i didnt do it. i just read it, and know it, and love it.
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=91629683&sid=1
summary - armor gain is linear. it does not diminish. as you gain more armor, your stamina scales in effectiveness, and likewise as you gain more stamina, your armor scales in effectiveness.
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Phew! Quite a read. :) Thanks for posting the link.
Makes it seem more worthwile us focusing on AR & Stam seeing Avoidance isn't as achievable for us druids. I figure just make sure you hit the Def Cap (156 Def rating with SotF) then hit up AR & Sta as much as possible (I aim for about 25-30% dodge as well).
Makes it seem more worthwile us focusing on AR & Stam seeing Avoidance isn't as achievable for us druids. I figure just make sure you hit the Def Cap (156 Def rating with SotF) then hit up AR & Sta as much as possible (I aim for about 25-30% dodge as well).
well, dodge comes so easily for druids that it doesnt make sense to avoid it per se, especially with stuff like 35 agi to 2h out there and the greater benefit of stacking multiple stats in terms of stat efficiency over stacking a one or two stats.
but still, the other lessons of the post are pretty important too, even to non-wars and non-druids; armor DOES NOT diminish. i see many clothies and even druids claim that a piece of armor is "useless" because it provides a marginal stat upgrade combined with an armor upgrade. what they fail to realize is that armor is linear; each point of armor is worth as much as the one before it and the one after it. damage reduction is diminishing, and for good reason. the higher % of DR you have, the more each % matters.
to expand on this, assume the following:
you are fighting a monster. this monster attacks at a speed of 1.0 with a damage of 100, aka 100 dps. you have X% damage reduction.
when X = 0%
-the monster must maintain 100 damage per hit in order to deal 100 dps to you.
when X = 25%
-the monster must maintain ~133 damage per hit in order to deal 100 dps to you. this is an increase of ~33% damage.
when X = 50%
-the monster must maintain 200 damage per hit in order to deal 100 dps to you. this is an increase of 100% damage over its original dps, and ~50% increase in damage over the dps it needed at X=25%.
when X = 75%
-the monster must maintain 400 damage per hit in order to deal 100 dps to you. this is an increase of 300% damage over its original DPS, and a 200% increaes in damage over the dps it needed at X=50%.
so by raising your DR by 50%, you force the opponent to increase their dps by 100% over what it would be if you were at 0% DR. if you think your average dagger rogue nets about 600 dps over the course of the initial 12s of a fight, by increasing your armor by 25%, you force that rogue to increase his dps by 200 in order to maintain the same level of damage he had before. thats huge.
and thats also why the DR cap is 75%. any % DR past 75 becomes SO strong that it effectively trivializes encounters. expanding on the above examples:
when X = 90%
-the monster must maintain 1000 damage per hit in order to deal 100 dps to you. this is an increase of 900% damage over its original dps, and 250% increase in damage over the dps it needed at X=75%.
taken to the most extreme:
when X = 99%
-the monster must maintain 10,000 damage per hit in order to deal 100 dps to you. this is an increase of 9900% damage over its orignal dps, and 900% increase in damage over the dps it needed at X=90%.
those last 9% of DR are "worth" more than the first 90 were in terms of damage blocked. just like the 25% gained from 50-75 is worth more than the 25% gained from 25-50. this is why more armor is needed per % as your DR rises. its a soft cap of sorts, with a hard cap at 75%.
and this confuses people. it fools them into thinking that since DR diminishes, then armor must diminish too. but armor doesnt. armor provides a flat increase to time alive, explained nicely in the post i linked originally. this increase in time alive is further compounded by stamina, which is affected most by armor, and in turn affecting armor, creating a system of incredible synergy where the sum is truly greater than the whole of its parts.
moral of the story? every little bit of armor helps when dealing with physical damage.
