sorry I'm a bit ignorant when it comes to palys, I have never play one myself but I'm very interested in the topic.
I hope you brought your quackulater!! ;)
Lets take 2 players one priest and one paladin both at level 70, both with no gear on and no spent talents points yet.
wowwiki Playable races, class bonuses, Intellect: Priest +2 Paladin +0
Priest: Greater Heal (Rank 7) healing/mana = 3.14
Paladin: Holy Light (Rank 11) healing/mana = 2.763
so from this we can see that the paladin is starting from on the back foot.
Having lower mana, lower crit chance and lower healing efficiency. If the talents are all equal then the priest will win the comparison.
now lets look at some talents...
priest: Holy Specialization, critical chance 5%
paladin: Holy Power, critical chance 5%
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priest: Divine Fury, reduces casting Greater Heal 0.5 sec
paladin: Healing Light, reduce casting Holy Light 0.5 sec
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priest: Mental Strength, Increases your maximum Mana by 10%
paladin: Divine Intellect, Increases your total Intellect by 10%
this will help the paly with some of that missing crit
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priest: Healing Focus, 70% chance to avoid interruption
paladin: Spiritual Focus, 70% chance to avoid interruption
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priest: Spiritual Guidance, Increases healing 25% of total Spirit
paladin: Holy Guidance, Increases healing 35% of total Intellect
I realize that 35 is higher then 25 but if you think about how the priest will have more base spi then the paladin will have base int you can see that the +healing from either will end up about the same
wowwiki Playable races, class bonuses, Spi : Priest +3 Int : Paladin +0
If we think about gear then the Paladin's Int can go way up, but the priest with out any +Spirit Gear is still making some good uses of spiritual guidance becouse of the base stats.
So the priest may wear +Healing gear or whatever.
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priest: Spiritual Healing, Increases healing 10%
paladin: Sanctified Light, Increases crit chance by 6%
critical heals will heal 150%
useing "Holy Light R11: Heals target 2321"
lets say that the paly casts Holy Light 100 times...
2321 * 100 = 232100
Over looking over crit that both the priest and paladin may get, Sanctified Light would make 6 of those casts crit that would not have crit with out it.
2321 (Holy Light) *0.5 = 1160.5 (this is the extra healing from the crit)
1160.5 * 6 (the extra times it has crit) = 6963 (extra healing from Sanctified Light)
232100 + 6963 (Sanctified Light) = 239063
But 6963 is not as high as 10%
232100 *1.1 (Spiritual Healing, priest) = 255310 (if a priest was to do that same healing)
239063 (paladin) is lower then 255310 (priest),
so the paladin loss ground here.
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priest: Improved Healing, Reduces Mana cost of Greater Heal by 15%.
paladin: Illumination, After getting a crit gain Mana equal to the cost.
If the paly can get their healing crit up to 15%, thats 3 in 20 spells, they will be equal to the priest.
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priest: Inner Focus, reduces Mana cost by 100%, increases crit chance 25% 3 min cooldown
paladin: Divine Favor, 3% Base Mana, 100% crit effect chance 2 min cooldown
Think of the paladin combo of 'Divine Favor' + 'Illumination' and now you get...
"every 2 min you get 1 heal that crits costing 3% Base Mana" compare that with Inner Focus...
"every 3 min you get 1 heal that may crit for free".
so now we have '3% Base Mana cost V may crit'.
I think the paly wins this one becouse of the 2 min cooldown.
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priest: Holy Concentration, 6% chance to reduces the mana cost of Greater Heal by 100%
paladin: Divine Illumination, Reduces mana cost of spells 50% for 15 sec 3 min cooldown
Divine Illumination is the same as paying fill price for 165 sec and 50% for 15 sec, right
the same as casting Holy Light at fill price 86.25 times and then casting it for free 3.75 times. with me ;)
looking at this as a percentage you could say that Divine Illumination is giving the paly 4.348 % free healing in the long term where as the priest's Holy Concentration works out to be 6%.
4.348% is less then 6%, the paly loss ground here too.
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so in raids palys win becouse of their pally buffs, right
but what if we are talking about the first pick of the two? do we still go with paly?
Maybe we can say that the paly is the better buffer but we can't say that paly is the better healer,
single or multiple targets.
Priest Build
Raid Buffers: Priest, Improved Fortitude, Improved Divine Spirit, Shadow Protection V I'm sorry, I don't play as paly, can some one help me out here?
Edited, Apr 29th 2007 5:46am by Maxzzzz
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Priest V Paladin math, my findingsFollow
Your methodology is sloppy, because you're trying to compare talents improperly. The proper comparison for Spiritual Healing, for example, is Healing Light, which increases the healing of the only paladin heals that matter by 12%.
I think that your overall policy of trying to directly compare talents misses the big picture-- for example, your discussion of Sanctified Light makes no mention of the mana returned to the paladin as a consequence of his additional crits. Those extra heals he can cast due to mana return are not accounted for.
