking. We generally raid with 3 healers, 1 prot warrior and me as Offtank/DPS. When looking at our damage meters, our rogues are generally at the bottom of the DPS. Now I have looked at meters from the high end guilds in Serpentshrine etc., and their rogues are right up there at the top (depending on the fight).
My aim is to hopefully find out what our issue is and get the raids DPS up higher to make these boss fights easier (at least for Moroes, Maiden is not a very melee friendly fight.)
One rogue has a 44/5/12 spec and the other is 41/8/12 (without Mutilate!)
What spec or improvements to their spec will give higher DPS in the raid? Also, what sort of attack rotation will give the highest DPS for those specs?
I know rogues can do great damage, but they are doing about 300dps compared to my 500dps (in I assume about equal gear).
Thanks in advance for any help, and sorry for my ignorance of rogue mechanics.
·Theme
- Forums
- World of Warcraft
- Class Discussion
- A question from a non-rogue!
A question from a non-rogue!Follow
There could be a number of factors as to why their DPS is so low. For the Mutilate rogue - is his target poisoned? If not, a large chuck of his damage goes down. Gear can be a factor, but not so large that they would be at the bottom of the DPS (unless their daggers are very poor, in which case it makes perfect sense, or the rest of the DPS is that much better), so it is likely to be something else as well.
Are they using consumables (Flask of Relentless Assault, Major Agility, Fel Strength), do they have proper enchants on their gear (the +24 AP enchants are both rather cheap, the helm enchant is CE revered, should is scryer/aldor). Have they completed the quest chains that give good rogue rewards (Helm of Stealther Second Sight is an amazing helm, for example). Do they have adequate hit ratings? Do they die early in the fights? (guess what your DPS is when you're dead?)
Play style is something that can have a huge effect on DPS. I see neither of them have Imp SnD, so there is a good chance they may not use this skill. SnD is an amazing raiding skill and can boost DPS by quite a bit.
Last but not least - build. I love muti; it gives excellent control and I even placed among the top DPS the first (and only) time I used it in a raid. However, since respeccing to 30/31/0 or 20/41/0, I have consistently been right at the top of the DPS (we have a shadow priest that totally dominates everyone though Q_Q). Both of their builds seem odd just based on the number of skillpoints allocated (from a raiding perspective), so that is the first thing I'd look at.
-Z-
Are they using consumables (Flask of Relentless Assault, Major Agility, Fel Strength), do they have proper enchants on their gear (the +24 AP enchants are both rather cheap, the helm enchant is CE revered, should is scryer/aldor). Have they completed the quest chains that give good rogue rewards (Helm of Stealther Second Sight is an amazing helm, for example). Do they have adequate hit ratings? Do they die early in the fights? (guess what your DPS is when you're dead?)
Play style is something that can have a huge effect on DPS. I see neither of them have Imp SnD, so there is a good chance they may not use this skill. SnD is an amazing raiding skill and can boost DPS by quite a bit.
Last but not least - build. I love muti; it gives excellent control and I even placed among the top DPS the first (and only) time I used it in a raid. However, since respeccing to 30/31/0 or 20/41/0, I have consistently been right at the top of the DPS (we have a shadow priest that totally dominates everyone though Q_Q). Both of their builds seem odd just based on the number of skillpoints allocated (from a raiding perspective), so that is the first thing I'd look at.
-Z-
o nice explanation...it included everything i was going to say and more.
After looking thru your rogues on the armory, I can see why there is a problem.
None of them would be allowed to raid in my guild given their gear/specs and lack of enchants. None of them have the Cenarion Exp Helm enchant(glyph of ferocity). Very few have +15 agi on their wpns. Fewer still have those AP/crit or Stam/agi leg armor enchants. Hit rating is crappy on everyone of them save Gogandantess. Your best geared rogue is Namek(only rogue with more than 1400ap and is sub speccd so doesn't really count). If you could have him/her switch to combat mut or combat daggers, would easily lead dps in Kara. Seems to be a PvPer tho...