Edited, Apr 18th 2007 3:31am by Quor
but still, the other lessons of the post are pretty important too, even to non-wars and non-druids; armor DOES NOT diminish. i see many clothies and even druids claim that a piece of armor is "useless" because it provides a marginal stat upgrade combined with an armor upgrade. what they fail to realize is that armor is linear; each point of armor is worth as much as the one before it and the one after it. damage reduction is diminishing, and for good reason. the higher % of DR you have, the more each % matters.
to expand on this, assume the following:
you are fighting a monster. this monster attacks at a speed of 1.0 with a damage of 100, aka 100 dps. you have X% damage reduction.
when X = 0%
-the monster must maintain 100 damage per hit in order to deal 100 dps to you.
when X = 25%
-the monster must maintain ~133 damage per hit in order to deal 100 dps to you. this is an increase of ~33% damage.
when X = 50%
-the monster must maintain 200 damage per hit in order to deal 100 dps to you. this is an increase of 100% damage over its original dps, and ~50% increase in damage over the dps it needed at X=25%.
when X = 75%
-the monster must maintain 400 damage per hit in order to deal 100 dps to you. this is an increase of 300% damage over its original DPS, and a 200% increaes in damage over the dps it needed at X=50%.
so by raising your DR by 50%, you force the opponent to increase their dps by 100% over what it would be if you were at 0% DR. if you think your average dagger rogue nets about 600 dps over the course of the initial 12s of a fight, by increasing your armor by 25%, you force that rogue to increase his dps by 200 in order to maintain the same level of damage he had before. thats huge.
and thats also why the DR cap is 75%. any % DR past 75 becomes SO strong that it effectively trivializes encounters. expanding on the above examples:
when X = 90%
-the monster must maintain 1000 damage per hit in order to deal 100 dps to you. this is an increase of 900% damage over its original dps, and 250% increase in damage over the dps it needed at X=75%.
taken to the most extreme:
when X = 99%
-the monster must maintain 10,000 damage per hit in order to deal 100 dps to you. this is an increase of 9900% damage over its orignal dps, and 900% increase in damage over the dps it needed at X=90%.
those last 9% of DR are "worth" more than the first 90 were in terms of damage blocked. just like the 25% gained from 50-75 is worth more than the 25% gained from 25-50. this is why more armor is needed per % as your DR rises. its a soft cap of sorts, with a hard cap at 75%.
and this confuses people. it fools them into thinking that since DR diminishes, then armor must diminish too. but armor doesnt. armor provides a flat increase to time alive, explained nicely in the post i linked originally. this increase in time alive is further compounded by stamina, which is affected most by armor, and in turn affecting armor, creating a system of incredible synergy where the sum is truly greater than the whole of its parts.
moral of the story? every little bit of armor helps when dealing with physical damage.
Edited, Apr 18th 2007 3:31am by Quor
Very, VERY good to know. I've seen a few charts of the "diminishing" returns of armor and how it eventually caps damage-mitigation-wise. Really wouldn't have thought it actually kept being as useful in terms of survivability.
Haven't had time to read through the whole thing, but so far so good.
Thanks for the link! :D
Haven't had time to read through the whole thing, but so far so good.
Thanks for the link! :D
My Druid (66) has reached a point where he's wearing some pretty good gear (lots of agi/str/sta/crit), but his armor in Bear form is only 7700+ which is almost less than a Hunter's pet at that level.
Anyone know some item enchants/kits that increase armor? I'm afraid of gathering +armor trinkets mainly because most of them are Azeroth stuff and Outland stuff is so sweet in comparison.
Should I just grind for the [wowitem=29171]Earthwarden[/wowitem] and use that one for tanking? I love my [wowitem=25761]Staff of Beasts[/wowitem] for soloing.
Anyone know some item enchants/kits that increase armor? I'm afraid of gathering +armor trinkets mainly because most of them are Azeroth stuff and Outland stuff is so sweet in comparison.
Should I just grind for the [wowitem=29171]Earthwarden[/wowitem] and use that one for tanking? I love my [wowitem=25761]Staff of Beasts[/wowitem] for soloing.