Finally, the tank will always have Blessing of Light put on them by a paladin, which increases single-target healing efficiency to 3.454. More importantly, it does this for ALL paladins healing that target. And it's not an issue to put Blessing of Light on the tank because he can still get his other buffs from other paladins, whereas each additional priest adds no additional buffs.
You're missing the forest for the trees. While we may have superior AoE healing, paladins blow us out of the water single-target healing and buffing in raids.
I think that your overall policy of trying to directly compare talents misses the big picture-- for example, your discussion of Sanctified Light makes no mention of the mana returned to the paladin as a consequence of his additional crits. Those extra heals he can cast due to mana return are not accounted for.
Finally, the tank will always have Blessing of Light put on them by a paladin, which increases single-target healing efficiency to 3.454. More importantly, it does this for ALL paladins healing that target. And it's not an issue to put Blessing of Light on the tank because he can still get his other buffs from other paladins, whereas each additional priest adds no additional buffs.
You're missing the forest for the trees. While we may have superior AoE healing, paladins blow us out of the water single-target healing and buffing in raids.
An addendum on how paladins work, specifically. The paladin base spammable heal at level 70, Flash of Light, costs a grand total of 180 mana (which, might I add, is a mere 37.5% of the cost of a Flash Heal). The amount healed is not terrific, but +healing and crit gear make the efficiency of this spell astounding. Using your standards of naked characters, a paladin's crit chance stands at 16% from talents and base chance alone. (With gear, buffs, and party auras such as moonkin aura this can increase greatly).
But paladins get much more from their crits than priests do. Priests must get outside of the five-second rule to get regeneration from spirit, which is supposed to be our primary stat. A paladin, conversely, can spam endlessly due to the fact that his method of regenerating mana is based on casting more heals, critting more, and proccing Illumination more. Thus, it is fair to say that a paladin gets approximately 250% healing from his crits, since it boosts the cast heal directly and returns mana for another heal. (This extra heal can itself crit, but at that point the math gets complicated and 250% is hefty enough to be getting along with.)
Admittedly, priest crits can proc Inspiration, which does reduce incoming damage taken and so acts as a sort of heal-by-prevention. But this bonus is not at all comparable to the mana regen from Illumination, especially when taken in context.
So a paladin can spam heals mindlessly for a much longer duration than a priest due to the fact that gear boosts Flash of Light's efficiency through the ceiling and a high crit chance from talents, gear, and buffs greatly increase his regen. But wait, it gets better! Because a paladin expends his mana at a lesser rate, he derives proportionally greater benefits from mana regeneration effects such as Blessing of Wisdom and Vampiric Touch. These effects translate into much more healing for a paladin due to the low base cost of his heals, yet his heals are not as weak in comparison to a priest's because it scales at the same rate as Flash Heal. Doing "naked comparisons" of talents alone often misses this sort of thing.
So you've got your paladin going along, spamming Flash of Light to cover incidental damage. But wait, the tank takes a big hit! Now the paladin casts Holy Light, which has comparable mana cost and healing throughput to Greater Heal, but has a faster base cast that is made even faster if the paladin has cast a Holy Light in the past 15 seconds... and it can STILL crit and become free. By Maxzzzz's numbers, Holy Light actually becomes cheaper than Greater Heal with Improved Healing if the paladin's crit chance is 15%. A paladin's crit chance on healing is 16% from talents alone-- naked, unbuffed.
Yes, Greater Heal will scale marginally better with +healing gear than Holy Light due to the casting time disparity. But this is mitigated by the fact that stacking +crit allows Holy Light to scale quadratically, as it both improves healing throughput and (effectively) reduces the spell's mana cost.
You can't try to compare one talent to another (although it is instructional that, in many of the comparisons, the priest talent will cost five talent points while the paladin equivalent costs three); you miss the big picture. The big picture is that paladins can heal small amounts of damage FAR more efficiently for a far longer time, yet when big hits come they can respond faster, with equivalent throughput, greater efficiency, and more endurance. All that behind plate armor protection while still boasting terrific buffs and utility and class-inherent aggro-reduction.
The only advantage priests have over paladins is area of effect healing. Prayer of Healing is very good, and paladins have no equivalent. However, Prayer has not scaled nearly as fast as stamina and damage have, and so is proportionally weaker than once it was. Holy Nova and Circle of Healing are not even worth discussing.
<><><><>
In the coming patch, paladins are getting nerfed. This is disappointing, as I'd rather see priests get something-- ANYTHING!-- to give us utility, or more endurance, or a boost to our healing somehow. Instead, paladins are getting nerfed... which will put more stress on the priests to pick up the load and further expose our weaknesses.