Many of your other rogues have big problems with their specs: Crimsonfate is Mut spec with out the mutilate talent.... Anyone on the boards will tell you that is kinda dumb. Crimsonfate's current spec-- http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/rogue/talents.html?3253231050001325010503203000000000000000000005502000000000000000000
Stickypalm - should move some points into imp poisons and a pt in relentless strikes
Katoros - actually looks decent, has epic mh sword and good oh, needs 200 more ap and another 50 hit rating and should be ready to lead dps as well.
Basically your rogues need some leadership in the PvE area.
None of them would be allowed to raid in my guild given their gear/specs and lack of enchants. None of them have the Cenarion Exp Helm enchant(glyph of ferocity). Very few have +15 agi on their wpns. Fewer still have those AP/crit or Stam/agi leg armor enchants. Hit rating is crappy on everyone of them save Gogandantess. Your best geared rogue is Namek(only rogue with more than 1400ap and is sub speccd so doesn't really count). If you could have him/her switch to combat mut or combat daggers, would easily lead dps in Kara. Seems to be a PvPer tho...
Many of your other rogues have big problems with their specs: Crimsonfate is Mut spec with out the mutilate talent.... Anyone on the boards will tell you that is kinda dumb. Crimsonfate's current spec-- http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/rogue/talents.html?3253231050001325010503203000000000000000000005502000000000000000000
Stickypalm - should move some points into imp poisons and a pt in relentless strikes
Katoros - actually looks decent, has epic mh sword and good oh, needs 200 more ap and another 50 hit rating and should be ready to lead dps as well.
Basically your rogues need some leadership in the PvE area.
Your rogues are bad, no shame in admitting it. 300dps? My tooltip white damage is more than 300dps... unbuffed...
First of all, there is absolutely no reason to go 41 points into assassination and not take mutilate. If you have a rogue that wants to use backstab, tell him to spec 15/41/5 or hell even 30/26/5. Mutilate can be a great raiding spec, but neither of the specs you posted are really going to cut it (though they should be fine in kara - assuming the one guy actually picks up mute). Relentless strikes should always be picked up in a mute build. Also, imp SnD pretty much "is" the raid tallent/finisher. If you don't have it, you're not serious. Any rogue, regardless of spec, will gain more overall DPS by using SnD everytime it's necessary to keep it up. With a mutilate build, you generally can easily keep it up and still throw out evis/rupture between every one. With the 2 piece T4 bonus I can actually get 2 4-5 point finishers off between 5 point SnDs.
In any case, there are reason's for rogues to get beaten on damage meters in BC. We have a shadow priest and a warlock that generally are able to top me on the meters for an average gruul fight... despite the fact that even with all the running around from slam/shatter, I still generally do 1000+ dps on those fights with buffs. Epic tailoring gear can be a *****. That being said, if you don't have any affliction locks with 1200+ damage in your kara groups, you might want to rethink your rogues. Any combat variant, including combat mutilate is a very viable raiding spec. Hell, even hemo, 30/0/31, and/or sub based mute builds should be fine for kara if the rogues know how to play their toons.
Since you asked for optimal cycles, I'll answer with this: For mutilate it's generally 4cp+. Basically every time you get 4 (or 5) cp you should be banging out a finisher. There is no shiving or SSing to get a 5th CP if you don't crit (and get an extra point via SF). Standard cycles look like this (after opening) Mute>Mute>SnD>Mute>Mute>Rup/Evis>Mute>Mute>SnD>Mute>Mute>Rup/Evis. Basically, 2 mutes, and a finisher... trying to keep SnD up 100% of the time without just blowing points/energy on it. If they have ruthlessness and it procs... and then they crit mute (giving them 4cp)... it can mean a single mute between finishers. For pure combat build's it's a bit easier. Daggers basically BS to 5cp and then SnD (and if you get a bunch of CP procs maybe throw in a rupture here and there). Sword/fist/mace is generally something like a 3s/5s/5e or 5s/5e cycle where s is slice and dice (at n number of cp) and e is evis (or rupture).