Please "talk up" if your comprehension white-shifts. I will use simple-happy language-words to help you understand.
There are several important ideas mentioned in that post and some of the followup comments, both on the topic of damage mitigation/avoidance and of broader application in how to think about many talents.
On the subject of armor and avoidance, it is important to realize how the dual effects of diminishing damage reduction per armor point and increasing utility per damage reduction result in roughly linear utility per armor point. (NB: it appears that this is not exactly linear, but it's close enough, up to the cap, to think about it that way.) But it is also important, as commenters in that thread note, to realize how other defensive attributes share these properties. Dodge, parry, and block also have increasing utility per (percentage) point. And one can indeed lower one's average rate of damage taken (or, put another way, increase one's effective health) with extra avoidance, sometimes more effectively than with extra armor & health.
The essential issue in choosing between the two is variance. Having all one's defensive value in armor produces a constant rate of damage taken. Defenses like dodge result in spikes. Constant rates generally make healers' work easier. In a fight where one's expected value is negative (you'll lose if everybody does what they're capable of doing over a sufficiently large sample), increase variance and hope for the best. If you can reasonably expect to win, decrease variance. But in any case, think about both variance and expected value. This holds of many activities in life.
I've commented in other threads about choosing among talents on the increasing utility of fixed damage (or cost) reduction and decreasing utility of fixed damage increases. Advice like "this talent is all or nothing" is frequently misguided, especially in regard to damage increases when the advice is, "a 10% increase is a big deal, but you won't notice 2%". When it's 2% per point, each additional point is worth (very slightly) less than the previous, and just taking a few may well be reasonable. Talents like Ferocity and Natural Shapeshifter get even better (and, in those cases, significantly so) with each additional point. Frost mages' Improved Blizzard (30% - 50% - 65% speed reduction) is one where the utility per point actually is roughly linear.
On the subject of armor and avoidance, it is important to realize how the dual effects of diminishing damage reduction per armor point and increasing utility per damage reduction result in roughly linear utility per armor point. (NB: it appears that this is not exactly linear, but it's close enough, up to the cap, to think about it that way.) But it is also important, as commenters in that thread note, to realize how other defensive attributes share these properties. Dodge, parry, and block also have increasing utility per (percentage) point. And one can indeed lower one's average rate of damage taken (or, put another way, increase one's effective health) with extra avoidance, sometimes more effectively than with extra armor & health.
The essential issue in choosing between the two is variance. Having all one's defensive value in armor produces a constant rate of damage taken. Defenses like dodge result in spikes. Constant rates generally make healers' work easier. In a fight where one's expected value is negative (you'll lose if everybody does what they're capable of doing over a sufficiently large sample), increase variance and hope for the best. If you can reasonably expect to win, decrease variance. But in any case, think about both variance and expected value. This holds of many activities in life.
I've commented in other threads about choosing among talents on the increasing utility of fixed damage (or cost) reduction and decreasing utility of fixed damage increases. Advice like "this talent is all or nothing" is frequently misguided, especially in regard to damage increases when the advice is, "a 10% increase is a big deal, but you won't notice 2%". When it's 2% per point, each additional point is worth (very slightly) less than the previous, and just taking a few may well be reasonable. Talents like Ferocity and Natural Shapeshifter get even better (and, in those cases, significantly so) with each additional point. Frost mages' Improved Blizzard (30% - 50% - 65% speed reduction) is one where the utility per point actually is roughly linear.
Enchants and kits are useless in terms of increasing your armor, they don't get multiplied in bear form.
Heavy Clefthoof set is getting their armor bumped up in the next patch. Other than that, it's a mix of quest rewards (Manimal's Cinch, Verdant Glove, Umberhowl Collar) and drops from instances.