Edited, Apr 29th 2007 4:39pm by ChahDresh
But paladins get much more from their crits than priests do. Priests must get outside of the five-second rule to get regeneration from spirit, which is supposed to be our primary stat. A paladin, conversely, can spam endlessly due to the fact that his method of regenerating mana is based on casting more heals, critting more, and proccing Illumination more. Thus, it is fair to say that a paladin gets approximately 250% healing from his crits, since it boosts the cast heal directly and returns mana for another heal. (This extra heal can itself crit, but at that point the math gets complicated and 250% is hefty enough to be getting along with.)
Admittedly, priest crits can proc Inspiration, which does reduce incoming damage taken and so acts as a sort of heal-by-prevention. But this bonus is not at all comparable to the mana regen from Illumination, especially when taken in context.
So a paladin can spam heals mindlessly for a much longer duration than a priest due to the fact that gear boosts Flash of Light's efficiency through the ceiling and a high crit chance from talents, gear, and buffs greatly increase his regen. But wait, it gets better! Because a paladin expends his mana at a lesser rate, he derives proportionally greater benefits from mana regeneration effects such as Blessing of Wisdom and Vampiric Touch. These effects translate into much more healing for a paladin due to the low base cost of his heals, yet his heals are not as weak in comparison to a priest's because it scales at the same rate as Flash Heal. Doing "naked comparisons" of talents alone often misses this sort of thing.
So you've got your paladin going along, spamming Flash of Light to cover incidental damage. But wait, the tank takes a big hit! Now the paladin casts Holy Light, which has comparable mana cost and healing throughput to Greater Heal, but has a faster base cast that is made even faster if the paladin has cast a Holy Light in the past 15 seconds... and it can STILL crit and become free. By Maxzzzz's numbers, Holy Light actually becomes cheaper than Greater Heal with Improved Healing if the paladin's crit chance is 15%. A paladin's crit chance on healing is 16% from talents alone-- naked, unbuffed.
Yes, Greater Heal will scale marginally better with +healing gear than Holy Light due to the casting time disparity. But this is mitigated by the fact that stacking +crit allows Holy Light to scale quadratically, as it both improves healing throughput and (effectively) reduces the spell's mana cost.
You can't try to compare one talent to another (although it is instructional that, in many of the comparisons, the priest talent will cost five talent points while the paladin equivalent costs three); you miss the big picture. The big picture is that paladins can heal small amounts of damage FAR more efficiently for a far longer time, yet when big hits come they can respond faster, with equivalent throughput, greater efficiency, and more endurance. All that behind plate armor protection while still boasting terrific buffs and utility and class-inherent aggro-reduction.
The only advantage priests have over paladins is area of effect healing. Prayer of Healing is very good, and paladins have no equivalent. However, Prayer has not scaled nearly as fast as stamina and damage have, and so is proportionally weaker than once it was. Holy Nova and Circle of Healing are not even worth discussing.
<><><><>
In the coming patch, paladins are getting nerfed. This is disappointing, as I'd rather see priests get something-- ANYTHING!-- to give us utility, or more endurance, or a boost to our healing somehow. Instead, paladins are getting nerfed... which will put more stress on the priests to pick up the load and further expose our weaknesses.
Edited, Apr 29th 2007 4:39pm by ChahDresh
but how does it make you feel
Quote:
but how does it make you feel
bad?
When was the last time everyone raided naked?
Pallies scale much better with +crit than priests do.
Pallies scale much better with +crit than priests do.
ChahDresh wrote:
You're missing the forest through the talent trees.
fixed it for you ;) tehe
Flash of Light!? o right! Thanks ChahDresh this has been a good learning curve for me.
I had a look at the sanctified light talent ,which only helps the Holy Light crits and not the Flash Light crits, with that I jumped to the wrong conclusion that palys must be using Holy Light.
Flash of Light R7
180 Mana, 1.5 sec cast
Heals target 448 to 502
healing/mana:
FL 2.64
GH 3.14
Gear:
FL 0.428
GH 0.857
over a time of 60 sec useing the priest's divine fury talent
40 (number of fl cast) *0.428 (benefit from gear) = 17.14
24 (number of gh cast) *0.857 (benefit from gear) = 20.57
man...
the priest benefit from +gear is good ,as is the healing/mana, I think we would be doing ok if blizz had not introduced that scaling penalty, o well.
Thanks for all your help with this ChahDresh.
Edited, Apr 30th 2007 4:15am by Maxzzzz
47 posts
I just want to bring up the gear selection. As a Priest your stuck with Cloth and there is no way around it BUT, a pally can stack +crit to spells from all types of armor IE Plate + X Healing & +10 spell crit strike raiting and he can pick and chose what he wants. So in the end he may only end up with +500 Healing but he is criting 30 % of the time.
So now in the end it's more efficent to have a Priests on MAIN TANKS and a pally takeing care of your RANGED health bars (as they tend to be spread out) and the shaman taking care of your MELEE DPS (as they tend to be tightly packed)
So now in the end it's more efficent to have a Priests on MAIN TANKS and a pally takeing care of your RANGED health bars (as they tend to be spread out) and the shaman taking care of your MELEE DPS (as they tend to be tightly packed)
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