I don't use a shot rotation.Follow

Okay...uh...if you're just auto-shotting and throwing in the occasional mend pet, you probably wont go OOM. If you are, maybe you should try an alternate method of fighting. With auto-shot most of the time you wont NEED to take a sip of water, in solo play sometimes I'll auto-shot + surf the web, so I can level while not spending all my energy on grinding. In groups though, I get focused.

And yes, while some players time their shots to the microsecond and others just auto spam, most players fall into the middle. So if you DO auto-spam only, that puts you at the bottom, which is bad. So if the dichotomy is "does the least possible" and "does more than the least possible", which are you going to take?

There's a fine line between elitist and efficient.

Elitist would be yelling at someone because you can do 542 dps and they're only doing 541.

Efficient is yelling at someone for not doing something as simple as keybinding Steady Shot and using it after every autoshot. Or even spamming arcane shot every time it's up, in case actually having to be coordinated with your key presses is too much for your peanut-sized brain.

I feel this all boils down to the player choosing the right spec of hunter for their play style.

If you are going to choose BM or Surv, then you need to be more efficient on your shot selection because your DPS demands you be as efficient as possible- expecially in instances because you can't have your pet out there at all times in instances, sometimes, the pet has to hang back because of combat effects, etc. Knowing how to use the pet is more critical in BM and Surv as well to get the DPS up there with the MM spec.

If you are MM spec then you are expected to learn WHEN to use which shot and TARGET selection becomes more critical. When a crit Autoshot routinely strikes at over 1k then the rotation is less important than controlling the crowd, putting the traps down and running the adds over them with pulls, protecting the casters and making sure the pet is on the right target... shot rotation is probably the last thing on my mind... who cares if I could've done 300 more damaage to a single target if our healer is dead and we wiped because I was worried about when to interrupt my rotation or restarting it.

Frequently my job is to pick off adds from certain bosses or track and pin down patrols that crop up. IMO a well run hunter ADDS to the team by doing all the right jobs, minimizing the fight and controlling the flow. I love it when I can settle down into shot rotation, and I have yet to have a group tell me "You suck because you weren't using shot rotation." I suck when I ***** up the timing or don't watch my teammates and end up letting someone die that I could've saved had I pulled their aggro. If a mage or healer dies, and there is a hunter in the group, then the hunter is a suspect for fault in the death. I sit back near the healers and casters most of the time, I'm their last line of defense.

BTW, I had damage meters up, I turned them off because they were useless to me and too distracting to my job as a Hunter. I feel if you have to outdamage everyone else, then you are spending too much time watching your meters and missing the fight but that is just my opinion. Remember, everyone's primary job is to keep the group alive, no matter what the class.

If you are in love with efficiency, go for that 19 or 29 twink character-it's right up your alley.

True... it's less important than BM but think Surv still needs the pet damage more than MM spec does. I'm MM spec and my pet is really just my tank and auxillary crowd control device. Any damage he does is gravy to me. I do use him to annoy casters though... ^_^

Survival's DPS is based on crits, overall the bonuses to your pet are the same. Less, actually, I think than a marksman unless you count EW.

With GFtT, AP bonuses, etc, marks actually benefits more from the pet than survival IMO.

Edited, May 5th 2007 5:58pm by skribs

The main reason we focused on DPS was because the OP couldn't even manage that. If he's too lazy to do anything but auto-shot, he's obviously too lazy to trap and play like a team member.

And you have a completely scewed version of how tanks work, probably because you've had idiots tanking before, and probably because you go all-out before you should. As a warrior, I could successfully hold aggro on 4 mobs without a problem, this was before allowing TC in defensive stance. Note that this was in Gnomer, and I had to run around to avoid the mines WHILE tanking properly.
I dont have much XP on a druid tank, but against 1-3 targets a druid can tank effectively so long as the AoE dont go crazy. Thats the DPS fault.
And while paladins aren't very good at single-target aggro, a paladin has the best AoE aggro ability and can taunt up to 3 targets from a bigger range than growl or taunt, paladins are the best tanks for groups with mages.
You obviously either are an idiot DPSer or have had idiot tanks, or both. most likely the second.

As far as blame...I put it where it should be. If the hunter made a bad pull, hunters fault. If the healer healed only the tank and didnt keep up the pet which happened to pull a guy off the healer (and so the mob goes back to the healer) then I blame the healer. If the tank is DPSing one mob and wondering why the DPS is pulling off him, I blame the tank. It's not a specific person's fault by default that someone dies, its whoever screwed up.