Heavy Clefthoof set is getting their armor bumped up in the next patch. Other than that, it's a mix of quest rewards (Manimal's Cinch, Verdant Glove, Umberhowl Collar) and drops from instances.
honestly maz, the best druid tank trinkets are still azeroth stuff, specifically the mark of tyranny and the smoking heart of the mountain. im not saying lvl enchanting to get a heart, but the mark at least is a nice boost to armor.
for weapons, snagging an unyielding maul from DM north aint a bad idea....finding people to run DM north is the problem tho.
the best thing you can do outlands-wise is run hellfire ramparts for the armor/resil/stam ring. mok'nathal clan ring i think its called. 180 armor on a ring is sweet. the darrowshire quest line in azeroth, altho technically "old" in a sense, is still an awesome quest line with good rewards, including a 150 armor/7 stam ring.
make sure you have the jerkin of untamed spirit from the hellfire quest (i forget which one). its the best tanking piece pre-tier 4 in outlands.
trying to snag some clefthoof armor pieces is a good idea too, as theyre loaded with armor, stam, and def.
for weapons, snagging an unyielding maul from DM north aint a bad idea....finding people to run DM north is the problem tho.
the best thing you can do outlands-wise is run hellfire ramparts for the armor/resil/stam ring. mok'nathal clan ring i think its called. 180 armor on a ring is sweet. the darrowshire quest line in azeroth, altho technically "old" in a sense, is still an awesome quest line with good rewards, including a 150 armor/7 stam ring.
make sure you have the jerkin of untamed spirit from the hellfire quest (i forget which one). its the best tanking piece pre-tier 4 in outlands.
trying to snag some clefthoof armor pieces is a good idea too, as theyre loaded with armor, stam, and def.
There is a fantastic ring that drops off the 1st boss in Old Hillsbrad - i'm still trying to get it :(
Once you are 70, the Thoriumweave cloak in Mechanar currently has 319 AR (real nice) but is getting buffed in the next patch to 390!!
Add in the 3 pieces of the Heavy Clefthoof Set, and your armor will be very nice :) (plus the quest rewards previously mentioned.
For druids, avoidance is good, but we are particularly vulnerable to crushing blows compared to Warriors. For this reason, we have a greater need for the extra stam/armor compared to avoidance. A couple of crushing blows in a row is a much more likely occurrence for us than for them, and we need to be able to take the hits and keep going. :)
Once you are 70, the Thoriumweave cloak in Mechanar currently has 319 AR (real nice) but is getting buffed in the next patch to 390!!
Add in the 3 pieces of the Heavy Clefthoof Set, and your armor will be very nice :) (plus the quest rewards previously mentioned.
For druids, avoidance is good, but we are particularly vulnerable to crushing blows compared to Warriors. For this reason, we have a greater need for the extra stam/armor compared to avoidance. A couple of crushing blows in a row is a much more likely occurrence for us than for them, and we need to be able to take the hits and keep going. :)
I'll admit that I didn't choose to dig through the full extent of the math (normally something I love, but I'll be damned if I'm going to do calculus now) but... is this really true?
50% Mitigation means you take half the damage of someone at 0% Mitigation. 75% means you take half the damage of someone at 50% Mitigation, correct? Using the numbers for mitigation versus L73...
X
---------- = .5; x = 11960
X + 11960
x
---------- = .75; x = 35880
x + 11960
In order to cut your damage in half from 0% mitigation to 50% mitigation you need 11,960 armor. In order to halve it again you'll need to acquire three times as much armor (or rather, it takes twice as much armor from 0->50 as it does from 50->75). How can the gains be linear, then?
50% Mitigation means you take half the damage of someone at 0% Mitigation. 75% means you take half the damage of someone at 50% Mitigation, correct? Using the numbers for mitigation versus L73...
X
---------- = .5; x = 11960
X + 11960
x
---------- = .75; x = 35880
x + 11960
In order to cut your damage in half from 0% mitigation to 50% mitigation you need 11,960 armor. In order to halve it again you'll need to acquire three times as much armor (or rather, it takes twice as much armor from 0->50 as it does from 50->75). How can the gains be linear, then?