Also note: I could put out about 400 dps easily in mixed MC/BWL epics. If your rogues are really putting out 300 dps... there IS a major problem that they need to work to correct.
First of all, there is absolutely no reason to go 41 points into assassination and not take mutilate. If you have a rogue that wants to use backstab, tell him to spec 15/41/5 or hell even 30/26/5. Mutilate can be a great raiding spec, but neither of the specs you posted are really going to cut it (though they should be fine in kara - assuming the one guy actually picks up mute). Relentless strikes should always be picked up in a mute build. Also, imp SnD pretty much "is" the raid tallent/finisher. If you don't have it, you're not serious. Any rogue, regardless of spec, will gain more overall DPS by using SnD everytime it's necessary to keep it up. With a mutilate build, you generally can easily keep it up and still throw out evis/rupture between every one. With the 2 piece T4 bonus I can actually get 2 4-5 point finishers off between 5 point SnDs.
In any case, there are reason's for rogues to get beaten on damage meters in BC. We have a shadow priest and a warlock that generally are able to top me on the meters for an average gruul fight... despite the fact that even with all the running around from slam/shatter, I still generally do 1000+ dps on those fights with buffs. Epic tailoring gear can be a *****. That being said, if you don't have any affliction locks with 1200+ damage in your kara groups, you might want to rethink your rogues. Any combat variant, including combat mutilate is a very viable raiding spec. Hell, even hemo, 30/0/31, and/or sub based mute builds should be fine for kara if the rogues know how to play their toons.
Since you asked for optimal cycles, I'll answer with this: For mutilate it's generally 4cp+. Basically every time you get 4 (or 5) cp you should be banging out a finisher. There is no shiving or SSing to get a 5th CP if you don't crit (and get an extra point via SF). Standard cycles look like this (after opening) Mute>Mute>SnD>Mute>Mute>Rup/Evis>Mute>Mute>SnD>Mute>Mute>Rup/Evis. Basically, 2 mutes, and a finisher... trying to keep SnD up 100% of the time without just blowing points/energy on it. If they have ruthlessness and it procs... and then they crit mute (giving them 4cp)... it can mean a single mute between finishers. For pure combat build's it's a bit easier. Daggers basically BS to 5cp and then SnD (and if you get a bunch of CP procs maybe throw in a rupture here and there). Sword/fist/mace is generally something like a 3s/5s/5e or 5s/5e cycle where s is slice and dice (at n number of cp) and e is evis (or rupture).
Also note: I could put out about 400 dps easily in mixed MC/BWL epics. If your rogues are really putting out 300 dps... there IS a major problem that they need to work to correct.
Thanks for all your excellent replies. Being a feral druid, I understand using finisher on 4 combo points so that a crit combo point isn't wasted. Just all the spec stuff & which abilities to use is what I needed and you have all covered that fantastically :)
My next step is to examine my recap logs to look at what abilites they are using and then see how I can approach them without pissing them off :) We are a fairly relaxed guild and they are nice guys so i'll make the effort to be diplomatic :)
Unless they read this forums in which case....
Hi guys - hows it going?
/runs & hides
Edited, May 10th 2007 8:21am by RareBeast
My next step is to examine my recap logs to look at what abilites they are using and then see how I can approach them without pissing them off :) We are a fairly relaxed guild and they are nice guys so i'll make the effort to be diplomatic :)
Unless they read this forums in which case....
Hi guys - hows it going?
/runs & hides
Edited, May 10th 2007 8:21am by RareBeast
Recent Visitors: 232
All times are in CST
Anonymous Guests (232)
- Forums
- World of Warcraft
- Class Discussion
- A question from a non-rogue!
© 2024 Fanbyte LLC