If the group does things right, the tank shouldn't have a problem holding aggro. The problem is normally on the DPS side, AoEs can happen like crazy once the tank establishes a firm amount of threat.



Being unable to reliably hold aggro basically means you cant hold it, and you did use the word "cant in your post.


Uh...taunt, growl (druid), and righteous defense are GREAT at getting aggro back QUICK. Do you ahve any experience as a tank?



Uh...if you're talking about damage mitigation, no. Druids can only dodge, where paladins and wars can dodge, block, and parry. If you're talking aggro management, no. Warriors and paladins both got more. So idk why you say they got "more options."

Agreed. In most PUG's though, the chances of a group operating at 100% reliability drop dramtically, even my normal instance groups (who usually know better) ***** up and wipe from time to time. I goof up usually once an instance, rarely wipe but a handful of those can be laid at my feet. My comments address the idea that not all groups are perfectly experienced with each other and not all groups have players working at perfection either. The reality versus the theory here.



I'd have to say there's a difference- again in actual combat, between drawing initial aggro and holding it at least in what I see. Even at max aggro, a given tank class can usually have another class aggro the target more. Whether by mistake, stupidity or intentionally, it's generally possible to overcome even max aggro of a tank. My observation is that a Paladin's max aggro seems to be lower than that of a Warrior or even a Druid, thus they have a harder time 'holding' the target in the event of an 'oops'. I don't know how this is coded in the actual program, again, it's just an observation. It's entirely possible the tank player screwed up or a caster or I screwed up. All I know is it seems to happen more often to Paladin tanks than to any other class. Paladin's may be harder to play correctly in practice. I have a Paladin, but haven't played the character in so long that I haven't even re-spec'd it since the last major patch change! >_< <ouch!>



Limited. My Warrior alt is only lvl 30-something and I haven't played him in over a year. I recall successfully tanking in Gnomer and that was a high point if Gnomer anything can be called a high-point. I just mentioned my Paladin but I rarely tanked with the character. I was usually off tank or off healer.



I'm not talking damage mitigation, though some specs for Druid with bear can have more armor than any other spec of any other class- or so I'm lead to believe if I am to believe the rabid Druid fans. Never played one so I can't speak to this directly. Also, Druids have the ability to find the nastiest, slowest weapon in the game and it's stats apply to their attacks in animal form. This and the ability to shift forms based upon what you are fighting seems to make them very versatile as a tank. If you're ripping though targets in ZF you generally don't need to be as tough so cat form works well. If you're taking on that big-bad boss that's going to take a while to kill, bear form is great. At the end of the fight, the Druid generally has mana left and can heal up themselves and everyone else when the healers are drinking until they drown. Makes for a faster group recovery. Also, they have killer buffs. I love Druids in the party, even if they aren't main tank. ^_^

I'm not looking at this from a theoretical perspective, those arguments are nice but in actual play with the variances of players, parties and 'oh crap' moments, theory tends to die quickly. Mostly it's think fast and help out where you can. Thus, like the start of this thread, Shot Rotations are nice when you can put them into practice but I've found this to be the case less than doing the group work thing.

I'm sorry that I might be speaking like a noob (started my hunter from scratch and am now lvl 62 in Outlands), or holding to a different standard than what is practiced by the Hunter Gods. I'm not diefic in any fashion and my comments are directed at other Hunters like me with imperfect play limitations. If you PWN in PvP or Raid, awesome, I bow down and worship at your feet. I just make sure that the groups I'm in are well cared for and it tends to get me invited back... max damage meter or not. If that makes me naieve or a noob or unenlightened, then I guess I suck. I'll keep trying to learn the 'right' way but until I do, I'll have to get by playing my support role.

Sorry about the mess... <flip coin to admin>

Yes, a druid can do more, but as a tank he's a lot more limited. Druids only get a few abilities per form. In cat form, you have less you can do than a rogue can, in bear form less than a warrior in any form. Btw, a warrior can change stances too for more DPS than in defensive...

And if you think pallys are bad at holding aggro, post on the pally forums. That's what their best at. And, I don't think too many people have said a shot rotation is necessary. What a lot of people are saying is to the OP, "If you just do 2 clicks per fight, you're an idiot." Granted, some people don't focus on DPS, but then they should make up for it by using good CC. From the sound of it, this guy does a 2-click fight, which is pretty much playing the class to the least of its ability. A melee hunter who actually uses spells would probably rack up more DPS.