I can't reproduce the maths easily myself, but I have seen this shown many times in various posts. If you look at it from the point of view of "time to live", every 1k armor increase this time by a set amount.
I just found some links to the mats involved - it's ove my head :)
Mitigation, Armour, Diminishing Returns
The Mathematics of Armour and Diminishing Returns
The HTML is stuffed up on my PC, but it is still readable.
I still don't understand how this would work if you got up to or past the armor cap.
I just found some links to the mats involved - it's ove my head :)
Mitigation, Armour, Diminishing Returns
The Mathematics of Armour and Diminishing Returns
The HTML is stuffed up on my PC, but it is still readable.
I still don't understand how this would work if you got up to or past the armor cap.
Quor wrote:
honestly maz, the best druid tank trinkets are still azeroth stuff, specifically the mark of tyranny and the smoking heart of the mountain. im not saying lvl enchanting to get a heart, but the mark at least is a nice boost to armor.
If you're like me and got your armor trinkets hacked I can recommend the Timelapse Shard (Keepers of Time exalted). 25 stamina, 23 resilience, and as an added bonus you can fade the mob off onto your mages!
But seriously, just don't click the thing while tanking.
I'm also looking to grab the Argussian Compass from heroic Underbog. Again, good stamina and an on-use armor thingy. I need to find out if it actually counts as a block (and thus stops crushing blows for the duration).
Argussian Compass works like a Power Word: Shield that only absorbs 68 damage on every attack.
It's... okay. Not great by any means. The primary attraction would be the STA, and there are other ways to get that on a trinket
It's... okay. Not great by any means. The primary attraction would be the STA, and there are other ways to get that on a trinket
RPZip wrote:
Argussian Compass works like a Power Word: Shield that only absorbs 68 damage on every attack.
It's... okay. Not great by any means. The primary attraction would be the STA, and there are other ways to get that on a trinket
It's... okay. Not great by any means. The primary attraction would be the STA, and there are other ways to get that on a trinket
That aren't an engineering trinket?
Come next patch there's like four or five rep ones that give +45 STA (Consortium + Ogri'la + Netherwing + Skywing).
Quote:
How can the gains be linear, then?
i know it looks like it isnt, but as noted above, the estimated time alive increase is a linear one based on armor. each point of armor (or 100 points, or 1000 points) is as powerful as the 1/100/1000 before it and after it. for each X armor, your estimate time alive increase by Y.
now, the damage reduction percentage diminishes, but this is because as you gain more DR each % becomes stronger than the one before it. on the one hand you see 25-50% DR as a decrease of an additional 25% damage, but the flipside of it is that extra 25% DR forces a damage increase of over 50% over what it would need to deal X DPS to a target at 25% DR.
so essentially a 25% increase in DR from 25% to 50% results in a 50% increase in damage output needed to match old DPS levels (namely the ones at 25%). furthermore, a 25% increase from 50% to 75% results in a 250% increase in DPS needed to match old DPS levels (the ones at 50% in this case).
Hmm...
Mob Raw Damage - 1,000
Attack Speed - 1.0
Avoidance% - 0%
Player HP - 10,000
0 Armor - 0% Mitigation
Mob Hit: 1000 * (1-0%) = 1000
10,000 / 1000 = 10
10 sec for mob to kill player
11960 Armor - 50% Mitigation
Mob Hit: 1000 * (1-50%) = 500
10,000 / 500 = 20
20 sec for mob to kill player
23920 Armor - 66% Mitigation
Mob Hit: 1000 * (1-66%) = 330
10,000 / 330 = 30
30 sec for mob to kill player
35880 Armor - 75% Mitigation
Mob Hit: 1000 * (1-75%) = 250
10,000 / 250 = 40
40 sec for mob to kill player
Yep, get it now. -_- This is why I shouldn't try to understand math when drunk.
Mob Raw Damage - 1,000
Attack Speed - 1.0
Avoidance% - 0%
Player HP - 10,000
0 Armor - 0% Mitigation
Mob Hit: 1000 * (1-0%) = 1000
10,000 / 1000 = 10
10 sec for mob to kill player
11960 Armor - 50% Mitigation
Mob Hit: 1000 * (1-50%) = 500
10,000 / 500 = 20
20 sec for mob to kill player
23920 Armor - 66% Mitigation
Mob Hit: 1000 * (1-66%) = 330
10,000 / 330 = 30
30 sec for mob to kill player
35880 Armor - 75% Mitigation
Mob Hit: 1000 * (1-75%) = 250
10,000 / 250 = 40
40 sec for mob to kill player
Yep, get it now. -_- This is why I shouldn't try to understand math when drunk.
drunken mathematics ftw. i got ten bucks thats how someone came up with -i in the first place.
"dude, dude...check it out....what if....we took the square root....OF A NEGATIVE!"
"NO WAI! U R IMBA!"
"dude, dude...check it out....what if....we took the square root....OF A NEGATIVE!"
"NO WAI! U R IMBA!"
Just building my druid and this was extremely helpful info. My bear is dancing with appreciation for all the people who took the time to explain the math on this;-)
Once you have sufficiently good gear (15k or more HP raid buffed, over 20k armor), agility is pound for pound your best friend. More crit is more threat, more dodge is less damage. Druids get a ridiculous amount of dodge per agility. Crushes be damned, as long as you can survive two in a row, go all out dodge. For most bosses 2 crushes is 10k damage tops. Maulgar is an exception and really a warrior is the best maulgar tank ATM anyhow for this reason.
Quor wrote:
make sure you have the jerkin of untamed spirit from the hellfire quest (i forget which one). its the best tanking piece pre-tier 4 in outlands.
Oh.. crap..
Please "talk up" if your comprehension white-shifts. I will use simple-happy language-words to help you understand.
Is that the one at the end of the quest chain starting with the wanted poster?
Mazra wrote:
Quor wrote:
make sure you have the jerkin of untamed spirit from the hellfire quest (i forget which one). its the best tanking piece pre-tier 4 in outlands.
Oh.. crap..
Chestguard of the Talon is a decent substitute. After the patch the Heavy Clefthoof Vest will have even more armor, so that'll be a good choice too.
highRfrequenC wrote:
Is that the one at the end of the quest chain starting with the wanted poster?
It's the one where you burn the towers of the orc camp in Hellfire Peninsula.
[wowitem=28051]Jerkin of the Untamed Spirit.[/wowitem]
I ditched mine when I got [wowitem=25838]Warden's Hauberk[/wowitem].
Edited, May 11th 2007 12:36am by Mazra
Please "talk up" if your comprehension white-shifts. I will use simple-happy language-words to help you understand.
Mazra wrote:
highRfrequenC wrote:
Is that the one at the end of the quest chain starting with the wanted poster?
It's the one where you burn the towers of the orc camp in Hellfire Peninsula.
[wowitem=28051]Jerkin of the Untamed Spirit.[/wowitem]
I ditched mine when I got [wowitem=25838]Warden's Hauberk[/wowitem].
[/i]
On the real player side of the faction line we have to do a four part quest chain apparently. I did every horde quest I found in Hellfire except that one. Should be a cake walk at 65 though I guess.
Thanks for the heads up on that and sorry for the hijack.
How is Jerkin of the Untamed Spirit the best tank piece?
It's a great piece for a long while, I won't deny that, and sure it's got the highest armor of just about any leather chest pre-epix, but Heavy Clefthoof Vest has 3 sockets, a buttload of Stamina, and a nice chunk of Defense rating as well...how is that not a good thing?
It's a great piece for a long while, I won't deny that, and sure it's got the highest armor of just about any leather chest pre-epix, but Heavy Clefthoof Vest has 3 sockets, a buttload of Stamina, and a nice chunk of Defense rating as well...how is that not a good thing?
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